Project Appleseed

Appleseed Welcome Center => Appleseed for Kids => Topic started by: Dougum on November 14, 2010, 10:45:21 PM

Title: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Dougum on November 14, 2010, 10:45:21 PM
I've been to one Appleseed and I saw a great variance in choices of rifles. Bolts and Semis. Which was your first rifle and why'd you choose it. Mine was a bolt with a heavy barrel. It was the only one I had and it offered greater accuracy. I found that I could shoot as fast and more accurate than most of the semis on the line. I'd be glad to hear your first AS rifle choice and I'm sure the others would too.  :---

Bolt Gunner
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: ACP230 on November 14, 2010, 10:57:06 PM
I used a bolt-action a Winchester 52 target rifle for my first Appleseed.  Later I tried a Remington 541T HB with a scope.
Last time it was a Ruger 10/22 with a target barrel, a Fajen stock and a scope. 

The older I get the better a scoped semiauto looks.   
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: GoldFish on November 14, 2010, 11:12:08 PM
My first AS rifle was a Savage 64SS, which is also the rifle I scored Rifleman with.  Good rifle with a pretty decent price tag.
However, I prefer a good 10/22 with either a scope or Tech-Sights. :)
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Pvt.Joker on November 15, 2010, 12:37:18 AM
My first (appleseed) rifle was a borrowed Marlin  795 w/ tech-sights.

Shot 221 on my first AQT.

What I really love about this is that it is NOT an equipment game. If you can't do it with a rack-grade rifle, work on the 6 steps.
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Old Dog on November 15, 2010, 07:17:34 AM
M1A.  The M1A I'd owned almost 30 years.  I'd like to do it with my M1 Garand one of these days, or maybe one of the AR15's (with or without the .22 conversion kit).
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Oleg Volk on November 15, 2010, 09:06:11 AM
I'd suggest semi. Might as well use the training to get used to the type of rifle you'd use for defense.
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Andre on November 15, 2010, 09:15:25 AM
My choice was determined by three factors - cost, range restrictions, and AS recommendations.  I had the opportunity to travel to a couple of possible shoots, which started me calculating a cost comparison of ammo.  I found the savings of .22lr over my other options (considering 2 or 3 events) meant I could buy a 10/22 (the recommended LTR) for less than the savings in ammo.  :)    One of those options was a bolt action in 17 HMR.  Then I decided to shoot at the closest event, which was a .22 rimfire only event.  Therefore, the 10/22 was the logical choice for me.  However, somewhere down the line, I might just pick up a bolt action for the AQT and see if I can meet the challenge it presents. 


ACP230,

I shot with the scope, having first tried the stock Ruger sights and then the Tech Sights.  Eyesight (or lack of it  ;) ) was the deciding factor.  Later, I decided to give the Tech Sights a try again.  If "older eyes" is a concern of yours, I did a post on my experience on that challenge which you might find helpful : http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=18329.0  .  It was something I needed to do for many reasons, one being a desire to shoot the M1 Garand at Rifleman level, because marksmanship matters.   :~

Andre
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: The Wolfhound on November 21, 2010, 09:51:54 PM
Bring the rifle you have, so I shot a brand new bolt action CZ 452 in .22WMR.  My other rifles were tied up with other family members.  Meeting the timing requirements with a bolt action is not something I recommend trying unless you are a seasoned shooter.  Learning to operate the bolt with speed complicates the other learning that goes on at Appleseed and the trigger release and follow through is different.  Is it doable? Oh Yeah, but for newer shooters, I cannot recommend a semi-automatic strongly enough.  With more Applesseds clearly in my future, I added more magazine fed semi-autos to supply more family members and to be loaners.
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Wheeler44 on November 21, 2010, 09:59:35 PM
Having seen (and coached) many shooters on their way to Rifleman using bolt actions....I say it ain't nuthin' if you don't make it sumpthin'..I know for a fact that it has been done many times with bolties.....Bolties rule.

W44
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: JustJeff on November 21, 2010, 10:29:55 PM
The first rifle I used for Appleseed was a Marlin bolt-action I'd borrowed from a buddy.  I did fairly well, having not shot in years (189 high on the weekend).  Since then, I bought (at the suggestion of a redhat mentor) a Marlin 795, which is the rifle I shot Rifleman with.  I'm contemplating using the Marlin bolt-action again, just to say I did it with a bolt-action too. 
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Castle Mountain on November 21, 2010, 11:21:44 PM

Bolt Gunner,

I am interested in knowing please a detailed description of the bolt rifle you refer too.
You speak of its great speed as being comprable to a semi. Did you shoot a rifle man
score higher than 210 and earned your rifleman's badge? If so, what was your highest
score with that bolt rifle. If your bolt rifle is that fast I think everyone would be interested
in knowing what it is please?


