Bolt or Semi?

[Dougum]

As an answer to what gun I was using It was a Savage Mark II FV. This model has a very thick barrel and a lack of sights. I used a Bushnell 3-9x32 Rimfire scope. I bought 2 after market clips for it (10 rounders). Ammo wise I was using Federal Value Pack High Velocities. It performs well in the rifle. I did not score a rifleman at my first appleseed and I blame the rain. It kept raining and the wind wouldn't stop so I think I was just a little tensed up. Not to mention my father forgetting to pack the tent. What a disaster! I think my best score was a 189. I had a better target but I shot the wrong number of shots on each side of the target so it didn't count. Oh well.

Thanks For all the replies

             Bolt Gunner

I forgot one little detail in my description of the rifle. You need an untold amount of practice. I put about 800 rounds down range before my first Appleseed. The only reason I didn't get a rifleman was becasue trying to rush through the stages and I was using the scope as a spotter for my last shot.

Bolt

[The Wolfhound]

I still recommend semi vs. bolt.  That being said, I have done all my appleseed shooting with my CZ 452 in .22Magnum.  Got the patches and the hat as a result.  I just think a bolt adds complication to the process unless you are practiced in a bolt.  If your technique is good you will make Rifleman either way.

[azmule]

I showed up to my first AS with a kid-sized Anschutz "starter" bolt action I picked up about 20 years ago, with a hooded front sight and peep rear, for which I only had one 5-round magazine.  That one has long been my favorite "play" .22 for shooting offhand, tiny and light but incredibly accurate for a kid's rifle and quick to work the bolt without having to move out of position - I found I could even manually load the last 5 rounds from a shooting block placed on the mat in front of me so that I could reach it without moving my trigger elbow.  Unfortunately, I had to switch to my AR almost immediately into the AQTs anyway - as easy as it may be to shoot a rifle that is too small for you standing, the fact that I had to move my face out of the way to work the bolt in prone and re-establish my cheek-weld each time did way more to slow me down in the timed stages than even manual loading single rounds.

One of these days when I find an acceptable way to *removably* add about 4 or 5 stable inches to the length of the stock without drilling holes or anything I'm gonna try it again.

[Castle Mountain]

I ;think I recall Spitzstickler telling me that he has one of those and how fast, yet superior, the bolt action is of that rifle.
Happy New Year to you too good sir!

CM

CM
The fastest centerfire bolt gun I have observed is the Swiss K39 -- had a Marine (not active) score RM with it at Mingus 06 -- ironically he could not score RM with a M14 at same event 

I managed a 207 with pre64 mod 70 with surplus 3006 -- although it's possible the LB was a bit slow on calling cease fire 
That being said all other things equal a semi will beat a bolt every time .
Happy New Year
JA

[Dougum]

Does anyone make a gas operated .22cal rifle?
Thanks

Bolt

[Mark Davis]

Hate to be a smart a** but every AR .223 is gas operated.

[Altarboy]

Does anyone make a gas operated .22cal rifle?
Thanks

Bolt

i have a jager ap74 but i dont know if its gas operated

[Wheeler44]

As Cloddy mentioned....All ARs are gas operated.........22lr. operate at such low pressure that a straight blowback is all that is necessary to operate....I have a shot a Jager as well and I'm sure that they are blowback as well.

I do not know of a .22lr that is gas operated, but there may be one.

W44

[K98Al]

 I'm fond of shooting AQTs with K98s.....it is very difficult to get the 60 year old rounds to slide off the stripper clip into the rifle, and when you're on stages 2 and 3, expect to get frustrated and lose time. Trying out some stripper clips beforehand to make sure they slide easily helps a bunch. Then when that 60 year old ammo made in gagbakistan misfires.... ...I usually slice my thumb trying to jam another clip in before ceasefire.

Advantage: you can see 8mm holes at 25m with no problem. Also, it makes that semi auto seem really user-friendly afterwards.

