Project Appleseed

Your Appleseed State Board => Wisconsin (Martin and Chewie aSC S. WI) => Topic started by: JoeZ on August 24, 2010, 12:51:08 AM

Title: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: JoeZ on August 24, 2010, 12:51:08 AM
Hello all,

First off let's go over the qualifications for the Full Distance Patch.

Engage one D target at 100 yds in two minutes from the standing position with 10 rnds.
Engage one D target at 200 yds in 55 seconds transitioning from standing to seated with 2 and 8 rnds.
Engage one D target at 300 yds in 65 seconds transitioning from standing to prone with 2 and 8 rnds.
Engage one D target at 400 yds in five minutes from the prone position with 10 rnds. Points scored are double.
Record your hit locations on a "green coat" classification as a witness target.
Engage one D target at 500 yds in 1 minute with 10 rnds if available. Use any hit in the 4 or 5 to replace any prone hit/miss on the witness target.
Engage one D target at 600 yds in 1 minute with 10 rnds if available. Use any hit in the 4 or 5 to replace any prone hit/miss on the witness target.

Penalties are as follows:
Not using ball ammo -10 points
Not using a rack grade rifle -10 points.(Match grade will have a match barrel, match sights or scope, and match trigger; all others are "rack grade")
(The red is no longer applicable. There will be NO penalties what-so-ever!!!! It seems we can't handle it. I left the wording in the post for reference)
A score of 200 or higher earns the WI Full Distance Patch.

Modified in blue.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: JoeZ on August 24, 2010, 12:57:57 AM
Now let's keep this updated with opportunities to earn this patch.

Oct 2-3 Racine WI
Oct 9-10 Lodi WI (Mogs is working this up so you all thank her)
Nov 6-7 Lodi WI (I hope we can get in here too)
Nov 20-21 Racine WI
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: AFTERMATH on August 24, 2010, 03:13:35 AM
? is the score still doubled on stage 4, so there is a potential of 250 points

Correct.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: dragonfly on August 24, 2010, 08:53:09 AM
How about Lacrosse in Dec. They have the range for it.

D-fly
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: Mogget on August 24, 2010, 08:59:00 AM
Lodi won't have the opportunity to shoot all of the KD, at least this time around.  What we'll probably have is an opportunity to try out is just a couple of hours on the hi-power range -- probably enough time to shoot at 300 and 400 yards for a relatively small group.  Sunday is a big day for club members to use that range so we're not going to be able to tie it up for half the day. 

Nice work, though, for those ranges where we can.

Mogs
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: Deacon on August 24, 2010, 09:42:45 AM
Hey JoeZ,

That's a mighty fine looking patch!  Great job BrendaZ! 

That is a great idea and a "next" step for the shooter who has everything...well ok, for the shooter that already has a Rifleman patch.

The next step after the Full Distance Rifleman patch should be in the form of............ an ORANGE HAT!!! ~~:)

If you can shoot like that, then you need to teach!

Thanks again Joe!

Deacon
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: willorith on August 24, 2010, 09:58:19 AM
KD patches should only be available to IITs and above. If somebody wants one, they must step up.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: Deacon on August 24, 2010, 10:14:41 AM
KD patches should only be available to IITs and above. If somebody wants one, they must step up.

I like your thinking Willorith!
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: MeanStreaker on August 24, 2010, 11:43:42 AM
Good stuff.  Did you guys get that patch made locally?

Any chance of getting just the square "Full Distance" made up that people could put right above their current Rifleman patch?

I'd be in for buying some for our guys.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: JoeZ on August 24, 2010, 12:00:22 PM
OK....LaCrosse Dec 4-5 (I haven't been there yet :-[) I'll make sure we have two RH's there armed with patches. Let's not squander opportunity.

Lodi.......ugh...me thinks I'll join the club and take Sunday's shooters over to the KD as guests....shhhhh......

MeanStreaker.....my wife..BrendaZ...is making the patches. She certainly can make a smaller "Full Distance" add on to a regular rifleman patch. Just let me know.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: JoeZ on August 24, 2010, 12:03:49 PM
Thanks George and Aftermath. I will modify posting.


Willorith....I'll talk over your suggestion with our committee...
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: EEL on August 24, 2010, 12:46:14 PM
I'm with williworth   O0
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: Chris Z on August 24, 2010, 03:50:13 PM
As JoeZ was trying to impress upon the shooters as Hubertus a few weekends ago, shooting rifleman at 25m is just the beginning.  It should open the door to what being a rifleman is all about.  It's great to see the opportunity to shoot and prove yourself at the riflemans 1/4 mile.  Its like riding a bike if your not moving forward you'll fall over.  Thank you for all those involved. 

cz
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: sparks1 on August 24, 2010, 07:42:09 PM
OOOOOOOH...FD at LaCrosse in Dec. I'm athinnin I'll try that one out. Just to do the distance shootin. patch is an extra bonus.

