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Bolt or Semi?

Started by Dougum, November 14, 2010, 10:45:21 PM

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Dougum

November 14, 2010, 10:45:21 PM
I've been to one Appleseed and I saw a great variance in choices of rifles. Bolts and Semis. Which was your first rifle and why'd you choose it. Mine was a bolt with a heavy barrel. It was the only one I had and it offered greater accuracy. I found that I could shoot as fast and more accurate than most of the semis on the line. I'd be glad to hear your first AS rifle choice and I'm sure the others would too.  :---

Bolt Gunner
Love your country, but never trust its government.

-- Robert A. Heinlein

"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"

-- George Washington

You say drake I say Brantley gilbert

You say T-Pain I say Jason Aldean

You say Kanye I say randy houser

You say Pink I say Kenny Chesney

You say Pop I scream COUNTRY

You say Justin Bieber I rip your head off

ACP230

#1
November 14, 2010, 10:57:06 PM
I used a bolt-action a Winchester 52 target rifle for my first Appleseed.  Later I tried a Remington 541T HB with a scope.
Last time it was a Ruger 10/22 with a target barrel, a Fajen stock and a scope. 

The older I get the better a scoped semiauto looks.   

GoldFish

#2
November 14, 2010, 11:12:08 PM
My first AS rifle was a Savage 64SS, which is also the rifle I scored Rifleman with.  Good rifle with a pretty decent price tag.
However, I prefer a good 10/22 with either a scope or Tech-Sights. :)
"Freedom is preserved by those who die for it, but it will not survive unless people are willing to live for it."
-Boba Fett (The RWVA Instructor, not the Star Wars Bounty Hunter)

'Yes, I am a Rifleman, but I'm also a Ninja....and a Jedi.'

"Integrity first, service before self, and excellence in all we do."

"Remember, my opinion on the totem pole of life is somewhere below whale s***..." -Chris Costa

"The more you care about something, the deeper the fight will come from within."  -Travis Haley

42          ΙΧΘΥΣ           كافر           MOÉ...ΩN É...ABE         αδάμαÏ, 

Merc, Mr. Fishy, Goober, Achmed, Cornflake, FBC, Tabilasco, Mowhawk 1 Alpha

What we do in life echoes in Eternity

Pvt.Joker

#3
November 15, 2010, 12:37:18 AM Last Edit: December 26, 2010, 04:46:12 PM by 753x0
My first (appleseed) rifle was a borrowed Marlin  795 w/ tech-sights.

Shot 221 on my first AQT.

What I really love about this is that it is NOT an equipment game. If you can't do it with a rack-grade rifle, work on the 6 steps.
"The battlefields of history are littered with the bones of those, who, at the dawn of victory, sat down to rest; and, resting, died."   
"We can't guarantee success in this war, but we can do something better. We can deserve it."
-John Adams, in a letter to his wife, Abigail.

Old Dog

#4
November 15, 2010, 07:17:34 AM
M1A.  The M1A I'd owned almost 30 years.  I'd like to do it with my M1 Garand one of these days, or maybe one of the AR15's (with or without the .22 conversion kit).
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

Oleg Volk

#5
November 15, 2010, 09:06:11 AM
I'd suggest semi. Might as well use the training to get used to the type of rifle you'd use for defense.

Andre

#6
November 15, 2010, 09:15:25 AM
My choice was determined by three factors - cost, range restrictions, and AS recommendations.  I had the opportunity to travel to a couple of possible shoots, which started me calculating a cost comparison of ammo.  I found the savings of .22lr over my other options (considering 2 or 3 events) meant I could buy a 10/22 (the recommended LTR) for less than the savings in ammo.  :)    One of those options was a bolt action in 17 HMR.  Then I decided to shoot at the closest event, which was a .22 rimfire only event.  Therefore, the 10/22 was the logical choice for me.  However, somewhere down the line, I might just pick up a bolt action for the AQT and see if I can meet the challenge it presents. 


ACP230,

I shot with the scope, having first tried the stock Ruger sights and then the Tech Sights.  Eyesight (or lack of it  ;) ) was the deciding factor.  Later, I decided to give the Tech Sights a try again.  If "older eyes" is a concern of yours, I did a post on my experience on that challenge which you might find helpful : http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=18329.0  .  It was something I needed to do for many reasons, one being a desire to shoot the M1 Garand at Rifleman level, because marksmanship matters.   :~

Andre

The Wolfhound

#7
November 21, 2010, 09:51:54 PM
Bring the rifle you have, so I shot a brand new bolt action CZ 452 in .22WMR.  My other rifles were tied up with other family members.  Meeting the timing requirements with a bolt action is not something I recommend trying unless you are a seasoned shooter.  Learning to operate the bolt with speed complicates the other learning that goes on at Appleseed and the trigger release and follow through is different.  Is it doable? Oh Yeah, but for newer shooters, I cannot recommend a semi-automatic strongly enough.  With more Applesseds clearly in my future, I added more magazine fed semi-autos to supply more family members and to be loaners.

