Project Appleseed

Your Appleseed State Board => California (bob 210 and Camljr and EagleScouter) => Topic started by: Johnnyappleseed on December 16, 2014, 12:17:47 PM

Title: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: Johnnyappleseed on December 16, 2014, 12:17:47 PM
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: Medicus on December 16, 2014, 12:40:12 PM
Because we all know that the "10" in 10/22 is the pull weight of the stock Ruger trigger...
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: Nero on December 16, 2014, 12:50:25 PM
Because we all know that the "10" in 10/22 is the pull weight of the stock Ruger trigger...

Heh.

Externally, at least, it looks nearly identical to the original one that came on my 10/22T target model, bought about 9 years ago.  That one I replaced with a Volquartsen trigger group.  It's still sitting on the shelf as a spare, in spite of having several loaners, because I like the standard group with the Volquartsen target hammer mod better than the 10/22T group.

Hopefully they've improved since then...
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: jmdavis on December 16, 2014, 02:40:03 PM
Hornet Enterprises down in FL, has taken the stock Ruger trigger and made it acceptable for many years. I bought the first that I have in 2008 and used it for myself and later on loaners in 2009-2012. With it, I never felt the need for Volquartson parts (other than a TI extractor).

I am glad that Ruger has finally gotten around to doing something similar. I hope that they do as good a job.

Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: navybowhunter on December 16, 2014, 03:05:48 PM
I'll chime in as well.  It's about time Ruger offers an upgraded system.  I love the low price point of the Carbines (mass produced), but they all could use some modifications.

I have a VQ trigger in one rifle that is nice.  On my Appleseed 10/22, replaced stock for the Hogue (with nice swivel attachment points) and then sent all my bolts and the Appleseed polymer trigger group off to a man by the name of Andy Trivette.

Here is what he can do, and his pricing is fair, with a  quick turnaround.
http://www.trivettesgunsmithing.com/10.html

The "Worx" done on the bolts has increased reliability on my rifles.  I LOVE the idea of "pinning" the firing pin, as it does jump.  Not anymore.

The radius job he does on the bolt makes for smooth operation.  His headspace job is very well done also.

FWIW

R/
Chris
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: slim on December 16, 2014, 03:44:24 PM
"Rack grade rifle and surplus ball" sure has lost its luster.
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: SteelThunder on December 16, 2014, 04:07:26 PM
Parallax
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: navybowhunter on December 16, 2014, 05:48:14 PM
Yeah yeah yeah....

Rack Grade and Ball Ammo will surely work.

Find me a Rack Grade .22 Rimfire, and Milsurp .22 ammo?

LOL

Not looking to debate it, but.....the 10/22 can always use a bit of upgrades.  I shared mine.

Why do we advertise, or "suggest" tech sights?  Surely they are not "rack grade", and PARALLAX?

What's that! LOL

Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: Kosciusko on December 16, 2014, 06:09:46 PM
BX-Trigger  has a  MSRP of  $90

probably almost as good as the trigger on my 1970s vintage  50,000 range serial number 10/22

maybe  they could have stopped cheapening them up over the last 30-plus years, at least in areas that count, like,.....triggers

Palmetto State Armory had S&W M&P-15-22s  for $300  a while back, more gun for less money.  All you need to go shoot Appleseed with it is to clip on a USGI sling.
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: SteelThunder on December 16, 2014, 06:18:18 PM
PARALLAX?

What's that! LOL

I figured as long as we were getting slim's dander up, I'd throw something else out to raise his blood pressure a few points.
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: Nero on December 16, 2014, 06:42:50 PM
Makes his  -:) curl!
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: FiremanBob on December 16, 2014, 07:19:53 PM
We'll see. The graph they show in the announcement indicates there is still quite a bit of both creep and overtravel. I got those and a 2.5 lb pull with my $35 VQ hammer kit. I'm presently helping a friend with his Kidd full trigger group - there is no trigger for 10/22s as good as Kidd - but I'd expect that for 200 clams. That's 3x the expected LGS price of Ruger's new group.

I've already had a couple of requests to write a test of it on the blog, and have asked Ruger to lend me an evaluation unit. We'll see what they say.
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: navybowhunter on December 16, 2014, 10:10:49 PM
Speaking of getting "Dander" Up...LOL

We need to come together AS INSTRUCTORS!