Hmmm...M1a or Ar-15  decisions, decisions. Ah what the heck>>>>>BOTH.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: martin on August 24, 2010, 08:19:24 PM



 Thanks Joe, whatta great idea! I can't wait to try for the patch!
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: eaglescouter on August 24, 2010, 08:21:58 PM
Penalty for not using "Ball ammo". 

Doesn't the military identify all rifle ammo as 'ball'? 
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: dragonfly on August 24, 2010, 08:46:13 PM
Military rifle team's use the better match HP not ball. Not all military ammo is ball ; AP, tracer, ball , match, etc.

D-fly
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: sparks1 on August 24, 2010, 09:13:53 PM
Interesting post by Dragonfly...

I always thought that "ball" ammo was FMJ. Nothing to do with the powder, just no hollow points/lead tipped/ match bullets.

I reload and have had some dirty ball powders , also some dirty extruded (rod) powders. Makes a difference using magnum primers too. ( Some say to use magnum primers for all ball powder because it is harder to ignite due to its physical characteristics.) Too bad...ball powder meters SO much easier than extruded. Metering is nice as it beats weighing every charge. Especially when one is loading up a few hundred or so.

Still... it's only a 10 point deduction...the ammo alone could make this up over the COF. Those 168 grain SMK's really fly nice in the wind compared to a 150gr flat base bullet ( the BC is better) ans drift is less.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: colycat on August 24, 2010, 09:16:57 PM
Rifleman at known distance, per RWVA.

100 yards, 2 minutes
200 yards 55 seconds
300 yards 65 seconds
400 yards 5 minutes

All shot on the D Army target

Rifleman score is 200.  

No penalties for what you bring to shoot.  You should be able to it with a standard military rifle.  But you run with what you brung.  BTW the come ups for 22 cal are about 62 minutes @ 400 yrds.  Good luck
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: JoeZ on August 24, 2010, 09:32:21 PM
OK folks, by ball I mean typical moa accuracy of military ball ammo.
The point is to equalize out those using uber-accurate set-ups so as to not trigger an equipment race. One of the founding principles of the Appleseed program was that we all can do this with rack grade rifles and ball ammo. Let's keep this cheap and keep our rifles as reliable as we can. For example....if your rifle and cheap reloads are a 2 moa combination that's fine, no penalty. If your sorting brass and bullets and tweaking your trigger with a quarter ounce pull....maybe you need to go somewhere else. Let's not be too literal with the "rules". They are guidelines really :)
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: eaglescouter on August 24, 2010, 09:38:49 PM
JoeZ, not trying to nitpick, we just want to understand the guidelines that you clearly put a lot of work into.

http://www.midwayusa.com/guntecdictionary.exe/showterm?TermID=1105
Definition for "ball ammunition" : A term used in the military service applied to a round of small arms ammunition consisting of a cartridge case, a primer, powder, and a full metal jacket bullet.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: AFTERMATH on August 24, 2010, 10:19:11 PM
Lodi won't have the opportunity to shoot all of the KD, at least this time around.  What we'll probably have is an opportunity to try out is just a couple of hours on the hi-power range -- probably enough time to shoot at 300 and 400 yards for a relatively small group.  Sunday is a big day for club members to use that range so we're not going to be able to tie it up for half the day. 

Nice work, though, for those ranges where we can.

Mogs

Perhaps, you can for at least one of the events, have it arranged to be on Saturday.  Make it known to those who've previously scored Rifleman.
And have an extra RH or two available.  Just a thought.  It would get arround the Sunday issue.


As to BrendaZ; a fine job on those patches!  O0 
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: Blackdog on August 24, 2010, 11:19:18 PM
OOOOOOOH...FD at LaCrosse in Dec. I'm athinnin I'll try that one out. .

Me too!  O0

Sounds like a great place to stretch the legs on a rebarreled M1.

And......LaCrosse is easily within striking distance for a cross-border expedition.  >:D
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: Shooterer on August 25, 2010, 11:36:07 AM
KD patches should only be available to IITs and above. If somebody wants one, they must step up.

I'm sorry, I disagree with this idea. I thought this project (appleseed) was about teaching, training and motivating the masses, not about decorating "club" members.

Jim
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: Deacon on August 25, 2010, 06:18:44 PM
KD patches should only be available to IITs and above. If somebody wants one, they must step up.

I'm sorry, I disagree with this idea. I thought this project (appleseed) was about teaching, training and motivating the masses, not about decorating "club" members.

Jim

Jim's got a good point!  Jim has been a great support of Appleseed.  Not only has he been to at least 3 (??), but has brought out friends and family.  I know there are others that have been on the line because of Jim.  Just because Jim's hat may not be orange or red doesn't mean he shouldn't be able to earn the FD patch.
Heck, the way he shoots, there are a few things I could learn from him!

Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: dragonfly on August 25, 2010, 06:34:12 PM
Lets keep it simple you shoot and qualify KD on D targets, you get a patch. We are promoting KD and the chance to do a KD AQT, at least for now is going to be rare  ;) .

