Cleaning up a repro Bess

[asminuteman]

ASM, "*touch hole/barrel plug*
you do have a ram rod?
(*curious question* do they give ya  a wood or steel ramer?)....makes a difference as to which model bess only..........don't fret....My curious george moment
even within the long land(1st model) there were variations"

Came with a steel and yes, that's what I did was measure with the ramrod. I got a piece of alluminum rod to get a more precise measurement (round end of the ramrod hard to line up) and with the flash hole drilled in the center bottom of the pan, it will be dead center at the end on the breech plug. In other words, 1/2 of the bit will hit the plug. That'll probably work, just don't like the idea of the drill bit hitting the plug but moving it forward and up, it won't be in the bottom of the pan.

Busy now cleaning and polishing all the brass parts, going to touch up the stock and tung oil the heck out of it over the next several days. Don't know what oil/finish they have on it but it's soft and gummy. I enjoy this kind of work so no biggy....O.L.

Bezon OL,

really? half the drill bit into the breech plug.....egads man!......wow youve got an issue!
yer just drilling a hole? (correct) not installing a vent liner?
<---*thinking to self*
loosing half of my igntion....is not my idea of a fun day of shooting

what size hole did they ask fer you to drill?

this is going to sound werid so hear me out.....
I would still place the start of the hole in the center/botton of the pan.....
BUT angle the hole towards the open bottom of the inside of the barrel....
(so its on top of the breech plug)

(so to speak: I wouldn't drill 90deg straight in from the botton of the pan)
(yet would drill perhaps 20 deg?........towards the charge)
and I'm thinking about the barrel now......
I still would line up correctly in the pan

that should ....*thinking*....
remove some, if not all matieral (obstruction/plug)......and give ya a complete hole
give a direct line for the heat flash to the charge


hey thinking out loud..........what do you think?
YO JMD.....ideas?

-k


I do know fer sure that moving the hole up from the bottom of the pan is not a grand idea

[oldfudd]

Oladcock -- maybe I'm just a couple of days ahead of you.  I "did" my stock today -- first hit it with some paint remover to attempt to get some of the finish off of it.  Afterwards I used coarse steel wool to remove the the paint remover & old finish.  Let it dry for a couple of hours.  Then dyed it with a good alcohol based dye to a medium walnut color.  It took this dye OK.  Let it dry in the sun for about 6 hours.  Then I hit it with a mixture of 1/2 tung oil & 1/2 mineral spirits.  Wiped the excess off after about 10 minutes.  I'm letting this 1st coat dry overnight.  Looks pretty good, and I suspect after another coat of pure tung oil it will look really good.  I'm very pleased with the results.

Re your prior comments about the flash hole.  Based on what you said, I think I'll slightly angle the drill forward (towards muzzle) so I avoid the breech plug interference problem.  The hole will still penetrate near the bottom of the barrel, though.

Dick

[asminuteman]

Bezon oldfudd,

re:angling the hole

you too?......I think thats the solution....its good to hear from someone else
sounds as if its darn close

glad to hear thier cleaning up well!    how'd yer metal polishing turn out? or are you still working just stock......I think it was you the posted you worked your lock already

[oladcock]

Good to know Dick, I was planning on the same, glad it's working out. ASM, there isn't any instructions from Liberty other than the email in the 1st post. That link in the first post calls for 1/16". Yes, I think angled is the way to go, got a feeling as soon as the bit breaks out it's going to "walk" that way anyhow! ....O.L.

[oldfudd]

ASM -- I buffed up the brass last night on a 6" buffing wheel with brown Tripoli compound, and it turned out very pretty.  The only "mod" I've made so far was to replace the galvanized butt plate screws with oval head brass screws.  The lock is done for now and works OK.  I've got to finish the stock and drill the flash hole.  After that, all I've got to do (I think) is go get a flint for the hammer, and get some round balls about .734 or so.  Then it's off to a buddies house (out in the woods) and proof the barrel. 

