Author Topic: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch  (Read 10544 times)

Offline JoeZ

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WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« on: August 24, 2010, 12:51:08 AM »
Hello all,

First off let's go over the qualifications for the Full Distance Patch.

Engage one D target at 100 yds in two minutes from the standing position with 10 rnds.
Engage one D target at 200 yds in 55 seconds transitioning from standing to seated with 2 and 8 rnds.
Engage one D target at 300 yds in 65 seconds transitioning from standing to prone with 2 and 8 rnds.
Engage one D target at 400 yds in five minutes from the prone position with 10 rnds. Points scored are double.
Record your hit locations on a "green coat" classification as a witness target.
Engage one D target at 500 yds in 1 minute with 10 rnds if available. Use any hit in the 4 or 5 to replace any prone hit/miss on the witness target.
Engage one D target at 600 yds in 1 minute with 10 rnds if available. Use any hit in the 4 or 5 to replace any prone hit/miss on the witness target.

Penalties are as follows:
Not using ball ammo -10 points
Not using a rack grade rifle -10 points.(Match grade will have a match barrel, match sights or scope, and match trigger; all others are "rack grade")
(The red is no longer applicable. There will be NO penalties what-so-ever!!!! It seems we can't handle it. I left the wording in the post for reference)

A score of 200 or higher earns the WI Full Distance Patch.

Modified in blue.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 02:31:04 PM by JoeZ »
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Offline JoeZ

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Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2010, 12:57:57 AM »
Now let's keep this updated with opportunities to earn this patch.

Oct 2-3 Racine WI
Oct 9-10 Lodi WI (Mogs is working this up so you all thank her)
Nov 6-7 Lodi WI (I hope we can get in here too)
Nov 20-21 Racine WI
"What is she, that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the Moon, elect as the sun, terrible as the army of a camp set in array?" Canticle of Canticles 6:9

Offline AFTERMATH

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Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2010, 03:13:35 AM »
? is the score still doubled on stage 4, so there is a potential of 250 points

Correct.
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Offline dragonfly

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Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2010, 08:53:09 AM »
How about Lacrosse in Dec. They have the range for it.

D-fly
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Offline Mogget

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Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2010, 08:59:00 AM »
Lodi won't have the opportunity to shoot all of the KD, at least this time around.  What we'll probably have is an opportunity to try out is just a couple of hours on the hi-power range -- probably enough time to shoot at 300 and 400 yards for a relatively small group.  Sunday is a big day for club members to use that range so we're not going to be able to tie it up for half the day. 

Nice work, though, for those ranges where we can.

Mogs

Offline Deacon

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Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2010, 09:42:45 AM »
Hey JoeZ,

That's a mighty fine looking patch!  Great job BrendaZ! 

That is a great idea and a "next" step for the shooter who has everything...well ok, for the shooter that already has a Rifleman patch.

The next step after the Full Distance Rifleman patch should be in the form of............ an ORANGE HAT!!! ~~:)

If you can shoot like that, then you need to teach!

Thanks again Joe!

Deacon

Offline willorith

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Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2010, 09:58:19 AM »
KD patches should only be available to IITs and above. If somebody wants one, they must step up.
We are but human.

Offline Deacon

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Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2010, 10:14:41 AM »
KD patches should only be available to IITs and above. If somebody wants one, they must step up.

I like your thinking Willorith!

Offline MeanStreaker

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Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2010, 11:43:42 AM »
Good stuff.  Did you guys get that patch made locally?

Any chance of getting just the square "Full Distance" made up that people could put right above their current Rifleman patch?

I'd be in for buying some for our guys.
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Offline JoeZ

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Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2010, 12:00:22 PM »
OK....LaCrosse Dec 4-5 (I haven't been there yet :-[) I'll make sure we have two RH's there armed with patches. Let's not squander opportunity.

Lodi.......ugh...me thinks I'll join the club and take Sunday's shooters over to the KD as guests....shhhhh......

MeanStreaker.....my wife..BrendaZ...is making the patches. She certainly can make a smaller "Full Distance" add on to a regular rifleman patch. Just let me know.
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Offline JoeZ

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Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2010, 12:03:49 PM »
Thanks George and Aftermath. I will modify posting.