Wheeler44

#8
November 21, 2010, 09:59:35 PM
Having seen (and coached) many shooters on their way to Rifleman using bolt actions....I say it ain't nuthin' if you don't make it sumpthin'..I know for a fact that it has been done many times with bolties.....Bolties rule.

W44
"Appleseed,  putting the second amendment into the hands of American citizens."     -Mrs. Wheeler

"We intend to produce men who are able to light a fire for Liberty in men's minds, and make them the finest rifle marksmanship instructors on the planet."   -Son of Martha

JustJeff

#9
November 21, 2010, 10:29:55 PM
The first rifle I used for Appleseed was a Marlin bolt-action I'd borrowed from a buddy.  I did fairly well, having not shot in years (189 high on the weekend).  Since then, I bought (at the suggestion of a redhat mentor) a Marlin 795, which is the rifle I shot Rifleman with.  I'm contemplating using the Marlin bolt-action again, just to say I did it with a bolt-action too. 
Your version of "ineffective" does not necessarily reflect the truth....
Having been "ineffectively" taught to the Rifleman Standard and having been "ineffectively" taught to teach others to the Rifleman Standard, I believe I prefer the "ineffective" over the other choice.

Castle Mountain

#10
November 21, 2010, 11:21:44 PM

Bolt Gunner,

I am interested in knowing please a detailed description of the bolt rifle you refer too.
You speak of its great speed as being comprable to a semi. Did you shoot a rifle man
score higher than 210 and earned your rifleman's badge? If so, what was your highest
score with that bolt rifle. If your bolt rifle is that fast I think everyone would be interested
in knowing what it is please?


Best regards,

CM


Quote from: Bolt Gunner on November 14, 2010, 10:45:21 PM
I've been to one Appleseed and I saw a great variance in choices of rifles. Bolts and Semis. Which was your first rifle and why'd you choose it. Mine was a bolt with a heavy barrel. It was the only one I had and it offered greater accuracy. I found that I could shoot as fast and more accurate than most of the semis on the line. I'd be glad to hear your first AS rifle choice and I'm sure the others would too.  :---

Bolt Gunner
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam- will find a way or I will make one".
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."  one who has not qualified himself with the M-16 may not be considered to be a responsible citizen."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

"Terrorism is the best political weapon, for nothing drives people harder than a fear of sudden death."
-- Adolf Hitler (1889-1945) German Nazi Dictator
 

"Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in

Wheeler44

#11
November 21, 2010, 11:39:18 PM
When my son (then 15) earned his patch he used a Savage bolt .22 with a scope. The last models before the accu-trigger, it has a trigger pull greater than my trigger pull scale can measure ...  The one thing that held him back was going  back and spotting his last shot with his scope....When he was coached beyond that he easily scored Rifleman.

W44
"Appleseed,  putting the second amendment into the hands of American citizens."     -Mrs. Wheeler

"We intend to produce men who are able to light a fire for Liberty in men's minds, and make them the finest rifle marksmanship instructors on the planet."   -Son of Martha

Wade

#12
November 22, 2010, 12:23:57 AM
My first Appleseed was a Riflemans boot camp @ Deviila TX 11/07 My Rifle M-1 Garand (ammo did not cost as much as it does now) In hindsight I wish I had bought a shooters jacket or at lest elbow pads %) :wall: medical tape and big bandages will work in place of the elbow pads but by the time I was using them it was abit late  :o ;D the Guy ending up handing me his LTR intell I was ready to go back to my Garand. If he had not handing me his LTR I would have kept shooting the Garand ,,and yes my elbow's are abit calloused from that.

Wade

Got Tired of looking for a Rifle Range So we Dug one up!
WOOF!
4 box's #1 the soap box#2 the letter box #3 the ballot box #4 the cartridge box, The founding fathers picked up the Cartridge box so that WE could use the first 3,,IMO If you don't use those 3 then you dishonour the founding Fathers !

yellowhousejake

#13
November 22, 2010, 12:41:26 AM
I have seen many of each on the line. IMO, the bolt action is not a hindrance to shooting Rifleman in any way. No one thinks 55 seconds is enough time, until they have shot a few AQTs, then they discover that 55 seconds is plenty. The bolt shooters get maybe 4-5 rounds off first time though, where semi shooters get 7-8. By Sunday everyone is getting all 10 shots off, bolt actions included.