Does anyone here know the dimensions (and shape) of the paper to roll authentic looking paper cartridges?  I've done it for rolling Sharps nitrated paper cartridges, but never for  smooth bores.  My concept is to roll the tube, fold and seal the powder end, fill the powder, tie it off, insert the ball, and tie it off.  I'll probably wax/lube the ball end of the cartridge too.  Comments, please.

Dick

[asminuteman]

bezon oldfudd,

pg 39 of sketch book 76 has cartridge making..........."how to"

or theres a youtube vid...making out of the book:Derelict Epistle Flintlock Part 2 Making Paper Cartridges

he goes way overboard, yet its out of the book
theres also a host of others

or the dimensions of thee trapezoid are,
parallel 6" & 2"tall by 5 1/2 wide...............straight out of the book (its right in front of me)

[Old Dog]

What will you "protect" the brass with?  In my experience (daily polishing brass for my dress blues from 1976 to 1979) you can shine it up like a mirror but it will begin to tarnish that day even if you don't get it wet/rained on.

I have not polished brass (other than for reloading) since then but if I had some on a rifle and wanted it to stay nice looking I'd be finding some way to try to "preserve" the appearnce for as long as possible before having to take it out of the stock to re-polish it.

Neither of these ideas may be acceptable or work for you but if I was trying to "keep it shiny" I'd try some Never Dull first.  Its in the auto care section of some stores, comes in a small silver metal can and looks like some type of furniture padding rolled up and stuffed in the can.  It will polish chrome and aluminum and seems to preserve the shine/finish on wheels for some time.  Something like a good coat of carwax or furniture wax (the paste wax, not the spray on stuff) might also leave a protective finish on the brass for a period of time.

If you have badly tarnished brass (again, as in reloading) you can buy some stuff at WalMart called "lemi shine".  It is for use in dishwashers but you can put a table spoon of it in some warm water (warm water seems to work faster for me) in the right sized bowl and submerge the brass in it.  It will shine the brass up pretty quickly.  If badly tarnished (as in dark green to black) it will come out pink looking but that will clean up/off with a little polishing.  I've also mixed up lemi shine and water and used it on GI web gear (straps, ammo pouches, etc) to remove the verdigris build up/stains from the brass and the cloth around it.  It did not fade or discolor the green web material on my stuff.  I have not tried it on old leather slings because of the effect of soaking the leather in water.

Good luck with it.  Let us see some pictures (before and after would be great) when you get done.

[oladcock]

OD, I bet you polished your GI brass with "Brasso", that's what we used. I doubt there is anything that will protect very long if it's being handled with dirty/salty hands....O.L.

[mac66]

Just thought I would report in since I bought one of the muskets through Kaylee. 

I have dabbled with modern BP rifles but am pretty much clueless when it come to the old stuff.  Haven't had time to tear  down the musket yet or do any cleaning, drilling, polishing etc but I will over the next week or so.   

I don't intend to get into reenacting but I would like to pick up the historical accouterments needed to make this thing fire.  Can someone give me an idea (a list would be helpful) of what I would need to get?  Also where would one buy the items needed? I started looking around at reenacting websites but I assume there are preferred or inside suppliers of such things.

I already appreciate the info showing up on the thread so let's keep it going. 

[asminuteman]

Bezon mac66,        (old shawnee for hello)

*rubbin hands together*....whatca git?......bess?

I'll work typing a list of bessie stuff........where to get......how much........then your choice
OK?.......you decide......stuff for the musket only.........no re-enacting stuff.....ya game?

I need to go git the youngs from skool.....*L*...*backwoods humor*...scum that I am...

but...start with:
TOW=track of the wolf
GGG=g gedney goodwin

now don't go trader crazy......some stuff is pricey.....I'll make ya a list

be right back

wohdoh nah
-k

middlesex village
military heritage
loyalist arms
smiling fox forge
Dixie gun works
jas townshed and sons

now theres a Host of others!

you don't need a flash guard...(your not in the ranks!)....just beware of other folks @ your side
also unless you know how to knap flint "CORRECTLY"...don't bother with a knapping hammer
just ask fer help from a local flinter to align..........expect 25-30 shots per flint(on the low end)
I've had marthon flints running 125-145 shots...(agate)

