Rifleman's Boot Camp - How many would be interested?

[hornblower]

This was posted as a GO! on July 19.

It is now August 14.

Are there any updates, further information, sign-up procedure, etc.?

Thank you.

[ItsanSKS]

MAJOR UPDATES.  PLEASE RE-READ FIRST POST IN THIS THREAD. 

[franklinfarmer]

ItsanSKS,

Many thanks for your efforts on this.  I hope it works out for the preferable venue.  I'm planning to be there.  (Whether I qualify as a serious person is another question.)

Best,
FF

[hornblower]

ItsanSKS

This new venue sounds great.

Put me in for the Lodge.

I'll send whatever money is required as soon as you tell me how much that will be.

Thanks for all of your work on this.

It is truly appreciated.

Best regards,

Dave

[marrandy]

Get that puppy signed, sealed and delivered.

Is there a website for the site and lodge etc.

Much appreciated Eric.

Regards and best wishes...Martin

MAJOR UPDATES.  PLEASE RE-READ FIRST POST IN THIS THREAD. 

[ItsanSKS]

This venue currently has only a Facebook page, though they are working on a real-for-real website.  (problems with domain names/copyright stuff)  Here's the link: http://www.facebook.com/rockycreekranch

I'm looking at meeting with Chris (the facility manager/co-owner) sometime this upcoming week, and will be walking away with the full details, or I won't be walking away...  Need to get this baby ON THE BOOKS.

How about a Saturday evening Wild Boar Roast, or catered lunches?  Scenery that looks like it has been untouched by humans for centuries... The place is amazing... You'll get a chance to see it for yourself soon enough.

[marrandy]

Moving on from the success of this shoot.  For many people, 6-days is too long and expensive.

We (you know that's going to Eric) had better start planning 1 or 2 day long distance shoots to build on for established 25 yard  'rifleman'.  

You know what I mean.

1)  Known distance 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600 etc. yards

2)  Unknown distance - you have to train how to figure it out

3)  Shooting up and down  (angle changes things).

4)  Adjusting for different ammo.

5)  Adjusting for different rifles.

6)  Wind, temperature, humidity.

7)  Moving targets.

 Move and shoot.  ie. exercise before you hit the line.  

9)  Timed events after basic static events for fun

10)  Team events (ie. shooter and spotter).

yada..yada..yada.

Arn't dreams fun !!!

[Heimdhal]

Moving on from the success of this shoot.  For many people, 6-days is too long and expensive.

We (you know that's going to Eric) had better start planning 1 or 2 day long distance shoots to build on for established 25 yard  'rifleman'.  

You know what I mean.

1)  Known distance 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600 etc. yards

2)  Unknown distance - you have to train how to figure it out

3)  Shooting up and down  (angle changes things).

4)  Adjusting for different ammo.

5)  Adjusting for different rifles.

6)  Wind, temperature, humidity.

7)  Moving targets.

 Move and shoot.  ie. exercise before you hit the line.  

9)  Timed events after basic static events for fun

10)  Team events (ie. shooter and spotter).

yada..yada..yada.

Arn't dreams fun !!!

I think you bring up a good point and one worth exploring.  I know there are quite a few people willing to attend a full week RBC and it would likley be very full, but there are alost lots out there that cant and could benefit from a shorter version like you mention.

I know for me theres no way I could do a RBC in december this year as I just started a new job (for VERY little pay) and it would be tough to get a full week off and afford gas, lodging, good and .30 cal ammo for a full week of shooting. 

Ive talked to a few appleseeders and soon to be appleseeders and these are common concerns among them all.  Offering a KD, long distance shoot that was perhaps a step up from the 25 yard AQT weekend would be a fantastic idea and would probably help retain alot of appleseeders that want to take their shooting to a new level.

[marrandy]

Ive talked to a few appleseeders and soon to be appleseeders and these are common concerns among them all.  Offering a KD, long distance shoot that was perhaps a step up from the 25 yard AQT weekend would be a fantastic idea and would probably help retain alot of appleseeders that want to take their shooting to a new level.

Yep.  Appleseed is on a roll.  

I'm pretty much committed to spending the money, I don't really have, to going.  Sometimes, you just have to make a decision and hope for the best.  On the positive side, my wife (who is a real peach), has said go.  (God I love her so much).  I guess this will be a Christmas present to myself, and from my wife.

Innovation and variety is the key.

What do you do to tempt  'Rifleman'  back who don't want to instruct and having done a second Appleseed and got the  'Rifleman'   Again.

A more advanced Appleseed ofcourse.

I think the basic Appleseed is a base.  It get's people started and to the level.  We all know about the  'getting people off the couch and involved'.  

