Cleaning up a repro Bess

[Kaylee]

The colonials apparently had quite a wide variety of weapons and accoutrements - it looks like early on it was still common to use a horn of powder and loose balls instead of rolled cartridges - I've also seen at least one photo of a Revolutionary War improvised "cartridge box" that was just a drilled block shoved into an existing  shoulder pouch.

There's a reference to the town of Concord voting to supply their militia with bayonets, but the nearby Amherst boys apparently didn't even have that.

Which is to say... for the Colonial side of storytime, there's some leeway. 


   

   "To a man they wore small clothes, coming down and fastening just below the knee, and long stockings, with cowhide shoes ornamented with large buckles, while not a pair of boots graced the whole company.

    'The coats and waistcoats were loose and of large dimensions, with colors as various as the barks of oaks, sumach and other trees of our hills and swamps could make them, and their shirts were all made of flax, and like every other part of the dress were home made.

    "On their heads was worn a large round-topped and broadbrimmed hat.

    "Their arms were as various as their costumes. Here an old soldier carried a heavy Queens' arm with which he had done service at the Conquest of Canada twenty years before, while by his side walked a stripling boy, with a Spanish-fusee not half its weight or calibre, which his grandfather may have taken at Havana, while a few had old French pieces, that dated back to the reduction of Louisburg.

    "Instead of the cartridge box, a large powder horn was slung under the arm, and occasionally a bayonet might be seen bristling in the rank.

    "Some of the swords of the officers had been made by our own blacksmiths, perhaps from some farming utensils; they looked serviceable but heavy and uncouth."

    Such was the appearance and equipment of the Continentals, to whom so often and finally, so completely, the well armed, disciplined and uniformed soldiers of "His Majesty" were compelled to surrender.

    Colonial Amherst:
    the early history, customs and homes; geography and geology, of Amherst...
    by Warren Upham

And yeah... that bayonet on the end of those great long muskets - "intimidating" is the word!
(also..um... HEAVY! Gosh those farmboys must have had some arms on 'em!  )

[Cooper]

Let me know if you're interested.  I'll be looking for an Indian (asian) made tomahawk at the local fun show this weekend -- I've seen them there on earlier visits.
Dick

Show us!  Show us!

Click on "Attachments and other options" just below the text box and it will let you browse your pics and post them!

Coop

[jmdavis]

H&B forge does some good ones. I have the lightweight "Lady Hawk" (2lb head). These are wrapped hawks with a hardened steel bit. Made in the US and forged Very rugged mine was $35 at Friendship IN  at the Fall Shoot.

http://www.hbforge.com/products/tomahawks.php


JAS Townsend has a Light Infantry Ax (with hammer poll). Forged (somewhere) for <$25.
http://jas-townsend.com/product_info.php?cPath=20_59&products_id=60

Cold Steel has the rifleman's hawk. When you strip off the paint and sand the handle this makes a good looking hawk. There are a number of videos on youtube of mods to this hawk.

http://www.knifecenter.com/item/CS90RH/cold-steel-riflemans-hawk-drop-forged
mods: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNDmAo5FzY4&feature=relmfu

[Kaylee]

Okay, I guess it's not so off topic. I'll post mine then 

Well - not tomahawks per se, but Colonial era hatchets.
As an aside, I think the hatchet is a wonderful symbol of America's frontier. It's not just a weapon for killing people - it's a tool for building things.  That's just beautifully symbolic I think.   

Anyhow, I've seen references to the French settlers along the old Illinois country using (and dancing with!) pipe tomahawks. They were also produced by the English as trade items. That said, polled hatchets seem more common among white settlers.

Either way, if I was buying off the rack, I think I'd go with the HB ones JM mentioned, or one of these-
http://www.redaviscompany.com/edgedweapons.html


That said, last year I was wanting a nice homemade copy of a colonial era hatchet. As it worked out, I ended up with two.




Edit - per asminuteman's comment below - you can purchase your own replica of Paine's "Common Sense" from:

The Nova Anglia Company
Historical Reproductions
P.O. Box 84
Hinesville, GA 31310-0094
novaanglia@yahoo.com


For philosophy of the Revolutionary era, Locke's Second Treatise on Government and Montesquieu's Spirit of the Laws are so far most expansive and representative I've read [but I am "but an egg!"].