D-fly
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: sparks1 on August 25, 2010, 06:35:51 PM
I'm with Jim on this too. A rifleman is a rifleman is a rifleman. Hat or not...the purpose is to teach rifle skills. The only way to see that they are solidified is to shoot full distance.
The hat just means they have picked up the pail and are bailing. There are other ways to bail also, if you don't believe me ask Fred how you can help, but not instruct. I'm sure there is a chore that needs doin'.

Not all are cut from the instructor cloth, or may not like it. BUT...they may like to shoot and practice full distance to keep sharp. What's wrong with a patch to recognize this?

Just my opinion.

Sparks1
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: PHenry on August 25, 2010, 07:03:19 PM
I will chime in here, completely uninvited, as it is one of my specialties.  >:D

The KD Clinic, as developed it here in Florida, is an instructor-only event. It is a two-day, intensive, long range shooting clinic aimed at people who are already well proficient with a center-fire rifle, and can be trusted with the advanced marksmanship skills presented. It was never intended for the "masses", and is offered as a reward for services rendered in our honorable cause.

We teach KD at events only to prove a point - that what we teach at 25M really does work out to greater distance and to offer the less proficient shooters something to strive for. The "class" session should not exceed 20 minutes and the shooting should take no more than 90 minutes or so, with enough time to get them back on the 25M line. It serves to create a "big boys" club, to which the rest of the shooters can aspire. It was never meant to actually teach long range skills, as there simply is not near enough time.

I am happy to share the POI we created here in FL, but as stated in the "package" that I send out - it was intended for Appleseeds instructors only. It is another great reason to step up and serve the program. The POI we are using here requires all of Sat AM for lecture and questions on the details of long range shooting, and then the rest of Saturday and all of Sunday (and I mean long, hard days) to complete. We have yet to get past 600M, and that is crackin the whip all day, both days.

The KDC accomplishes several key points:
Improves the marksmanship of our instructor cadre - making them more confident and better at passing on the tradition.
Improves instructor's ability to teach KD at events through personal experience and the real-world come ups that are gleaned from shooting at distance with different rifles / ammo.
Improves instructor's ability to work together on the line through greater "unit integrity" gained from a shared experience.

It also has the side benefit of offering a relaxed atmosphere (no attendees to worry over), some fun and a reward for service rendered.

I say keep it "in house" and anyone who wants some can attend a RBC or step up to instructing.  ..:..

I love the patch - it's a great idear. Might be a good item for RBCs as well as KDCs.  O0
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: dragonfly on August 25, 2010, 08:22:58 PM
Hey, how about we look for a place for an RBC in WI.  ;) :cool2:  :~ :~ :~ :~ :~ :~ :~ :~ :~

D-fly
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: JoeZ on August 25, 2010, 09:49:06 PM
D-fly....we can have one you know where anytime but hunting season. So Jan, Feb, March etc >:D are all open and as you all know it's virtually weather proof. We definitely will shoot to 600. We need an SI to go along with the idea. I thought we had an  SI   around     here ......    somewhere @)


P Henry...I've gone through what I think is your KD material and have altered what we do here because of it. I haven't discussed it yet with our group but I must say that your reasons all support greatly our need for KD but not necessarily the need to keep it "in house". We here need all the IIT's we can get especially if WI is going to double it's shoots (we tripled this year). Everything we do should be open to gaining IIT's.

Comments are most welcome....
I can't improve unless you point to my faults as I'll never see them.
JoeZ
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: colycat on August 25, 2010, 10:25:32 PM
In my opinion RBC's have out used there usefulness.  I for one am not interested  in  instructing  at one.  Just look at what we did at the IBC.  But that is only me.

Hey, how about we look for a place for an RBC in WI.  ;) :cool2:  :~ :~ :~ :~ :~ :~ :~ :~ :~

D-fly
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: JoeZ on August 25, 2010, 11:05:39 PM
So let's make a Winter IBC then. Either way we get to shoot to 600 in the cold. >:D  Instead of ATV's we'll bring snowmobiles.

I'd love to be able to post a Jan opportunity for Full Distance.

PS: Can we open the Sunday portion of the IBC to those who need a to earn/prove rifleman scores? At $40 per person I don't why not.(No range fee)
        Or am I opening yet another can O' worms......I hate when I do that :wb:

Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: colycat on August 25, 2010, 11:28:58 PM
No can o worms! ..:..
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: russellmn on August 26, 2010, 08:46:44 AM
Umm...  any chance a guy that shot FDAQT at the Rolla, ND RBC could get one o' them patches??? 
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: dragonfly on August 26, 2010, 08:51:03 AM
Umm...  any chance a guy that shot FDAQT at the Rolla, ND RBC could get one o' them patches??? 

I think the idea is to shoot KD in WI   @)

D-fly
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: russellmn on August 26, 2010, 08:58:19 AM
Dang it!    :wb: I dunno when I can get out there to shoot KD...   :---
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: dragonfly on August 26, 2010, 09:05:54 AM
I heard Cornell MI is now part of WI  8) . Lacrosse in Dec.  O0

D-fly
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: dragonfly on August 26, 2010, 09:07:38 AM
So let's make a Winter IBC then. Either way we get to shoot to 600 in the cold. >:D  Instead of ATV's we'll bring snowmobiles.