Imagine this:

We are all looking at a wall, it is YELLOW all day! 

BUT, say 80% of the instructors say it is KHAKI!

At the END of the day, what color is that YELLOW  wall?

IF IT IS ANY OTHER COLOR THAN KHAKI, WOW....

HMMM

R/
Chris


Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: MikeCee on December 16, 2014, 10:12:15 PM
I'm inclined to keep my trigger pull above 3 pounds so that I'll be able to compete in the CMP Rimfire Sporter competitions without having to change anything. I'm convinced that the CMP Rimfire Sporter competition is a place where we could really make sure that Project Appleseed's presence is noticed.

And I still think that improving my trigger control is the best upgrade I'll ever make.
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: FiremanBob on December 16, 2014, 10:26:23 PM
Mike, a neat thing about the Kidd is that the weight is easily adjustable between 1.5 and 5 lbs. So you can have CMP-legal weight and that crisp break, too.
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: slim on December 17, 2014, 12:33:45 AM
You guys might not believe me but I don't get emotional over stuff on the internet.

I had a couple questions today about what I meant by rack grade/surplus losing it's luster. As short as possible I mean we shouldn't be encouraging shooters to upgrade their equipment in order to shoot a better score. We should be instructing them on the fundamentals.

Appleseed was built around old battle rifles and that concept was pushed pretty hard in the early days. Folks realized pretty quickly it's a lot cheaper to shoot a .22 and we'd appeal to a larger audience by encouraging .22 shooting as opposed to centerfire battle rifles that cost hundreds of dollars to feed at a weekend event. That's when the LTR concept was born. If you read through those early threads the LTR was intended to be "as close as you can get" to the old battle rifles in .22 caliber. That's why they had peep sights and a web sling added to them but not much else.

I understand we don't have rack grade .22 rifles nor do we run surplus ball .22 ammo. But there's been several instances over the last couple months where instructors have talked about "the necessity" to upgrade equipment in order to shoot good scores. Insinuating folks need a better trigger and expensive ammo to shoot a Rifleman score is not only false, it runs counter to our core ideal of rack grade rifle and surplus ball.

There's absolutely no reason a shooter needs to upgrade anything mechanical on an off-the-shelf production rifle to score a Rifleman score. The title of this thread is about making Rifleman easier. I'd argue a Rifleman who "needs" a tricked-out rifle to shoot the score is no Rifleman at all. 

Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: Medicus on December 17, 2014, 01:30:23 AM

There's absolutely no reason a shooter needs to upgrade anything mechanical on an off-the-shelf production rifle to score a Rifleman score. The title of this thread is about making Rifleman easier. I'd argue a Rifleman who "needs" a tricked-out rifle to shoot the score is no Rifleman at all.

It is with no small amount of trepidation that I cross lightsabers with Slim.

That said, I benefitted from swapping out a stock AR trigger to a Geissele on my Appleseed rifle. I went back and shot an Army M4 and while I was frustrated with the gritty trigger in it, I was able to apply the fundamentals and shoot consistently with my performance at Appleseed. Then came back to my rifle and pushed my scores up into the 230's for Winterseed.

Sometimes getting to 210 is enough of a mental hangup that an aftermarket trigger will get a shooter across the finish line. Once they've qualified and relax, they may not need it anymore. Furthermore, shooting stock triggers after that helps reinforce any fundamentals with steps 5 and 6 that the lighter trigger forgives. You then improve that much more with the aftermarket trigger after shooting a less optimized rifle. I think this stepladder approach of alternating between a "bad" Army rifle and my "good" civilian AR has benefitted my shooting.

If it's "magic shoes," so be it. Getting Riflemen is an end in itself. That's where our Orange Hats come from after all.
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: slim on December 17, 2014, 02:25:58 AM
It is with no small amount of trepidation that I cross lightsabers with Slim.
Why? We get paid the same. 

I wish volunteers would understand we're all equal in Appleseed. There's no such thing as someone being over or under another volunteer. We work together on this mission and the only time we work FOR someone is on the operational task we're completing that day or the project we're working on behind the scenes. Someone may get tasked with being in charge of something but that never means they're worth more to the mission or above another volunteer. There's nothing out there saying YOU can't be the biggest rock star in the program.