Flints (LARGE) from time to time free @TOW.....large variety @TOW.....but @GGG also
Wooden flint $1.00 @GGG
Leads (to hold the flint - don't use leather for bessie)$1.25GGG
A worm - threaded to fit YOUR ramrod
A triangle bladed screwdriver (has a punch on one end for pins)$9.75GGG
A hammerstall (reccommended/modern safety device of last resort)(leather cover for frizzen)
Ball & patches TOW
powder..the sky is the limit...yet most places want a 25lbs minimum order...I go in a pool, several times a year with friends....
-you will want a whisk & pick combo....
-you might get tampion......yet not necessary
-And a good cleaning jag
I'm assuming you got a sling/bayonet & carrage with your musket


now then this is a mouth full!...and it could go on....
I need help from the cheap seats *L*.........wheres the peanut gallery
this is what I have time fer.......dinner time or the children..(not kids/kids=goats in colonial america)

bbl
-k

[mac66]

Bezon mac66,        (old shawnee for hello)

*rubbin hands together*....whatca git?......bess?

I'll work typing a list of bessie stuff........where to get......how much........then your choice
OK?.......you decide......stuff for the musket only.........no re-enacting stuff.....ya game?

I need to go git the youngs from skool.....*L*...*backwoods humor*...scum that I am...

but...start with:
TOW=track of the wolf
GGG=g gedney goodwin

now don't go trader crazy......some stuff is pricey.....I'll make ya a list

be right back

wohdoh nah
-k

middlesex village
military heritage
loyalist arms
smiling fox forge
Dixie gun works
jas townshed and sons

now theres a Host of others!

you don't need a flash guard...(your not in the ranks!)....just beware of other folks @ your side
also unless you know how to knap flint "CORRECTLY"...don't bother with a knapping hammer
just ask fer help from a local flinter to align..........expect 25-30 shots per flint(on the low end)
I've had marthon flints running 125-145 shots...(agate)

Flints (LARGE) from time to time free @TOW.....large variety @TOW.....but @GGG also
Wooden flint $1.00 @GGG
Leads (to hold the flint - don't use leather for bessie)$1.25GGG
A worm - threaded to fit YOUR ramrod
A triangle bladed screwdriver (has a punch on one end for pins)$9.75GGG
A hammerstall (reccommended/modern safety device of last resort)(leather cover for frizzen)
Ball & patches TOW
powder..the sky is the limit...yet most places want a 25lbs minimum order...I go in a pool, several times a year with friends....
-you will want a whisk & pick combo....
-you might get tampion......yet not necessary
-And a good cleaning jag
I'm assuming you got a sling/bayonet & carrage with your musket


now then this is a mouth full!...and it could go on....
I need help from the cheap seats *L*.........wheres the peanut gallery
this is what I have time fer.......dinner time or the children..(not kids/kids=goats in colonial america)

bbl
-k

Thanks for the reply. Yes I got a Brown Bess. Will be looking through all the stuff you posted. Thanks.

[oladcock]

I'm touching up the stock with Formby's Tung oil finish and it's working out very well. I haven't been able to find a #1 centerdrill in town for the flash hole as shown in the video and questioning why that's really needed? It looks like it's slightly larger than 1/16" and countersinks a little, I can do that without a centerdrill.

One place I found .735" ball wanted $65/100 while other calibers were more like $12-$16/100, a little steep for no more than I'm going to shoot this thing! Track of the Wolf gets $12.20/25 but they aren't listed on their web site. So...It's going well as far as I'm concerned. .....O.L.