For lots and lots of anecdotes of the early American marksmen, I can't recommend highly enough The Frontier Rifleman by Richard LaCrosse. The early 1770's rifle culture is more "backcountry redneck"  than the comparatively "suburban yuppie" of Concord and Lexington, but there's lots of cool anecdotes for offline storytime. Especially once the backcountry riflemen started pouring into more settled New England as the war heated up. They apparently put on some pretty impressive shows for the locals!


Edit again - this is a little more to the point. I suspect there are other instructions out there, but for the musket this book is full of at least how one militia did it, c. 1760

A plan of discipline, composed for the use of the militia of the county of Norfolk

[asminuteman]

<---also not on thread...

yet in kaylee's last photo......*note*     the pamphlet "common sense"....
I've actually held "That" copy.........and she didn't share the other cool toys.      *stamping foot*

yer pole axe is nice.......but the camp axe is better.....

as a weapon.....stick to a spike tomahawk.....

All things considered: an axe/hawk is unnecessary for a Brown Bess presentation
-k

[oldfudd]

Before this thread goes too far into the nuances of whether a 19" tomahawk handle is better than a 22" inch handle (forgive me, 'cause I'm into it as much as anyone else on this thread), I believe that we all owe a big debt of gratitude to Kaylee and her helpers. 

After getting my hands on what we got for our relatively low dollars (musket & bayonet w/ scabbard), I think we got a heckofa deal, far more than what I really expected.  Kaylee, I want to publically thank you and everyone involved for all of your hard work.  I suspect that when these Besses start showing up at show and tell time, a lot of other AS instructors will wish they had jumped at the opportunity.

THANK YOU KAYLEE.

Dick

[oladcock]

Before this thread goes too far into the nuances of whether a 19" tomahawk handle is better than a 22" inch handle (forgive me, 'cause I'm into it as much as anyone else on this thread), I believe that we all owe a big debt of gratitude to Kaylee and her helpers. 

After getting my hands on what we got for our relatively low dollars (musket & bayonet w/ scabbard), I think we got a heckofa deal, far more than what I really expected.  Kaylee, I want to publically thank you and everyone involved for all of your hard work.  I suspect that when these Besses start showing up at show and tell time, a lot of other AS instructors will wish they had jumped at the opportunity.

THANK YOU KAYLEE.

Dick

I second that!  ....O.L.

[asminuteman]

The ranks shall raise a cheer! 

Huzzah Huzzah Huzzah....

wohdoh nah mad mad kaylee!

Sahwee Tehpeeloolah Kahnohchkay

[asminuteman]

Before this thread goes too far into the nuances of whether a 19" tomahawk handle is better than a 22" inch handle (forgive me, 'cause I'm into it as much as anyone else on this thread),

Bezon Captain Richard, (Dick)

are you saying there are "thread counters" HERE also!.....*L*
I'm not over in "those" forums at the moment.......I'm trying to get away from that garbage
don't ruin my escape to sanity..........yer forcing me to learn ancient rune........or worst picagraphs!

*tip of thee liberty cap*
-k#3

[slim]

Absolutely a big thanks to Kaylee. Huzzah!

[mac66]

I have a feeling buying this Bess is going to cost me a lot of money in the long run.
I can feel myself being sucked into the vortex.

[Camera zooms into a guy, wearing a black suit, narrow tie, and smoking a cigarette while he speaks] "...it started with a single Brown Bess, a piece of Revolutionary War history, it's initial use was to demonstrate how things were done in 1776, but little did they realize that it had a life of it's own, the journey now begins.  Welcome to the..." Reenactors Zone!

The vortex is real, enjoy the ride!  I did ACW for 30+ years, started with Rev. War.  'Fess up, you are now hooked!

