Author Topic: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier  (Read 5309 times)

Offline Johnnyappleseed

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Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« on: December 16, 2014, 12:17:47 PM »
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 12:22:44 PM by Johnnyappleseed »
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Offline Medicus

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Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2014, 12:40:12 PM »
Because we all know that the "10" in 10/22 is the pull weight of the stock Ruger trigger...
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen." Samuel Adams

"Just relax in the sling; we're going to make fun of you." -Pete!

Offline Nero

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Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2014, 12:50:25 PM »
Because we all know that the "10" in 10/22 is the pull weight of the stock Ruger trigger...

Heh.

Externally, at least, it looks nearly identical to the original one that came on my 10/22T target model, bought about 9 years ago.  That one I replaced with a Volquartsen trigger group.  It's still sitting on the shelf as a spare, in spite of having several loaners, because I like the standard group with the Volquartsen target hammer mod better than the 10/22T group.

Hopefully they've improved since then...

Offline jmdavis

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Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2014, 02:40:03 PM »
Hornet Enterprises down in FL, has taken the stock Ruger trigger and made it acceptable for many years. I bought the first that I have in 2008 and used it for myself and later on loaners in 2009-2012. With it, I never felt the need for Volquartson parts (other than a TI extractor).

I am glad that Ruger has finally gotten around to doing something similar. I hope that they do as good a job.

« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 02:53:40 PM by jmdavis »
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navybowhunter

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Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2014, 03:05:48 PM »
I'll chime in as well.  It's about time Ruger offers an upgraded system.  I love the low price point of the Carbines (mass produced), but they all could use some modifications.

I have a VQ trigger in one rifle that is nice.  On my Appleseed 10/22, replaced stock for the Hogue (with nice swivel attachment points) and then sent all my bolts and the Appleseed polymer trigger group off to a man by the name of Andy Trivette.

Here is what he can do, and his pricing is fair, with a  quick turnaround.
http://www.trivettesgunsmithing.com/10.html

The "Worx" done on the bolts has increased reliability on my rifles.  I LOVE the idea of "pinning" the firing pin, as it does jump.  Not anymore.

The radius job he does on the bolt makes for smooth operation.  His headspace job is very well done also.

FWIW

R/
Chris

Offline slim

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Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2014, 03:44:24 PM »
"Rack grade rifle and surplus ball" sure has lost its luster.

Offline SteelThunder

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Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2014, 04:07:26 PM »
Parallax
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navybowhunter

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Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2014, 05:48:14 PM »
Yeah yeah yeah....

Rack Grade and Ball Ammo will surely work.

Find me a Rack Grade .22 Rimfire, and Milsurp .22 ammo?

LOL

Not looking to debate it, but.....the 10/22 can always use a bit of upgrades.  I shared mine.

Why do we advertise, or "suggest" tech sights?  Surely they are not "rack grade", and PARALLAX?

What's that! LOL


Offline Kosciusko

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Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2014, 06:09:46 PM »
BX-Trigger  has a  MSRP of  $90

probably almost as good as the trigger on my 1970s vintage  50,000 range serial number 10/22

maybe  they could have stopped cheapening them up over the last 30-plus years, at least in areas that count, like,.....triggers

Palmetto State Armory had S&W M&P-15-22s  for $300  a while back, more gun for less money.  All you need to go shoot Appleseed with it is to clip on a USGI sling.

Offline SteelThunder

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Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2014, 06:18:18 PM »
PARALLAX?

What's that! LOL

I figured as long as we were getting slim's dander up, I'd throw something else out to raise his blood pressure a few points.
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Offline Nero

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Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2014, 06:42:50 PM »
Makes his  -:) curl!

Offline FiremanBob

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Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2014, 07:19:53 PM »
We'll see. The graph they show in the announcement indicates there is still quite a bit of both creep and overtravel. I got those and a 2.5 lb pull with my $35 VQ hammer kit. I'm presently helping a friend with his Kidd full trigger group - there is no trigger for 10/22s as good as Kidd - but I'd expect that for 200 clams. That's 3x the expected LGS price of Ruger's new group.