Think about that for a moment. YOU could be the biggest rock star in this program.

I might be the most vocal poster on our forum (and I know I have the sweetest haircut) but the truth is, I'm nobody.

Getting Riflemen is an end in itself. That's where our Orange Hats come from after all.
Rifleman is just the start. Far too many Orange Hats simply disappear and/or they come back for a little while and don't really know how to shoot yet. We have Red/Green hats who can't really shoot all that well.

What we need is folks who nail the skills. Folks who understand the fundamentals are what matters and who can instruct others how to do it. I honestly don't care how well someone can shoot as long as they're a competent instructor. It's worth noting the confidence to be competent typically comes from being able to walk the walk and that only comes from consistency. Our volunteers should be good enough to get handed 42 rounds and a rifle - even one that's not theirs - then shoot a 210+ on the AQT.

How many "super trigger" guys do you know who can do that?


Varying the equipment can be an effective method of isolating - and eliminating - issues. But we need to make sure we're not telling folks "Buy this and it'll be easier to become a Rifleman."
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: FiremanBob on December 17, 2014, 08:23:05 AM
I don't think this topic is about finding "cheats"  to making a Rifleman score. I enjoy shooting competitively, and I enjoy using finely designed and made tools. Many other people do, also. I don't ride a Walmart mountain bike, either. We are enthusiastic about our sport. That's how I take the origination of this thread.

I have never seen an AS instructor advise a student to upgrade or accessorize his rifle, except to improve how it fits. So I think Slim is attacking a Quixotian windmill here.

Could Wynton Marsalis play jazz on a beat-up, elementary school rental trumpet? Sure, and he'd sound good, too. But he finds it easier and more pleasant to use a high-quality instrument.
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: malabar on December 17, 2014, 10:59:41 AM
Here's what I find vexing about the 10/22 triggers -- they don't have to be as bad as they are.

I bought one of the first run of Chargers sold.  It had a metal trigger group and a very crisp trigger in the neighborhood of four pounds.   I bought an SR22 rifle -- which cost three times what a regular 10/22 cost -- and the trigger was crap -- heavy, creepy, etc. told myself I'd work the kinks out but I haven't had the time.

Did I shoot rifleman with it? Yes.  Have several others? Yes.  Does the trigger still suck? Yes.

The point is, they can obviously make decent triggers for these guns because they put one in the charger.

tk
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: MikeCee on December 17, 2014, 11:18:26 AM
Mike, a neat thing about the Kidd is that the weight is easily adjustable between 1.5 and 5 lbs. So you can have CMP-legal weight and that crisp break, too.
That's very intriguing for a competition rifle; I'm going to have to take a good look at that rig.

My Appleseed rifles are a factory CZ-512 and a Ruger 10/22 with a Hogue stock.
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: TaosGlock on December 17, 2014, 12:52:34 PM
Most rack grade MBR's/Service Rifles have much better triggers  than the stock 10/22.

My 10/22 trigger pull was handled long before Appleseed. Some of these hard trigger pulls can actually be a deterrant to learning for some folks.

Perhaps someone in Ruger is listening to us....
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: gonejohnny on December 17, 2014, 01:54:50 PM
"Rack grade rifle and surplus ball" sure has lost its luster.

Hardly, Slim...


I'm inclined to keep my trigger pull above 3 pounds so that I'll be able to compete in the CMP Rimfire Sporter competitions without having to change anything. I'm convinced that the CMP Rimfire Sporter competition is a place where we could really make sure that Project Appleseed's presence is noticed.

We've got quite a few Appleseeder's in our Region whose presence is quite known at the CMP Games. Funny thing is though, most of them do their best at the centerfire stuff (Garand, Springfield, Vintage, Modern). Once they figure out how to shoot on their hind legs without a sling, things ramp up pretty quick. I cannot tell you how many times I've been standing around the scoreboard at the end of the day and overhear people with comments resembling "wow... that guy cleaned both his prone stages and then shot a 50 offhand... must be an Appleseeder". (Realize the black on a CMP target is 6.5-MOA! Shooting to 4 should be a cakewalk!!!)