Best regards,

CM


I've been to one Appleseed and I saw a great variance in choices of rifles. Bolts and Semis. Which was your first rifle and why'd you choose it. Mine was a bolt with a heavy barrel. It was the only one I had and it offered greater accuracy. I found that I could shoot as fast and more accurate than most of the semis on the line. I'd be glad to hear your first AS rifle choice and I'm sure the others would too.  :---

Bolt Gunner
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Wheeler44 on November 21, 2010, 11:39:18 PM
When my son (then 15) earned his patch he used a Savage bolt .22 with a scope. The last models before the accu-trigger, it has a trigger pull greater than my trigger pull scale can measure ...  The one thing that held him back was going  back and spotting his last shot with his scope....When he was coached beyond that he easily scored Rifleman.

W44
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Wade on November 22, 2010, 12:23:57 AM
My first Appleseed was a Riflemans boot camp @ Deviila TX 11/07 My Rifle M-1 Garand (ammo did not cost as much as it does now) In hindsight I wish I had bought a shooters jacket or at lest elbow pads %) :wall: medical tape and big bandages will work in place of the elbow pads but by the time I was using them it was abit late  :o ;D the Guy ending up handing me his LTR intell I was ready to go back to my Garand. If he had not handing me his LTR I would have kept shooting the Garand ,,and yes my elbow's are abit calloused from that.

Wade

Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: yellowhousejake on November 22, 2010, 12:41:26 AM
I have seen many of each on the line. IMO, the bolt action is not a hindrance to shooting Rifleman in any way. No one thinks 55 seconds is enough time, until they have shot a few AQTs, then they discover that 55 seconds is plenty. The bolt shooters get maybe 4-5 rounds off first time though, where semi shooters get 7-8. By Sunday everyone is getting all 10 shots off, bolt actions included.

I would go as far as to say that it helps on stage one as the bolt shooters don't try to force a perfect hold for 6 to 10 shots on their first few AQTs.

YHJ

PS. I've seen CZ rifles at several shoots, it is a very very fast bolt. I plan to ask Minus1 to let me try his next time I work with him.
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Castle Mountain on November 22, 2010, 12:55:34 AM

No arugment from me YHJ, I just want to know what that mystery rifle that Bolt Gun used happens to be.
If his bolt is that fast, then what rifle is it one? I know well what shooting a bolt gun takes, I shot my Rifleman score
with a Savage. I know there are better bolt rifles, I just would like to know what makes his rifle that fast
and knowing its make might coax me into trying another one.

CM


I have seen many of each on the line. IMO, the bolt action is not a hindrance to shooting Rifleman in any way. No one thinks 55 seconds is enough time, until they have shot a few AQTs, then they discover that 55 seconds is plenty. The bolt shooters get maybe 4-5 rounds off first time though, where semi shooters get 7-8. By Sunday everyone is getting all 10 shots off, bolt actions included.

I would go as far as to say that it helps on stage one as the bolt shooters don't try to force a perfect hold for 6 to 10 shots on their first few AQTs.

YHJ

PS. I've seen CZ rifles at several shoots, it is a very very fast bolt. I plan to ask Minus1 to let me try his next time I work with him.
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: ACP230 on November 22, 2010, 09:48:21 AM
I think the fastest bolt would be a straight pull like the Browning.
That type of action is used in Biathlon rifles just because it is fast and simple to operate.   
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Garand69 on November 22, 2010, 09:57:26 AM
I've been to one Appleseed and I saw a great variance in choices of rifles. Bolts and Semis. Which was your first rifle and why'd you choose it. Mine was a bolt with a heavy barrel. It was the only one I had and it offered greater accuracy. I found that I could shoot as fast and more accurate than most of the semis on the line. I'd be glad to hear your first AS rifle choice and I'm sure the others would too.  :---

Bolt Gunner

Great question Bolt Gunner,

I believe you directed this towards the younger shooters. so I will answer from the perspective of my 3 sons...