I'd love to be able to post a Jan opportunity for Full Distance.

PS: Can we open the Sunday portion of the IBC to those who need a to earn/prove rifleman scores? At $40 per person I don't why not.(No range fee)
        Or am I opening yet another can O' worms......I hate when I do that :wb:




I like it  :~  O0 
dragonfly   Keeping the Faith
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: Deacon on August 26, 2010, 09:38:46 AM
Hmmmmm,
A northern Wisconsin Winter IBC........sounds good to me, or we could do a KD clinic!

Illinois has that 1500(max)? person IBC down in Ottawa, we could do the KD clinic the following weekend!
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: russellmn on August 26, 2010, 01:48:47 PM
Well I'll be out at Cornell but I'm pretty sure I'll be busy teaching seeing how it's just Colycat and I at the moment... 

LaCrosse the next KD shoot??? 
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: Shooterer on August 26, 2010, 02:52:33 PM
Where can I purchase some KD targets so I can practice?
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: dragonfly on August 26, 2010, 08:21:29 PM
In my opinion RBC's have out used there usefulness.  I for one am not interested  in  instructing  at one.  Just look at what we did at the IBC.  But that is only me.

Hey, how about we look for a place for an RBC in WI.  ;) :cool2:  :~ :~ :~ :~ :~ :~ :~ :~ :~

D-fly

Alright I'll bite  ??? ; why have RBC's out lived there usefulness?
How many Rifleman did we make at the IBC ? RBC's make Rifleman and then they can begin the road to becoming an Instructor. IBC's only work on Instructor skill's .

D-fly
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: JoeZ on August 26, 2010, 10:11:26 PM
Quote
Where can I purchase some KD targets so I can practice?

I have full D targets you can buy $2.25 each. I can leave them at the club or what ever.
West Allis Blueprint has them on computer file for $2.50 each. Make sure you ask for the "target" file that Zignego usually gets.
Chris Z has targets for 200yds that simulate the 300yd D and 400yd D. Send him or me a PM for these.

PM me or call 414 750 1589 and I can help you out.




What's the range at Cornell? I think it's 300. If you want I can work up some KD targets. You'll need an xtra red hat though.




Quote
Umm...  any chance a guy that shot FDAQT at the Rolla, ND RBC could get one o' them patches???
I think you mean passed.

russellmn....as soon as I'm in the surplus of these patches or the add on that Meanstreaker suggested I will make them availiable to any red hat who will then be on his honor to award them appropriately. WI riflemen will go first but give me a couple weeks and we'll be alright.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: AFTERMATH on August 27, 2010, 12:10:45 AM
I believe the 'add-on' is the way to go...
Should make things a little easier on BrendaZ as well.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: russellmn on August 27, 2010, 02:26:56 AM
Thanks Joe.  I like the idea of the add on as well.  We've got a few over here in MN that have qual'd FD...
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: martin on August 28, 2010, 11:29:27 AM


   Just for everyone's info, there is a Wisconsin manufacterer of targets ,    Qualification Targets, Inc. (www.targets.net) toll free 866-498-8228  or (715) 796-5201.  I tried to call him but today is Sat. so no answer.
 Surprisingly, this outfit is in a town just minutes north of me.
 Martin   
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: eaglescouter on August 28, 2010, 11:51:02 AM


   Just for everyone's info, there is a Wisconsin manufacterer of targets ,    Qualification Targets, Inc. (www.targets.net) toll free 866-498-8228  or (715) 796-5201.  I tried to call him but today is Sat. so no answer.
 Surprisingly, this outfit is in a town just minutes north of me.
 Martin   

This is the first supplier that I have seen that stocks the full size 'D' target (full size is 6' X 6').  Most places only stock the repair centers which are much smaller and remove some of the scoring rings.

Unfortunately they list their minimum order as 1,000 pcs for this target :(
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: PHenry on August 28, 2010, 01:10:15 PM
no pricing and not the same as the ones we git from RWVA. Has a 2 score?? and sill is different.

For our KDCs in FL, I have been getting copies of the RWVA targets made at a blueprint shop nearby that is happy to get the work and offers me a pretty decent price. They are on white paper, but work pretty well, and are about 35" x 36" overall - plenty big enough if placed on 4x4' backers.

I have a target line design that works with 3/4" insulation board and 2x4s - portable and reasonable cost. Each 4x8' sheet of "celotex" (no longer made, but you get idea) creates two backers. Sink the 2x4s with a post hole digger at least 2' in ground, on 8' centers, and run drywall screws thru celotex into flat of 2x4s at center point. Be sure that all rounds impact berm from all positions and distances to avoid skip rounds or over berm rounds. Always charge rifle with muzzle pointed at berm to avoid slam fire rounds over berm.