I would go as far as to say that it helps on stage one as the bolt shooters don't try to force a perfect hold for 6 to 10 shots on their first few AQTs.

YHJ

PS. I've seen CZ rifles at several shoots, it is a very very fast bolt. I plan to ask Minus1 to let me try his next time I work with him.
I have removed my email from my profile to stop the mod reports. If you need a Libertyseed scheduled you will now have to contact me on the Libertyseed forum.

YHJ

Castle Mountain

#14
November 22, 2010, 12:55:34 AM

No arugment from me YHJ, I just want to know what that mystery rifle that Bolt Gun used happens to be.
If his bolt is that fast, then what rifle is it one? I know well what shooting a bolt gun takes, I shot my Rifleman score
with a Savage. I know there are better bolt rifles, I just would like to know what makes his rifle that fast
and knowing its make might coax me into trying another one.

CM


Quote from: yellowhousejake on November 22, 2010, 12:41:26 AM
I have seen many of each on the line. IMO, the bolt action is not a hindrance to shooting Rifleman in any way. No one thinks 55 seconds is enough time, until they have shot a few AQTs, then they discover that 55 seconds is plenty. The bolt shooters get maybe 4-5 rounds off first time though, where semi shooters get 7-8. By Sunday everyone is getting all 10 shots off, bolt actions included.

I would go as far as to say that it helps on stage one as the bolt shooters don't try to force a perfect hold for 6 to 10 shots on their first few AQTs.

YHJ

PS. I've seen CZ rifles at several shoots, it is a very very fast bolt. I plan to ask Minus1 to let me try his next time I work with him.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam- will find a way or I will make one".
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."  one who has not qualified himself with the M-16 may not be considered to be a responsible citizen."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

"Terrorism is the best political weapon, for nothing drives people harder than a fear of sudden death."
-- Adolf Hitler (1889-1945) German Nazi Dictator
 

"Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in

ACP230

#15
November 22, 2010, 09:48:21 AM
I think the fastest bolt would be a straight pull like the Browning.
That type of action is used in Biathlon rifles just because it is fast and simple to operate.   

Garand69

#16
November 22, 2010, 09:57:26 AM Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 10:02:17 AM by Garand69
Quote from: Bolt Gunner on November 14, 2010, 10:45:21 PM
I've been to one Appleseed and I saw a great variance in choices of rifles. Bolts and Semis. Which was your first rifle and why'd you choose it. Mine was a bolt with a heavy barrel. It was the only one I had and it offered greater accuracy. I found that I could shoot as fast and more accurate than most of the semis on the line. I'd be glad to hear your first AS rifle choice and I'm sure the others would too.  :---

Bolt Gunner

Great question Bolt Gunner,

I believe you directed this towards the younger shooters. so I will answer from the perspective of my 3 sons...

My Oldest son (Wetfoot) was 11 at his first Appleseed and he used a Ruger 10/22 with a scope. He had several issues with the rifle, mainly ammo issues. You see his 1st Appleseed was also my first Appleseed, and most of my .22lr triggertime was just plinking so I always bought the "bulk packed" .22lr ammo. Well to say the least, he was very aggravated at the first couple of Appleseeds (the first was pouring rain the whole time!) Then the Shoot Boss at one of his first shoots (The Guy) got us straightened out on ammo, and that problem was solved (ammo does not have to be expensive, just reliable and consistant in your rifle!). Then his next issue... THE SCOPE!!! Just like Wheeler44 said, my son also started using the scope as a spotter between shots. This would mess him all up. He would throw one shot out of the scoring ring, then get frustrated and shoot poorly for the rest of the AQT. That added at least two more Appleseeds to his Path to Rifleman. He is now using a 10/22 with tech-sights so that he can acheive Rifleman with "iron sights" as well. When he does that he will get a chance to shoot an AQT with an AR 15. Here he is at his 2nd or 3rd Appleseed... Boy did "The Guy" harrass him when he saw this picture!! He wasn't wrapped in the sling!! &) &)





My second son (M1) was a bit younger at his first Appleseed. He was 9 yrs old and for the first few Appleseeds he used an old single shot Stevens bolt-action. While he couldn't load fast enough for stages 1 & 2, he did manage to get 10 shots into the target during stages 1 & 4. Now that he has the fundamental skills down pat, he has moved up to the Ruger 10/22 w/scope that his older brother used. He is not quite strong enough to shoot standing yet, but from a supported position his best is a 209!! Next year we will work on the positions a bit more. here he is at at first Appleseed 9/09 Chillicothe IL



My third Son (M2) was only five at his first shoot in Chillicothe Illinois. So he needed a much smaller rifle than his older brothers, so he shot a Henry Mini-Bolt single shot bolt action. He is working on the fundamentals for now, and when he has a good target, he gets to shoot the Ruger 10/22 for a bit. BUT! He is still young and does not conserve ammo well with the 10/22. Which is why we call him "M2", which is the "Automatic" version of the M1 Carbine  **)
He first Appleseed was also at Chilli in 09....




