Author Topic: I am glad...  (Read 3758 times)

Offline RL

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I am glad...
« on: October 01, 2009, 01:52:20 AM »
...to see that we have started a section on this subject. This weekend in Reno I met Tom, he has MS and is functionally a paraplegic. He came and shot for about half of Saturday and had a great time. He is really advocating for an all disabled Appleseed, and I think it is a great idea.
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Offline Ishy

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Re: I am glad...
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2009, 10:05:53 AM »
RL,

I, too, have been thinking about an all "physically challenged" Appleseed.  I am a hip disarticulation amputee, and I learned to shoot Rifleman adapting the positions to suit my own needs.  For example, in the standing position I prop the handle of my crutch under my stump area to give me some more support.  Otherwise, standing on one leg can be a bit tipsy when I'm focusing on my sights and my muzzle would be doing crazy eights! 



When I'm in the sitting position, I try to sit "Indian Style" as much as possible, sticking something like a sand bag or shooting bag under my left knee where my right foot normally would have been.  Then I chicken wing my right arm.  In prone I just lie on my stomach as normal.

So I agree that an adaptive Appleseed would be a great idea!  I have several amputee friends who might be interested as well.

Ishy
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Offline Nevada Smith

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Re: I am glad...
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2009, 10:45:54 AM »
Here's a picture of Tom ("desertrat144") and RL from the Reno, Nevada 9/2009 Appleseed:



There are more pictures here.

Tom rightfully chose to position himself on the right end of the firing line where he was next to a hard-pack dirt road that he could use to go to the target line. However, venturing inwards toward the center of the target line for group instruction on IMC was a bit of a challenge--in this picture the scooter is almost high-centered! (And we ended up having to pull it out of that rut.)

Besides getting around on the range surface with the scooter, the other issue was the temperature--it was in the 90s! Next time, we'll have to provide shade on the firing line.

Other than that, Tom was squared away as far as his shooting gear was concerned. BTW: he was using an iron-sight, tube-fed rifle with a good supply of speed loaders.



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Offline SamD

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Re: I am glad...
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2009, 01:08:44 PM »
Fantastic that you started this thread.
Instructors are going to need this information more and more as we get a bigger cross section of America engaged.

I would encourage working on a list of techniques that we can put in our tool kit to make instruction more effective for everyone. O0     Ways to communicate, ways around impediments to conventional positions, adaptation for wheelchairs, braces, crutches and a million other things that most of us can't begin to think of. The potential variety is unimaginable for most of us.

This is something we need to do.

I'm going to contact "Mateo", one of our IIT's from El Paso and get him to roll in here. this is something he has been thinking about for a while.

Sam

Offline desertrat144

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Re: I am glad...
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2009, 01:02:39 AM »
To everyone that has posted and expressed their feelings on the disabled shooter, a heart felt Thank You!  This thread has been a year in the making.
Quote
Instructors are going to need this information more and more as we get a bigger cross section of America engaged.
This is one of the reasons this thread exists, as a past Firearms Instructor (pistol) the hidden disabilities of the students were amazing, perhaps more so was the fact they had worked around these issues and were now oblivious to them. As SamD notes, Appleseed is just at the beginnings of seeing disabled shooters.  When I get instructions on how to, or figure out how to post a statement of purpose, and tabs that can be subdivided by issues, this will become a Live Reference Guide; all I ask is that solutions and methods must have worked in real time- someone's well being or life might well depend on this.  In the works, a mod or two to the Appleseed sign up sheet asking if a participant is disabled, and what accommodations will be needed.  Currently, the Instructors listening to the disabled shooters requests is one of the best ways to help out, as the shooter has probably had to deal with this before; however don't be afraid to pose an alternate solution.  It may or may not work, but that's part of the learning curve.

In order to make this Disabled Shooter thread work, ideas and feedback are essential.  If there are disabled shooters, Instructors, or folks that have experience, or a desire  to help This is your formal invitation to wade in.

On a more personal note to RL, when I had to get assistance getting back on the scooter, I knew I beginning to slide due to heat (direct Sun & the cooling vest starting to warm up) was the beginning of the heat component of the MS.  I took advantage of 'regrouping' in the shade as much as the class structure allowed.  I'm playing around with some ideas for 'portable' shade that I can adapt to the scooter. 
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond it's limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." - President Ronald Wilson Reagan

Offline Ishy

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Re: I am glad...
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2009, 11:04:52 AM »
I think it's important to consider the wide variety of disabilities out there and how we could adapt the course to best suit that person's needs before the shoot.  I agree that it would be helpful if there was a way of indicating what disability the shooter had on the sign up sheet (when the shooter is registering for an event).  That way the Shoot Boss could be thinking ahead of time what accomodations need to be made.  Obviously, there are some disabilities that simply can't be adapted to, such as blindness, double arm amputations, above-waist paralysis, or severe mental handicaps.  But I'm sure those bright SBs out there can rig up something for people with limb loss, lower extremity paralysis, etc.   O0  For example, if someone was missing one entire arm, some device would have to be made to hold up the rifle in place of the shooter's support arm.