Use white paper behind black 4MOA squares for sighting and remove to place D targets. Start at 25M and get zero (index or record this base sight setting - this is CRITICAL info). Move back to 100 and begin the FD AQT. Easy peasy.  ^-^
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: Cooper on August 28, 2010, 01:38:25 PM
Quote

What's the range at Cornell? I think it's 300. If you want I can work up some KD targets. You'll need an xtra red hat though.



The Cornell range is out to 1000 yds.  They're practically in the backyard of my deer camp.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: dragonfly on August 29, 2010, 07:30:22 PM
Quote

What's the range at Cornell? I think it's 300. If you want I can work up some KD targets. You'll need an xtra red hat though.







The Cornell range is out to 1000 yds.  They're practically in the backyard of my deer camp.




I see a chance for a KDAQT here,. With colycat , OG and russellmn instructing it should be a good one.

dragonfly
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: JoeZ on August 30, 2010, 12:24:18 AM
Another clarification. The target we use is the D target as supplied by the RWVA that has the 3 point field on it. Written on the bottom is "Center, Target Repair: Rifle Target "D" (Army)". The outside dimension of the 4 point field is 25.75 inch. We don't use the 2 point field that is partially visible on the top.

Possible sources I have printed earlier in this thread.

 This is not to be confused with the RWVA Project Appleseed Full Distance AQT which has no 3 point field.(Fred does not pay for misses) This one can be used as a repair for the target mentioned above.

If you get ahold of a full "D" check the 4 point field for size and simply ignore the 2 point field. The 6 feet by 6 feet may help with shooters who are struggling with a zero problem.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: JoeZ on September 30, 2010, 12:02:38 PM
Another chance here to earn the full distance patch. Sunday we will be on Racine's 600 yd range with patches in hand. If you are a rifleman, sign up for Sunday only. If you are an orange hat, show up Sun only to instruct/shoot.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: dragonfly on September 30, 2010, 04:48:30 PM
Another chance here to earn the full distance patch. Sunday we will be on Racine's 600 yd range with patches in hand. If you are a rifleman, sign up for Sunday only. If you are an orange hat, show up Sun only to instruct/shoot.


Or come Saturday for some more history, shoot some QDAQT,s, take an Orange hat, shoot Full distance on Sunday and than help instruct  O0 . All that in one weekend  :cool2: . What a GLORIOUS country we live in  :) .

D-fly    Keeping the Faith
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: Gumballhead on September 30, 2010, 06:49:34 PM
Another chance here to earn the full distance patch. Sunday we will be on Racine's 600 yd range with patches in hand. If you are a rifleman, sign up for Sunday only. If you are an orange hat, show up Sun only to instruct/shoot.


Or come Saturday for some more history, shoot some QDAQT,s, take an Orange hat, shoot Full distance on Sunday and than help instruct  O0 . All that in one weekend  :cool2: . What a GLORIOUS country we live in  :) .

D-fly    Keeping the Faith

What he said  **)

And for Dfly...

 :--- :--- :--- :--- :--- :--- :--- ^:)^ ^:)^ ^:)^ ^:)^ ^:)^ ..:.. ..:.. ..:.. ..:.. >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: ++) ++) ++) ++)
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: George63 on September 30, 2010, 06:59:38 PM
If you do not have a suitable rifle for the KD AQT I will have loaners at Racine oct 2-3
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: JoeZ on October 05, 2010, 09:17:19 PM
Next opportunity is Sat Oct 16 at 8:30 AM. PM me to go as I must arrange club members to host us. We will shoot to 600 yds and full distance patches will be in hand. Please, only those who shot rifleman score before.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: Muskyjerk on October 13, 2010, 12:13:41 PM
 :)
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: dragonfly on October 28, 2010, 10:33:35 AM
BTT
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: JoeZ on November 02, 2010, 12:38:48 AM
Two oppurtunities coming up. Racine on Nov 20-21 (you read that right, openning weekend!!!) This range reaches out to 600 and we always use it.

LaCrosse on December 4-5.

These full distance shoots are open to red hats, IITs, and riflemen. Go ahead and sign up for Sunday only. You will come away from this not just with practice at full distance but we are going to teach you how to teach KD. We're not just trying to earn an extra patch here. When someone sees your patch they are to understand that you are not teaching from a book but rather from your experience. This is your chance to be some of the most qualified to instruct around.

  The instruction actually starts now with a few simple rules I picked up at the RBC in Osage Beach (many thanks to VAshoter and jmdavis)
1: Do not waste range time with things you can do at home. Check your rifles mechanical functions and properly lubricate. Dry fire, dry fire, and dry fire some more. We tell our shooters this all the time but do we do this ourselves? The more you shoot the more you need to dry fire to catch bad habits as they creep in. Also, try this; dry fire in a totally dark room. Do this for an hour and you will know your trigger intimately.