Garand69

42

WSMR 03-10 ...SAPPER STEEL!!!!

"Don't tell people how to do things, tell them what to do and let them surprise you with their results." - General George S. Patton Jr

"One can covet success or one can covet being Right, but if he covets both, he will achieve neither" - Stimey


Do not fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have war......Let it start here.

God grant me the courage not to give up what I think is right, even though I think it is HOPELESS.
-Chester W. Nimitz

Dougum

#17
November 22, 2010, 07:15:08 PM
As an answer to what gun I was using It was a Savage Mark II FV. This model has a very thick barrel and a lack of sights. I used a Bushnell 3-9x32 Rimfire scope. I bought 2 after market clips for it (10 rounders). Ammo wise I was using Federal Value Pack High Velocities. It performs well in the rifle. I did not score a rifleman at my first appleseed and I blame the rain. It kept raining and the wind wouldn't stop so I think I was just a little tensed up. Not to mention my father forgetting to pack the tent. What a disaster! I think my best score was a 189. I had a better target but I shot the wrong number of shots on each side of the target so it didn't count. Oh well.

Thanks For all the replies

             Bolt Gunner
Love your country, but never trust its government.

-- Robert A. Heinlein

"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"

-- George Washington

You say drake I say Brantley gilbert

You say T-Pain I say Jason Aldean

You say Kanye I say randy houser

You say Pink I say Kenny Chesney

You say Pop I scream COUNTRY

You say Justin Bieber I rip your head off

Altarboy

#18
November 22, 2010, 10:17:00 PM
i shot a 216 with a savage mk2
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."         -U.S Constitution  2nd amendment

Dougum

#19
November 23, 2010, 09:12:01 PM
Nice! I've been practicing for the rifleman. sounds like you got 'er good.
Love your country, but never trust its government.

-- Robert A. Heinlein

"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"

-- George Washington

You say drake I say Brantley gilbert

You say T-Pain I say Jason Aldean

You say Kanye I say randy houser

You say Pink I say Kenny Chesney

You say Pop I scream COUNTRY

You say Justin Bieber I rip your head off

Dougum

#20
December 24, 2010, 05:18:52 PM
Merry Christmas Y'all O0

Doug
Love your country, but never trust its government.

-- Robert A. Heinlein

"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"

-- George Washington

You say drake I say Brantley gilbert

You say T-Pain I say Jason Aldean

You say Kanye I say randy houser

You say Pink I say Kenny Chesney

You say Pop I scream COUNTRY

You say Justin Bieber I rip your head off

Mark Davis

#21
December 24, 2010, 11:36:07 PM
Castle Mountain,
I have shot with the Savage mkII FVT, it is equipped with aperture sights front and rear, heavy barrel, flimsy moulded stock, and accutrigger.

The bolt can be operated from position by pivoting the palm of the trigger hand, giving the fingers circular up and back motion the pivoting the hand forward with the fingers sweeping forward and down.

The magazine will not free fall out. So at mag change time I operate the release catch with trigger hand and bend my forward hand back to strip the old mag out between thumb and fore finger, works best with ten round magazine.

Had the mechanics down before going back to the six steps where in my eagerness to work the bolt followthrough was ignored.
So I made myself wait for the recoil impulse to subside, after checking NPOA then work the bolt.

Rifleman scores then came on my target.

Dougum

#22
December 28, 2010, 10:00:47 PM
For some reason my Mk II doesn't have any sights except the Bushnell scope I put on it. Also mine don't got the accutrigger for some reason. Also my mags drop out with a touch of the release. Just might be a cheap mag er somthin'. I do agree about the working of the bolt. Not sayin' anything bad about your knowledge Clod, sorry if it seems that way. You probably know more about the gun than I do.

Bolt :---
Love your country, but never trust its government.