But the Appleseed and Rifleman is about a challenge.  People that have met the challenge, aka Rifleman, want another challenge.  FD (Full Distance) plus other great stuff.

I realize the focus is on more ranges, more people through the system.  But let's not forget the people that have attended.

Were they happy.  If they didn't get their  'Rifleman'   -   why did they NOT come back.  

If they got the Rifleman   -   why didn't they become IIT's.

If they got the Rifleman   -   Didn't want to be IIT's.  Are they lost ?  Or would a longer distance aka Advanced Appleseed, bring them back into the fold.

People that don't come back often have had a bad experience.  Didn't get it.  Perhaps, bad instructing.  Who knows unless we actually take the time to ask, and follow-up.  They may also  'bad mouth'  Appleseed, putting friends and other forums off.

As an organization, we can only be pro-active, and get to the bottom of issues and fix them and learn as we go.  But we have to try.  Not just let people fall through the cracks.

I think we definetely need an 2-day Advanced Appleseed.

The RBC seems to be both long distance and instructor training.  Take the instructor training out, I don't see why a 2-day long distance shooting wouldn't work.  FireHose  -  Yes.  As is the basic Appleseed.  Isn't that already what the military  teaches condensed into 2-days.

I know we can do it with the dedication and drive of our great Florida team.  There is nothing that we cannot do, if we set our minds, and our hearts, to it.

How many a year.  Depends on demand.  One at least.  No more than Four.  Why max. Four ?  We can't detract from the basic mission.  The focus is numbers.  Getting people involved.  We need fully qualified instructors.  We need IIT's.  Its a delicate balancing act.  But we can overcome, with the will, the drive, the people.  Anything is possible.

[Heimdhal]

I cant argue you with you one pit Marrandy; I fully agree.


Appleseed does see what we would consider an attrition rate that is too high.  I think it may be part of the reason that we are seeing a slight pull back in growth this year as opposed to those past.

A weekend long full distance, or even half distance shoot would bring back all those people that qualed Rifleman and give those that havent an even bigger incentive to do so.  Right now their choices are "become IIT's or keep doing 25 meter and wait for a week long full distance".

I would even venture to say that a 1-200 yard KD shoot would bring alot of shooters in and pique interest.  THat would keep us from having to limit the ranges we use (since not all are actualy 500 yards) and would give rifleman some good distance shooting skills.

I would almost gah-run-tee you would see alot rifleman very interested in attending these KD Appleseed weekends and not only that but returning more readily to achived their KD Rifleman patch (doesnt have to be a different patch or anything, but it would mean a lot of difference to the shooter that got it).

[marrandy]

This venue currently has only a Facebook page, though they are working on a real-for-real website.  (problems with domain names/copyright stuff)  Here's the link: http://www.facebook.com/rockycreekranch

Do you have an address/exact location ?

Nothing on the facebook page.

[9mm4545]

This looks like an excellent location and I am definitely on for it. Sign-up information coming soon? How about sooner?

I also believe that the key to the continued success of Appleseed is the concept of continuous product improvement. Not just refining the basic program but also offering new ideas such as a 2 day advanced program and KD clinics. Of course the biggest challenge will be sufficient instructors to man them which is where we get back to our basics. The more I think about it, the more impressed I am with the premise of Appleseed: offer a fun, family friendly event with a measurable challenge, coupled with informative, entertaining and emotionally charged storytelling to motivate and inspire others. Genius!

[AdobeWalls]

ItsanSKS,

Went back to the edited initial post on this thread and read it all, and understand the situation.  Thank you for looking out for Appleseed. There isn't anything about Appleseed that is disappointing.  We all admire you for tenacity and also fine improvisation skills!
I think most shooters, experienced or green like me, will be quite overjoyed to attend an RBC just about anywhere in Florida, and think you're doing a fine job to make this available to the maximum number of people.  I'm on that track, and will put in fees promptly, as I'm reading this page at least weekly.  Thanks for the extra effort.

Richard, AdobeWallsOfFla

[AdobeWalls]

If I may comment on the proposals re short KD courses, half-disance courses, and so on.  In Nerd World, I'm counsel to several kinds of emergency planners.  I often find it brain-numbing, but I have to admit they do a really good job of covering things from beginning to end, and also do an excellent job of step by step planning.  No steep on-ramps for the planners.