Tom

LOL.  There is something familiar about this.  Kind of like, "all I want to do in Appleseed is help out once in awhile"

[EZ3]

Absolutely!  A million thanks, Kaylee!  That's one beautiful musket, and the bayonet arrived just in time for our Winterseed this weekend.  Telling the story well is crucial, but a good visual aid is worth a thousand words (and we don't have time for a thousand words!)     

[mac66]

Well, I just back in town after spending a month down south in which time bayonet arrived. So I just got a chance  look at it and it is pretty cool. Doesn't fit very well, it is very loose. but it's not a big deal, i doubt if I am going to need it in a fight.  . Now that I am home I am looking forward to drilling the flash hole and getting my Bess in firing condition.

[slim]

That was discussed somewhat. (I can't remember where.) Basically what I got from it was the bayonet is supposed to be somewhat loose so the blow is absorbed into the stock and it flexes a little instead of sending all that energy right back into the barrel.

[mac66]

That was discussed somewhat. (I can't remember where.) Basically what I got from it was the bayonet is supposed to be somewhat loose so the blow is absorbed into the stock and it flexes a little instead of sending all that energy right back into the barrel.

Mine is a little more than loose. If you turn the rifle slightly it will fall off.  Not really a big issue.  Actually, now the I look at it closer, it looks like they cut the slot backwards.

[mac66]

Just thought I would bump this up a bit.

Got my bayonet issues solved and contacted a local guy who is the director and founder of the !st Michigan Fife and Drum Corps. The guy lives about a mile from me and has been involved in muskets and such for 37 years. I talked to him at length and he is going to bring me up to speed with Bessie.   Going over to his house Thursday to look at his muskets and stuff. His group uses reproduction Morgan's Riflemen uniforms. And of course I am going to fill him in on Appleseed. Already set the hook, just need to reel him in. Of course he is trying reel me in as well.

Take a look

http://1stmichigan.com/

[slim]

Now that's cool!

[ITB]

Just thought I would bump this up a bit.

Got my bayonet issues solved and contacted a local guy who is the director and founder of the !st Michigan Fife and Drum Corps. The guy lives about a mile from me and has been involved in muskets and such for 37 years. I talked to him at length and he is going to bring me up to speed with Bessie.   Going over to his house Thursday to look at his muskets and stuff. His group uses reproduction Morgan's Riflemen uniforms. And of course I am going to fill him in on Appleseed. Already set the hook, just need to reel him in. Of course he is trying reel me in as well.

Take a look

http://1stmichigan.com/

So, uh, are those guys available on April 21st to make a trip over to Fenton?  <poke> <poke?   

[Kaylee]

That is *awesome* Mac! So cool!

Regarding loose bayonets. There's a couple things going on I think  -


1. The design itself was a little sloppy - there are extant some bayonets the British had fixed with springs to keep them in place.

2. The Indian execution of the design. In the pre-interchangeable part era,  bayonets were individually fitted to a musket to ensure a good fit. The Indian factory I think solves the fitting problem by just oversizing the sockets. :\ Anyhow, yes - the socket is generally speaking too big in diameter on the examples I've seen so far. I've heard of folks either crimping the sockets out of round or gluing leather pads inside to tighten them up - I'll prolly do the latter at some point in the future.

3. The forward slot should extend a little past the bayonet lug, so that the base of the bayonet rests on the musket foreend. This is what slim is talking about I think. That way on impact, the force is absorbed by the body of the musket instead of the join between the bayonet lug and the barrel.  This is what slim was referencing I believe.


They are cool though! I'm thinking of stitching up some flags to go with mine -  especially a "Pine Tree" like you see carried in the "John Adams" film a couple years ago.

[slim]

Yep, that is what I'm talking about. In some "unscientific" tests orchestrated by my wife (when she wasn't trying to run me through) we determined the force of the blow would be absorbed by the wood and not the barrel.


Have any of you folks shot 'em yet? I still haven't drilled mine or even broken it down. Any updates on tips/tricks/etc.?

