Cleaning up a repro Bess

[Kaylee]

So oldfudd and I were talking, and we got to thinking it'd be good to have a single point of reference for cleaning up the Bess repros we got for show and tell. He's been doing black powder stuff for a while, so I'll let him take over with any advice he has.

In the meantime, here's a letter one of our other folks got from Loyalist Arms, a commercial importer for the factory we ordered from:

Thanks for yuor email.

The stock is made of Rosewood. It is very similar in grain to walnut, but it is more expensive , & harder and should last longer.

2ND BROWN BESS LOAD DATA:

You will notice that the frizzen has some scratches in it. We personally test all these guns to make sure they spark well.

Proof test the barrel with 150 grains of FFG BLACKPOWDER ONLY and a ball.
We strongly recommend when you proof test the barrel, to not fire it from your shoulder,
but in a proper fixture. All muzzle loading firearms should be proof tested.

The recommended Max. charge is 75-80 grains FFG black powder or less with a ball.
For blank loads, heavier charges can certainly be used.

You will have to thoroughly clean the barrel of the gun.

The caliber is .76 and round ball of .735  with over ball paper wadding must be used, should you decide to fire live ammo and not blanks.
Do not patch the ball tightly, simply use the wadding on top of the ball.

A word of caution: Never dry fire or snap a flintlock with an open frizzen ( flint must be in cock jaws.).

Flint size 1"


PLEASE NOTE:
This loading/proofing data applies to Loyalist Arms muskets only.
Loyalist Arms assumes no responsibility for damage or injury if this data is used on other manufacturers

And here's a link to a place on drilling them live:
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/imgHowTo/DrillTouchHole/touchholedrill.pdf


It will be some time before I can get to cleaning mine up to make it look more like the originals for show and tell, but if anyone else wants to step up, please feel free.

[oldfudd]

OK, let me start with first things first.  I totally disassembled the musket.  The lock comes out easily with 2 screws, the trigger housing too.  To get the barrel out of the stock, you need to remove the tang screw, the upper sling swivel AND all of the stock through pins with a small punch.  Only then will the barrel release from the stock (I think there are about 4 attachment points along the barrel that are pinned (1 of which is held in by the upper swivel screw).

The biggest problem I encountered is with the lock itself.  I totally disassembled it using a mainspring vise I had, and found all parts to be very dirty, and apparently never cleaned after manufacture (including metal slivers, grime, etc.).  Plus, when assembled after manufacture, no lube/grease had been used.  In addition, the bridle on mine was  bent enough to prevent the tumbler and hammer from going to full cock.  If you've never disassembled a lock like this, take notes, but it is not too difficult to see how everything works.  The only difficult area might be in reassembling the mainspring and frizzen spring if you don't have a mainspring vise (mine is Civil War era, or 45-70 era).  I think vise grips would work OK, though.

When you have the lock apart, I'd recommend you do the following things:  deburr all the pieces using a fine toothed file or even wet/dry paper (light use by a dremel is OK too).  If not deburred, things will hang up.  Next, you need to make sure on the lock plate the the area under the (rotating) tumbler is smooth.  Mine had a welded area that was pretty rough.  Again, you can use a fine toothed file to do this, followed by polishing with wet/dry paper. 

When the musket is apart, you might want to remove any surface rust (mine had a little in some places) with a Scotch brite pad or wet/dry paper.  This will also remove any highly polished areas -- I want mine to be bright, but not polished.  I then carefully removed all the brass furniture from the stock for polishing and general clean up.  Note:  the butt plate is held on with 2 screws and a through pin at the top.

Reassemble the lock -- I used gun grease to lube all parts that rub against the lock plate.  Also check that parts that move against the lock plate are flat, and not bowed or otherwise bent.  When done, everything should work without undue resistance.  Don't be too discouraged when you find that the "precision" doesn't match Volquartsen standards.     Things are pretty sloppy.

This is about all I've done to date.  I'll next try to dye my stock a medium walnut color and buff the brass pieces to make them smooth and pretty.  I'll try to scrounge up a proper flint, and drill the flash hole.

Eventually I'll "proof" the barrel after I mooch a couple of round balls from my Skirmisher friends that shoot smooth bores.

I'll keep my progress posted.  If anybody has problems with the lock, feel free to PM me (oldfudd).  I'm not an expert or a gunsmith, but have some knowledge about early locks.  Disclaimer:  I wrote this from memory, so use common sense in disassembly as I may have forgotten to mention something, or my count (# of screws, pins etc.) may be incorrect.  If it doesn't move under a reasonable amount of force, you've probably missed something.

