Democracy v Republic

[Beowolf_357]

http://www.wimp.com/thegovernment/

I think we are headed down the same road as the Romans. Watch the video and see what you think.

[gunville]

good video.

Our government sponsored and mandated educations teaches that democracy is the end-all. But democracy is simply arbitray rule of the masses, and hence offers no freedom.

For democracy to work, even at a small scale, town-hall meeting - requires a set of protected liberties.  Without liberty, democracy turns to tyranny.

[freefyrefly]

That was an excellent video, thanks for sharing!

[henschman]

what truly distinguishes our system is not whether it is a democracy or a republic -- it is that it is a constitutional republic.  A republic is merely a democracy that operates through a majority vote of representatives rather than the majority vote of the people.  However, our republic is limited in what it can do by the supreme law of the land.  our national government runs on the principle of majority rule, but there are only a few specific areas in which it has any power to act, and a whole list of rights it may not infringe on no matter how much of a majority supports doing so. 

[smiley_dan]

It all looks the same from out here.  Does the evidence support the idea that we have a government limited to a few areas that also respects rights?  Do I really care what the form is if it has gotten this bad?

[henschman]

i feel ya.  I'm starting to wonder more and more whether a "limited government" is something that is even possible for more than a brief period of time.  For all the good government has ever done, it has caused infinitely more evil.  Maybe government is something the human race ought to chalk up as a big failed experiment.

[funfaler]

OK gents, any takers on how to get this thread on to the Appleseed message?   

[V]

An Enlightened and Committed People Are the Most Effective Way of Preserving Liberty

            "Although all men are born free, slavery has been the general lot of the human race. Ignorant--they have been cheated; asleep--they have been surprised; divided--the yoke has been forced upon them. But what is the lesson...? The people ought to be enlightened, to be awakened, to be united, that after establishing a government they should watch over it.... It is universally admitted that a well-instructed people alone can be permanently free." --James Madison


Wake 'em up, teach 'em to shoot straight, they'll learn how to think straight, and then we can set the country straight!

Appleseed: The Cure To Whatever Ails You

[dragonfly]

YES.......YES

[Buzzworth]

An Enlightened and Committed People Are the Most Effective Way of Preserving Liberty

            "Although all men are born free, slavery has been the general lot of the human race. Ignorant--they have been cheated; asleep--they have been surprised; divided--the yoke has been forced upon them. But what is the lesson...? The people ought to be enlightened, to be awakened, to be united, that after establishing a government they should watch over it.... It is universally admitted that a well-instructed people alone can be permanently free." --James Madison


Wake 'em up, teach 'em to shoot straight, they'll learn how to think straight, and then we can set the country straight!

Appleseed: The Cure To Whatever Ails You

INDEED YES--YES---YES!!!!!

[smiley_dan]

OK gents, any takers on how to get this thread on to the Appleseed message?   

I thought appleseed was about teaching people to shoot, teaching some history, and "waking people up."  We refine, or at least we try to, those first two all the time.  Waking people up is mainly left up to them, but I see this step as the biggest failure in appleseed.  I figured a little discussion on the topic would not be a problem.  When we discuss political systems, it is generally along the lines of the history involving the Rev. War.  Discussion of current political solutions is frowned on, and rightly so.  When has freaking out over the latest law ever accomplished anything?

If we are not at least allowed to question some of the basic assumptions of AS, how can we be wholehearted in what we do?

I would say the majority of the people interested in the history of the Rev War, or who regularly discuss the founding fathers and the US constitution, advocate these things as a path to liberty.  But looking back to the purpose of AS, isn't questioning what you hold as values what "waking up" really is?  Especially since we have at least a little understanding of what people sacrificed during the war? 

For instance, Madison's quote above.  It sounds good, but what does it mean?  If they were slaves before, how were they not slaves after?  Did the revolution accomplish anything other than to change slave-masters, at a horrible cost in suffering and death?  How would Madison know what it takes to be free, when he helped set up the system which enslaves us now?  Or do you really think you are free?

This seems to me to be more on mission than knowing who did what on the 19th.