2: Zero your rifle. For M1As and Garands, zero at 25 meters and you will be zero at 200. AR 15s zero on your 8/3 setting +1 click and you will be zero at 300. For most scoped rifles, zero at 25 will be zero between 250 and 300 depending on your sight height above the bore line. You'll be close enough for the sighters at 200.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: Castle Mountain on November 02, 2010, 02:00:08 PM
2: Zero your rifle. For M1As and Garands, zero at 25 meters and you will be zero at 200. AR 15s zero on your 8/3 setting +1 click and you will be zero at 300. For most scoped rifles, zero at 25 will be zero between 250 and 300 depending on your sight height above the bore line. You'll be close enough for the sighters at 200.
[/quote]

We should assume this will be true for our AR-10T .308 as well? Or are they flatter shooting?

Really want to attend this event with  you WI folks. This will be a treat. VA Shooter & JM Davis both lit a fire
in us to shoot KD. We can never be content with 25 M again. I shoot the KD with my .22 and now the big
rifle is going to win the day. If you had the chance to read the Texas KD range report of one shooter
doing very well out to 1000 yds.  Do check it out!   O0 O0

You  WI folks need to send that fine new Texas orange hat a patch for that special accomplishment   O0 I sure would. :)
You will assuradly cement WI into the hearts and minds of those Texans because WI has the neatest patch.

Best regards to to you all.

Castle Mountain

Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: JoeZ on November 02, 2010, 08:45:57 PM
My AR10 has a sight over bore height of 2.75" and is in 308. My zero is set for 250 yards and that comes real close to zero at 25m.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: PHenry on November 03, 2010, 06:04:27 PM
JoeZ,
+1 on that
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: JoeZ on November 25, 2010, 01:25:47 AM
LaCrosse on December 4-5.

These full distance shoots are open to red hats, IITs, and riflemen. Go ahead and sign up for Sunday only. You will come away from this not just with practice at full distance but we are going to teach you how to teach KD. We're not just trying to earn an extra patch here. When someone sees your patch they are to understand that you are not teaching from a book but rather from your experience. This is your chance to be some of the most qualified to instruct around.

  The instruction actually starts now with a few simple rules I picked up at the RBC in Osage Beach (many thanks to VAshoter and jmdavis)
1: Do not waste range time with things you can do at home. Check your rifles mechanical functions and properly lubricate. Dry fire, dry fire, and dry fire some more. We tell our shooters this all the time but do we do this ourselves? The more you shoot the more you need to dry fire to catch bad habits as they creep in. Also, try this; dry fire in a totally dark room. Do this for an hour and you will know your trigger intimately.

2: Zero your rifle. For M1As and Garands, zero at 25 meters and you will be zero at 200. AR 15s zero on your 8/3 setting +1 click and you will be zero at 300. For most scoped rifles, zero at 25 will be zero between 250 and 300 depending on your sight height above the bore line. You'll be close enough for the sighters at 200.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: fepowered on November 26, 2010, 09:47:51 PM
LaCrosse on December 4-5.

These full distance shoots are open to red hats, IITs, and riflemen. Go ahead and sign up for Sunday only.
We would register as a paid shooter for Sunday?  What distances will be the Course of Fire?
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: JoeZ on November 27, 2010, 02:27:56 PM
Red Hats and IIT's can just show up and pay only the range fee (if any). Others will need to pay the one day as a walk-on or preregistered.

The range is the CMP range. I don't really know how far, but it looks like 600yds on Google satellite view.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: Justin on November 27, 2010, 05:42:25 PM
 For the AR15 zero method. Is the +1 to take into account the fact that you should be zeroing at 30m/36yards for a 300 yard zero?

 
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: fepowered on November 27, 2010, 06:52:21 PM
For the AR15 zero method. Is the +1 to take into account the fact that you should be zeroing at 30m/36yards for a 300 yard zero?

Yes, it is.....
Since few people will show up with M855 spec ammo, most will have to adjust their zero when they actually shoot at 300 yds.   Even if your rifle is "zeroed", your chosen sight picture may set you off a bit.  Using the 8/3 +1 method will get you pretty close though.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: Castle Mountain on November 27, 2010, 08:00:28 PM
You certainly place added value to the weekend with this syllubus.
We are so looking forward to your instruction JZ. We found VA shooter
and JMDavis very learned and a real pleasure to listen to. We are
eager to learn so much more. This time I will be doing things
with a .308 and not my .22

Cheers,

CM


LaCrosse on December 4-5.

These full distance shoots are open to red hats, IITs, and riflemen. Go ahead and sign up for Sunday only. You will come away from this not just with practice at full distance but we are going to teach you how to teach KD. We're not just trying to earn an extra patch here. When someone sees your patch they are to understand that you are not teaching from a book but rather from your experience. This is your chance to be some of the most qualified to instruct around.

  The instruction actually starts now with a few simple rules I picked up at the RBC in Osage Beach (many thanks to VAshoter and jmdavis)
1: Do not waste range time with things you can do at home. Check your rifles mechanical functions and properly lubricate. Dry fire, dry fire, and dry fire some more. We tell our shooters this all the time but do we do this ourselves? The more you shoot the more you need to dry fire to catch bad habits as they creep in. Also, try this; dry fire in a totally dark room. Do this for an hour and you will know your trigger intimately.