Dick Gapen (oldfudd)

[oldfudd]

Something I just noticed -- after reading the link to drilling the flash hole.  As best as I can tell, the breech plugs on our muskets are not easily removed.  I figure the way around this is to measure inside the bore from muzzle to where the breech plug is encountered.  Shouldn't be too difficult, but I'll comment after I've drilled my flash hole.  (Wish me luck.)

Dick

[Old Dog]

You'd be amazed at what some 0000 steel wool with a few drops of light oil will do when rubbed over a rusty spot.  I've never had it remove bluing or parkerizing but it gets the rust.  If you could have seen that old Browning Auto 5 before I worked it over you wouldn't believe its the same gun I took pictures of.

I've never used anything but 3n1 oil on a rag to wipe off guns and they don't rust when stored away in cases, even when stored for 8 or 10 years - as long as you don't put them in a wet case or let the case get wet, etc. 

I've never owned a black powder gun (most likely never will) but it you're going to shoot them (ball or blanks) be sure to read up on how to clean to remove the corrosive material left behind when using black powder.  It will destroy a barrel pretty quickly in humid/moist conditions.

[oladcock]

Mine should be here tomorrow. I've tried buying black powder and no one carries it. Would Pyrodex work? I'd think it would, will just have to work up a load.....O.L.

[Old Dog]

You know, after thinking about, if I had a reproduction like these I'd be really tempted to degrease the metal parts that you can't see (back side of the parts that fit into the stock or against the wood) and paint them with some type of good primer and paint to help keep down the possibility of rust where you can't see it every day.

OL, pyrodex is supposed to a black powder substitute but I don't know how the amounts per shot compare.

[K98Al]

Pyrodex for rifles will work fine. The thing to remember is with BP or Pyrodex loads are expressed as grains, but are really measured in volume. So, if you have a powder measure that is marked for 50 grains - that would be correct in either BP or Pyrodex. I'm not sure what a typical load would be for a Bess, I shoot 90 grains of Pyrodex with a .50 round ball in my rifle.

The problem you may run in to, is getting a good powder to prime with. BP is sold as "F", "FF", etc... and these designations tell you how fine the powder is. Coarsest powder for cannon, finest for priming (PRIMING ONLY) flintlocks. Do not use anything but rifle powder inyour barrel, and ONLY use BP or Pyrodex.

[jmdavis]

The likely problem with pyrodex will be in the pan. Most flint shooters use BP (2F in the barrel) and 3 or 4F in the pan. If the pyrodex doesn't work there are BP distributors that will ship it (with a $25 Hazmat charge).

In your area a good bet would be Track of the Wolf. In the East, Powder Valley and Dixie are good. If in VA, Bob's Sports in Richmond, Clark Brothers in Warrenton and Back Creek up in Winchester all stock BP. Back Creek has several manufactureres and granulations (from canon to 4F).

If you plan to shoot these, I would suggest that you do some reading on Loyalist and Middletsex on the various Rev War forums. They are a resource that can be very helpful. One area to be careful of is the breech.

Also, Ken Guy has some photos for a proof tester at the following URL, it will give you ideas on how to proof your barrel.   http://www.tennesseehogrifle.com/Gun_Building_Tools.php

You don't want to be holding the gun when you proof it.

[Scarecrow]

Good luck on using pyrodex or other substitute in a flintlock.
I have tried.
Ignition will be problematical as they are designed for percussion ignition.
One could mix in some BP with the substitute for better ignition.
I just stick with BP for flinting.

[oladcock]

I've done percussion muzzle loading for many years so no doubt many of the same rules apply. I see Hodgdons makes an FFG BP substitute. Primer powder shouldn't be a problem, all you need is a mortal and pestle! ...O.L.

[oldfudd]

I've tried Pyrodex but am not too happy with it versus real black powder.  For a source of black powder, you might see if a "skirmisher" lives in your neck of the woods.  The North-South Skirmish Association is a national group, and have shoots all over the country.  Although they don't use flint locks, they do use percussion caps and black powder.  You can find a lot of information about N-SSA online.  Their web site is: www.n-ssa.org.

The problem with obtaining black powder is that the BATF requires it to be stored separately from smokeless powder in a special bunker ('cause BP is an explosive, and smokeless is a propellant       ).  Too many regulations and rules for most gunshops to be bothered for relatively small sales.