I've already had a couple of requests to write a test of it on the blog, and have asked Ruger to lend me an evaluation unit. We'll see what they say.
Author of "The 10/22 Companion: How to Operate, Troubleshoot, Maintain and Improve Your Ruger 10/22"

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Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2014, 10:10:49 PM »
Speaking of getting "Dander" Up...LOL

We need to come together AS INSTRUCTORS!

Imagine this:

We are all looking at a wall, it is YELLOW all day! 

BUT, say 80% of the instructors say it is KHAKI!

At the END of the day, what color is that YELLOW  wall?

IF IT IS ANY OTHER COLOR THAN KHAKI, WOW....

HMMM

R/
Chris



Offline MikeCee

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Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2014, 10:12:15 PM »
I'm inclined to keep my trigger pull above 3 pounds so that I'll be able to compete in the CMP Rimfire Sporter competitions without having to change anything. I'm convinced that the CMP Rimfire Sporter competition is a place where we could really make sure that Project Appleseed's presence is noticed.

And I still think that improving my trigger control is the best upgrade I'll ever make.

Offline FiremanBob

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Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2014, 10:26:23 PM »
Mike, a neat thing about the Kidd is that the weight is easily adjustable between 1.5 and 5 lbs. So you can have CMP-legal weight and that crisp break, too.
Author of "The 10/22 Companion: How to Operate, Troubleshoot, Maintain and Improve Your Ruger 10/22"

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Offline slim

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Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2014, 12:33:45 AM »
You guys might not believe me but I don't get emotional over stuff on the internet.

I had a couple questions today about what I meant by rack grade/surplus losing it's luster. As short as possible I mean we shouldn't be encouraging shooters to upgrade their equipment in order to shoot a better score. We should be instructing them on the fundamentals.

Appleseed was built around old battle rifles and that concept was pushed pretty hard in the early days. Folks realized pretty quickly it's a lot cheaper to shoot a .22 and we'd appeal to a larger audience by encouraging .22 shooting as opposed to centerfire battle rifles that cost hundreds of dollars to feed at a weekend event. That's when the LTR concept was born. If you read through those early threads the LTR was intended to be "as close as you can get" to the old battle rifles in .22 caliber. That's why they had peep sights and a web sling added to them but not much else.

I understand we don't have rack grade .22 rifles nor do we run surplus ball .22 ammo. But there's been several instances over the last couple months where instructors have talked about "the necessity" to upgrade equipment in order to shoot good scores. Insinuating folks need a better trigger and expensive ammo to shoot a Rifleman score is not only false, it runs counter to our core ideal of rack grade rifle and surplus ball.

There's absolutely no reason a shooter needs to upgrade anything mechanical on an off-the-shelf production rifle to score a Rifleman score. The title of this thread is about making Rifleman easier. I'd argue a Rifleman who "needs" a tricked-out rifle to shoot the score is no Rifleman at all. 


Offline Medicus

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Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2014, 01:30:23 AM »

There's absolutely no reason a shooter needs to upgrade anything mechanical on an off-the-shelf production rifle to score a Rifleman score. The title of this thread is about making Rifleman easier. I'd argue a Rifleman who "needs" a tricked-out rifle to shoot the score is no Rifleman at all.

It is with no small amount of trepidation that I cross lightsabers with Slim.

That said, I benefitted from swapping out a stock AR trigger to a Geissele on my Appleseed rifle. I went back and shot an Army M4 and while I was frustrated with the gritty trigger in it, I was able to apply the fundamentals and shoot consistently with my performance at Appleseed. Then came back to my rifle and pushed my scores up into the 230's for Winterseed.

