Cleaning up a repro Bess

[oldfudd]

OL -- PHEW !!    Finally screwed up the courage to drill my flash hole.  Ran a 1/16" bit in at a 20 degree angle and broke out just about the middle of the breech plug.  Everything looks good.  Am wondering if the hole should be larger?  Guess I'll try it at 1/16" to see if it works OK, else I'll maybe open it up to 3/32".

AS -- not to be obtuse, but what does "farbie" stand for?

Hey guys, want to tell all of you how much I appreciate the comments and advice on building my Bess.  It's looking petty good, and I can't wait to proof the barrel so I can shoot the thing.  If the repro is fairly accurate, I now see why the Brits didn't use the "Aim" command -- it's almost impossible to get my eye down to barrel level due to the angle of the butt stock.

Dick

[asminuteman]

Hehehehehehe................"farbie"

<----I should let Kaylee discribe.......NO SHES NOT "farbie"......I've just heard her exclaim she likes "farbie stuff" on another one of our haunts.

Farbie is a word used to discribe one who is new to muzzleloading/reenacting/living history OR
the "equipment" that someone new has, .........Not all first timers get the correct "gizmos" when starting out,...it could be not of the correct time period (PC=period correct)(sometimes doesn't matter).
and/or (HC=historically correct) (it didn't exsit at all!)

in the discussion we're all having......doesn't mean a HOOT IN HELL.....
The rifle (smoothbore) is all that matters in this teaching format, add to that that you can operate it (safely).......the rest is "Fluff"!.......and I'm someone that'l give the FULL measure of HC/PC at a demo....yet I can, which in no way should be a downer to others wanting to learn......

I learned because I was PULLED into campfires &/treckks/parades/honor gaurds/reenactments...."all decked out farbie"...as it was.....and got to play with the correct tools, the correct way to do ......I was "included!".......and instructed........sounds like appleseed doesn't it......no one judged me for being incorrect...they choose to teach me.......and thats the path I choose...to teach, not judge

I'll go back to a saying that I posted many moons ago......it explains the difference between teacher and instructors.........."School don't Scould".......it never a gottca moment.....
I prefer to be a teacher..........

anyway I hope you got the jist.....a writer I am not.........
-k

[oladcock]

The only thing holding me back is rocks, balls, and powder.

"it's almost impossible to get my eye down to barrel level due to the angle of the butt stock."

Mine seems to fit pretty well. Oh course I won't know till I get some shots through it but the barrel tang screw is fuzz as I focus on the front sight/bayonet lug. Looks to me one could use it as a rear sight, keeping the front centered, and how much of the front sight you "see" is elevation. I'd bet one could get fairly accurate with it. It's a shoulder cannon for sure! ....O.L.

[oladcock]

ASM, Definately have appreciated your input and if I've seemed dismissive at times of some of the historical detail, I apologize. Don't have much time in a seed to spend on the Bess but if they can take away an appreciation of the skill/knowledge it took to have an advantage over the Regulars, and they know what a "Frizzen" is, mission accomplished.....O.L.

[asminuteman]

well, ...*scratchen chin*

a rear sight on the firelock is a waste of time......(brown bess)
ball is bouncing down the barrel......hence the 60-70 yrds limited shot range.

yet you tighten up the ball/patch combo, run up the charge! and I have read tales of 150 yards!
in the hands of someone with experience.....now thats the MAX....and its still a man size grouping

Its (a brown bess) more of a "matter of fact " weapon.......point in the general direction and ?
with practice you can get proficent.       
Now at the Corona 210 this year I was hitting the 100yd redcoat with ease@25m (brwon bess)
*scared some folks*...hehehehe
then switched to my .62 rifle......were do you want it to hit?.....right shoulder...ok
head ok........one of my IITs.... thought I was superhuman....
they were noting that I had no sling and 3 feet of steel hanging out in front of me
what cool about the large CALs is that you can see the holes without going down range.....*L*

[asminuteman]

ASM, Definately have appreciated your input and if I've seemed dismissive at times of some of the historical detail, I apologize. Don't have much time in a seed to spend on the Bess but if they can take away an appreciation of the skill/knowledge it took to have an advantage over the Regulars, and they know what a "Frizzen" is, mission accomplished.....O.L.

put your mind at ease.....
questions were asked.....
answers were givin.........
YOU are the best judge as to the path you travel NOT someone else......*hummmm*....sounds familar
you asked a question, got several opinions.....for the most part saying the same thing, different wording.....*YippIe*.......
you must be "saluted" just for courage to ask......(if you know what i mean).....
remember ...I don't judge.....(yet if I stand farther away while you shoot....do the math)...*L*

there are several others  here quite knowledgeable, who I thought would have chimed in more......
so don't just listen to me.....weight your choices....

by the way SIR!......Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family and friends today!