My Oldest son (Wetfoot) was 11 at his first Appleseed and he used a Ruger 10/22 with a scope. He had several issues with the rifle, mainly ammo issues. You see his 1st Appleseed was also my first Appleseed, and most of my .22lr triggertime was just plinking so I always bought the "bulk packed" .22lr ammo. Well to say the least, he was very aggravated at the first couple of Appleseeds (the first was pouring rain the whole time!) Then the Shoot Boss at one of his first shoots (The Guy) got us straightened out on ammo, and that problem was solved (ammo does not have to be expensive, just reliable and consistant in your rifle!). Then his next issue... THE SCOPE!!! Just like Wheeler44 said, my son also started using the scope as a spotter between shots. This would mess him all up. He would throw one shot out of the scoring ring, then get frustrated and shoot poorly for the rest of the AQT. That added at least two more Appleseeds to his Path to Rifleman. He is now using a 10/22 with tech-sights so that he can acheive Rifleman with "iron sights" as well. When he does that he will get a chance to shoot an AQT with an AR 15. Here he is at his 2nd or 3rd Appleseed... Boy did "The Guy" harrass him when he saw this picture!! He wasn't wrapped in the sling!! &) &)

(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y121/Garand69/75680016.jpg)



My second son (M1) was a bit younger at his first Appleseed. He was 9 yrs old and for the first few Appleseeds he used an old single shot Stevens bolt-action. While he couldn't load fast enough for stages 1 & 2, he did manage to get 10 shots into the target during stages 1 & 4. Now that he has the fundamental skills down pat, he has moved up to the Ruger 10/22 w/scope that his older brother used. He is not quite strong enough to shoot standing yet, but from a supported position his best is a 209!! Next year we will work on the positions a bit more. here he is at at first Appleseed 9/09 Chillicothe IL

(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y121/Garand69/46420020.jpg)

My third Son (M2) was only five at his first shoot in Chillicothe Illinois. So he needed a much smaller rifle than his older brothers, so he shot a Henry Mini-Bolt single shot bolt action. He is working on the fundamentals for now, and when he has a good target, he gets to shoot the Ruger 10/22 for a bit. BUT! He is still young and does not conserve ammo well with the 10/22. Which is why we call him "M2", which is the "Automatic" version of the M1 Carbine  **)
He first Appleseed was also at Chilli in 09....

(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y121/Garand69/46420021.jpg)


Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Dougum on November 22, 2010, 07:15:08 PM
As an answer to what gun I was using It was a Savage Mark II FV. This model has a very thick barrel and a lack of sights. I used a Bushnell 3-9x32 Rimfire scope. I bought 2 after market clips for it (10 rounders). Ammo wise I was using Federal Value Pack High Velocities. It performs well in the rifle. I did not score a rifleman at my first appleseed and I blame the rain. It kept raining and the wind wouldn't stop so I think I was just a little tensed up. Not to mention my father forgetting to pack the tent. What a disaster! I think my best score was a 189. I had a better target but I shot the wrong number of shots on each side of the target so it didn't count. Oh well.

Thanks For all the replies

             Bolt Gunner
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Altarboy on November 22, 2010, 10:17:00 PM
i shot a 216 with a savage mk2
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Dougum on November 23, 2010, 09:12:01 PM
Nice! I've been practicing for the rifleman. sounds like you got 'er good.
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Dougum on December 24, 2010, 05:18:52 PM
Merry Christmas Y'all O0

Doug
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Mark Davis on December 24, 2010, 11:36:07 PM
Castle Mountain,
I have shot with the Savage mkII FVT, it is equipped with aperture sights front and rear, heavy barrel, flimsy moulded stock, and accutrigger.

The bolt can be operated from position by pivoting the palm of the trigger hand, giving the fingers circular up and back motion the pivoting the hand forward with the fingers sweeping forward and down.

The magazine will not free fall out. So at mag change time I operate the release catch with trigger hand and bend my forward hand back to strip the old mag out between thumb and fore finger, works best with ten round magazine.

Had the mechanics down before going back to the six steps where in my eagerness to work the bolt followthrough was ignored.
So I made myself wait for the recoil impulse to subside, after checking NPOA then work the bolt.

Rifleman scores then came on my target.
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Dougum on December 28, 2010, 10:00:47 PM
For some reason my Mk II doesn't have any sights except the Bushnell scope I put on it. Also mine don't got the accutrigger for some reason. Also my mags drop out with a touch of the release. Just might be a cheap mag er somthin'. I do agree about the working of the bolt. Not sayin' anything bad about your knowledge Clod, sorry if it seems that way. You probably know more about the gun than I do.