Sometimes getting to 210 is enough of a mental hangup that an aftermarket trigger will get a shooter across the finish line. Once they've qualified and relax, they may not need it anymore. Furthermore, shooting stock triggers after that helps reinforce any fundamentals with steps 5 and 6 that the lighter trigger forgives. You then improve that much more with the aftermarket trigger after shooting a less optimized rifle. I think this stepladder approach of alternating between a "bad" Army rifle and my "good" civilian AR has benefitted my shooting.

If it's "magic shoes," so be it. Getting Riflemen is an end in itself. That's where our Orange Hats come from after all.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen." Samuel Adams

"Just relax in the sling; we're going to make fun of you." -Pete!

Offline slim

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Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2014, 02:25:58 AM »
It is with no small amount of trepidation that I cross lightsabers with Slim.
Why? We get paid the same. 

I wish volunteers would understand we're all equal in Appleseed. There's no such thing as someone being over or under another volunteer. We work together on this mission and the only time we work FOR someone is on the operational task we're completing that day or the project we're working on behind the scenes. Someone may get tasked with being in charge of something but that never means they're worth more to the mission or above another volunteer. There's nothing out there saying YOU can't be the biggest rock star in the program.

Think about that for a moment. YOU could be the biggest rock star in this program.

I might be the most vocal poster on our forum (and I know I have the sweetest haircut) but the truth is, I'm nobody.

Getting Riflemen is an end in itself. That's where our Orange Hats come from after all.
Rifleman is just the start. Far too many Orange Hats simply disappear and/or they come back for a little while and don't really know how to shoot yet. We have Red/Green hats who can't really shoot all that well.

What we need is folks who nail the skills. Folks who understand the fundamentals are what matters and who can instruct others how to do it. I honestly don't care how well someone can shoot as long as they're a competent instructor. It's worth noting the confidence to be competent typically comes from being able to walk the walk and that only comes from consistency. Our volunteers should be good enough to get handed 42 rounds and a rifle - even one that's not theirs - then shoot a 210+ on the AQT.

How many "super trigger" guys do you know who can do that?


Varying the equipment can be an effective method of isolating - and eliminating - issues. But we need to make sure we're not telling folks "Buy this and it'll be easier to become a Rifleman."

Offline FiremanBob

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Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2014, 08:23:05 AM »
I don't think this topic is about finding "cheats"  to making a Rifleman score. I enjoy shooting competitively, and I enjoy using finely designed and made tools. Many other people do, also. I don't ride a Walmart mountain bike, either. We are enthusiastic about our sport. That's how I take the origination of this thread.

I have never seen an AS instructor advise a student to upgrade or accessorize his rifle, except to improve how it fits. So I think Slim is attacking a Quixotian windmill here.

Could Wynton Marsalis play jazz on a beat-up, elementary school rental trumpet? Sure, and he'd sound good, too. But he finds it easier and more pleasant to use a high-quality instrument.
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Offline malabar

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Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2014, 10:59:41 AM »
Here's what I find vexing about the 10/22 triggers -- they don't have to be as bad as they are.

I bought one of the first run of Chargers sold.  It had a metal trigger group and a very crisp trigger in the neighborhood of four pounds.   I bought an SR22 rifle -- which cost three times what a regular 10/22 cost -- and the trigger was crap -- heavy, creepy, etc. told myself I'd work the kinks out but I haven't had the time.

Did I shoot rifleman with it? Yes.  Have several others? Yes.  Does the trigger still suck? Yes.

The point is, they can obviously make decent triggers for these guns because they put one in the charger.

tk
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Offline MikeCee

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Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2014, 11:18:26 AM »
Mike, a neat thing about the Kidd is that the weight is easily adjustable between 1.5 and 5 lbs. So you can have CMP-legal weight and that crisp break, too.
That's very intriguing for a competition rifle; I'm going to have to take a good look at that rig.

My Appleseed rifles are a factory CZ-512 and a Ruger 10/22 with a Hogue stock.