The scores at their Rimfire Sporter match have pretty much all been dominated by super tricked out Kidd rifles and the like... Sure, you'll find quite a few honest relics in the game too... but most of the guys on top are tricked out. It's unfortunate too... It's my understanding that the Rimfire Sporter match was implemented specifically to get new guys into the sport (Women & Kids something to do while their hairy-legged ole' men were off shooting battle rifles). Now you've got to shoot 92% on much smaller targets to make the cut for a bronze achievement medal...

I ask you where you'd rather dominate? They're both pretty fun! But ask yourself?


And I still think that improving my trigger control is the best upgrade I'll ever make.

If it's improving your control that you're after, it might be argued that practicing with the worst possible trigger (arguably the stock 10/22 offering as an example) might be the best thing in the world for helping you. Getting that thing to break clean, while not disturbing anything else is a game all in itself!


Mike, a neat thing about the Kidd is that the weight is easily adjustable between 1.5 and 5 lbs. So you can have CMP-legal weight and that crisp break, too.

It is my understanding that the Kidd Two-Stage trigger maxes out at 3.5-lbs. Sweet surely, and pretty much infinitely adjustable... But kinda light for a "practice rifle". The single stage gets the 1.5 to 5-lbs... Got one of each. They're both awesome...



What we need is folks who nail the skills. Folks who understand the fundamentals are what matters and who can instruct others how to do it. I honestly don't care how well someone can shoot as long as they're a competent instructor. It's worth noting the confidence to be competent typically comes from being able to walk the walk and that only comes from consistency. Our volunteers should be good enough to get handed 42 rounds and a rifle - even one that's not theirs - then shoot a 210+ on the AQT.

Any Rifle, Any Ammo, Any Position, Anytime, Anywhere...

We teach the middle of the pad on the middle of the trigger and straight to the rear... On my AR... The more wood I drag the better when slug up... But If we get handed a rifle that we've never shot before, we know that what we teach will suffice to be effective to 4-MOA.

Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: jmdavis on December 17, 2014, 02:57:06 PM
Quote
We teach the middle of the pad on the middle of the trigger and straight to the rear... On my AR... The more wood I drag the better when slug up... But If we get handed a rifle that we've never shot before, we know that what we teach will suffice to be effective to 4-MOA.

"Dragging wood" means nothing. You can do it and shoot cleans. But you must have good trigger control.

Teach people to shoot where their finger falls and teach them good trigger control and what it means (ie, the sights not moving from the activation of the trigger) and they will shoot well.

That's why Jim Owens wrote "Sight Alignment, trigger control and the Big Lie."

If you have mastered the SR target at 200 yards, Step back and start shooting across the course.
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: Big John on December 17, 2014, 03:19:09 PM
Well, it's a question of measures.

We do recommend people use box mag rifles over tube mag rifles.
We do recommend a sling, specifically the loop sling.
We do recommend click adjustable sights.

Now, we want 4MOA. But, that's shooter and rifle combined. If you've got a 1MOA tackdriver
and a shooter barely making it; he'll have a better chance with that than with a rifle that does
3MOA due to el crappo trigger and other things.

So, while one should be able to qualify with anything, there are rifles viewed as challenges, and
rifles viewed as easier. I've gotten my trigger kitted 10/22 to 237, and my Marlin 39A to 197,
with a couple malfunctions. I don't want to improve the Marlin other than making the front sight
a bit easier to see, and fixing the springs. I'm not sure where a trigger kit falls. I did see some
Volquartsen tricked out race guns at the last Evansville AS, for which some ribbing was given out.  ;D
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: Medicus on December 17, 2014, 03:35:25 PM
BX-Trigger  has a  MSRP of  $90

probably almost as good as the trigger on my 1970s vintage  50,000 range serial number 10/22

maybe  they could have stopped cheapening them up over the last 30-plus years, at least in areas that count, like,.....triggers

Palmetto State Armory had S&W M&P-15-22s  for $300  a while back, more gun for less money.  All you need to go shoot Appleseed with it is to clip on a USGI sling.