Willorith....I'll talk over your suggestion with our committee...
« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 12:19:55 PM by JoeZ »
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Offline EEL

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Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2010, 12:46:14 PM »
I'm with williworth   O0
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Offline Chris Z

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Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2010, 03:50:13 PM »
As JoeZ was trying to impress upon the shooters as Hubertus a few weekends ago, shooting rifleman at 25m is just the beginning.  It should open the door to what being a rifleman is all about.  It's great to see the opportunity to shoot and prove yourself at the riflemans 1/4 mile.  Its like riding a bike if your not moving forward you'll fall over.  Thank you for all those involved. 

cz

Offline sparks1

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Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2010, 07:42:09 PM »
OOOOOOOH...FD at LaCrosse in Dec. I'm athinnin I'll try that one out. Just to do the distance shootin. patch is an extra bonus.

Hmmm...M1a or Ar-15  decisions, decisions. Ah what the heck>>>>>BOTH.
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Offline martin

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Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2010, 08:19:24 PM »



 Thanks Joe, whatta great idea! I can't wait to try for the patch!
Martin

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Offline eaglescouter

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Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2010, 08:21:58 PM »
Penalty for not using "Ball ammo". 

Doesn't the military identify all rifle ammo as 'ball'? 
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Offline dragonfly

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Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2010, 08:46:13 PM »
Military rifle team's use the better match HP not ball. Not all military ammo is ball ; AP, tracer, ball , match, etc.

D-fly
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 10:28:18 AM by dragonfly »
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Offline sparks1

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Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2010, 09:13:53 PM »
Interesting post by Dragonfly...

I always thought that "ball" ammo was FMJ. Nothing to do with the powder, just no hollow points/lead tipped/ match bullets.

I reload and have had some dirty ball powders , also some dirty extruded (rod) powders. Makes a difference using magnum primers too. ( Some say to use magnum primers for all ball powder because it is harder to ignite due to its physical characteristics.) Too bad...ball powder meters SO much easier than extruded. Metering is nice as it beats weighing every charge. Especially when one is loading up a few hundred or so.

Still... it's only a 10 point deduction...the ammo alone could make this up over the COF. Those 168 grain SMK's really fly nice in the wind compared to a 150gr flat base bullet ( the BC is better) ans drift is less.
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Offline colycat

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Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2010, 09:16:57 PM »
Rifleman at known distance, per RWVA.

100 yards, 2 minutes
200 yards 55 seconds
300 yards 65 seconds
400 yards 5 minutes

All shot on the D Army target

Rifleman score is 200.  

No penalties for what you bring to shoot.  You should be able to it with a standard military rifle.  But you run with what you brung.  BTW the come ups for 22 cal are about 62 minutes @ 400 yrds.  Good luck
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100

Offline JoeZ

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Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2010, 09:32:21 PM »
OK folks, by ball I mean typical moa accuracy of military ball ammo.
The point is to equalize out those using uber-accurate set-ups so as to not trigger an equipment race. One of the founding principles of the Appleseed program was that we all can do this with rack grade rifles and ball ammo. Let's keep this cheap and keep our rifles as reliable as we can. For example....if your rifle and cheap reloads are a 2 moa combination that's fine, no penalty. If your sorting brass and bullets and tweaking your trigger with a quarter ounce pull....maybe you need to go somewhere else. Let's not be too literal with the "rules". They are guidelines really :)
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Offline eaglescouter

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Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2010, 09:38:49 PM »
JoeZ, not trying to nitpick, we just want to understand the guidelines that you clearly put a lot of work into.

http://www.midwayusa.com/guntecdictionary.exe/showterm?TermID=1105
Definition for "ball ammunition" : A term used in the military service applied to a round of small arms ammunition consisting of a cartridge case, a primer, powder, and a full metal jacket bullet.
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Offline AFTERMATH

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Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2010, 10:19:11 PM »
Lodi won't have the opportunity to shoot all of the KD, at least this time around.  What we'll probably have is an opportunity to try out is just a couple of hours on the hi-power range -- probably enough time to shoot at 300 and 400 yards for a relatively small group.  Sunday is a big day for club members to use that range so we're not going to be able to tie it up for half the day. 

Nice work, though, for those ranges where we can.

Mogs

Perhaps, you can for at least one of the events, have it arranged to be on Saturday.  Make it known to those who've previously scored Rifleman.
And have an extra RH or two available.  Just a thought.  It would get arround the Sunday issue.


As to BrendaZ; a fine job on those patches!  O0 
"We intend to produce men who are able to light a fire for Liberty in men's minds, and make them the finest rifle marksmanship Instructors on the planet." - Son of Martha

"Tyrants rise and fall, but tyranny lasts forever." -Me

[What kind of megalomaniac quotes himself?]

Offline Blackdog

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Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2010, 11:19:18 PM »
OOOOOOOH...FD at LaCrosse in Dec. I'm athinnin I'll try that one out. .

Me too!  O0

Sounds like a great place to stretch the legs on a rebarreled M1.