Oh, one IMPORTANT point using black powder -- do NOT use a regular smokeless powder dispenser to meter it out.  The dispenser could create a spark from friction or static electricity and detonate black powder.  Only use a dipper, or a special black powder dispenser (using only non-sparking materials) for black powder.

Good luck, and be careful.

Dick

[oladcock]

Yep, that's what our local shops say. I think they (BATF) is splitting hairs in trying to boil the frog. Now how do we make Pyrodex smoke more? ....O.L.

[asminuteman]

Bezon Kaylee,

*hands on hips*.....girl friend!
brick dust......would be correct....iffin you have a mind to be PC.......

I see some good thoughts,.....yet *my 2 cents*...short abridged version
I have had NO issues with BP.....iffin ya use BP....and correctly clean....(perfer 3f hogdens)(I burn 25lbs a year minimum! in just the rifle)
rifles or smoothbore, 2f lots of fouling iffin yer doin blanks, does better if naked/or patched ball is used,
ya ya I see they ask fer paper wad over....works also, iffin yer gonna make cartridges, want the pattern? its on FF (barraks)
with that said, no fouling with 3f, its just a better burn.....your choice....this ain't FF if you know what I mean!
Also, marketing wise you can get "re-enactor" powder for $5. a pound, and using a "wooden" dowel grind yer own 2/3f......for demo....(save the good stuff for hunting) I make 8f for pan...WOW quick ignition!..yet change prime daily...wicks moisture out of the air
that new fangal-ed "garbage"(BP SUBstitute)...(My humble opinion) is the idea of some San Fran fag.
Their are reasons for using the "real" stuff......that go beyond ballistics,

you know my addy, Iffin ya want a novel,  (forcing me to type)....(lets not get into speling)
so if not me, JMD is a wise ol coot....or harp at the "other" haunts....FF/TMF/TMA ect.


"flint in jaws"..."wooden"...sub for alignment works well also.....
but correct, dropping the hammer without flint OR without frizzen closed IS BAD JUJU!
you will break the hammer............see g gedney godwin $1. ea.
bess's also prefer "lead in jaws" as apossed to leather.....try and judge for your self

you ordered from loyalist?......ok for India repros- dam fine people also......
for demos and show n tell they'll give you good service.....frizzen will loose its temper(hardness)
doesn't have enough carbon in the metal........

So "Jen" you have a nice winter season...at the top of the world...call if you want to talk,
and any friend of yours is mine also......

wohdoh nah
asminuteman/ken doyle /truculentturtle

so what ya git fer the gift exchange? @FF..........
until the next campfire

[slim]

This will be my first foray into the BP world.

Thanks to Kaylee for setting this up and to the rest of you for putting this info on here. Keep it coming!

[asminuteman]

You know, after thinking about, if I had a reproduction like these I'd be really tempted to degrease the metal parts that you can't see (back side of the parts that fit into the stock or against the wood) and paint them with some type of good primer and paint to help keep down the possibility of rust where you can't see it every day.

OL, pyrodex is supposed to a black powder substitute but I don't know how the amounts per shot compare.

Bezon Sir,

Couple of thoughts if I may, "paint" is a 20th century, band aid, when it comes to BP stuff.
yer correct to think of the "inner"or under sides of "metal" parts you wont see everyday.
yet, odd as it seams those places need to "breath"...use mink oil.....(from T.O.W.).
also, taking the barrel out of a stock, to offen, WILL loosen barrel pins, yielding a "flawed weapon".
(read between the lines on that one) :cool2

And as to "degrease" for BP......I seen and tried some folks "homemade" recipes for inside the barrel.
seam to me to have more rust begin! dam Colonials were some cleaver folks, natural stuff was used for many reasons. Now with all that said: you can do the things yer thinking, and it will work...for a time....probably the life of your ownership.......but it is just as easy and QUITE a bit cheaper to do it the "old" fashion way......... warm water(free)tad bit of soap(kitchen dude)....mink oil  ($5. large tin) sweet oil (olive oil/in the kitchen) and throw away cloth garments for patches.......yer bonus...its FASTER.....
you just need to see it done, I've seen some utube stuff out there, didn't pay much mind,cause I know how.....my bad

good luck to you
your most humble and obedient servent

wohdoh nah
-k

[asminuteman]

This will be my first foray into the BP world.

Thanks to Kaylee for setting this up and to the rest of you for putting this info on here. Keep it coming!