Cost has to be a factor with any 22 you don't shoot competitively, given the overall lower price point and generally different uses for 22's. Talking it over with a 10/22 shooter at work, he's not happy with the trigger, bolt release, and mag lever on his 50th anniversary 10/22, but the price point on the VQ was a bit of a shock and may be a bridge too far.

Mrs. Medicus loves the trigger in our centerfire and wants one for her M&P 15-22, but I have a hard time putting a $260 trigger in a $380 rifle...

And I wish I'd seen $300 15-22's for sale before I jumped. The one we bought was already $100 off at Sportsman's, I thought it was a great deal.
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: jmdavis on December 17, 2014, 03:45:14 PM
Quote
I did see some
Volquartsen tricked out race guns at the last Evansville AS, for which some ribbing was given out.

Funny, I thought "run what you brung" went both ways. You could shoot the Marlin 60 or the Anschutz 54 repeater without being made the butt of jokes.

Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: Big John on December 17, 2014, 03:57:26 PM
Full disclosure: the racegun shooter was a good friend of the shoot boss and some instructors, so
it was all amongst friends and fun. In fact, his forum handle is Racegun because of it.

I would not tolerate any belittling of any rifle among people who were not friends.

A different appleseed.

Line Boss: What IS that rifle on the end?
Big John: No clue, boss.
Line Boss: Go find out.
(off I go)....time passes.
Line Boss: Well?!?
Big John: It says.....property of the Turkish Army.

It shot all right.
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: jmdavis on December 17, 2014, 04:06:09 PM
I had hoped it was something like that. Merry Christmas.
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: fisherdawg on December 17, 2014, 04:10:12 PM
Most rack grade MBR's/Service Rifles have much better triggers  than the stock 10/22.

That's fer sure, that's fer dang sure!
 ;)
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: fisherdawg on December 17, 2014, 04:13:28 PM
There's nothing out there saying YOU can't be the biggest rock star in the program.

Think about that for a moment. YOU could be the biggest rock star in this program.

Medicus is a rock star  --- just don't tell him!
 >:D
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: Agrivere on December 17, 2014, 10:56:44 PM
I don't personally see a lot that's very interesting about the new ruger trigger for me, but I'll wager it will be a nice addition for a lot of shooters.

Regarding the secondary discussion, I'll simply say that our country has always gone to great effort and expense to make sure our soldiers have the best equipment they can have. It was as true in 1775 as it is today. Why some people choose to argue with those who want the best equipment that can have continues to baffle me. 

I can also say that for those who wish to learn to shoot better than a 4 MOA standard, you will learn more about your shooting than you can imagine. Remember a 2 MOA target ( the NRA Highpower slow prone target for example has a 2 minute 10 ring) is not half the size of a 4 MOA target - it's 1/4 the size. You will find the effort to be very rewarding, and I would suggest you'll learn a lot that will make you a much better instructor.

The Rifleman patch can be the end of a journey for some, but it can also be the start of a journey that can lead many places. Don't belittle those whose journey follows a different path than yours...
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: navybowhunter on December 20, 2014, 07:03:18 PM
I'll say my "dander" with Slim was easily "quelled" simply by a discussion between him and I.

SIMPLICITY, and precision.

All too often this innernet thing becomes way too personal (myself included), to include my response on "Parralax" (I'm still a noob), of which I guess was meant to "Spin" Slim up.

We are all Volunteers! HUZZAH!

Hope we can all relax a BIT (not on our laurels, cause 2015 is gonna be busy), and re-center (is that a word?), or just RELAX for a week or two with our families, and then CENTER up again smartly for the year ahead!

Obviosuly we are all PASSIONATE as all heck about this stuff!

Merry Christmas, Hannukah, Kwanza, Festivus, and whatever you all celebrate.  Sadly Isaac Davis did not get to celebrate on 25 Dec 1775, can you imagine what it was like in Hannah's home?

WOW!

Respectfully,
Chris

Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: Unbridled Liberty on December 21, 2014, 12:52:42 PM
I'll say my "dander" with Slim was easily "quelled" simply by a discussion between him and I.

SIMPLICITY, and precision.

All too often this innernet thing becomes way too personal (myself included), to include my response on "Parralax" (I'm still a noob), of which I guess was meant to "Spin" Slim up.