I forgot to mention in my previous post that my younger sister translates all the instruction, history lessons, etc. into sign language for our deaf friend.  (Thanks, Meanstreaker, for the reminder!  ;))  She uses "tap" signals when the deaf shooter is on the line.  It would be wonderful to have several Appleseed instructors prepared to sign for hearing impaired shooters.

Yes, as Desertrat mentioned, disabled shooters probably know more about their special needs than the rest of us, so it is important to listen to them, pay attention to them, and be patient with them! 

I'm excited about the Disabled Appleseed possibility.  Just one little request: could we call it an Adaptive Appleseed instead of Disabled?   ;)  Hopefully a key purpose of such an event would be to prove to "disabled" individuals what they are able to do.....with a litle help.   O0

Ishy,
Your points are well taken re: program name see my reply at Freds post. And Thank you for your help getting another person back on the line!! Regarding other impediments, there are adaptive devices to allow a previously unimagined group of folks back on the firing line (see reply to SamD above) but they are expensive.  One disability/impediment that you mention- mental disability, cannot be accomondated per Federal Laws (citations omitted).  This is an question that will re-occur, while I just gave the general answer to that issue, there are exceptions.  This is something that will be a 'work in progress'
desertrat144
« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 04:05:09 PM by desertrat144 »
"If My people, who are called by My name, will humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land."  ~2 Chronicles 7:14

"The proof of desire is pursuit."  ~Kirk DeVinney

Offline Fred

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Re: I am glad...
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2009, 12:58:41 PM »
....disabled shooters probably know more about their special needs than the rest of us, so it is important to listen to them, pay attention to them, and be patient with them! 

I think you will find the typical RWVA instructor will be very much in this mode of dealing with there issues.

Quote
Just one little request: could we call it an Adaptive Appleseed instead of Disabled?   ;)  Hopefully a key purpose of such an event would be to prove to "disabled" individuals what they are able to do.....with a litle help.   O0

Yes, ma'am, I think we can do that. It's right in the spirit of Appleseed -"Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome".

Now, can we make it official?


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Offline SamD

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Re: I am glad...
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2009, 01:35:38 PM »
Quote
For example, if someone was missing one entire arm, some device would have to be made to hold up the rifle in place of the shooter's support arm.

That is more common than you think. as a matter of fact many specialty books on stockmaking have ideas and suggestions for adapting rifles and shotguns to accommodate this and many other conditions.  I've done some work in that direction myself in cooperation with a prosthetic maker in Albuquerque.   Offset stocks for a right handed shooter who only had his left eye and a shotgun, several rifles and handguns adapted to a a semi auto a one armed shooter.
Quite a few things that can be done along those lines.
You folks are giving me more ideas already.

Sam

There are a number of adaptive devices out there that will allow even a full quadreplegic person to shoot; at the STL NRA Convention, there was a device that allowed a blind gent to shoot an air rifle at the vendor's booth (American Rifleman, _____, 2009)!  I'll try to list resources under a 'Resources Tab' or similar.  The problem with going to a medical supply house is cost.  My logic is that if folks can see what's out there, they can figure out a 'best fit' for them.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 03:48:44 PM by desertrat144 »

Offline desertrat144

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Re: I am glad...
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2009, 03:37:04 PM »
....disabled shooters probably know more about their special needs than the rest of us, so it is important to listen to them, pay attention to them, and be patient with them! 

I think you will find the typical RWVA instructor will be very much in this mode of dealing with there issues.

Quote
Just one little request: could we call it an Adaptive Appleseed instead of Disabled?   ;)  Hopefully a key purpose of such an event would be to prove to "disabled" individuals what they are able to do.....with a litle help.   O0

Yes, ma'am, I think we can do that. It's right in the spirit of Appleseed -"Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome".

Now, can we make it official?



Fred and Ishy,
Re:
Quote
"... [call it] Adaptive Appleseed instead of Disabled?
Renaming the program to something like adaptive works for me.  Judging from comments so far, I won't claim to be the 'originator' of this portion of Appleseed, things conspired to work such that it was started this way.  In my experiences so far, Appleseed being a rare exception, is that a lot of folks are disabled- the true disability is between their ears!  I won't go into examples, but everyone sees this on a daily basis; Appleseed is a refreshing breath of fresh air regarding this.  In the first attemps at defining this program, I wanted something that would grab the attention of new and existing Appleseeders, to say "...here's a resource!"  Fred, with your kind indulgence, and in Appleseed tradition, could the author of the 'adaptive' comments name this program, subject to RWVA approval?
desertrat144
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Offline SamD

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Re: I am glad...
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2009, 03:49:52 PM »
Shoot him a PM.