[oladcock]

"by the way SIR!......Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family and friends today!"

Same to you are yours!    Eyeballing this bird, wonder what a load of single oughts out of this muzzle stuffer would do? .....O.L.

[Kaylee]

I finally got to see ours!

I got the long land, my boyfriend got a short (a true Lakonian.  ) - these were nicer than I expected!

In a way, this is also a "before and after" - they both started the same color, but mine's been stripped (in hindsight, I don't know as that was necessary), stained (lots) with walnut woodstain to try and get it looking a little more European, and then finished with flax oil.




I was a little surprised to see the curvature of the lockplates differed between the models. While putting this project together, I read that historically that was the case, but I wasn't expecting the relatively cheap copies to do so. I also really like the carving on the older Long Land model - there's a mid-18th century elegance to the lines that's just beautiful. The later period model is a lot more workmanlike.



I lost a couple of the pins though (rolled off back behind his workbench I think). They look like just plain cut off nails or wire though, so finding some replacements shouldn't be hard.

Mine did have a little bit of corrosion along the barrel/stock line but it seemed to clean up okay. Just a lot more polishing ahead I guess.

[oladcock]

Kaylee, Yep, nails! I used 1/8" brass for all my pins. Those pins in the barrel carry no load, they are strictly to keep the stock from warping. The front sling screw is steel and between that and the tang screw, carries all the recoil loads. The brass pins look nice! Nice looking but glad I got the long land. Got powder on order, got balls....Rocks should be here tomorrow. So I hope to get it proofed this week and use it in it's first demo in Lubbock next weekend....O.L.

[Rizzin]

oladcock, got a link to where you are getting your ball & powder?

I've had my Bess replica sense end of May and its great during story time, but no ball or powder for it yet.

[oladcock]

Well, wish me luck, I'm going out to proof this hand cannon this afternoon.  I'm concerned the frizzen spring is too strong. It throws a good spark but doesn't "trip" the frizzen over-center every time. It maybe my flint isn't extended far enough out from the hammer.

I'll set it in a weighted bench rest, tie it down, loaded with 150gr FFG and a paper patched .735" round ball. I'll tie a string to the trigger, get back, and see what happens. If it and I survive, going by the first email, I'll try a couple loads of 80grs FFG and ball. Should be fun!

Below is a link I found most informative.....O.L.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/flintlocks.htm

[oladcock]

It shoots! It Shoots!  Survived the proof test with a cloud of smoke, seemed to be no worse for wear. Proceeded to shoot 4 more shots from the shoulder, very pleasant recoil. The first shot after the proof shot, took 2 strikes to get er to light off. The next 2 however fired 100%. Now I have no clue if I'm doing things "right" but here's what I did. I made up some paper cartridges following the pattern in an earlier link. He was making blanks so I used a 3/4" dowel to roll the tubes, crimped the end, dropped in a .735" ball, then I dunked about 3/4" of the tube in hot parifin, let that cool. Next I wadded up a sheet of TP, pressed that on top of the ball to keep powder from falling in around the ball, topped that with 80grs of FFG, folded the loose end of the paper tube into a point, folded it over and tucked it into the wound cartridge seam.
When loading I just tore off the fold over part, poured the powder into the barrel, tore off the excess paper and shoved everything down the barrel. I used the same FFG to prime.

After the 4th shot it was getting tight loading. From reading, .69" balls might be better when just dinking around for demo purposes to make loading easiser.

So...I'm very pleased so far, and yes, I flinched on the mis-fires, more ball and dummy for me! That in front of your face is different to say the least......O.L.

[ID_Hezekiah]

  in front of your face - there's a reason they call them "Flinchlocks!"

[desertrat144]

ALRIGHT!!!

A couple of things to try, when making cartridges, tie off the top and behind the ball with a thread, it will stabilize the TP wadding.  Also, very carefully grind your priming powder to a 4f consistency, the ol eye ball method will work, and it gives you a more volatile surface to catch a spark from.

Tom 

[Kaylee]

I just got back from the Mason's National Heritage Museum in Lexington, MA.

They had several colonial fowlers with provenance back to the Concord fight!
The curator I spoke with said the Bess's they had on display were of the right era and in some cases units, but just given how military property was/is handled, it's impossible to say for instance "yes, this Long Land marked 4th of Foot was actually carried on Lexington Green."