I bet a lot of new Appleseed shooters don't own long distance rifles, or feel what they've got isn't what's needed.  I first met
Appleseed Project in March 2010.  Attended 1.5 shoots, and I'm not certain if what I own is suitable (a bolt .30-06 scoped Ruger), it's a hunting rifle, never thought of using it for anything else.  Hunters tend to accommodate wind drift and long range with lead and holdover, not sight adjustment. The move from a .22 trainer to a centerfire infantry rifle is manageable, but it's a fair sized move, magnified by recession and growing economic uncertainty for many.  So with my vast experience -- it's OK, I can't hear people laughing anyway -- I would guess that shorter, more challenging events would cement shooters in the program.  In my case, two days training was barely enough time.  I didn't really get things down.  It helped a terrific amount to take one additional day at another event.  I actually understood some things I missed before, no reflection on instructors, who were doing a fine job.

Ditto on instructing, same mechanisms at work, big move for a lot of people.  Or big commitment.

And besides, when any organization has an expansion drive, it always has a higher flake-out rate.  Non-returns are people who tried, but they're just not quite in yet.  All the above would tend to draw them back again IMPO.

There, that's worth two cents . . .

Richard, AdobeWallsOfFla

[marrandy]

Attended 1.5 shoots, and I'm not certain if what I own is suitable (a bolt .30-06 scoped Ruger)

...

In my case, two days training was barely enough time.

Pretty much any centerfire rifle will shoot to 600 yards.  Calibers above .223/5.56mm shoot out to a 1,000.

Its all down to demand and resources.  Demand, obviously people have to fill the course. Be it 1 (every 12-months), 2 (every 6-months), 3 (every 4 months) or 4 (every 3-months). Resources is obviously instructors to man it.

Even the AR15 will get out to beyond 600 yards in trained hands,  This guy has shot a custom bolt .223/5.56mm out to 1,760 yards   http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/shooting-223-mile-1.php

Remember the goal of Appleseed in the shooting area, is iron sights hitting a 20" target at 500 yards.  That is what your 4MOA aka 1" at 25 yards is about and the AQT.

With 412 people shooting last year, a simple 5% interested would be 20 people.  Good enough for one event.

No one is forced to progress.  Its all voluntary.  But some of us want to validate our 25 yard Appleseed shooting to the FD (Full Distance) of 500 yards.

I'm hoping the  "Rocky Creek Range'  works out.  I want to go.  My wife has no problems with me going.  I'm just waiting for event registration to appear online.

I just understand and appreciate that 6 days is time and money many people can't afford.  Instead of $340 for 6 days, a 2-day event would be about $120.  Significantly more affordable.
 
But each to their own.

YMMV.

Oh, Ref your  "In my case, two days training was barely enough time."

Appleseed condenses 5-days training into 2-days.  Its called the firehose.  Ask any instructors how many Appleseeds it took to get 210+ consistently.

[Heimdhal]

I think even a 100 or 200 yard KD would be nice.  I know that at myakka they usualy ask if anyone wants to try for the 100 yard, but thats generaly 3-4 people out of 20+.  Its a good thing though and it really helps those that do it.  Many are shy and want more range time before they attempt it, and thats fine too but the ones that do it always come back with a great appreciation for a non simulated distance shot and the factors that come into play (like bullet drop, etc).

100 yards is well within the abilities of even a .22 LR.

Im even for people just getting together with AQT's and the like and doing it on their own, but its hard to organize random shoots like that and I think having an appleseed level of organization and officials instructers out there would really open it up for alot of people to step and and begin shooting distance.  It would also likley be smaller groups, at first anyways, which would mean a possibly slower pace and more time with experienced instructers since it would be open to Riflemen only, there wouldnt be as much pressure to stuff 5 days of instruction into 2 days.  They've already got their patch, this is just helping them take another step between a 2 day and a 6 day boot camp.

[bill o rites]

 i agree i think a 2 day advanced would draw rifleman to the challenge

[ItsanSKS]

offering new ideas such as a 2 day advanced program and KD clinics.

We already offer these. 

Two-day advanced marksmanship clinics are regularly scheduled for Instructors and interested Instructors-In-Training.   Two days is barely enough time to cover the 'pertinent' information, and while there is a shared emphasis on being able to teach it, there isn't a whole lot of time spent on that subject, compared to what is done at an IBC.

We also offer the Rifleman Boot Camp, which allows shooters of any skill level to learn and practice the fundamentals of full-distance shooting, at actual distance.  Shooters must still progress through the fundamentals at 25m before being taken to full distance, however. 

The reason that we only offer the two-day advanced marksmanship classes to Instructors is three-fold:

• Our instructors MUST have a working knowledge of the requirements and subtleties of Known Distance shooting, in order to excel at instructing.
• Provide an incentive for 25m 'rimfire' Riflemen to step up to the challenge of becoming an IIT, joining the 'big boy club'
• With the time constraints we face for a two-day class, it behooves us to ensure that those attending have a proven knowledge of the fundamentals.  We simply cannot take the time out of the day for remedial courses on Six Steps or NPOA.