Sam

Offline Ishy

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Re: I am glad...
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2009, 10:45:15 PM »
I found this really neat website for adaptive shooting.  It has links to other cool sites too.  The adaptive equipment looks great!   :~

http://www.shooting4disabled.com/

Ishy

 
Great find! thank you.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 10:53:22 PM by desertrat144 »
"If My people, who are called by My name, will humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land."  ~2 Chronicles 7:14

"The proof of desire is pursuit."  ~Kirk DeVinney

Offline Garand69

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Re: I am glad...
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2009, 10:12:15 AM »
This is excellent! I suppose one of the first things to determine is how many accessable Ranges we have.

The ISRA Range in Bonfield IL. for instance is 100% accessable with parking, ramps to the firing line and accessable bathrooms.

So just as we are putting a list together of ranges with known distance, we need to cover this as well.

Thanks for the link Ishy :)




The idea of checking out ranges before an Appleseed is great.  Usually any ranges that are/were funded by any govenment money should be accessible, there are exceptions though.  Privately built ranges after 1995 should generally meet ADA Standards, too.

Additional things to consider: are there Van accessible spots?  Will the ramp from the van end in soft dirt, mud, a slope, or guy's car in the next space?  Van accessible spots are generally 3 feet wider than the standard Handicapped spot, and deploy from the passenger side of the van.  Information and specifications can be found at: http://www.ada.gov/stdspdf.htm  Note: These are large pdf files due to the dimensioed drawings.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 07:02:34 PM by desertrat144 »
Garand69

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Offline Dinky Dao

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Re: I am glad...
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2009, 12:05:40 AM »
All,

Ishy is one of my Ohio Instructors, and is one of the members here I am most proud of. I was the SB at her first shoot, and her parents were wondering about her being allowed to shoot standing, and also doing transitions. My response was, "Why can't she? As far as I'm concerned, she can until SHE determines there's a reason she can't. Let's put her out there and let's see what she can do." I assigned an instructor to stand by her incase she needed assistance, and it became pretty obvious as the day rolled on that she didn't.

And then she scored Rifleman.

Talk about impressive. I got to give her the Rifleman patch personally. I was truly honored.

This young girl also has another talent. She is quite vocally gifted. And as I recall, I do believe she is the process of writing a song about Appleseed....

Can't wait to hear it. The first official Appleseed sonata. I'm sure it will be a masterpiece.  ;)


Dinky

Offline The Machine

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Re: I am glad...
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2009, 02:22:01 AM »
I want to also thank those who put this board together and finally got things in motion.

Ishy, you are a true inspiration for everyone and I wish you continued success on your AS journey!  O0

Quote
I agree that it would be helpful if there was a way of indicating what disability the shooter had on the sign up sheet (when the shooter is registering for an event).
I too would like to see a check-box added to the registration form to indicate a disability/handicap, and such a person should be asked to detail special needs in a comment box.

I think it would be helpful to list on the EIP if a particular location can accommodate people with a disability. On the website schedule, perhaps such locations could be identified with an asterisk or something similar?



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Offline Francis Marion

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Re: I am glad...
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2009, 03:08:25 AM »
The first sentence somebody reads describing the program looms large.
They'll be interested and read further or they'll turn off and move on.

"Disabled" I think decreases interest, and we should lose that terminology.
 
"Adaptive" and "Differently Abled" both provoke interest, and conver due meaning, dignity and respect. 

Offline cannonman61

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Re: I am glad...
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2009, 10:31:43 PM »
Dinky,

If you all are serious about wanting to work an adaptive Appleseed, you already have one of the best contacts in that under your noses in Ohio.

Remember Tom Paulmier the landowner in Minerva? He is a former Paraolympic medal competitor aon medal winner. He has been coaching a rifle team for years and probably knows more tricks of the trade for adaptive shooters than anyone else I can think of.

If you can catch up with him, he may be able to help.

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Offline Dinky Dao

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Re: I am glad...
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2009, 10:49:57 PM »
Oh man, CM61...

I didn't even think of that...and here I was on his property last weekend telling the Appleseed shooters about him and how awesome his jr team has turned out to be in competitions.

Seriously...for a guy in a wheel chair, he really gets around.

I think I'll give him a call.... O0


Dinky