[LayloPro]

Ahhhh, I usually stay away from these kinda conversations....they need a campfire far more than a keyboard, and some time to absorb things.......a good pipe doesn't hurt either.....

It seems what Madison was trying to say was that when a man (or group of men) are unaware (distracted, stupid, beguiled, or otherwise occupied) of what their government was actually doing, slavery of some type was/is the almost certain result...... In the style & experiment of government they proposed creating, the average man would be held somewhat to fairly responsible for keeping an educated eye upon his elected representative(s).....

I highly doubt that Madison had foreseen many of the "tricks" that have been successively put in place over the next couple of hundred years to bring about "enslaving" the American "citizen"........

S_D, you ask if we are actually free now.....I would ask what you define "free" as, but in my world, I see it as meaning I do not have to ask anyones' permission to pursue happiness, defend my life & liberty, and to be able to go where I want, when I want, to do whatever job it is that I have taken upon myself to do. As ARC pointed out a while back, anytime you have to get permission from a government minion, whatever it is you are doing is a "privilege", not a "right".......

You may have a different take on it......

Another thing you mentioned that caught my eye....If they were slaves before, how were they not slaves after? I would have to answer that it depends......on who they were slaves to before, and to whom they became slaves to after? If we are talking about King George, and his high regard for the colonist, my next question would be to whom they became slaves to after the war had finished, & King George had released the colonies from any further "subject business"......
The Federal Gov't? Or the States that they resided in?
Your question could be either a very deep thought idea of mans' existentialism, or just a flip question of the "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" sort of lyrical truisms The Who were so good at in the 60's-70's......

Again, I doubt the original Founders saw what would be coming in detail, but they obviously knew enough about human nature to know that there would/will be some who will go for the power & position of "ruling", with the citizenry as "slaves", either working off tax loads, credit debt, or merely turning over a large percentage of their income in an orderly fashion to purchase some vaguely detailed "government scheme", or defense against a fabricated bogeyman.......does this sound familiar at all? Current events perhaps?

So in answer to your one question, what is Appleseed about, yes, we teach folks about their American Rifleman heritage, we encourage them to become better shots, and "wake people up"......some gently, some not so gently.....When I first came to AS, I considered myself awake enough to what was happening around me, but as a solitary fighter, pretty much useless to do anything much about it......finding this group of like-minded individuals gladdens my heart beyond belief, and allows me the hope that we can bring about a "change we can believe in" that the folks on the Socialist bandwagon do -NOT- want to hear.....

Waking folks up -can- be tough....esp if they do not want to hear what we have to say.......I've heard about "low hanging fruit", and running into groups of "RainMan", believe me, here in Cali, we have -plenty- of sheep to go around......I'm looking for the Sheep dogs, that are already partially awake, or just not aware of who we are yet......As folks have noted, it doesn't take too much effort to move a flock with just a couple of sheepdogs.....

I guess my main question to you, S_D, is whether you honestly believe that the "Representative Republic" was set up to ensure slavery of the taxpayers? I would start off by suggesting a through reading of the Constitution, and comparing what was written then, to what is accepted fact now, and finding out when & who changed it, and for what reason? I'm not talking about the iceberg call of it, but rather the historical changes made, and how they were rammed thru.......

My only comment I will make about anything current is to point out that our governments' Chief of Staff has been quoted as saying: "Never let a good crisis go by without exploiting it..." And in my mind, it follows that if you don't have a real crisis, then you "make one up".......
But that right there is not AS's message, rather mine. FWIW, and YMMV......

LayloPro

[STRAT]

Hence it is that such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths. (FEDERALIST 10 Madison:22)

Knowledge is power and wisdom the ultimate weapon, a rifle is just a tool but unlike a club can expand the mind during the proper instruction of it's use.

[Earl]

I like telling the story of April 18th with the type of people going to bed in New England, their differences with the Crown, and what they were doing in preparation of restoring their local government and judicial system, pointing out that most of them hadn't decided on independence as their goal yet. Hard working law abiding citizens of New England just wanting to do what was right.