2: Zero your rifle. For M1As and Garands, zero at 25 meters and you will be zero at 200. AR 15s zero on your 8/3 setting +1 click and you will be zero at 300. For most scoped rifles, zero at 25 will be zero between 250 and 300 depending on your sight height above the bore line. You'll be close enough for the sighters at 200.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: JoeZ on November 27, 2010, 09:12:27 PM
Bring your instuctor manuals. There are some things to add.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: AFTERMATH on November 28, 2010, 10:59:58 PM
Hmmm.....
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: Wheeler44 on November 28, 2010, 11:38:47 PM
So there really is a "full distance patch"?  How is it different?  

W44

Edit to add;


I saw the pic....
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: FivePoint56 on November 29, 2010, 07:21:53 PM
What is the ammo load out for a KD shoot. 
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: JoeZ on November 29, 2010, 08:54:13 PM
Bring what ammo your rifle is zeroed with. Other wise anything will do. For 223 you may want something heavy as we fully intend on using the full 600yds. Bring pens and paper to record your rifles info. jmdavis and tdow both made excellent sheets that can be printed out and stapled into a little booklet.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: JoeZ on November 29, 2010, 09:49:55 PM
To Wheeler;

There is no official full distance patch. We thought it was a good idea for a few reasons and so made one up. Some shooters get their rifleman patch and we never see them again. This is a way to get them to hear more of what we have to say, more of our 7th step.

Another reason is this. When Appleseed first started it's instructors were uniformly middle aged to older men who had come to Appleseed already veterans of highpower matches, 3 gun matches, and such. It was easy to respect the technical knowledge of the Red Hat. Now, as Appleseed logically draws it's instructors from the shooters that demographic has changed. Here we have teenage men, young men and women, and even grandmas, and the full distance patch is a testament to the quality of Appleseed instruction. It is impressive and reassuring to see "Full Distance" on our instructors, you can't help but think these people know what they're about.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: Wheeler44 on November 30, 2010, 01:35:51 AM
OK... thanks...

W44
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: sparks1 on November 30, 2010, 07:05:16 PM
 
  I was looking for lodging for Sat. night only in Stoddard. Watersedge had a vacation home for a really reasonable rate. However it has a 2 night minimum, or the price goes up. It sleeps 8 and the price quoted me was...

 $95.00 for 3 people     add $10.00 per person up to 8. that's if it's booked for 2 nights, otherwise it goes up to $145.00 for one night.

Not a bad looking house and maybe a consideration for future if the instructor corp wants to stay together.

I have no affiliation with this motel by the way.

As it is 3 of us have a rm at the motel. prices are good there also.

See you Sunday.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: M.R.C. on November 30, 2010, 07:38:36 PM
Would 100 rounds be enough for all KD shooting? That's all I have on hand for my Garand (minus a couple for sighting-in), and my AR-15 is broken.

Is it possible for a guy like me who barely squeaked out a Rifleman score with a scoped .22 to do it at KD with a Mosin Nagant?!? AK-47? SKS? Those are only other center-fires I own with enough ammo on hand to make the La Crosse shoot.........
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: JoeZ on November 30, 2010, 08:49:38 PM
100 rounds will be fine. If we get to shoot to 600yds that's 60 rounds. With your list of firearms there the Garand is hands down the best for the ranges and COF involved, a true rifleman's rifle.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: JoeZ on December 17, 2010, 10:13:07 PM
Check the original post for a change in the procedure. The penalties are eliminated.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: dragonfly on February 21, 2011, 01:46:34 PM
Another KD opportunity, Racine Feb. 26 and 27 2011

Quote from OG,


Earned that Winterseed patch yet?
http://www.appleseedinfo.org/winterseed.html

Don't let this opportunity slip by.

Register here:

http://www.eventbrite.com/event/1210000143

Register now!


D-fly  Keeping the Faith
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: eyeraker on February 26, 2011, 06:47:25 PM
I attended the shoot in la crosse in decemeber, but i didnt have a rifle that was capable of shooting KD at the time. I really want to shoot KD next time. Wondering if its appropriate to shoot KD with an AR-15 or would i be putting myself at a huge disadvantage. I also have an M1 carbine, but i doubt that would be very useful past 300. Should i just sell off a bunch of handguns and buy an m1 garand or m1a.

-kyle
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: 2 clicks low on February 26, 2011, 07:13:38 PM
I attended the shoot in la crosse in decemeber, but i didnt have a rifle that was capable of shooting KD at the time. I really want to shoot KD next time. Wondering if its appropriate to shoot KD with an AR-15 or would i be putting myself at a huge disadvantage. I also have an M1 carbine, but i doubt that would be very useful past 300. Should i just sell off a bunch of handguns and buy an m1 garand or m1a.

-kyle

Bring the AR. Lots of people shoot KD with AR's, you can too. Bring the carbine too. If nothing else to see exactly what it will shoot. It may supprise you.