Bolt :---
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Mark Davis on December 29, 2010, 12:02:18 AM
Bolt Gunner, I your mag falls out then mine should too.
A bit of abrasives may be called for!
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Dougum on January 01, 2011, 12:07:19 AM
That might help it out a little. Just make sure you re-paint or re-blue it. I just got mine out yesterday and my almost brand new mags had rusted up a little in the gun case. Also wondering if anyone out there has achieved even a Marksman with a single shot .22. I just inherited my GreatGranddad's old Ward ( ^:)^) and would like to try to shoot marksman with it.

Thanks,

Bolt :---
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Wheeler44 on January 01, 2011, 12:15:40 AM
Quote
Also wondering if anyone out there has achieved even a Marksman with a single shot .22. I just inherited my GreatGranddad's old Ward ( ) and would like to try to shoot marksman with it.
Why limit yourself to what others have done? With the right .22 single shot bolt gun Rifleman is attainable . A single shot adapter in a CZ makes it easy, relatively speaking of course.

W44
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Wade on January 01, 2011, 01:58:43 AM
I have personaly timed and scored an AQT that hit Rifleman score done with a singal shot .22,,,a friend of mine forgot his mags for a .22 rifle and tought well what the heck "I wonder if it can be done" .




Wade
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Johnnyappleseed on January 01, 2011, 01:47:29 PM
CM
The fastest centerfire bolt gun I have observed is the Swiss K39 -- had a Marine (not active) score RM with it at Mingus 06 -- ironically he could not score RM with a M14 at same event  ;D

I managed a 207 with pre64 mod 70 with surplus 3006 -- although it's possible the LB was a bit slow on calling cease fire  ;)
That being said all other things equal a semi will beat a bolt every time .
Happy New Year
JA
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Wheeler44 on January 01, 2011, 02:16:43 PM
In real world shooting, with a centerfire rifle it is possible to shoot a bolt action to the point where the barrel is too hot for accurate shooting just as fast as with a semi...Of course training and practice is most important.

The Rangers of northern Canada are having Lee Enfields made new for them in 7.62x51 because they've worn out the old .303s ...And because no semi-auto will function in the extreme cold as reliably as a bolty.

I believe that the current record (and it's stood for quite some time) is 38 rounds into an 18" black at 300 yards in one minute with a Lee Enfield....That is six reloads from the top using chargers (stripper clips). Google youtube for Lee Enfield "Mad Minute"...slow is smooth...smooth is fast.. practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice does..It ain't the bow or the arrow it's the injun...

Happy New Year.

W44
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: 06en on January 01, 2011, 02:28:40 PM
In real world shooting, with a centerfire rifle it is possible to shoot a bolt action to the point where the barrel is too hot for accurate shooting just as fast as with a semi...Of course training and practice is most important...

 ...And because no semi-auto will function in the extreme cold as reliably as a bolty.

 ...slow is smooth...smooth is fast.. practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice does..It ain't the bow or the arrow it's the injun...

Happy New Year.

W44

Well said Wheeler! There is nothing like being able to put shoots down range with the skills of a Rifleman, using the time tested and proven bolt-action-rifle. It is tons of fun  O0  .
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Dougum on January 02, 2011, 10:32:46 AM
As an answer to what gun I was using It was a Savage Mark II FV. This model has a very thick barrel and a lack of sights. I used a Bushnell 3-9x32 Rimfire scope. I bought 2 after market clips for it (10 rounders). Ammo wise I was using Federal Value Pack High Velocities. It performs well in the rifle. I did not score a rifleman at my first appleseed and I blame the rain. It kept raining and the wind wouldn't stop so I think I was just a little tensed up. Not to mention my father forgetting to pack the tent. What a disaster! I think my best score was a 189. I had a better target but I shot the wrong number of shots on each side of the target so it didn't count. Oh well.

Thanks For all the replies

             Bolt Gunner

I forgot one little detail in my description of the rifle. You need an untold amount of practice. I put about 800 rounds down range before my first Appleseed. The only reason I didn't get a rifleman was becasue trying to rush through the stages and I was using the scope as a spotter for my last shot.