To them it wasn't a question of democracy or republic, they had the local town meeting, the representative assembly and a governor and representative contact with other colonies. That looks like a Republic in the making.

[staplegund]

Good Morning!
This is as good a time to jump in as any.  I'd like to post a quote by Edmund Burke, from "a letter to a member of the National Assembly", dated 1791.   
     "Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition to put moral chains on their own appetites... Society cannot exist unless a controlling power upon will and appetite be placed somewhere, and the less of it there is within, the more there is without.  It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things that men of intemperate minds cannot be free.  Their passions forge their fetters."

What have been seeing is a democracy of intemperate fools.  It is needful to educate, respectfully, and disabuse our fellows of their foolishness if possible.  FWIW, I found the quote above in Patrick Buchanan's "Day of Reckoning", which I'm about halfway thru.

--Scott

[funfaler]

OK, that worked well.

I need a BUTT LOAD of help WL1, helping to straighten up the forum.

This is this kind of work:
-research
-cleaning up large threads for good information for newbies/Guests
-reformatting threads to look better.
-Posting Pictures with current threads, to make them more interesting and useful
-Working on Regional flyers and State wide flyers
-Tons of help with promotional materials and ideas

I suspect since we all agree that education is vital, that we all agree that teaching others, those outside of this forum is vital as well.   We do that by getting folks to attend the shoots, and we get them to show up by actually telling them about the events.

The stuff listed above is geared toward doing just that, so it is the first step in getting our fellow Americans educated.

We can post all we would like here about this subject (or a whole host of them), but honing this program to be more efficient and more broadly exposed to those who need this education is where the "action" is.   Our talking to each other in this bubble of a forum on these issues is soothing, but is missing the mark.

So, please post here your interest in helping with the tasks above, or other tasks on the WL1 board, and we can take this message, this education to the masses where it will do us and our children some real benefit.

[henschman]

I have a problem with the idea that the Republican form of government as established by our Constitution, or the Constitution itself, is the end all, be all.  The Constitution was, from the get-go, a compromise document written by divergent factions who sometimes read its provisions in very different ways, much as people today differ on the interpretation of some of its more vague provisions like the Commerce Clause, which the Federalists read VERY differently from the Jeffersonian Republicans even back then.  This idea that some people have that there is one true interpretation of the Constitution, which all of the founders understood in the exact same way, is pretty far-fetched.  Some of the Constitution's terms were purposefully written very vaguely in order to get everybody to sign off on it.  Of course some of the interpretations that the Constitution has been given in the 20th and 21st Century are beyond what even the most pro-central authority, pro-big government Federalist would have read certain provisions to allow back in 1787, but that's besides the point - the point is that we could do better in figuring out a system to secure our liberties. 

I think it holds back our progress toward liberty when people see the Constitution as holy writ, infallible and unimpeachable, and a system so perfect that we could not improve on it at all even if we tried.  We have to see it and the system of government it established for what they are -- a pretty good system, as far as governments go -- probably the best yet as far as how many restraints it puts on centralized power, but certainly not without its faults.  The fact that government has expanded so greatly and has assumed so much control over so many parts of our lives in less than 250 years indicates a flawed system to me.  Of course we could benefit from a more aware and liberty-minded population too, which is what Appleseed is all about... But we will never get a better system put in place if we are so overly fixated on how great our current Constitution is.  Getting our government more in compliance with its founding document is a good start (anything that limits the power and size of the government is a move in the right direction), but we have to keep our minds open to how we can improve on the system too, so as to make it less likely that all of the liberty we secure for our posterity is not lost in a few generations, just like what happened before in this country.  Even the most ardent supporters of liberty are guaranteed to have some screw-ups among their descendents who are capable of squandering a lot of their liberty if the system allows them to. 