If you have already proven your skills 'at distance' and are asking yourself "Whats Next?", the obvious answer is competition.  The NRA offers many levels of competitive shooting, some at actual distance, others at reduced-range/reduced targets.  If you have truly mastered the Six Steps, & NPOA, you WILL be competitive.   

While Appleseed does indeed offer a most impressive marksmanship class, I feel I must remind you all of our greater purpose: Restoring this Nation to the ideals upon which it was founded; and more to the point, waking our fellow Americans up to the crises Liberty and Freedom is facing, and getting our fellow Americans active and involved..  To this point, we have determined that adding further 'levels' of marksmanship instruction does not, in a significant way, add to this mission.

Would I like to offer every Rifleman an opportunity to learn at "actual distance"?  Hell Yes!  Can we do that, without taking away from the main thrust of the program?  Not at this time.  Perhaps in the future, when we start to see Riflemen getting sworn in to public office... 

[jollynator]

Perhaps in the future, when we start to see Riflemen getting sworn in to public office... 

Georgia is working on that.  John Monds, Libertarian candidate for Governor attended an AS this past March in Hawkinsville.  Meister and I worked with him.  He is a good shot and a good guy.

Finally, Georgia has something on the Florida tribe....

the other Jolly

[marrandy]

The week is almost up.

How's it coming ?

This venue currently has only a Facebook page, though they are working on a real-for-real website.  (problems with domain names/copyright stuff)  Here's the link: http://www.facebook.com/rockycreekranch

I'm looking at meeting with Chris (the facility manager/co-owner) sometime this upcoming week, and will be walking away with the full details, or I won't be walking away...  Need to get this baby ON THE BOOKS.

How about a Saturday evening Wild Boar Roast, or catered lunches?  Scenery that looks like it has been untouched by humans for centuries... The place is amazing... You'll get a chance to see it for yourself soon enough.

[PHenry]

As ItsanSKS is working (so am I, but have PC access), I will update. 'SKS and I went out to meet with the owner of Rocky Creek and his son last evening after work. They are some great people and the lodge is spectacular. I mean truly amazing.

So far as I can tell, this will be the nicest RBC venue in the history of the program. Even the NRA Whittington Center doesn't boast accoms like this place. The lodge proper has 8 beds / 5 baths, and there are four more beds and a bath in a room off the cavernous barn. Both the lodge and the barn are made from rough hewn logs (then polished) taken from the 1500 acre property (no that is not a misprint), and we cut and placed by the father and son about 7 years ago.

There is also a large camping area with a big covered shelter with power and another bathroom. We are working out the rates now and it looks very promising. They will likely be offering several "packages" to accommodate any budget. There will be a meal plan / three squares, plus snacks (tentative price $30/day). Beds inside the lodge - 2 to a room (tentative price $75/person). Beds inside the room off the barn - four to a room (tentative price $35/person).

There are of course hotels and a public campground in the area, but they are a good 40 minutes away and will cost nearly as much as anything at the lodge - so why bother?

This place is amazing and our prospective hosts are multi-generational residents of the area with many stories to tell. They are both very interested in paring with Appleseeds and are willing to work hard to make this RBC the best one in Appleseeds storied history.

'SKS and I came away with a great sense of excitement from our meeting (and no, it weren't just the fresh cornbread and home-made chicken stew over rice that did it) and will work out the details ASAP, so that we can get busy lining up the roster of instructors and attendees who will enjoy the opportunity that this event will provide.

I warned the owners that they may have to evict me when the RBC is over. 

[hornblower]

That sounds great!

Please put me down for the full plan, i.e. 3 meals/day and room for two in the lodge.

I can't wait.

Let me know how, when and where to send my payment.

All of your efforts are greatly appreciated.

By the way, where is this located?

What is the address?

I tried the previously mentioned link, but I was unable to find anything.

Thank you again.

Dave

[PHenry]

HB,
It's east of Manatee Gun club, off same road. Not too hard to find, but it takes a while to git from the mailbox to the front door - my kinda place.

'SKS and I are working to git it locked in and on the schedule. Once we do - it'll be damn the torpedoes and full steam ahead to secure a stellar line up of talent to teach it and a large group of students. We are secretly thinking that this could well be the finest RBC in program's history - I typed that out loud didn't I? 

Seriously, this place is great, so why not take full advantage and make this a RBC to remember!
PH

[ThaiFighter]

Ya know, we should probably run an Instructor's KD shoot there just to give it a test drive... 