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Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2014, 12:52:34 PM »
Most rack grade MBR's/Service Rifles have much better triggers  than the stock 10/22.

My 10/22 trigger pull was handled long before Appleseed. Some of these hard trigger pulls can actually be a deterrant to learning for some folks.

Perhaps someone in Ruger is listening to us....
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Offline gonejohnny

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Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2014, 01:54:50 PM »
"Rack grade rifle and surplus ball" sure has lost its luster.

Hardly, Slim...


I'm inclined to keep my trigger pull above 3 pounds so that I'll be able to compete in the CMP Rimfire Sporter competitions without having to change anything. I'm convinced that the CMP Rimfire Sporter competition is a place where we could really make sure that Project Appleseed's presence is noticed.

We've got quite a few Appleseeder's in our Region whose presence is quite known at the CMP Games. Funny thing is though, most of them do their best at the centerfire stuff (Garand, Springfield, Vintage, Modern). Once they figure out how to shoot on their hind legs without a sling, things ramp up pretty quick. I cannot tell you how many times I've been standing around the scoreboard at the end of the day and overhear people with comments resembling "wow... that guy cleaned both his prone stages and then shot a 50 offhand... must be an Appleseeder". (Realize the black on a CMP target is 6.5-MOA! Shooting to 4 should be a cakewalk!!!)

The scores at their Rimfire Sporter match have pretty much all been dominated by super tricked out Kidd rifles and the like... Sure, you'll find quite a few honest relics in the game too... but most of the guys on top are tricked out. It's unfortunate too... It's my understanding that the Rimfire Sporter match was implemented specifically to get new guys into the sport (Women & Kids something to do while their hairy-legged ole' men were off shooting battle rifles). Now you've got to shoot 92% on much smaller targets to make the cut for a bronze achievement medal...

I ask you where you'd rather dominate? They're both pretty fun! But ask yourself?


And I still think that improving my trigger control is the best upgrade I'll ever make.

If it's improving your control that you're after, it might be argued that practicing with the worst possible trigger (arguably the stock 10/22 offering as an example) might be the best thing in the world for helping you. Getting that thing to break clean, while not disturbing anything else is a game all in itself!


Mike, a neat thing about the Kidd is that the weight is easily adjustable between 1.5 and 5 lbs. So you can have CMP-legal weight and that crisp break, too.

It is my understanding that the Kidd Two-Stage trigger maxes out at 3.5-lbs. Sweet surely, and pretty much infinitely adjustable... But kinda light for a "practice rifle". The single stage gets the 1.5 to 5-lbs... Got one of each. They're both awesome...



What we need is folks who nail the skills. Folks who understand the fundamentals are what matters and who can instruct others how to do it. I honestly don't care how well someone can shoot as long as they're a competent instructor. It's worth noting the confidence to be competent typically comes from being able to walk the walk and that only comes from consistency. Our volunteers should be good enough to get handed 42 rounds and a rifle - even one that's not theirs - then shoot a 210+ on the AQT.

Any Rifle, Any Ammo, Any Position, Anytime, Anywhere...

We teach the middle of the pad on the middle of the trigger and straight to the rear... On my AR... The more wood I drag the better when slug up... But If we get handed a rifle that we've never shot before, we know that what we teach will suffice to be effective to 4-MOA.


Offline jmdavis

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Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2014, 02:57:06 PM »
Quote
We teach the middle of the pad on the middle of the trigger and straight to the rear... On my AR... The more wood I drag the better when slug up... But If we get handed a rifle that we've never shot before, we know that what we teach will suffice to be effective to 4-MOA.

"Dragging wood" means nothing. You can do it and shoot cleans. But you must have good trigger control.

Teach people to shoot where their finger falls and teach them good trigger control and what it means (ie, the sights not moving from the activation of the trigger) and they will shoot well.

That's why Jim Owens wrote "Sight Alignment, trigger control and the Big Lie."