Of course this is all hypothetical - I actually consider it really unlikely that we will be able to move this nation or any part of it toward more liberty during our lifetimes - I consider it a lost cause, but still one that is worthy of supporting because I don't ever want it said that we recognized all these problems and yet did nothing.  If nothing else, our futile effort to live free in an age defined by Big Government and the Administrative State can maybe be an inspiration to future generations who actually will have the opportunity to realize some of what we are striving for.  I firmly believe in promoting liberty in the most effective way possible under any given circumstances, however long the odds are.  And though I have some doubts as to whether it really is a workable concept that can exist in the real world, I still consider myself a believer in "limited government" rather than anarchy simply because I believe that we have a better chance of practically achieving more liberty in a system with a very small, very restrained, very limited and defined government than we could with no central power at all.  However, I would greatly prefer anarchy to a system with an over-powerful government, such as the one we currently live under. 

However far we all take our ideas of liberty, we mostly believe in moving our country in the same general direction - toward less centralized power and more individual liberty.  Some of us may not believe in taking it quite as far as others, but for now, we can all agree -- constitutionalists, limited-government folks, and anarchists alike - on the general direction we would like to see things move.  Let's make sure these debates don't distract us from our common purpose - we all agree that promoting the defiant spirit of '75 and the traditional skills of marksmanship help to promote a more independent-minded and liberty-friendly attitude among folks, and that this is a good thing.  But like the founding fathers of old, we might have to work with some people we don't totally agree with in order to have a chance at making anything happen at all. 

Wow, now i realize that I spend like an hour and a half typing all that, and that nobody will probably read it.  its crazy how posts can get away from you, huh?    

[funfaler]

"Wow, now i realize that I spend like an hour and a half typing all that, and that nobody will probably read it.  its crazy how posts can get away from you, huh?"

We have all been there.   

The solution is not to "solve the world's problems" here with those who are of like mind, but as V points out, to educate others.   

We here have the solution at our disposal.   We need to spend that hour and half implementing it, stead of talking about it.

So the plea is repeated.......

So, please post here your interest in helping with the tasks above, or other tasks on the WL1 board, and we can take this message, this education to the masses where it will do us and our children some real benefit.

[henschman]

I am all for staying on mission.  I also agree with what Smiley_Dan said about waking people up being a huge part of our mission.  Of course, if we're out to wake people up, it begs the question of what are we waking them up to, exactly?  Discussions to this end I find to be valuable.  Hour and a half posts may be a bit much, but there is certainly a place for discussions like this that strike at the heart of what we are doing. 

[douglas34474]

I took two young men to the range yesterday. One was my grandson, the other the grandson of a friend. Both young men are 12 years old. Took everything from my smoke pole to the M1 30 Carbine, and most things in between.

When we took a break, I told the guys that the Second Amendment did not give them the right to own a gun. Both voiced the opinion that it did.

I then explained the their Creator gave them that right; along with every other right they enjoyed. I explained that their Rights do not come from the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. They come from the Creator and existed before government existed. No Rights come a government. The Constitution limits what rights we surrender to government in order to secure the Liberties and Security we desire. Just because we as a Nation have lost sight of this over the years does not mean the system has failed. We just need to see through the fog and make course corrections.

They teach in the government schools that everything comes from government. We must relieve our fellow Citizens of their ignorance. If I read AS correctly, removing that ignorance is our goal. If we teach them to shoot as a side bar, so much the better.

At least that's the way I read it.

Douglas

[Mark D]

"Wow, now i realize that I spend like an hour and a half typing all that, and that nobody will probably read it.  its crazy how posts can get away from you, huh?"

We have all been there.   

The solution is not to "solve the world's problems" here with those who are of like mind, but as V points out, to educate others.   

We here have the solution at our disposal.   We need to spend that hour and half implementing it, stead of talking about it.

So the plea is repeated.......

So, please post here your interest in helping with the tasks above, or other tasks on the WL1 board, and we can take this message, this education to the masses where it will do us and our children some real benefit.

Hey Funfaler.  I can help out....PM on the way.

[smiley_dan]

I am all for staying on mission.  I also agree with what Smiley_Dan said about waking people up being a huge part of our mission.  Of course, if we're out to wake people up, it begs the question of what are we waking them up to, exactly?  Discussions to this end I find to be valuable.  Hour and a half posts may be a bit much, but there is certainly a place for discussions like this that strike at the heart of what we are doing. 