[reagansmom215]

Ya know, we should probably run an Instructor's KD shoot there just to give it a test drive... 

dad gum it! why do y'all gotta keep teasing me like this??  if i knew all this was going on, i would've put off this whole preggo thing...  LOL  (control freak that I am, we actually left this one up to God Almighty!)

I wish you much success with this event. 'SKS and PHenry, you guys rock and you're doing an amazing job of advancing the mission of Appleseed. Again, I am SO PROUD to be a part of this group (even if I'm on hiatus).  and yeah, I s'pose Rick will want to go .... maybe i can just hang out and eat corn bread, if PHenry saves me some...   

[Heimdhal]

Ya know, we should probably run an Instructor's KD shoot there just to give it a test drive... 

dad gum it! why do y'all gotta keep teasing me like this??  if i knew all this was going on, i would've put off this whole preggo thing...  LOL  (control freak that I am, we actually left this one up to God Almighty!)

I wish you much success with this event. 'SKS and PHenry, you guys rock and you're doing an amazing job of advancing the mission of Appleseed. Again, I am SO PROUD to be a part of this group (even if I'm on hiatus).  and yeah, I s'pose Rick will want to go .... maybe i can just hang out and eat corn bread, if PHenry saves me some...   

Hey, I hadnt heard.  Congrats!

You can still shoot though, just sit in a chair and use a BB gun. Well adjust the targets for 25 feet.  Everyone should know what a 4 moa target scales to at 24 feet, right?  right?   

[ThaiFighter]

Ya know, we should probably run an Instructor's KD shoot there just to give it a test drive... 

dad gum it! why do y'all gotta keep teasing me like this??  if i knew all this was going on, i would've put off this whole preggo thing...  LOL  (control freak that I am, we actually left this one up to God Almighty!)

I wish you much success with this event. 'SKS and PHenry, you guys rock and you're doing an amazing job of advancing the mission of Appleseed. Again, I am SO PROUD to be a part of this group (even if I'm on hiatus).  and yeah, I s'pose Rick will want to go .... maybe i can just hang out and eat corn bread, if PHenry saves me some...   

...and we should all get suppressors so Reagansmom can shoot with us     

[hornblower]

Will all those who expressed an interest in a Florida Rifleman's Boot Camp, please read the thread entitled "Rifleman's Boot Camp on Hold"?

Itsansks and PHenry have done a great job in lining up possible sites for the RBC.

We are within sniffing distance.

Read the thread and stay up-to-date on Florida RBC developments.

It looks like December 13-19 will be the dates!

It sounds like we have a great location, and I am sure that the instructors will be the creme de la creme.

[Heimdhal]

Ya know, we should probably run an Instructor's KD shoot there just to give it a test drive... 

dad gum it! why do y'all gotta keep teasing me like this??  if i knew all this was going on, i would've put off this whole preggo thing...  LOL  (control freak that I am, we actually left this one up to God Almighty!)

I wish you much success with this event. 'SKS and PHenry, you guys rock and you're doing an amazing job of advancing the mission of Appleseed. Again, I am SO PROUD to be a part of this group (even if I'm on hiatus).  and yeah, I s'pose Rick will want to go .... maybe i can just hang out and eat corn bread, if PHenry saves me some...   

...and we should all get suppressors so Reagansmom can shoot with us     

^ this = win

[marrandy]

"A few details remain to be hammered out, but I can tell you that this will be like no other RBC- it will be an all-inclusive event- food, accommodations, transportation, entertainment, the whole ball of wax. 
Some of the things I CAN tell you are these:  the per-person cost will be similar; the dates will remain the same (December 12-19, 2010) food will be provided (breakfast, lunch and dinner) and there will be  three tiers of accommodations available- free camping, a low-cost bunk house that can sleep 8-10, and a plush lodge that can sleep 10 VERY comfortably.  "

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=16530.msg135000;topicseen#msg135000

So this isn't quite correct anymore as the food is an extra $30 p/d aka $210.

It seems to read:-

Event = $200
Range fee = $20 p/d aka $140
Meals $30/d aka 210

$550 if you do free camping. more for the bunks or lodge.

Does this include taxes ?

On top of that, 1200-1500 rounds of ammunition  aka $500

So we are over $1,000 plus accommodation upgrades.

I might have to change from   'attending'  to  'maybe'.

As I have, effectively, had little or no work the last several months and am living on savings, its getting pretty steep for me.

I can shoot the Manatee gun 1,000 yard range every day for $23 as a non-member.

I would like to go...but there are realities and I have already spent a chunk of money on Appleseed in the last few months.

That's just the way it is, unfortunately   :-(((

YMMV.