[Dougum]

What about an AR .22Lr conversion kit? Is it still a gas operated system or blowback?
Thanks

Bolt

[NewMOe]

Should be blow back, But in my two AR's the accuracy seems to suffer, I'm thinking that the twist rate is too far off for the .22 lr to spin proper (both are1 in 9). Just a thought for the cost of a quality .22 conversion you can pick up a marlin 795 or the Mossberg plinkster.

[Mark Davis]

Not only the twist, bullets for .223 remington or 5.56mm Should measure .224.
Bullets for .22 long rifle are .220-.221.
Under size bullets may not shoot very good, but many conversion shooters say they shoot OK.
I do not have any first hand info other than the size and twist info.
A dedicated .22 lr upper with a barrel of proper diameter and twist would work, but the cost of one would buy two good .22 rifles.

[Justin]

Nice Savage there fastfrank777. I will say that so far the MK II is the best 22 rifle I've used so far. Yes it is a bolt action but, it's short cycle. I highly recommend!

That AR? style 22 is probably blowback. Real easy way to tell is is there a gas tube above the chamber and/or does the bolt carrier have a gas pipe on it?



That gas tube is the tell tale sign.

[Dougum]

Anybody recommend buying a Romak III or PSL? Lookin' for somethin'to put rounds town range quicker than a bolt action and already owning a Mosin, I absolutly love the power of the 7.62x54r cartridge. However I have hear that they can only get about 2 moa. This of course coming from non Appleseeders. Thanks Folks!

Bolt

Romak III            PSL           Romak III           PSL          Romak III          PSL           Romak III           PSL

[Dougum]

     New news out today. The ATF is inacting a law that resrticts what kind of shotguns we can import to the US. I dont know when or how this was passed through congress (it didn't) but this is restricting our rights. What's next? Rifle resrtictions? Magazine resrtictions? Heres the only website that had said something about the act. Either the ATF is keeping this quiet (most probable) or theres another conspiracy. Check it out and decide for yourself.

http://blog.princelaw.com/2011/1/20/atf-to-issue-new-ruling-on-monday-regarding-new-restrictions-on-shotgun-importation

Oh, and by the way It gets inacted Tomorrow. Go contact you reps now and tell 'em that you want it repealed.

Bolt

[w3st]

 I just shot my first AS today. and I had planned on using a .223 bot action that I bought about a month ago, but the problem was that the magazine only holds 4 rounds, which is much less than needed. But I brought along my 10/22 with stock iron sight, just in case and, im glad I did. Honestly for shooting the appleseed I would recomend shooting a semi auto. Although I wish they did an appleseed shoot designed specifically for the bolt action, I think that it would be a really good experience.

[Dougum]

Howd you like your first shoot? Pretty awesome huh? I'm planning on attending my second at a shoot in April. Its fun to take the centerfires out after the seed. Not to mention when Dinky shows up and makes an almost impossible shoot on an apple in the dark. Yeah, I was there.

Doug

[Mark Davis]

I just shot my first AS today. and I had planned on using a .223 bot action that I bought about a month ago, but the problem was that the magazine only holds 4 rounds, which is much less than needed. But I brought along my 10/22 with stock iron sight, just in case and, im glad I did. Honestly for shooting the appleseed I would recomend shooting a semi auto. Although I wish they did an appleseed shoot designed specifically for the bolt action, I think that it would be a really good experience.

The course of fire is desinged around a bolt action. The idea is that you learn to do the nessacary motions to accomplish the rate of fire and accuracy.
This course of fire was/in used in NRA highpower matches dating back to the 1903 springfeild bolt action rifle.
The semiauto came along some years later and made it easyer.
If it was easy would the rifleman's bage be something to be proud of?
Get another magazine, learning to do it bolt action will make you better in the end because you have to check your natural point of aim many more times.

[Dougum]

which is "better" .223 or .22lr. I've got both but want to know which would be better. Thanks
Doug

[Mark Davis]

A 223 is better at 100, 200,300, and 400 yards
at 82' a 22 lr is better if you have any respect for your pocketbook.
I can't tell you which is better.