This is why my contributions to AS have dwindled lately (and off and on for the last year.)  I'm no longer sure that this is the best way to "wake people up," especially if we can't discuss it without being chivvied off to other tasks.  I'm not sure anymore if this even is a solution.  A solution for what, when many of the people involved espouse values contrary to my own?

If AS was purely about teaching to shoot and telling a little history, I doubt anyone would bother volunteering weeks or months out of the year.  The first enables people to defend themselves and be more self-reliant, even have a better understanding of freedom.  But after that... Sh*t goes downhill.

The 'education' depends on the instructor and the environment of the shoot, but I have no desire to teach people anything promoting ideas that I consider false.  Whether this involves the Constitution, political activism, political concepts, or religious books doesn't matter. 

I know I'm not the only one who has talked about this, I've had this discussion off and on since I started.  So, do we have to follow along unquestioningly, or can we actually talk about this?

[V]

I'm no longer sure that this is the best way to "wake people up," especially if we can't discuss it without being chivvied off to other tasks.  I'm not sure anymore if this even is a solution.  A solution for what, when many of the people involved espouse values contrary to my own?

Thats a bit stronger than I'd put it. The way I think about this at AS is that if we start delving into the 5% that divides us rather than the 95% that binds us then we are walking targets for that noisy 10% who are dragging us all down the drain... you can adjust the exact percentages but the argument remains. Our energies are better spent working together, manfully ignoring our differences, for a greater good. Lets enjoy the luxury of splitting into factions over the big end or the little end of the egg later, when we've won...

If AS was purely about teaching to shoot and telling a little history, I doubt anyone would bother volunteering weeks or months out of the year. 

Amen to that brother and I'm a non-believer! There ain't no atheists in a foxhole right.

The 'education' depends on the instructor and the environment of the shoot, but I have no desire to teach people anything promoting ideas that I consider false.  Whether this involves the Constitution, political activism, political concepts, or religious books doesn't matter. 

Which is exactly why all of the things you just listed are not "taught" at AS or promoted here. Those are the list of 10% things which can divide us so its not surprising that we avoid that trap at AS events and here on a forum setup to promote such events. No one's asking us to repudiate our beliefs or to not work on them outside of AS, just here in the camp we politely agree to disagree and push on with what we can do, we don't make the perfect the enemy of the good.

I know I'm not the only one who has talked about this, I've had this discussion off and on since I started.  So, do we have to follow along unquestioningly, or can we actually talk about this?

I don't think any of us can be characterized as "following along unquestioningly" which is a pretty poor judgment of your peers - it doesn't fit any of the robust, active Rifleman that I've had the pleasure of meeting and I'm truly sorry if thats not been your experience. Its up to each of us to make the call on whether contributing work, within the confines of our self-imposed, agreed working approach here at AS, is more productive and is leading towards whatever nirvana you personally would like to see, or whether there's some other program more narrowly tailored to your view on "the right way" which can better use your time, money and effort or some balance between the two.

Is appleseed perfectly aligned to my world view - no. But my persona at AS is 150% supportive of AS because its the best way I've found so far to get the rest of the world moving in my direction. Does it do it as quickly as I'd like, as efficiently as I'd like, and is its final destination exactly where I'd want it to be? I think everyone of us would say no. But do I know a better way? Well, self-evidently not, I'm still here. I'm sure the same goes for everyone else.

As someone said to me, when things start to get you down, just go do an AS event, things always look better after that...

I'd be happy to talk about this on email, phone, campfires, PM, or anything else but I think its not unreasonable to insist that its counter productive for this forum or at AS events.

And by the way I really liked your old avatar 

Cheers
Phil

[funfaler]

V has it rather tight.

Not sure where the melancholy is coming from.   

Appleseed is the most rapidly growing "active" program for Liberty in the nation.   Putting mere words to action and getting folks to stop "just talking and start doing".

"I can't talk about what I want to talk about"   This is what we mean by checking our Egos at the door.