Still - very cool! 

For what it's worth - the features on that LL were (mostly illegible in a case/dim light) unit markings on the thumbpiece and barrel, the "bubbly" sideplate and knobly forearm like the LL we got, but the flat wood under the trigger guard, brass endcap, and "trumpet" front thimble like the Short Lands we got. Size is hard to guess - pressed to it, I'd say closer to the short. Lockplate was marked "Dublin Castle."

There was also an older Bess with a wooden rammer, and a Short Land (marked Tower).

Of the Colonial arms - one had very crude sights (a groove filed in the rear of the breechplug), most just a front lug like a musket, but a little more refined. Furniture was *mostly* brass, but one was very nice (silver I think?) and one iron I believe. Lots of droopy buttstocks like on modern CZ 22s, and mostly smaller bores than the military muskets. Almost all were fitted with bayonets though, which looked a little odd on civilian arms. But they did it.

Unfortunately, no pictures were allowed. 


By the way... they had THE TRUNK. 

[mac66]

Kaylee, thanks for the pictures and the report from the museum.  After seeing your musket, I am kind of wishing I'd gotten the long land version. Oh well. mine is still cool. Haven't attempted to mess with it yet. Taking it to an AS shoot this weekend to show it to a couple reenactor types who always bring their muskets and give some history at this club. Hopefully, I will hook up some contacts for the stuff I need to get it up an running.

PS. Sure wish I had a bayonet 

[Kaylee]

PS. Sure wish I had a bayonet

Me to!
... I'll pester him again. He said they'd be shipping ages ago.   
[edit -oh wait. *heh* They're in Paris. We should get them tomorrow.  ]
[edit again - they updated their arrival estimate. Last marked in Memphis TN, Dec 2. Here Monday it looks like. ]
[edit again - they're at the local sort facility. Almost certainly Monday]

(I think I personally prefer the Long Land, seeing them both up close now - but I have to admit, of those we got the Short is closer to the one they had on display for the 4th of Foot.)

[slim]

UPS says my Bess will arrive tomorrow. Huzzah!!! (And yes, that makes me the biggest procrastinator of the group.)

[slim]

She's here! HUZZAH!!!

Nothing like coming home and finding a long brown box on the front porch. I felt like Ralphie in A Christmas Story. My wife was asking what it was and I was just couldn't stop smiling and peeling off bubble wrap and smiling and peeling and WOW!!! She sure is tall!

I was all ginger and easy, really handling it carefully and then I realized, this thing was made out of hard metal and wood. A real firearm!

I'm out on the AST for a few weeks but I'll get back into this thread when I can. In the mean time, where do you folks recommend for ordering supplies like flints, ball-making gear, BP, etc.?

Huzzah, huhzzah, huzzzzzzzzaaaa!

[Kaylee]

slim -

I ordered the following from Najecki just to get ours looking right:
Mainspring vice - to be able to take the lock apart and clean up the lockplate
British musket tool - to be able to more easily fit the flint in the cock (or at least leave authentic buggered up marks on the screw. :p )
A dozen flints
A couple lead pads (dunno how many we need - do they go bad?)
A couple wooden "flints" for dryfiring.

No idea on powder and ball - I've heard nothing but good about Track of the Wolf.

[asminuteman]

<---funny how folks experiences differ
*not gottca* towards anyone..........observation


personally I wouldn't work with Dixie ever again......
Never had an issue with Track of the Wolf.....
Najeccki & G Gedney Goodwin are very high priced, yet good quality stuff.....

added for clarity
thread as a whole, opinions on equipment, locations, etc.
not a gottca moment, just an observation
Its good to have such diversity in the thread
happy to know such fine folks

[Son of Martha]

FYI--

http://www.chuckhawks.com/flintlocks.htm

SoM

[mac66]

Had a chance to show my Bess to a reenacter this weekend.  He said it looked pretty good and certainly within the variances of what was made over the years.

Of course that started the conversation of what I would need to get it up and running (besides drilling the hole).   I am not interested in going whole hog into reenacting but I would like to get some of the shooting accoutrements to show students.