Bolt
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: The Wolfhound on January 04, 2011, 03:16:18 PM
I still recommend semi vs. bolt.  That being said, I have done all my appleseed shooting with my CZ 452 in .22Magnum.  Got the patches and the hat as a result.  I just think a bolt adds complication to the process unless you are practiced in a bolt.  If your technique is good you will make Rifleman either way.
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: azmule on January 04, 2011, 08:59:45 PM
I showed up to my first AS with a kid-sized Anschutz "starter" bolt action I picked up about 20 years ago, with a hooded front sight and peep rear, for which I only had one 5-round magazine.  That one has long been my favorite "play" .22 for shooting offhand, tiny and light but incredibly accurate for a kid's rifle and quick to work the bolt without having to move out of position - I found I could even manually load the last 5 rounds from a shooting block placed on the mat in front of me so that I could reach it without moving my trigger elbow.  Unfortunately, I had to switch to my AR almost immediately into the AQTs anyway - as easy as it may be to shoot a rifle that is too small for you standing, the fact that I had to move my face out of the way to work the bolt in prone and re-establish my cheek-weld each time did way more to slow me down in the timed stages than even manual loading single rounds.

One of these days when I find an acceptable way to *removably* add about 4 or 5 stable inches to the length of the stock without drilling holes or anything I'm gonna try it again.
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Castle Mountain on January 05, 2011, 12:53:17 AM



I ;think I recall Spitzstickler telling me that he has one of those and how fast, yet superior, the bolt action is of that rifle.
Happy New Year to you too good sir! :)

CM

CM
The fastest centerfire bolt gun I have observed is the Swiss K39 -- had a Marine (not active) score RM with it at Mingus 06 -- ironically he could not score RM with a M14 at same event  ;D

I managed a 207 with pre64 mod 70 with surplus 3006 -- although it's possible the LB was a bit slow on calling cease fire  ;)
That being said all other things equal a semi will beat a bolt every time .
Happy New Year
JA
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Dougum on January 06, 2011, 05:52:31 PM
Does anyone make a gas operated .22cal rifle?
Thanks

Bolt
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Mark Davis on January 06, 2011, 09:05:18 PM
Hate to be a smart a** but every AR .223 is gas operated.
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Altarboy on January 06, 2011, 10:57:03 PM
Does anyone make a gas operated .22cal rifle?
Thanks

Bolt

i have a jager ap74 but i dont know if its gas operated
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Wheeler44 on January 07, 2011, 02:17:37 AM
As Cloddy mentioned....All ARs are gas operated.........22lr. operate at such low pressure that a straight blowback is all that is necessary to operate....I have a shot a Jager as well and I'm sure that they are blowback as well.

I do not know of a .22lr that is gas operated, but there may be one.

W44
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: K98Al on January 07, 2011, 02:24:28 PM
 I'm fond of shooting AQTs with K98s.....it is very difficult to get the 60 year old rounds to slide off the stripper clip into the rifle, and when you're on stages 2 and 3, expect to get frustrated and lose time. Trying out some stripper clips beforehand to make sure they slide easily helps a bunch. Then when that 60 year old ammo made in gagbakistan misfires.... >:(...I usually slice my thumb trying to jam another clip in before ceasefire.

Advantage: you can see 8mm holes at 25m with no problem. Also, it makes that semi auto seem really user-friendly afterwards.
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Dougum on January 08, 2011, 11:16:46 PM
What about an AR .22Lr conversion kit? Is it still a gas operated system or blowback?
Thanks

Bolt
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: NewMOe on January 08, 2011, 11:29:04 PM
Should be blow back, But in my two AR's the accuracy seems to suffer, I'm thinking that the twist rate is too far off for the .22 lr to spin proper (both are1 in 9). Just a thought for the cost of a quality .22 conversion you can pick up a marlin 795 or the Mossberg plinkster.
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Mark Davis on January 08, 2011, 11:45:14 PM
Not only the twist, bullets for .223 remington or 5.56mm Should measure .224.
Bullets for .22 long rifle are .220-.221.
Under size bullets may not shoot very good, but many conversion shooters say they shoot OK.
I do not have any first hand info other than the size and twist info.
A dedicated .22 lr upper with a barrel of proper diameter and twist would work, but the cost of one would buy two good .22 rifles.
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Justin on January 09, 2011, 08:46:49 PM
Nice Savage there fastfrank777. I will say that so far the MK II is the best 22 rifle I've used so far. Yes it is a bolt action but, it's short cycle. I highly recommend!