When an Instructor is speaking to students, or out from under his RWVA Instructor hat, he has to speak in line with Appleseed.   To do other wise is to not be participating in the fastest growing, best Liberty program in the nation, but to be stealing that program for personal use.

Keep in mind what Appleseed is, it is a FIRST STEP PROGRAM.   Our goal is to get folks to take that first step of a journey of a thousand steps.   As Instructors it may get a little boring to say the same things, to see the same "newbies" on the line, to hear the same questions.   I find it darn exciting!   Seeing the light come on in people's eyes, as they hear about their Heritage the realize the possibilities their Founding Fathers envisioned for them, as they were laying down their sacrifice.

There is a sense of "urgency" in the air, thanks to the current political spectrum and new cycles......folks don't allow that to sway you from your mission.   To wake up as many Americans as possible, in the shortest period possible.

Now to the Mission. 

It is not to take Joe Slumber, and in the span of just 2 days, get him to shoot rifleman and to get him to understand all the details and underpinnigs of our Republic, why we are here, who we are, who he is in the whole scheme of things, and to turn them in to "fire balls of Librerty".   If we could, we sure would try, but let's be realistic.

What good does it do to stand before a crowd and tell them the difference between a Democracy and a Republic?   How about telling them all the stupid or unConstitutional things our government has done or are doing?  Little or nothing.   

What is the harm?   Well, we risk stepping over our 501c3 mandates.....but this is really a minor thing.   If we could be more effective without it, we would chuck it.   What is really at stake is that we would be much less effective.   Think of the folks you are speaking to.   Many, if not most, are just wading into the Waters of Freedom, they are uncomfortable and they are unsure.   We could pile a tremendous amount of "knowledge" on to them, scare them, run them off, gone forever.   

Or, we can Appleseed them.   Sow the seeds.   Remember, we are not here to reap the harvest.   If we can, all the better.   We are here to sow the seeds.   We may never see them sprout, see them mature, see them bear fruit......but we first sowed them, and without a sower, there is never a reaper.

"I can't talk about what I want to talk about".......But you can talk about what the participants need to hear!

They need to get a foundational knowledge and understanding of what their Founders did for them, why they did it and what their Founders expected out of them.....their Posterity.

We give them Foundational Rifle Marksmanship Instruction and Foundational American Heritage.   We give them their first step, that most difficult step.....

If we try to rush them on their journey, they will soon get overwhelmed and scurry for a hiddey hole. 

Folks, this forum is not a place to talk about current events, about issues our nation faces.   If you are at this level of the forum, YOU and all who are around YOU, know these issues.....else you would not be here, you would be looking for a NASCAR race or Elton John concert.   

The Appleseed Shoots are not the venue for these discussions either.   

This illustrates  the need to weave Appleseed into the whole of our society.   To get as many people "on this level" as possible.   This happens via their first step.

Those areas of the country which are very active with Appleseeds, are drawing a large number of people to the program, to the shoots.   These same areas have the most up beat, positive people.   It is not that positive people make Appleseed (though it sure helps), it is Appleseed makes positive people. 

There is hope through the program, for our nation, for our Founder's nation.   No where else is there.   Look around you, if there were a better, or nearly better, positive, active, effective program (or way) to wake up our fellow countrymen, others would be doing it.

On a side bar, the folks who want to be "in your face" "over the top" and boldly declaring all the griefs and issues this nation faces.....they have been with us for decades.....where have they gotten?   What "waking up" have they been able to accomplish?  What changes have they been able to enact?

Being right does not mean you are being effective.....being effective does not mean you are not being right.   

The 21st Century Americanus Doofus is a skittish prey.   We jump at it with a whole heap of "beware and listen up" he will scurry away, hide under his bed and wet himself.   We give them their Heritage, make it tasteful and lure them into becoming a Rifleman (at heart) and a real American who our Founders will be proud of.

This program is doing this every weekend of the year, in nearly dozens of locations weekly......where else does this happen?   Where else is this level of effectiveness?

Allow me an opportunity to touch on the forum changes.   They were critical, we are adding 400+ people to the forum each month, and had a very poor way of getting them connected to Appleseed.