-- Robert A. Heinlein

"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"

-- George Washington

You say drake I say Brantley gilbert

You say T-Pain I say Jason Aldean

You say Kanye I say randy houser

You say Pink I say Kenny Chesney

You say Pop I scream COUNTRY

You say Justin Bieber I rip your head off

Mark Davis

#23
December 29, 2010, 12:02:18 AM
Bolt Gunner, I your mag falls out then mine should too.
A bit of abrasives may be called for!

Dougum

#24
January 01, 2011, 12:07:19 AM
That might help it out a little. Just make sure you re-paint or re-blue it. I just got mine out yesterday and my almost brand new mags had rusted up a little in the gun case. Also wondering if anyone out there has achieved even a Marksman with a single shot .22. I just inherited my GreatGranddad's old Ward ( ^:)^) and would like to try to shoot marksman with it.

Thanks,

Bolt :---
Love your country, but never trust its government.

-- Robert A. Heinlein

"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"

-- George Washington

You say drake I say Brantley gilbert

You say T-Pain I say Jason Aldean

You say Kanye I say randy houser

You say Pink I say Kenny Chesney

You say Pop I scream COUNTRY

You say Justin Bieber I rip your head off

Wheeler44

#25
January 01, 2011, 12:15:40 AM
QuoteAlso wondering if anyone out there has achieved even a Marksman with a single shot .22. I just inherited my GreatGranddad's old Ward ( ) and would like to try to shoot marksman with it.
Why limit yourself to what others have done? With the right .22 single shot bolt gun Rifleman is attainable . A single shot adapter in a CZ makes it easy, relatively speaking of course.

W44
"Appleseed,  putting the second amendment into the hands of American citizens."     -Mrs. Wheeler

"We intend to produce men who are able to light a fire for Liberty in men's minds, and make them the finest rifle marksmanship instructors on the planet."   -Son of Martha

Wade

#26
January 01, 2011, 01:58:43 AM
I have personaly timed and scored an AQT that hit Rifleman score done with a singal shot .22,,,a friend of mine forgot his mags for a .22 rifle and tought well what the heck "I wonder if it can be done" .




Wade
Got Tired of looking for a Rifle Range So we Dug one up!
WOOF!
4 box's #1 the soap box#2 the letter box #3 the ballot box #4 the cartridge box, The founding fathers picked up the Cartridge box so that WE could use the first 3,,IMO If you don't use those 3 then you dishonour the founding Fathers !

Johnnyappleseed

#27
January 01, 2011, 01:47:29 PM
CM
The fastest centerfire bolt gun I have observed is the Swiss K39 -- had a Marine (not active) score RM with it at Mingus 06 -- ironically he could not score RM with a M14 at same event  ;D

I managed a 207 with pre64 mod 70 with surplus 3006 -- although it's possible the LB was a bit slow on calling cease fire  ;)
That being said all other things equal a semi will beat a bolt every time .
Happy New Year
JA
Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.
Calvin Coolidge

Wheeler44

#28
January 01, 2011, 02:16:43 PM
In real world shooting, with a centerfire rifle it is possible to shoot a bolt action to the point where the barrel is too hot for accurate shooting just as fast as with a semi...Of course training and practice is most important.

The Rangers of northern Canada are having Lee Enfields made new for them in 7.62x51 because they've worn out the old .303s ...And because no semi-auto will function in the extreme cold as reliably as a bolty.

I believe that the current record (and it's stood for quite some time) is 38 rounds into an 18" black at 300 yards in one minute with a Lee Enfield....That is six reloads from the top using chargers (stripper clips). Google youtube for Lee Enfield "Mad Minute"...slow is smooth...smooth is fast.. practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice does..It ain't the bow or the arrow it's the injun...

Happy New Year.

W44
"Appleseed,  putting the second amendment into the hands of American citizens."     -Mrs. Wheeler

"We intend to produce men who are able to light a fire for Liberty in men's minds, and make them the finest rifle marksmanship instructors on the planet."   -Son of Martha

06en

#29
January 01, 2011, 02:28:40 PM
Quote from: Wheeler44 on January 01, 2011, 02:16:43 PM
In real world shooting, with a centerfire rifle it is possible to shoot a bolt action to the point where the barrel is too hot for accurate shooting just as fast as with a semi...Of course training and practice is most important...

...And because no semi-auto will function in the extreme cold as reliably as a bolty.

...slow is smooth...smooth is fast.. practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice does..It ain't the bow or the arrow it's the injun...

Happy New Year.

W44

Well said Wheeler! There is nothing like being able to put shoots down range with the skills of a Rifleman, using the time tested and proven bolt-action-rifle. It is tons of fun  O0  .
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