[The Wolfhound]

Amen to that.  About 3 cents per round or about 30 cents per round. For 25M/82ft, I will vote cheap rimfire!  Plus it is easier to find 500 rounds of .22 LR on a store shelf than 500 rounds of 5.56/.223.  Good prices on centerfire requires serious shopping and bulk buying.  A good price on .22LR only requires a Wal-Mart.

[AmericaStandsStrong]

The first 2 seeds I attended I used a borrowed 10-22, then between my 2nd and 3rd shoot my dad bought me a Marlin 795 w/ Simmons 4x32 and at my third seed I shot Rifleman with it. I am glad I was able to use my own rifle to get my score.

[Beastmode44]

I would agree on the rim-fire being better just for sake of price at 25 meters. With about nine AS under my belt, I have used a .22 LR at 8 of them. My first appleseed i used a mini-14, and spent a ton on ammo. Ever since i've used my ruger 10-22. HOWEVER! At the last one, I decided to do a reality check. I asked myself the question, "which gun am I defending myself with and should be able to use proficiently?" Well, as obvious, a semi-auto was a gimme, and my AR-15 was choice numero uno. Therefore, I practiced with it until I got rifleman. (P.S., this only took one page of sighter squares and one AQT to getta 225.) Anyhow, it is good to know that you are proficiant with your battle rifle, not just your chipmunk killer. So just to put things into reality, I would extremely recommend using both.

[Mark Davis]

The skills learned on one rifle readily transfer to another, but don't neglect either one.
Just because I shoot my 10-22 out to 400 yards with horrifically large groups, than doesn't keep me from making sub one minute groups at 400 with a certain centerfire bolt gun that hangs out in my safe most the time.

[Beastmode44]

Familiarity does effect that though. Especially in stressful and demanding situations.

[TN_Dadx5]

I shot my first appleseed with a scoped Ruger 10/22 (old eyes) that I had done the usual fixes and scored 219 and then 228 on Sunday.  My eldest daughter shot her first 'seed with a similar 10/22 and scored rifleman (I forget the exact score).  My eldest son used an old Iver Johnson Carbine that caused him much grief with FTEs.  His next attempt at Rifleman was hampered by a range fire shutting down our day (NG with tracers on next range).  My youngest daughter has been getting used to a Savage Cub bolt (with the AccuTrigger) and if I can feed her the rounds fast enough, she's liable to make rifleman.

Semi's make the task a lot simpler, but either can get a determined operator past 210.

[DBoller]

I shot and still shoot a Marlin 60. I think it's probably the best deal, although the only downside is the tubefed magazine( although an instructor showed me how to make a speed loader by taking a long straw and taping the end of it, then you just have to put your bullets in it upside down then take the rod out and dump in the ammo.) I forgot to mention that it was a semi-auto(duh on my part), a 795 would be good to, because it's basically the same thing except with a clip magazine. It's also super accurate once you get it dialed in the only way I can miss is if I mess up or I put some bad ammo in it. I have a simmons scope on it, I also use wolf ammo in it, although every gun likes different ammo. Hope that helps. DBoller

[Shooterer]

I shoot my 10-22 out to 400 yards with horrifically large groups,

I use Wolf MT, 40gr @ 1050 fps
@ 100 yd I have a 7" drop
@ 200 yd I have a 55" drop
@ 250 yd I have to make a 96" correction

What is your sight adjustment at 400 yds?

[Mark Davis]

At 426 my sights 78 minutes from bottem.
at 100 12 minutes from bottem.
so..66X4.25......275 inches of drop
from 100 yard zero

[HectorFuego]

I shot a 219 at my first Appleseed using a pre-WWII vintage Winchester 69A bolt gun with a peep sight.  It's been in my family for 65 years and I've been shooting it for over 50.  It's my oldest, most reliable friend. 

My goal now is to break 210 using my 03A3 Springfield.

Guess I'm a bolt-gun guy.

Hector