If you have mastered the SR target at 200 yards, Step back and start shooting across the course.
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Offline Big John

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Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2014, 03:19:09 PM »
Well, it's a question of measures.

We do recommend people use box mag rifles over tube mag rifles.
We do recommend a sling, specifically the loop sling.
We do recommend click adjustable sights.

Now, we want 4MOA. But, that's shooter and rifle combined. If you've got a 1MOA tackdriver
and a shooter barely making it; he'll have a better chance with that than with a rifle that does
3MOA due to el crappo trigger and other things.

So, while one should be able to qualify with anything, there are rifles viewed as challenges, and
rifles viewed as easier. I've gotten my trigger kitted 10/22 to 237, and my Marlin 39A to 197,
with a couple malfunctions. I don't want to improve the Marlin other than making the front sight
a bit easier to see, and fixing the springs. I'm not sure where a trigger kit falls. I did see some
Volquartsen tricked out race guns at the last Evansville AS, for which some ribbing was given out.  ;D

Offline Medicus

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Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2014, 03:35:25 PM »
BX-Trigger  has a  MSRP of  $90

probably almost as good as the trigger on my 1970s vintage  50,000 range serial number 10/22

maybe  they could have stopped cheapening them up over the last 30-plus years, at least in areas that count, like,.....triggers

Palmetto State Armory had S&W M&P-15-22s  for $300  a while back, more gun for less money.  All you need to go shoot Appleseed with it is to clip on a USGI sling.

Cost has to be a factor with any 22 you don't shoot competitively, given the overall lower price point and generally different uses for 22's. Talking it over with a 10/22 shooter at work, he's not happy with the trigger, bolt release, and mag lever on his 50th anniversary 10/22, but the price point on the VQ was a bit of a shock and may be a bridge too far.

Mrs. Medicus loves the trigger in our centerfire and wants one for her M&P 15-22, but I have a hard time putting a $260 trigger in a $380 rifle...

And I wish I'd seen $300 15-22's for sale before I jumped. The one we bought was already $100 off at Sportsman's, I thought it was a great deal.
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"Just relax in the sling; we're going to make fun of you." -Pete!

Offline jmdavis

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Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2014, 03:45:14 PM »
Quote
I did see some
Volquartsen tricked out race guns at the last Evansville AS, for which some ribbing was given out.

Funny, I thought "run what you brung" went both ways. You could shoot the Marlin 60 or the Anschutz 54 repeater without being made the butt of jokes.

"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

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  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
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Offline Big John

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Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2014, 03:57:26 PM »
Full disclosure: the racegun shooter was a good friend of the shoot boss and some instructors, so
it was all amongst friends and fun. In fact, his forum handle is Racegun because of it.

I would not tolerate any belittling of any rifle among people who were not friends.

A different appleseed.

Line Boss: What IS that rifle on the end?
Big John: No clue, boss.
Line Boss: Go find out.
(off I go)....time passes.
Line Boss: Well?!?
Big John: It says.....property of the Turkish Army.

It shot all right.

Offline jmdavis

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Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2014, 04:06:09 PM »
I had hoped it was something like that. Merry Christmas.
"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner

Offline fisherdawg

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Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2014, 04:10:12 PM »
Most rack grade MBR's/Service Rifles have much better triggers  than the stock 10/22.

That's fer sure, that's fer dang sure!
 ;)
If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. (James Madison)

"Young man, what we meant in going for those Redcoats was this: we always had governed ourselves and we always meant to. They didn't mean we should."
(Captain Levi Preston, of the Danvers militia, at age 91, remembering the day)

That it is an indispensable duty which we owe to God, our country, ourselves and posterity, by all lawful ways and means in our power to maintain, defend and preserve those civil and religious rights and liberties, for which many of our fathers fought, bled and died, and to hand them down entire to future generations.  Suffolk Resolves, September 9, 1774, attributed to Dr. Joseph Warren