We did not know their state, we had no way of connecting them to our Appleseeders or to tasks within the program.  We had no way for them to choose how to get involved, or to help them get involved.

They came in, they looked around, and most often they left. 

Guests and folks seeking information about the program or events had to wade through endless posts and threads with little hope of ever finding what they really needed.   Even us who knew something existed on this forum could not find it.

The very message of Appleseed and the very mission of Appleseed was being diluted, perhaps to a level which would destroy the program.   We needed a restructure to allow for the crazy growth we are seeing and to make this program and forum much easier to get into and get out of it what is needed.

The need for folks to be active in their states is critical for the program.   We have reached a point where there is plenty of Appleseeding to be done in the small areas around the individuals in this program, we need to make it easier for them to do so.

Let me also say, all the "old boards" are still here.   If you can read this, you can also see all the Regional boards, talk there with your buddies across state lines.  Many of the old boards are not appropriate for the new structure, they need to be revamped and are being done....but it is a slow process for the few volunteers who have stepped up to do so.   

We need to better develop the forum which the Guests and Newbies see, to give them a program which will help nurture them into the program, into the deeper parts of the Mission.   We need to better develop those areas of the forum for those who have been here and knee deep in the mission, giving them the information and the community which they need and deserve.....again, we need help in making this happen sooner. 

We outgrew the old way, pure and simple.   We outgrew the old way of getting/training Instructors too, and that was fixed.  Very much for the better and with some resulting growing pains too.

The growth, the potential here is very exciting.....the past and the results of 3 years of efforts is beyond impressive.  Unimaginable would be a fair term.  The need to restructure was painfully obvious and painfully over due, now it is just a little painful. 

Keep in mind, this restructure is partially designed to allow folks to choose the path they wish to travel within the program, to the length they wish to travel it.   I will allow those involved in the program to better see where people stand, what resources are available to the program and where, and help us all figure out what we can do, where we can do it.

More to come......

[Nickle]

There's a misconception among some of our Instructors/Staff that we're trying to teach people what to think, or even how to think.

We're not. We're teaching them TO think, that's all. In different words, we're into opening their eyes, get them thinking on their own. They will come to the right conclusions on their own, trust me.

Teach them how to shoot, give them an appreciation of what our forefathers think, we'll suceed.

One of the things you have to appreciate is th diveristy of people here.

Religion wise (for an example), we have Christians, Jew and Atheists (not the ACLU kind, either). Yet, we all get along, and work towards a common goal.

Enlightening America.

Folks, keep it simple. And, yes, it's that darned simple.

[V]

Teach them how to shoot, give them an appreciation of what our forefathers think, we'll suceed.

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercise, I advise the gun. While this gives a moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body, and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks."

                                                       Thomas Jefferson's Letter to a Nephew

Teach them to shoot straight, they will learn to think straight, and then we'll get the country straight.

                                           -- me 

[smiley_dan]

I don't think any of us can be characterized as "following along unquestioningly" which is a pretty poor judgment of your peers

I didn't mean that we are sheep, but look what happens when people question some aspect of AS's mission.  It always turns out like this.  After which point people just keep their mouths shut and go about their business.  Why do you think there are some people in the program who are never heard from?  Being trained to avoid the topic looks like following unquestioningly to me.  I'm just a slow learner.

There's a misconception among some of our Instructors/Staff that we're trying to teach people what to think, or even how to think.

We're not. We're teaching them TO think, that's all. In different words, we're into opening their eyes, get them thinking on their own. They will come to the right conclusions on their own, trust me.

That's the theory (and why I stayed with the program), but it rarely works out that way.  And we don't agree on the conclusions, and can't even talk about the basics now, which is where this whole discussion went downhill.

"I can't talk about what I want to talk about"   This is what we mean by checking our Egos at the door.

I meant that AS is stifling in many ways, and at the same time, people can talk about god-given rights, the constitution, the founders, and how great political activism is all day and no one bats an eye.  If I discuss this in a way that makes it obvious those are not a part of my reason for being involved, it's my ego that is the problem.  We are all different, and we all have our own reasons for being here.  I don't understand how you can rattle on for pages about the nation, the founders, and how we don't deserve their sacrifice, and then you can hassle others because what they say doesn't fit your view.  Usually by bludgeoning us with more pages of preaching.