Bezon slim,
yes SIR! Kaylees a great soul, you'd like her iffin ya git the chance to meet her!....I did *w*@ J

There are many knowledgeable folks here, when it comes to BP, and period weaponry.
Although you and I have never spoken before , feel free to call upon myself for questions.
"All I need to know is that your an appleseeder".........rather kewl quote don'tca think?

-k

[oldfudd]

My favorite homemade BP solvent is:

1 Pint Murphy's Oil Soap
1 Pint Hydrogen Peroxide
3 Pints rubbing alcohol
Fill the jug up with cheap windshield washer fluid

I've used it for years without any rust or corrosion problems.  It isn't flammable, won't eat the paint off the floor, doesn't smell too bad, won't harm the stock, and is cheap.  I usually mix up about a gallon a year.  It will, however, sting like crazy if you've got cuts on your hands.

Something else you'll need to consider is a breech plug scraper to get the built up carbon off the breech plug (since I don't think the breech plug is removable).  A wire bore brush won't reach the flat end of the plug.  The scraper is simply a short metal cylinder (a little less than the diameter of the bore) with a horizontal bar across one end, and a threaded hole to attach a ramrod or cleaning rod on the other end.  All you do is slam it down the bore until it reaches the end, rotate it a little while smacking it against the breech plug, and then rotate it to scrape accumulated carbon build up from the breech plug.  Then dump the loosened carbon out of the bore.

After using the above solvent, be sure to dry and oil the bore - otherwise it will rust as the solvent effectively removes all oil too.

Dick

[Old Dog]

You know, my father-in-law told me a tale about taking a muzzle loader barrel, making a tight hickory wood plug for each end of it, driving the plug into the breech and muzzle ends and covering it up in a large (shovelled it up to get enough) pile of pretty fresh cow dung and letting it sit for a period of time (don't remember the number of days).  He said it made the most beautiful brown finish on the metal you could imagine once the stuff in the cow stuff did its magic.  All he had to do was clean off the cow stuff, remove the hickory wood plugs and wipe it down with an oily rag.

Its another one of those things I'll never try to do.

[jmdavis]

Something else you'll need to consider is a breech plug scraper to get the built up carbon off the breech plug (since I don't think the breech plug is removable).

Is the plug welded?

[asminuteman]

breech plug is removable.....but HIGHLY not recommended!     

Fouling scraper,....the carbon build up, and/or fouling et al, is an issue related to granual size of powder used-load volume-burn of charge and mantainance of the peice, you should have one (scraper) yet thats a band aid fix to other underlying issues.       

a good quaility jag(correct size among other things) is the most vital equipment

Bezon oldfudd,        *tip of the tricorn*
that mix you speak of, I've tried something simular to it....and yes its not bad.       

-k           

[jmdavis]

I was just afraid that the plug was welded and that brings up all kinds of not so good thoughts for me.

Having built a few kits and breached a barrel or two, I would have to agree with the "not recommended" warning. Traditionally a barrel would only be unbreached to refresh the rifling (not an issue with a smoothbore Bess), fix a burnt out touch hole with a liner (normally poured platinum or gold), or to salvage the barrel for other purposes (VERY common in the early days of the country and common up until the 1940's or so in the Mountains of Appalachia).

[asminuteman]

Bezon  JMD,

how are yee- these days!......
yep I agree with ya! (re:barrel plug)...I've delt with a few (loyalist arms India repros)
early ones were welded.....even now folks have unknowingly welded as a fix....
Those repros are safe enough for what their going to be used fer.....
If they care for them, those repros will give years of safe and relyable service to their owners.
its a good soild BP learning experience........(with that said) wouldn't hunt or trust my life to one.
yet to teach with......ok

Did ya note on their load recommendation the "75-80gr" ......funny the "real" ones being fired at us were loaded at 120gr!......heck I never load my .62 under 90gr! (behind ball).....I admit to 75-120gr depending on just how LOUD~n~smokey I want the blank to be in parades.........*L*
*anit I a stinker*

you be safe, have a grand holiday season with family
yer most humble and obedient servent
-k
pvt 11th Virginia

[oladcock]

Mine got here tonight, looks great! My wife likes it but I think she was more hoping the bayonet was with it! Should I be worried? Historically, were these typically browned? Will get started cleaning her up tomorrow...O.L.