He suggested the following..(list based on memory)
1. Flints, lead flint pads
2. Haversack (cloth)
3. Possibles bag  (leather)
4. Patch knife/sheath
5. Powder horn and priming horn
6. Musket tool w/pick
7. Sling  (he suggested a leather strap over the canvas or linen type, since we are more likely to represent militia. Also holds up better)
8. Patches
9. Musket balls and pouch

Optional  (perhaps for Issac Davis' men)
10. Cartridge box and paper cartridges
11. Bayonet frog
12. Patch cloth (apparently militia carried strips of cloth which they cut patches from as needed with their patch knife)

He also carried a tomahawk   If you go to the Lapeer Mi AAR there are pictures of him doing demo.  He made a lot of his his own stuff and suggested the same.

I know I am forgetting some things and you really don't need a patch knife if using precut patches or paper cartridges.

[oldfudd]

Following up on Mac66's comments.  I've got an unsolicited comment here -- I got a very reasonably priced repro leather sling for my Brown Bess from Smiling Fox Forge via the internet.  It came in natural leather which I died dark, and then sealed it with Mink Oil (Kiwi brand).  I think it looks super and goes great with the musket.  The people at Smiling Fox couldn't have been nicer, or quicker to fill my order.  I'll buy from them again in a heartbeat.  FYI

Dick

[slim]

He also carried a tomahawk 

As does the reenactor around here. The general concensus seems to be most men who were 7 years war vets saw first hand the value of carrying a 'hawk and continued to do so even during the revolution. If we're to be period-correct, we should probably add one to our kit. Most reenactors have all three edged weapons (bayo, hawk, knife) on their kit.

Totally out of context here, but I have a modern version of the tomahawk as part of my kit. The tomahawk is just as useful today as it was then. And uniquely American to boot!

[oladcock]

Following up on Mac66's comments.  I've got an unsolicited comment here -- I got a very reasonably priced repro leather sling for my Brown Bess from Smiling Fox Forge via the internet.  It came in natural leather which I died dark, and then sealed it with Mink Oil (Kiwi brand).  I think it looks super and goes great with the musket.  The people at Smiling Fox couldn't have been nicer, or quicker to fill my order.  I'll buy from them again in a heartbeat.  FYI

Dick

Because I was lazy, I got a sling from Dixie, good quality but was too short, probably designed to fit a short land. But a hole punch allowed it to be serviceable barely.....O.L.

[mac66]

 I have a feeling buying this Bess is going to cost me a lot of money in the long run.
I can feel myself being sucked into the vortex.

[oladcock]

I have a feeling buying this Bess is going to cost me a lot of money in the long run.
I can feel myself being sucked into the vortex.

Like we need an excuse! LOL Could have bought a dedicated .22lr upper for one of our AR's for sure!

The bayonet came today, WOW! Wasn't what I expected. Intimidating is an understatement. I'd throw down my musket and grab my longbow, effective range about the same with much higher rate of fire! ...O.L.

[oldfudd]

Perhaps some monetary relief (kind of like reloading) . . . . a friend of mine was into RW reenacting about 30+ years ago, and at that time bought a kit for a RW cartridge box.  I borrowed his box and did some reverse engineering.  I'm just about done and extremely pleased with the results.  It's all hand sewn and looks like a rough version of a CW Enfield box.  I've got about 5 - 6 hours into the project.

He also loaned me his combination tomahawk and bayonet frog.  I intend to do the same reverse engineering on that and make my own.  I'll also do a belt to hold the frog.

If anybody's interested, when I'm done I'll make pictures available of the final projects, "engineering" drawings, and simple directions by email (I don't know how to post pictures on the forum).  I suspect these things will be petty authentic, remember 'cause they didn't have sewing machines in those days and most things were hand made.

Total cost for me (estimated) will be about $26 for the 12 sq ft piece of tanned (low grade) cowhide and about $5 for an authentic looking belt buckle.  The rest of the stuff, including the dye, I had around my basement.  I'll have at least half of the cowhide remaining for "other" projects that I get sucked into.   

Let me know if you're interested.  I'll be looking for an Indian (asian) made tomahawk at the local fun show this weekend -- I've seen them there on earlier visits.

Dick

[desertrat144]

I have a feeling buying this Bess is going to cost me a lot of money in the long run.
I can feel myself being sucked into the vortex.

[Camera zooms into a guy, wearing a black suit, narrow tie, and smoking a cigarette while he speaks] "...it started with a single Brown Bess, a piece of Revolutionary War history, it's initial use was to demonstrate how things were done in 1776, but little did they realize that it had a life of it's own, the journey now begins.  Welcome to the..." Reenactors Zone!

The vortex is real, enjoy the ride!  I did ACW for 30+ years, started with Rev. War.  'Fess up, you are now hooked!

Tom