Being right does not mean you are being effective.....being effective does not mean you are not being right.   

This program is doing this every weekend of the year, in nearly dozens of locations weekly......where else does this happen?   Where else is this level of effectiveness?

I would certainly hope we are matching being right with being effective.  I'm not sure we are either.  Sure, we have people shooting, but we aren't effective yet.  Down the road, as we grow and more people are a part of this, we may be effective, but if we are not right, then to what purpose?  This is why we were discussing this.  It's the whole point of the program and all our efforts. 

I guess this has resolved most of my issues.

[Fred]

     Dan, I hope your issues are really resolved, and no hard feelings lurk under the surface anywhere.

     But I bet there are others who share your view, and still harbor those feelings.

     I don't understand why, since there are clearly defined parameters relating to Appleseed and what it is - and what it's mission is.

     They've pretty much been in place, right from the beginning.

     So when you decide to join the program, you join the program. It doesn't join you.

     To the extent you or anyone else differs from those basic parameters, you are free to disagree.

      I don't think anyone is "shutting anyone else" up when we ask people who are volunteering for the Appleseed mission to stay on that mission.

      I don't know who or how many have been bludgeoning you - I suspect there's a bit of overstatment in that comment.

      But it's simple common sense, as someone else on the thread has suggested, to "stay on message, stay on mission".

     If you have comments to improve the program, PM them to me, and I'll give them a fair hearing. After all, I don't like wasting my time, and if you come up with something more effective, something that will enable us to "save the country" with less time and effort, I'm all for it.

     The only reason I see for anyone being unhappy is if he's found a "better way" to do it, and can't get anyone to listen. I'm listening.

      That goes for anyone reading this thread.

    PS: I'm not aware of any "hassling", but if anyone experiences that, Scout has been the contact person to report any such activity. Or, you can report it to me. Your choice.

[smiley_dan]

So what exactly is the mission?  I guess I should know, I thought I knew, but the last time I talked about this with people, no one agreed.

[scuzzy]

So what exactly is the mission?  I guess I should know, I thought I knew, but the last time I talked about this with people, no one agreed.

I guess for me the mission is learning to shoot. For others who have got the patch, it is teaching how to shoot. Heck, I've been to more than a few shoots and still trying for that patch. I'm knocking on the Rifleman door thanks to the people from Appleseed. This is one dangerous old man out to 500 yds thanks to Appleseed. I'd have never believed I could do that until getting to an AS shoot.

I guess shooting is the bottom line for me since that is kind of the last resort for when all else fails. Ain't nobody gonna be talking politics. We'll all be brothers then. Religion and politics will be out the window then. I hope my brothers know how to shoot if/when that comes to pass.

So the bottom line: Shooting.

I'll have to admit I'm pretty down on the current state of affairs in this country myself. It was said earlier by somebody that the people who wrote the Constitution couldn't ever possibly know how bad things could get. Actually they did. There was a group called the Anti-Federalist. They predicted what was going to happen. They got the Bill of Rights (yeah 2nd amendment) tacked onto the Constitution. But the Bill of Rights is pretty much dead now. Maybe we ought to just have a funeral and admit it. heh. Danged lawyers found loopholes in the Constitution to get around the Bill of Rights. Hell, the Constitution was written and passed pretty much in secret. It's a good story. Search Anti-Federalist for anyone that likes some history.

Ahhhh, I usually stay away from these kinda conversations....they need a campfire far more than a keyboard, and some time to absorb things.......a good pipe doesn't hurt either.....

Yup, and a case or two of cold beer, maybe even a bottle of hooch. This post would be a hell of a good campfire discussion. I bet we could all have a good time, have a good laugh, and have the company of people who believe in freedom, no matter what freedom means  to each one of us.

OK gents, any takers on how to get this thread on to the Appleseed message?   

I'm hoping shooting is part of the Appleseed message.