[asminuteman]

Mine got here tonight, looks great! My wife likes it but I think she's more interested in the bayonet! Should I be worried? Historically, were these typically browned? Will get started cleaning her up tomorrow...O.L.

Bezon oladcock,
NO...not blued or browned

gleming, bright shiney metal !
cleaning and polishing was done with brick dust......

congrats on yer charcoal puffer...I hope she serves you well

-k

[oladcock]

Got mine apart, yep, rough and dirty! I'll take it one step at a time, buff up all the brass and I think I'll replace all the steel pins with brass. K&S racks at your local hardware stores has multiple sizes. I marked the spot for the flash hole before disassembly and preliminary measurement looks like it might hit the breach plug? If not it'll be darned close.

Question? I expected the frizzen to be rough like a file, it's not. Is that normal? Or should I rough it up with something like 40 grit?....O.L.

[asminuteman]

Got mine apart, yep, rough and dirty! I'll take it one step at a time, buff up all the brass and I think I'll replace all the steel pins with brass. K&S racks at your local hardware stores has multiple sizes. I marked the spot for the flash hole before disassembly and preliminary measurement looks like it might hit the breach plug? If not it'll be darned close.

Question? I expected the frizzen to be rough like a file, it's not. Is that normal? Or should I rough it up with something like 40 grit?....O.L.

Bezon oladcock,

My suggestion,
-leave the steel pins, and do-not replace
-flash hole supposed to close to the bottom of the charge (hence close to the breech plug)
-do-not ruff up the frizzen(no its not suppose to be like a file)

clean - de-burr - polish - lubricate.....AND ABOVE ALL ENJOY

keep askin if you have questions
-k

[oladcock]

"-leave the steel pins, and do-not replace"

Why? Strength certainly isn't an issue.

Yep, I know the flash hole should be close but this looks like it's going to go into the plug......O.L.

[asminuteman]

Bezon OL,

"pins".... more of a hardness issue
-brass is softer then steel,
-would you get the exact same dia..or just would they be "similar" (made in India mind you)
-your asking "whats" correct......answer is steel, not brass
-removing pins to much loosens the barrel, by opening up the holes in the wood
-to remove pins, you need a punch, to push them out....(made of steel) back to brass is softer
which one of the metals will deform first?....so we're quickly back to the 1st point brass is soft.
-brass being softer then steel, Which do you feel will hold the barrel tighter in the stock?
and not deform from normal use and the accidental love from handling?

this can go on ...I'm sure you got the jist
you can do as you want (not calling ya out here/its not a gottca moment)(folks have asked for advice from us experienced with flint firearms (firelocks to be correct))
I've been heavily involed in flinters for darn near 40yrs now.......so like the barrel plug statement in a past post.
"you can do it - but its HIGHLY NOT recommended"


I hope this points toward an answer
-k

*touch hole/barrel plug*
you do have a ram rod?
(*curious question* do they give ya  a wood or steel ramer?)....makes a difference as to which model bess only..........don't fret....My curious george moment
even within the long land(1st model) there were variations

you can drop it down the barrel (ringing the barrel) and use it for a "measuring tape"..I'm sure you did or something simular.
did they give instructions for placement of touch hole?, being as if it a functiuon of heat NOT fire to transfer through the hole to set of the charge.....it needs to be low in the pan.
theres a guy, right now on another forum, whos rather expencive rifle is trashed because of this exact problem.......

anyway

[slim]

covering it up in a large (shovelled it up to get enough) pile of pretty fresh cow dung and letting it sit for a period of time

Moist coffee grounds will also do the trick.

Unless you have enough of your own BS I'd recommend the coffee!

[oladcock]

ASM, "*touch hole/barrel plug*
you do have a ram rod?
(*curious question* do they give ya  a wood or steel ramer?)....makes a difference as to which model bess only..........don't fret....My curious george moment
even within the long land(1st model) there were variations"

Came with a steel and yes, that's what I did was measure with the ramrod. I got a piece of alluminum rod to get a more precise measurement (round end of the ramrod hard to line up) and with the flash hole drilled in the center bottom of the pan, it will be dead center at the end on the breech plug. In other words, 1/2 of the bit will hit the plug. That'll probably work, just don't like the idea of the drill bit hitting the plug but moving it forward and up, it won't be in the bottom of the pan.

Busy now cleaning and polishing all the brass parts, going to touch up the stock and tung oil the heck out of it over the next several days. Don't know what oil/finish they have on it but it's soft and gummy. I enjoy this kind of work so no biggy....O.L.