We are all Volunteers! HUZZAH!

Hope we can all relax a BIT (not on our laurels, cause 2015 is gonna be busy), and re-center (is that a word?), or just RELAX for a week or two with our families, and then CENTER up again smartly for the year ahead!

Obviosuly we are all PASSIONATE as all heck about this stuff!

Merry Christmas, Hannukah, Kwanza, Festivus, and whatever you all celebrate.  Sadly Isaac Davis did not get to celebrate on 25 Dec 1775, can you imagine what it was like in Hannah's home?

WOW!

Respectfully,
Chris

Well said sir!  We are all individuals with strong passions, especially for Liberty, otherwise we would be spending most of our time on our couches being entertained. 

In researching Dr. Warren, I found that he got into a flame war with another local physician via the social media of their day, the newspaper.  Some things never change. 

Maybe we can all start with a clean slate in 2015.  It is my hope that my Appleseed brothers and sisters whom I offended in 2014 will forgive me.  I plan on making some personal changes in that area, starting now.  For Liberty and posterity, here's to a productive and effective 2015... O0

UL
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: viperrt1 on December 26, 2014, 01:58:21 PM
I'm inclined to keep my trigger pull above 3 pounds so that I'll be able to compete in the CMP Rimfire Sporter competitions without having to change anything. I'm convinced that the CMP Rimfire Sporter competition is a place where we could really make sure that Project Appleseed's presence is noticed.

And I still think that improving my trigger control is the best upgrade I'll ever make.

I 100% agree.

End of the day it's shooter not gear.
Instead of $2000 rifle get $200 one few hundred in good ammo and few hundred in class and be miles ahead. That Why I did appleseed with old 1022 iron sites. I wanted learn marksmanship. Not which rifle is most accurate
I keep my 22 at 4 lbs. And my NM garand at 5.5 lbs. I found in heat of competition I would pull though the first stage like it wasn't there at 4.5lbs.
I have found the smoothness and travel distance is key. Not weight.

But to learn proper trigger control I like the heavy, long pulls. It magnified my errors.

I on the other hand I like that is ruger going away from heavy long pulls. I just wish they were adjustable. There no one size fits all.

They both have there place.

Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: WinterRider on January 14, 2015, 04:30:38 PM
Hey guys I'm new here . I was reading this post because I shot my first day of Apple Seed with a stock 10/22 before moving on to an ar. I was shooting with a scope and at one point on my stage three when my blood was pumping I got down into my NPOA had it dialed in and went to take my shot at my respiratory pause.... My crosshairs moved before the trigger break. I stopped paused and  focused on squeezing the trigger and it made all the difference and I shot three groups under 4 moa. Really focusing and not just playing lip service to the six steps is what did it for me. And I didn't really fully understand that untill I was examining what I did different on Saturday from Sunday and why I only shot a 197 on Sunday vs my 229 the day before. Putting my thoughts down to share with others as my instructors asked me to I think improved upon the skills they were teaching. I was thinking about a better trigger but then realized that for about  the same price of 7 triggers I can have an m1. ;)
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: viperrt1 on January 16, 2015, 08:27:57 PM
You are perfect example of why a stock 10/22 is great rifle for this program! O0 that was great shooting.
If you do get that m1 bring that to a shoot as well. There are a lot of fun and the sacromento group will be more then happy to show you the in and outs of that rifle.
 :cool2:
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: Charles McKinley on January 18, 2015, 03:48:52 AM
Has anyone here actually shot the new trigger yet?

DeckApe needs a trigger group as his stock group has developed a nasty habbit of firing when the safety is taken off.  No "work" has been done to the trigger but it is unsafe and has been taken out of service until fixed.

Chuck
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: FiremanBob on January 18, 2015, 09:05:35 AM
The foremost gunsmith specializing in 10/22 triggers has said the BX is a good trigger group. Not as good as his products (which are truly excellent) but miles ahead of the stock trigger.

For someone who doesn't know how to disassemble and work on the trigger group, the BX seems to be an excellent solution - two pins out, swap groups (make sure the ejector is properly in its slot upon installation) and the two pins back in.