That AR? style 22 is probably blowback. Real easy way to tell is is there a gas tube above the chamber and/or does the bolt carrier have a gas pipe on it?

(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:k0n5_2sFnoyePM:http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/Ekie12091941/variation%20guide/barreldate.jpg&t=1)

That gas tube is the tell tale sign.
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Dougum on January 14, 2011, 09:56:42 PM
Anybody recommend buying a Romak III or PSL? Lookin' for somethin'to put rounds town range quicker than a bolt action and already owning a Mosin, I absolutly love the power of the 7.62x54r cartridge. However I have hear that they can only get about 2 moa. This of course coming from non Appleseeders. Thanks Folks!

Bolt

Romak III            PSL           Romak III           PSL          Romak III          PSL           Romak III           PSL
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Dougum on January 23, 2011, 09:28:22 PM
     New news out today. The ATF is inacting a law that resrticts what kind of shotguns we can import to the US. I dont know when or how this was passed through congress (it didn't) but this is restricting our rights. What's next? Rifle resrtictions? Magazine resrtictions? Heres the only website that had said something about the act. Either the ATF is keeping this quiet (most probable) or theres another conspiracy. Check it out and decide for yourself.

http://blog.princelaw.com/2011/1/20/atf-to-issue-new-ruling-on-monday-regarding-new-restrictions-on-shotgun-importation

Oh, and by the way It gets inacted Tomorrow. Go contact you reps now and tell 'em that you want it repealed.

Bolt
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: w3st on January 30, 2011, 08:43:06 PM
 I just shot my first AS today. and I had planned on using a .223 bot action that I bought about a month ago, but the problem was that the magazine only holds 4 rounds, which is much less than needed. But I brought along my 10/22 with stock iron sight, just in case and, im glad I did. Honestly for shooting the appleseed I would recomend shooting a semi auto. Although I wish they did an appleseed shoot designed specifically for the bolt action, I think that it would be a really good experience.
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Dougum on January 30, 2011, 09:13:35 PM
Howd you like your first shoot? Pretty awesome huh? I'm planning on attending my second at a shoot in April. Its fun to take the centerfires out after the seed. Not to mention when Dinky shows up and makes an almost impossible shoot on an apple in the dark. Yeah, I was there.

Doug :---
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Mark Davis on January 31, 2011, 11:44:42 AM
I just shot my first AS today. and I had planned on using a .223 bot action that I bought about a month ago, but the problem was that the magazine only holds 4 rounds, which is much less than needed. But I brought along my 10/22 with stock iron sight, just in case and, im glad I did. Honestly for shooting the appleseed I would recomend shooting a semi auto. Although I wish they did an appleseed shoot designed specifically for the bolt action, I think that it would be a really good experience.
The course of fire is desinged around a bolt action. The idea is that you learn to do the nessacary motions to accomplish the rate of fire and accuracy.
This course of fire was/in used in NRA highpower matches dating back to the 1903 springfeild bolt action rifle.
The semiauto came along some years later and made it easyer.
If it was easy would the rifleman's bage be something to be proud of?
Get another magazine, learning to do it bolt action will make you better in the end because you have to check your natural point of aim many more times.
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Dougum on February 17, 2011, 08:53:31 PM
which is "better" .223 or .22lr. I've got both but want to know which would be better. Thanks
Doug :---
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Mark Davis on February 17, 2011, 10:47:42 PM
A 223 is better at 100, 200,300, and 400 yards
at 82' a 22 lr is better if you have any respect for your pocketbook.
I can't tell you which is better.
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: The Wolfhound on February 18, 2011, 02:42:53 PM
Amen to that.  About 3 cents per round or about 30 cents per round. For 25M/82ft, I will vote cheap rimfire!  Plus it is easier to find 500 rounds of .22 LR on a store shelf than 500 rounds of 5.56/.223.  Good prices on centerfire requires serious shopping and bulk buying.  A good price on .22LR only requires a Wal-Mart.
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: AmericaStandsStrong on March 03, 2011, 05:19:53 PM
The first 2 seeds I attended I used a borrowed 10-22, then between my 2nd and 3rd shoot my dad bought me a Marlin 795 w/ Simmons 4x32 and at my third seed I shot Rifleman with it. I am glad I was able to use my own rifle to get my score.
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Beastmode44 on March 16, 2011, 01:21:00 AM
I would agree on the rim-fire being better just for sake of price at 25 meters. With about nine AS under my belt, I have used a .22 LR at 8 of them. My first appleseed i used a mini-14, and spent a ton on ammo. Ever since i've used my ruger 10-22. HOWEVER! At the last one, I decided to do a reality check. I asked myself the question, "which gun am I defending myself with and should be able to use proficiently?" Well, as obvious, a semi-auto was a gimme, and my AR-15 was choice numero uno. Therefore, I practiced with it until I got rifleman. (P.S., this only took one page of sighter squares and one AQT to getta 225.) Anyhow, it is good to know that you are proficiant with your battle rifle, :--- not just your chipmunk killer. ;) So just to put things into reality, I would extremely recommend using both.
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Mark Davis on March 16, 2011, 01:42:36 AM
The skills learned on one rifle readily transfer to another, but don't neglect either one.
Just because I shoot my 10-22 out to 400 yards with horrifically large groups, than doesn't keep me from making sub one minute groups at 400 with a certain centerfire bolt gun that hangs out in my safe most the time.
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Beastmode44 on March 17, 2011, 10:40:04 PM
Familiarity does effect that though. Especially in stressful and demanding situations.
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: TN_Dadx5 on March 28, 2011, 01:52:23 PM
I shot my first appleseed with a scoped Ruger 10/22 (old eyes) that I had done the usual fixes and scored 219 and then 228 on Sunday.  My eldest daughter shot her first 'seed with a similar 10/22 and scored rifleman (I forget the exact score).  My eldest son used an old Iver Johnson Carbine that caused him much grief with FTEs.  His next attempt at Rifleman was hampered by a range fire shutting down our day (NG with tracers on next range).  My youngest daughter has been getting used to a Savage Cub bolt (with the AccuTrigger) and if I can feed her the rounds fast enough, she's liable to make rifleman.