[asminuteman]

One place I found .735" ball wanted $65/100(Dixie) while other calibers were more like $12-$16/100, a little steep for no more than I'm going to shoot this thing! Track of the Wolf gets $12.20/25 but they aren't listed on their web site(yes they are/you just missed them) So...It's going well as far as I'm concerned. .....O.L.

you can also mold yer own.........a lee die is 19.95.....forget the "bag mold" (49-75 $$$)
lead is free at the range....*L*
I have both a bag molds for the field, and a lee molds for @ home.....
.22 cal "splats" are everywhere!....and melt down just fine.....
you will have many folks complain about "hardness" of the lead resources out there in the world.
for a loose ball "bouncing" down a smooth barrel, you shouldn't have any issues.......with what ever type of lead you melt, and use.  (huge topic best left for another discussion)

as to cal: I know of folks using 69. cal in the .75.....naked and patched (just seat well)
so........... .690 / .715 / .735      or .750 naked........should all work
it is a (quiet for the puritans) a .76 cal bore...
TOW says their all in stock

its a Fowler for all intents and purposes (12 g) use some cornmeal/dry grass...and heavy shot......heheheh you'd never miss! *L*

-k

ps.
the only thing you need worry yourself over, is over presurring the barrel.
the India repros are "re-enactment type" firelocks.....
no heavy loads, no tight fitting ball/patch combos, and they'll function fine
theres a real reason for the difference in pricing between muzzlestuffers, and that comes down to mostly barrel. (yes other factors apply/I hate disclaimers/yet you know animals called humans)

[oladcock]

ASM, I don't know where you are finding those numbers? TOW on their web site doesn't show .735 balls at all but through email said they carried them. Maybe my browser isn't displaying their site correctly?  Lee molds for $19.95? More like $80: http://muzzleloadingandmore.com/products/accessories/molds_round_balls/index.htm#Round Balls

A mold was my first thought, just not cost effective no more than I'll shoot it. Yep, if you can get it down the barrel they'll shoot.....O.L.

[oladcock]

OK, I found them, TOW doesn't consider a musket a "muzzleloader"! ...O.L.

[asminuteman]

well I purchaced a new Lee .600 round ball mold (single) just 3 weeks ago for $19.95 from midway!
spend a few minutes on google, in just ten minutes I located in range from $16.49 to 120.!
single and doubles........ .690/.715/.735/even .750
mold only and/or  w/handles.....handles sperate were only $12-$15. bucks

it may take a few moments, but WELL worth your time....
Lotsa old stock out there....I'l check a few "old" haunts......living history places....
The list I posted is only the tip of the iceberg! I know of 500 location for firelock stuff.
I was trying to make it easier

[desertrat144]

I've been shooting BP rifles & muskets for several decades, and have done a couple of 'kit' Hawken rifles, revolvers, pistols, and a 3/4 scale Parrott Gun (3 pound); I've tried flinters, but didn't have the knack, so I stayed with percussion. 

There are several 'go to' books/catalogs that will help you out.  First, The Dixie Gunworks Catalog, you want ~1990 or earlier, in the back is a black powder fiend's guide to cleaning, DIY chemistry for solvents, cleaners, preservatives, stains, &c.

Next up is the 1860 Army Ordinance Manual, it's long out of print, but you can find some good receipts from it on on the web- links to follow.  One thing to be aware of, the manual's receipts usually use toxic substances, but there are modern substitutes.

A few thoughts for new Brown Bess or other Black Powder Firearm owner.
    Make sure the Black powder is actually black powder!  Sounds dumb, but if you are getting the powder in a container that you don't know the history of... it could contain most any powders.  Yes, Smokeless Powders are black in color, so beware.
    Never remove a breech plug in any BP Firearm!  They usually screwed in and torqued tightly, and some contain the flame or firing channels- you'll never get em aligned right again generally.
    When you get a new (to you) or unknown BP musket or rifle:
          Drop the ram rod down the barrel, place you thumb nail firmly where the bbl ends on the ram rod, and without moving your thumbnail, withdraw the rod, place everything parallel to the barrel and note where the rod's end is.  There may be anything from a live load, especially in 'heirlooms' or garbage from the manufacturing process.
          BTW, flinters and percussion arms have been known to fire even when not primed.capped or a flint in the lock. 'Nuff said.
    Gently disassemble the musket on receipt.  Never force a part, especially the lock free as the milling around it is a precision process.
    Initial cleaning can be done on all part with Kerosene.  Yeah, smells funky to some, but cuts right through grease, &c. without harming finishes.  The Kero residue acts as a lubricant until it 'cooks off'- a day or three in the shed or workshop if the other half insists.
      Dealing with metal work, &c. has been discussed already.  Just remember it's easier to re-do too little metal removal, than to replace it.  The same with wood.  When reassembling the piece, do not over tighten the lock to stock screws, you can bind up the lock to the wood, or snap the lock plate- it's usually tempered.