2cl
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: sparks1 on February 26, 2011, 08:54:31 PM
I'd pick the AR over the M1 carbine, though it would be interesting to see the carbines limits. I doubt it has 400 yd capability and maintain a 4 moa accuracy. It is pretty much a low power rifle round, or a high power pistol round...designed to fill this middle ground.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: AFTERMATH on February 26, 2011, 10:08:05 PM
I attended the shoot in la crosse in decemeber, but i didnt have a rifle that was capable of shooting KD at the time. I really want to shoot KD next time. Wondering if its appropriate to shoot KD with an AR-15 or would i be putting myself at a huge disadvantage. I also have an M1 carbine, but i doubt that would be very useful past 300. Should i just sell off a bunch of handguns and buy an m1 garand or m1a.<[ :-X ]
 
-kyle

Just ensure you have the proper weight ammo for your rifle's rate of twist.  For example:  55gr - 1/12  |  62gr - 1/7 [your results may vary]
If you've got a 1/9 it should be able to handle both 55g and 62g...  You don't need to penetrate a barrier or anything like that...
So, as long as you're rifle stabilizes the ammo; you'll perferate the paper with ease.
Worse comes to worse, and you've got the the wrong combination:  you still learn something.


Aftermath
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: fepowered on March 07, 2011, 12:20:52 AM

Just ensure you have the proper weight ammo for your rifle's rate of twist.  For example:  55gr - 1/12  |  62gr - 1/7 [your results may vary]
If you've got a 1/9 it should be able to handle both 55g and 62g...  You don't need to penetrate a barrier or anything like that...
So, as long as you're rifle stabilizes the ammo; you'll perferate the paper with ease.
Worse comes to worse, and you've got the the wrong combination:  you still learn something.
I verified Friday that my Bushmaster 1/9 will handle Hornady 75gr Match ammo which was the only 75gr stuff I could find on short notice.   Using optics I had a sub 2" group at 200yds...   I am going to be ordering a couple boxes of the Wolf 75gr steel case and try that.  So long as it is 4MOA or better, I will be ordering more.      I normally shoot 55gr out to 300+ yds. and 62gr further.  I hunt deer with 64gr.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: Shooterer on March 07, 2011, 11:27:35 AM
Aftermath & Fed are correct about bullet weight, 55gr will work out to 300 but after that you need more mass.

When shooting Highpower matches I use 75gr Hornady BTHP at all distances, but some shooters use 80gr at the 600 line. (80gr can not be seated for the standard 2.26" AR mag length and need to be loaded in the rifle by hand singly)

btw: these are 7 1/2 - 8" twist barrels.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: Blue Five on March 07, 2011, 11:30:22 AM
Do we know if there will be KD at La Crosse in April? 
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: siglite on March 07, 2011, 11:41:25 AM
Aftermath & Fed are correct about bullet weight, 55gr will work out to 300 but after that you need more mass.

When shooting Highpower matches I use 75gr Hornady BTHP at all distances, but some shooters use 80gr at the 600 line. (80gr can not be seated for the standard 2.26" AR mag length and need to be loaded in the rifle by hand singly)

btw: these are 7 1/2 - 8" twist barrels.

I've reliably hit 20" steel @500 with 55gr.  Now, terminal ballistics?  Another creature for sure.  But you can get reliable hits out there.  They're a little more prone to crosswinds, though. :D
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: JoeZ on March 07, 2011, 06:57:58 PM
KD at La Crosse in April? I think its a must considering some pooles may be there. Does anyone have a more urgent need for KD then them? I'm going to do my best to get that done. All we really need is another red hat.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: Blue Five on March 07, 2011, 07:02:35 PM
KD at La Crosse in April? I think its a must considering some pooles may be there. Does anyone have a more urgent need for KD then them? I'm going to do my best to get that done. All we really need is another red hat.

Great!  I think the pooles that were at this weekends shoot would love to do KD.  I know my brother (who is a poole) really wants to do that, and I'm sure the other two would be interested as well.  It will really prepare them.

Plus, I might toss a few rounds down there myself for KD...we'll see  ::)

Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: JoeZ on April 20, 2011, 02:00:58 PM
Racine is right around the corner.
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: Chris Z on April 20, 2011, 06:18:30 PM
I'm looking forward to EARNING my Full Distance Patch, so I can wear it proud.

cz
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: Trig on April 20, 2011, 07:24:37 PM
I am also intersted in trying the KD at racine!  (and I will be trying to get my wife out this time now that we dont have blowing sleet and snow  ::)....excuses...)
Title: Re: WI KD Opportunities and Full Distance patch
Post by: dragonfly on June 22, 2011, 04:17:41 PM
We have another range partner that is going to open up their hi-power range to Appleseed. Yes thats right Winnequah at Lodi is allowing Appleseed the use of the hi-power range Sunday July 24, 2011  :~
Thanks LadyVetch and Vetch for all your hard work on this  :bow: .

D-fly   Keeping the Faith