I'd like to see and diagnose the offending TG. It is not impossible that user error could be the problem. Is the user setting the safety on before cocking the hammer? The safety can not slide under the sear if the hammer is uncocked. The photos in this blog post: http://1022companion.wordpress.com/2014/12/02/making-the-rifle-safe-safely/ (http://1022companion.wordpress.com/2014/12/02/making-the-rifle-safe-safely/) illustrate the relationship between the safety and the sear in the uncocked and cocked positions.
If this is not the problem, I would be very interested in seeing what the mechanical cause could be.
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: jmdavis on January 18, 2015, 11:14:37 AM
An M1 is a fine thing to have. But if you don't already have ammo, it will cost you 7 triggers and $.70 per shot at reduced cmp (CMP prices) or $1 per shot at commercial ammo prices.

.22lr is currenrtly available for  $.096 per shot (CCI std at Midway, $39.99/brick + shipping).

Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: slim on January 19, 2015, 11:57:57 PM
Has anyone here actually shot the new trigger yet?
I have. I'd been reading this thread a few weeks ago and couldn't wait for the chance to buy an easier way to make Rifleman.

I found a couple BX Triggers for sale at a local mom & pop (for $64.99) and I tried them out at the store last week. (They're packaged so you can try them before you buy them. - Great marketing!) After posting a few selfies on facebook to show all my friends they were available and pretty cheap I passed because I figured you can't buy skill.

After a week or so of thinking it over and reading more internetz I decided maybe you really can buy skill. So, I went back this week and bought one. It was interesting to note the two triggers in the store had very different trigger pulls. One was obviously waaaaay better than the other one. The resident gun shop guru confirmed that was the one I should buy so I pulled the trigger on it and took it home.

The Indiana IBC was this weekend so we passed it around for a while, took some more selfies with it (because you can never have too many selfies) and then after lots of head shaking, nay saying, ridicule and looks of disgust I put it in my rifle. It took all of 5 minutes and I used my Leatherman to do it. Very simple and easy, even for someone as awesome at gun maintenance as me. (I don't even clean my rifles except maybe once a year or when they stop working.)

The very first AQT I shot was a Rifleman score so this thing really does work as advertised. My factory trigger required about 8lbs of pull and this one is only 2.5 so that means it only requires about 31% of the effort the factory trigger needs in order to shoot Rifleman scores. If everyone puts this trigger group into their rifle they should make Rifleman scores easier by about 69%!!! My second AQT was also a Rifleman score so that right there is proof this thing works.

You really can buy an easier Rifleman score!

(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c226/bradleysettle/bxt_zps057c5fcb.jpg)
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: Charles McKinley on January 20, 2015, 04:01:22 PM
Thank you Slim for that informative and entertaining review.  I'll get one for my brother's rifle and maybe send the trigger group in it Bob's way if we can't figure it out easily.
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: Nero on January 20, 2015, 04:21:00 PM

You really can buy an easier Rifleman score!


That might be more convincing if you handed it to someone who hasn't shot a score on a crappy 8lb factory trigger!  Just sayin'   ;D **)
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: FiremanBob on January 20, 2015, 05:38:18 PM
Sophomoric sarcasm doesn't deserve to be dignified with a response.
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: Nero on January 20, 2015, 06:19:22 PM
Sophomoric sarcasm doesn't deserve to be dignified with a response.

Lighten up.  Slim can take a bit of a ribbing, he dishes it out enough.   -:)  ;D
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: FiremanBob on January 20, 2015, 06:28:22 PM
Nero, sorry if it wasn't clear - I was referring to Slim's post. His post is off the point. Of course a better trigger makes it easier to shoot well. If that weren't true, there would be no aftermarket for trigger jobs or drop-in parts for ARs or any other rifles. The title of this thread is "...making Rifleman easier". Nobody claimed the BX is a miracle product that guarantees any results. So, typical of bad satire, Slim is attacking something that nobody said.
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: MostlyHarmless on January 20, 2015, 08:37:33 PM
If everyone puts this trigger group into their rifle they should make Rifleman scores easier by about 69%!!! My second AQT was also a Rifleman score so that right there is proof this thing works.

You really can buy an easier Rifleman score!

I don't need it to be easier. But if I can do it with less effort, I'm all about it!