Proofing has been dealt with already, so for firing:
    Pyrodex is flammable, same DOT Class as smokeless powders, Black Powder is an explosive- hence the BATFE Regs for quantity stored.  Pyrodex and equal substitutes depend on compression to go BOOM!  Black powder will go BOOM! when fired loose as a blank in barrel- it doesn't need a wad or anything to do this.
   To make a paper cartridge, for live fire or blanks, soak some white gift wrap tissue paper in a super-saturated solution of Tree Stump Remover (potassium nitrate), let dry, the cut out in the shape of the State of Nevada.  Width and length will be determined by caliber, a blank or live round and charge to be used.
   Last, NEVER LOAD A BLACK POWDER FIREARM FROM A FLASK, HORN OR CONTAINER!  A spark or ember remaining from clearing or the previous shot will ruin your day!

Keep yer powder dry!

Tom

P.S. Solder Doss from radiator repair shops makes great cannon balls and non hunting or competition round shot.

[oldfudd]

Hi guys -- got a question.  Has anybody actually drilled the flash hole in your "Appleseed" Brown Bess   I've carefully measured inside the bore to locate the end of the breech plug, and have pretty much determined that I'll have to drill the flash hole at about a 15 to 20 degree angle (inclined towards the muzzle) in order to barely clear the end of the breech plug. 

Has anyone else come to this conclusion, or is mine unique?  I'm looking for some some confirmation and/or support before I drill.  Thanks.

Dick

[oladcock]

Dick, if you look at some of my first posts, mine is the same way. I was going to drill it today but got distracted. Tomorrow afternoon maybe, I'll let you know how it comes out. I'm going straight in, being on the edge of the plug, I suspect it'll "walk" on it's own....O.L.

[oldfudd]

OL -- I again looked at the link Kaylee gave us where they stated that the Indian breech plugs had a notch cut into them -- well . . . . I cleaned all the dust out of my barrel, put a strong light down it while I looked -- I'm pretty sure there is NO notch in my breech plug.

Suggest you go lightly, 'cause if the drill breaks while "walking" you've got a very difficult problem, especially if the breech plug is not removable. 

I've also very closely looked under magnification at the breech end of the barrel, and I cannot see any signs of threads or a joint where it might be joined to the barrel -- really puzzles me.  I've got a couple of good quality Civil War repros, and you can see where the breech plug enters the barrel on both of them.

Dick 

[JustJeff]

I'm touching up the stock with Formby's Tung oil finish and it's working out very well. I haven't been able to find a #1 centerdrill in town for the flash hole as shown in the video and questioning why that's really needed? It looks like it's slightly larger than 1/16" and countersinks a little, I can do that without a centerdrill.

One place I found .735" ball wanted $65/100 while other calibers were more like $12-$16/100, a little steep for no more than I'm going to shoot this thing! Track of the Wolf gets $12.20/25 but they aren't listed on their web site. So...It's going well as far as I'm concerned. .....O.L.

O.L.  most tire shops will GIVE you a 5 gal bucket or two (bring a bucket or two to swap with them for theirs) of used tire weights.  Once they've been installed they can't use them again, and recycling is a pain for them sometimes.  Just beware.... 5 gal of wheel weights is about 140lb (ask Sam). 

[oladcock]

Thanks Jeff, lead isn't a problem, time and effort is! Oh yes Dick, I know! I can't see any seams either. As easy as it marked with a punch, I don't think we're looking at steel like we see on other firearms from a hardness standpoint. It sure polished up nice! .....O.L.