Semi's make the task a lot simpler, but either can get a determined operator past 210.
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: DBoller on April 06, 2011, 01:11:14 PM
I shot and still shoot a Marlin 60. I think it's probably the best deal, although the only downside is the tubefed magazine( although an instructor showed me how to make a speed loader by taking a long straw and taping the end of it, then you just have to put your bullets in it upside down then take the rod out and dump in the ammo.) I forgot to mention that it was a semi-auto(duh on my part), a 795 would be good to, because it's basically the same thing except with a clip magazine. It's also super accurate once you get it dialed in the only way I can miss is if I mess up or I put some bad ammo in it. I have a simmons scope on it, I also use wolf ammo in it, although every gun likes different ammo. Hope that helps. DBoller
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Shooterer on April 06, 2011, 03:55:34 PM
I shoot my 10-22 out to 400 yards with horrifically large groups,

I use Wolf MT, 40gr @ 1050 fps
@ 100 yd I have a 7" drop
@ 200 yd I have a 55" drop
@ 250 yd I have to make a 96" correction

What is your sight adjustment at 400 yds?
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Mark Davis on April 06, 2011, 09:31:11 PM
At 426 my sights 78 minutes from bottem.
at 100 12 minutes from bottem.
so..66X4.25......275 inches of drop
from 100 yard zero
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: HectorFuego on April 11, 2011, 05:49:17 PM
I shot a 219 at my first Appleseed using a pre-WWII vintage Winchester 69A bolt gun with a peep sight.  It's been in my family for 65 years and I've been shooting it for over 50.  It's my oldest, most reliable friend. 

My goal now is to break 210 using my 03A3 Springfield.

Guess I'm a bolt-gun guy.

Hector
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: DBoller on June 18, 2011, 07:39:57 PM
I know this is a little of topic but some people were talking about the price of ammo. If you really want to shoot a lot of centerfire I would recommend reloading your own ammo. If you do it right you can have some really high quality and highly accurate ammo for less than you would normally pay:). Also if you need some ammo and you have the supplies on hand you don't need drive to the store or order some, you can just load some up and your ready to go.
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: DBoller on June 18, 2011, 07:43:50 PM
Also it might not always be cheaper so I would recommend doing some research on the type of ammo your thinking of loading up, but it normally will.
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Dougum on June 18, 2011, 10:20:03 PM
I agree I reload most of my center fire ammo by the way does any one have a .410 bore loader? Just bought a .410 and would like to reload for squirrel season. Mans gotta eat sumthin' good.