[mac66]

It is kind of funny when you tell people you are with the RWVA. They kind of go "oh yeah" like maybe they have heard about it. When they think about it they get kind of a puzzled look as they "veterans" part hits them. Then they kind of go "wait, what?".  The guy from the drum and fife corps has been doing it and reenacting for 37 years, when I told him he said, "oh yeah, wait, what?  I didn't know there was such a thing."  "There is now," I said.  I just talked to the head of my city's library about doing a Libraryseed today. She said, "oh yeah, wait, what? Are you the guys who march in the parades?"   "Well no, that's the fife and drum corps" I had to reply.

Anyway, thanks for the help Kaylee. I have not yet drilled or done anything to mine yet. Waiting to meet with the fife and drum guy first.

[oladcock]

Yep, that is what I'm talking about. In some "unscientific" tests orchestrated by my wife (when she wasn't trying to run me through) we determined the force of the blow would be absorbed by the wood and not the barrel.


Have any of you folks shot 'em yet? I still haven't drilled mine or even broken it down. Any updates on tips/tricks/etc.?

Oh yes, thought I mentioned that in an earlier post. Got about a dozen shots through mine. No tricks that haven't been mentioned previously. Running 90grs FFG and FFG in the pan works just fine.......O.L.

[slim]

I've also seen that reaction several times, mac. It's priceless!

oladcock, are you grinding your pan powder or just pouring some down the barrel then pouring some in the pan? I need to read back through this thread again (Bess has been on the back burner for a few weeks due to more pressing issues) because I think I'm going to give it a go this weekend. Huzzah!   

[oladcock]

I made up cartridges with the ball end dipped in parafin, tear the end off, pour it in, shove it down. No, not grinding the FFG, just fill the pan. Out of a dozen or so shots, just 1 fizzle and one mis-fire. The frizzen spring is strong enough the frizzen doesn't always flip out of the way and or the flint isn't long enough to flip it out of the way, I chalk up the 1 mis-fire to that. At some point I'll move the flint but I've been impressed how reliable the ignition has been using FFG for the pan and my ignorance with rock scrapers. FYI, I proofed it with 150 grs...O.L.

[slim]

I'm getting fired up!

Thanks for the info, oladcock. I'm guessing 2 out of 12 isn't so bad. I wonder what the rate of misfires was back in the day? Any plans to loosen up that frizzen spring? Maybe it'll work itself out with use. Keep shooting!

[oldfudd]

Ola & Slim -- I've been sitting on my duff instead of proofing my Bess.  When you proof it with 150 grains of 2F, do you also load double balls?

Thanks,   OF

Must make one heckka of a bang, huh?

[oladcock]

I'm getting fired up!

Thanks for the info, oladcock. I'm guessing 2 out of 12 isn't so bad. I wonder what the rate of misfires was back in the day? Any plans to loosen up that frizzen spring? Maybe it'll work itself out with use. Keep shooting!

That's what I'm thinking, it'll slack up a bit over time. I suspect it's more how far the flint sticks out to get the frizzen to cam over.

Any future cartridges I make, I won't use parafin, probably lard or tallow, parafin is too stiff and gummy making loading tough after 3 or 4 shots especially in cold weather. Will probably use .69" cal balls as well vice the .73" just so we can run more shots without cleaning. I never realized how "clean" the BP substitutes were until running this thing! LOL  In just a couple or three shots, it's nasty! What a bunch of wimps we are compared to our ancesters. I question how often or how well they cleaned them back then and how long they lasted if they didn't? It takes a good hour to clean but I might be too picky about it....O.L.

[oladcock]

Ola & Slim -- I've been sitting on my duff instead of proofing my Bess.  When you proof it with 150 grains of 2F, do you also load double balls?

Thanks,   OF

Must make one heckka of a bang, huh?

OF, I just used 1. Put it in a bench rest fixture, tied it down....Tied a string to the trigger, stepped back a good 15' and let her rip! Inventoried the parts after the smoke cleared, was good to go! ...O.L.

[oldfudd]

O.L. -- thanks.  I think I'll do the same.  Don't want to stress this old design too much over the 150 grains of powder you used.  I appreciate your input.

OF

[mac66]

I just talked my Fife and Drum corps buddy and he says to Absolutely Not use a black powder substitute like Pyrodex.  What do those of you who have experience think?