[Old Dog]

   Last, NEVER LOAD A BLACK POWDER FIREARM FROM A FLASK, HORN OR CONTAINER!  A spark or ember remaining from clearing or the previous shot will ruin your day!

Hence the old practice of exhaling down into the barrel prior to loading for the next shot.  The combination of moisture and CO2 was supposed to extinguish any remaining embers.

Be careful of static electricity build up with handling/using black powder.  I've read of cases where folks wearing those nylon snowmobile suits have had their rifles go off from the static build up common in cold/dry temps when your wearing clothes that aren't conductive (man made materials).

Just cannot seem to get my comments outside that darn quote box for some reason.  So I changed the text to blue.

[oladcock]

I finally decided I had enough coats of tong oil, that process can go on forever if one wanted! Got all the brass hardware back on and used brass pins, it looks great!

Attacked the flash hole today. Started out drilling straight in, it never broke out of the plug after 1/2" depth. Backed out, run a 3/32" bit in 1/8" straight, then angled the barrel about 25 degrees with a 1/16" bit. It broke out after about 3/8" of travel. Looking inside I can see it but no way to know how rough the edges are nor anyway to smooth it up that I can think of. I'll get after the lock in the next day or two and she should be ready to go play with, as soon as my rocks and balls get here....O.L.

[oldfudd]

OL -- wow, glad you didn't break the drill bit when breaking out through the breech plug. 

I wouldn't be too concerned about the possible rough edges.  When you prime the frizzen pan, use fairly small grain powder (I've been told 4F), and tap it into the flash hole in addition to the frizzen pan.  When it touches off, I'd be willing to bet that there will be a good healthy flame that easily ignites your main powder charge.

Like you, I'm pretty much done with the stock (3 coats of Tung oil) -- I'm just letting the last coat dry completely before reinstalling the polished brass.  Then, I'll attack the lock using your angled approach.  After that it's getting some balls, and out to a buddies place to "proof" the barrel.  (I think that will require some balls too.    )

Dick

[oladcock]

LOL, yep, got on of those rifle rest bench thingies and a long string to the trigger!

Doing the lock in 2 halves, finished with the frizzen side, now working on the hammer side. Used a 3" C-clamp to compress the springs. Worked good but very much pucker factor involved if something slips. "Rough" is an understatement for some of the parts. Be careful with the screws, the threads look like they were cut with a hack saw....O.L.

[asminuteman]

bezon gents,

Heat plume, NOT flame from the pan touches off main charge.

pan charge 3f to 8f, its trail and error to find which works best in your bessies.
pit falls are:
*8f the more like baby powder wicks moisture out of the air, plus side is very min spark is needed to touch off.
*3f needs to have an average spark (not fantastic/just solid), plus side is you might be using it for your main charge already!


be careful with using a clamp for the main spring, do not scratch the spring or over clampen.
if you don't have a main spring vice, better to use a pair of vicegrips.
just do-not smash the spring(over tighten) you only need to relieve the pressure to disassemble
main spring can be weakened and/or caused to fail at the clamping point
and once the spring is out, and you disassemble the lock......carefully release the spring from what ever is employed to decompress..........main springs are "fickle*........I could use a cliche, but I don't wish to hear from the women folk!

sounds as if your doing well.........

-k

[oladcock]

Yep, the correct tools is wonderful, getting the job done with what you have, the mark of a Rifleman, improvise, adapt, and over come.

It's all together, man those bores are nasty! ....O.L.

[mac66]

And here I sit staring at my musket contemplating the universe. Trying to decide when to tackle the inevitable disassembly w/fluff and buff.  I think mine will be a wall hanger until I can acquire the proper accouterments.

[asminuteman]

NO NO mac!

paitence.....not procrastination.....
Proper hell, accouterments be damed.....

"farbie " is the word dude.......charge forward.......
ALL beginners do the "farbie" stage... I know of folks who think "farbie" is kinda cool....(even collect)

safety first, and enjoy.....once you figure it out, firelocks are great, its that first step !
"farbie" or not your welcome at my campfire,.......enjoy that musket, don't sit around and watch it rust.

-k