Doug :---
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Kick-in-the-pants on October 04, 2011, 01:16:51 PM
Well I shot at my first even in Wilmington OH with a Marlin 880SS bolt gun with a Bushnell 3-9x40 scope.  It's very likely that I was focusing too hard on getting a perfect shot off that I wasn't able to get all my shots off before the time ran out... but for stage II and III, more often than not, I ran out of time. 

I aim to try again with a limb saver on my rifle to see if the extra length helps out and hopefully the weather will be more cooperative... it was in the higher 90's!  Sweat running into your eyes doesn't help you shoot straight! :slap:
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: oladcock on October 04, 2011, 03:25:36 PM
Yep, we just had a young man, maybe 14 or 15 turning in 180's and 190's with a bolt gun at Lubbock this weekend. He'll get it figured out! :)...O.L.
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Glasshunter on October 04, 2011, 03:54:34 PM
I just went to my 3rd Appleseed and finally qualified with a score of 220.  I already owned a 10/22 and an AR in .223 and I have shot both at Appleseed events.  I never attempted an AQT with a bolt action because I felt I would struggle with the time, particularly the 55 seconds allowed for the sitting position.  Inititally my 10/22 was stock, but I ended up making some modifications to it that made the rifle a better rifle for me.  The stock on the 10/22 was small for my frame so I changed to a Christie, which is readily adjustable to fit me.  In addition, I changed out the trigger group to improve the pull. I also added a bolt latch and a magazine release that are much easier to manipulate than the stock Ruger's.  I also scoped it (my eyes are getting older).  All of these things improved the accuracy, operability and dependability of the rifle, which in turn allowed me to shoot the courses of fire in the alloted time without stressing out.  All of these things contributed to me finally earning my qualification.  However, I would not have been able to do it, even then if I had not finally figured out how to establish my NPOA from each position.  I can't stress how important this one factor is.  A word on other calibers - shooting them can get expensive when you burn up 400 rounds at an event.  Throw in a couple hundred more for practice and it starts to add up.   
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Charles McKinley on October 25, 2011, 01:14:30 AM
I started AS with a 10/22.  After 4 shoots I finally scored Rifleman this weekend with a 212.  I then shot a 217 and a 228 with a Mosberg 802 Plinkster bolt with clips (it comes with only a single shot adapter).  I had put about 500 rounds throught the bolt in the little over a month that I had it.  I had added about 2 inches to the stock and a sling.  I put up a review soon.  It is just over $130 at Dunhams and you have to order the magazines from Mossberg.
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Kick-in-the-pants on October 31, 2011, 03:08:32 PM
Last night, despite some trigger problems and one shot at the wrong target, I scored rifleman with my Marlin bolt gun.  I still had trouble getting all my shots off sitting, but the GI sling (vs regular sling) made a HUGE difference when I wasn't standing.  I'm still having a hard time believing it... BUT, it can be done... apparently. :D (It's probably just harder... but since I've only used a bolt gun, I can't speak from experience.)

K.I.T.P.
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: TruTenacity on October 31, 2011, 03:38:54 PM
Last night, despite some trigger problems and one shot at the wrong target, I scored rifleman with my Marlin bolt gun.  I still had trouble getting all my shots off sitting, but the GI sling (vs regular sling) made a HUGE difference when I wasn't standing.  I'm still having a hard time believing it... BUT, it can be done... apparently. :D (It's probably just harder... but since I've only used a bolt gun, I can't speak from experience.)

K.I.T.P.

Congratulations!  Not an easy task.
Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: Wagon on April 21, 2015, 08:03:47 PM
I shoot a CZ 512 in my first AS last year, after I got qualified on Sunday, I tried couple more AQTs with a CZ 452 Scout, I failed to complete all shots in Stage 2 and 3.

Last weekend I went to my 2nd AS with the same CZ 452 Scout.   On Saturday I was still unable to complete all 10rouds in Stage 2, but on Sunday I kept myself busy with the bolt action and eventually I was able to complete all stages, and have scored >210 in three AQTs

I am not a good shooter myself, but it can still be done with a bolt gun; however it is much easier to shoot with a semi-auto without a doubt.

Title: Re: Bolt or Semi?
Post by: 42769vette on April 22, 2015, 12:25:04 AM
I'll admit to being the odd ball.  I shoot much much better with a cz 452 than any semi auto.  I've shot in 3 shoots with a 10-22 with a high score of 190 and average of 170ish.  I've shot in lots of shoots with a 452 with a high score in the upper 240's and a average of 230 ish.