And......LaCrosse is easily within striking distance for a cross-border expedition.  >:D
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 11:42:55 PM by Blackdog »

Offline Shooterer

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Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2010, 11:36:07 AM »
KD patches should only be available to IITs and above. If somebody wants one, they must step up.

I'm sorry, I disagree with this idea. I thought this project (appleseed) was about teaching, training and motivating the masses, not about decorating "club" members.

Jim
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Offline Deacon

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Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2010, 06:18:44 PM »
KD patches should only be available to IITs and above. If somebody wants one, they must step up.

I'm sorry, I disagree with this idea. I thought this project (appleseed) was about teaching, training and motivating the masses, not about decorating "club" members.

Jim

Jim's got a good point!  Jim has been a great support of Appleseed.  Not only has he been to at least 3 (??), but has brought out friends and family.  I know there are others that have been on the line because of Jim.  Just because Jim's hat may not be orange or red doesn't mean he shouldn't be able to earn the FD patch.
Heck, the way he shoots, there are a few things I could learn from him!


Offline dragonfly

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Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2010, 06:34:12 PM »
Lets keep it simple you shoot and qualify KD on D targets, you get a patch. We are promoting KD and the chance to do a KD AQT, at least for now is going to be rare  ;) .

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Offline sparks1

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Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2010, 06:35:51 PM »
I'm with Jim on this too. A rifleman is a rifleman is a rifleman. Hat or not...the purpose is to teach rifle skills. The only way to see that they are solidified is to shoot full distance.
The hat just means they have picked up the pail and are bailing. There are other ways to bail also, if you don't believe me ask Fred how you can help, but not instruct. I'm sure there is a chore that needs doin'.

Not all are cut from the instructor cloth, or may not like it. BUT...they may like to shoot and practice full distance to keep sharp. What's wrong with a patch to recognize this?

Just my opinion.

Sparks1
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Offline PHenry

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Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2010, 07:03:19 PM »
I will chime in here, completely uninvited, as it is one of my specialties.  >:D

The KD Clinic, as developed it here in Florida, is an instructor-only event. It is a two-day, intensive, long range shooting clinic aimed at people who are already well proficient with a center-fire rifle, and can be trusted with the advanced marksmanship skills presented. It was never intended for the "masses", and is offered as a reward for services rendered in our honorable cause.

We teach KD at events only to prove a point - that what we teach at 25M really does work out to greater distance and to offer the less proficient shooters something to strive for. The "class" session should not exceed 20 minutes and the shooting should take no more than 90 minutes or so, with enough time to get them back on the 25M line. It serves to create a "big boys" club, to which the rest of the shooters can aspire. It was never meant to actually teach long range skills, as there simply is not near enough time.

I am happy to share the POI we created here in FL, but as stated in the "package" that I send out - it was intended for Appleseeds instructors only. It is another great reason to step up and serve the program. The POI we are using here requires all of Sat AM for lecture and questions on the details of long range shooting, and then the rest of Saturday and all of Sunday (and I mean long, hard days) to complete. We have yet to get past 600M, and that is crackin the whip all day, both days.

The KDC accomplishes several key points:
Improves the marksmanship of our instructor cadre - making them more confident and better at passing on the tradition.
Improves instructor's ability to teach KD at events through personal experience and the real-world come ups that are gleaned from shooting at distance with different rifles / ammo.
Improves instructor's ability to work together on the line through greater "unit integrity" gained from a shared experience.

It also has the side benefit of offering a relaxed atmosphere (no attendees to worry over), some fun and a reward for service rendered.

I say keep it "in house" and anyone who wants some can attend a RBC or step up to instructing.  ..:..

I love the patch - it's a great idear. Might be a good item for RBCs as well as KDCs.  O0
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Offline dragonfly

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Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2010, 08:22:58 PM »
Hey, how about we look for a place for an RBC in WI.  ;) :cool2:  :~ :~ :~ :~ :~ :~ :~ :~ :~

D-fly
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Offline JoeZ

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Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2010, 09:49:06 PM »
D-fly....we can have one you know where anytime but hunting season. So Jan, Feb, March etc >:D are all open and as you all know it's virtually weather proof. We definitely will shoot to 600. We need an SI to go along with the idea. I thought we had an  SI   around     here ......    somewhere @)


P Henry...I've gone through what I think is your KD material and have altered what we do here because of it. I haven't discussed it yet with our group but I must say that your reasons all support greatly our need for KD but not necessarily the need to keep it "in house". We here need all the IIT's we can get especially if WI is going to double it's shoots (we tripled this year). Everything we do should be open to gaining IIT's.

Comments are most welcome....
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