If Ruger can contrive the 10/22 drop in part that will allow me to score rifleman from the comfort of my couch, they may have invented themselves the key to my wallet!  ::)
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: MostlyHarmless on January 20, 2015, 08:40:32 PM
It was interesting to note the two triggers in the store had very different trigger pulls. One was obviously waaaaay better than the other one. The resident gun shop guru confirmed that was the one I should buy so I pulled the trigger on it and took it home.

That is not reassuring.

I am accustomed to Ruger's triggers not being consistent. Yet I had somehow assumed that this would not be the case with their upgrades also....
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: slim on January 21, 2015, 02:04:47 AM
If you read the internetz - and a few places on this forum - you'll see the suggestion, over and over, that buying a do-hickey will make you better at shooting. It's simply not true.

You get better at shooting by learning the fundamentals and then practicing.

To see it suggested or implied on our forum that upgrading a trigger makes Rifleman easier is outrageous. Making Rifleman isn't about shooting a 210+ one time with a tricked-out rimfire rifle. It's about owning the skills to be a field shooter - someone who can pick up a rack grade rifle, surplus ball ammo, and make hits on man-sized targets at 500 yards.

When we lean toward target shooting and the gear race that some have been caught up in lately, we do ourselves a disservice. We're not a target program. We're not a gear program. We're a fundamentals program. High Power has its place. Smallbore has its place. But we keep blurring the lines between our place and theirs.

I'm not against folks doing "Other Than Appleseed" shooting. OTA is fun. OTA takes the shooting sports and spreads them to the people. OTA is necessary for us to do.

- But we shouldn't be doing it on our lines.

Instruct people on how to shoot 8lb triggers. Help them develop pride in doing so. Someday, they might just pick up a rifle that isn't all tricked out. I'm pretty sure they'll figure out how to run a 2lb trigger if they're familiar with the 8 pounder. Not so sure it'll work the other way around. 

Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: Medicus on January 21, 2015, 02:06:31 AM
Parallax  >:D
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: KodyJaret on January 21, 2015, 11:17:27 AM
If I can do it,,, (you can do it),,,:

http://www.greatwestgunsmithing.com/1022%20trigger%20job%20high.html

http://www.greatwestgunsmithing.com/videos.htm
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: Nero on January 21, 2015, 12:25:40 PM
The new Ruger trigger (and Appleseed) got a nice mention from Mas Ayoob today:

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2015/01/20/more-cool-new-gun-stuff/
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: Unbridled Liberty on January 21, 2015, 06:21:57 PM
The new Ruger trigger (and Appleseed) got a nice mention from Mas Ayoob today:

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2015/01/20/more-cool-new-gun-stuff/

Quote
"I expect a lot of them to show up at the great Appleseed events, which we at Backwoods Home enthusiastically support."
  This dude should be our national spokesman.

UL
Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: jmdavis on January 22, 2015, 12:45:09 AM
If Appleseed is "Run what you brung" then criticizing people because the want a decent trigger (like the one on my 1950's Remington's or my M1, or my Anschutz, or a number of out of the box Savage Poducts), doesn't make sense.

I can shoot a Rifleman score with a 2lb trigger and with a 6lb creepy AR carbine trigger and I can do it with an 8lb trigger. The reason is because I learned what good trigger control actually is. But,  I greatly prefer a clean to a gravelly trigger. All of my M1's have clean triggers, they came that way. My M1A had a clean trigger it came that way too. My Rock River NM is a two stage trigger with a 4.5 lb pull. It works pretty darn good. A good trigger is worth a few points, if you know about sight alignment and trigger control. If you don't the best trigger in the world won't help.

By the same token, all of the bad practice in the world will never make you good.







Title: Re: Ruger offers product to making Rifleman easier
Post by: Earl on January 23, 2015, 03:49:55 AM
This is one of the most positive strings on Appleseed I have read in awhile... since I don't do 10/22 much outside of helping others with theirs I didn't bite when it originally came out. I also think the shooter is easier to fix than the rifle, and much more flexible. Still it was great listening to y'all experts on triggers, shooting skills and cost value. Hope to see y'all on the range soon, new year and more challenges. ^:)^