KW Sniper School

[wildman]

The KWSS is Saturday December the 8th 2007


Thought we might as well start a KW thread since there seems to be some interest.

If you haven't been before I'll try to fill you in. The action takes place at 300 400 and 4++ yds. Targets are set in pairs. The small one we call an "F" and his bigger brother is called "D". In the first of the three exercises each shooter in his own turn engages the pairs as they appear with no time limit. Exercise two is the same with a time limit of one minute per pair...a life time. Exercises one and two are scored as follows: the "D" target gets ya 2 points the "F" one is worth 3 points. Only two shots are allowed per target but ya get 4 points for each round you don't shoot. Neat huh?

Exercise three is three rounds max per target. We shoot the "F" targets only with each hit worth 4 points and 2 points for the rounds you save.

Wildman

[Fred]

      Talon: Scopes and bipods are OK.

      The targets are popups, however, so I would want a slower round to make sure the popup is 'triggered' and falls down.

      Zippy rounds - even the .223 - will sometimes penetrate faster than the machine can detect and react.

      These machines were originally designed to pick up hits from 7.62 NATO. 30-06 works fine, too.

      Not saying other calibers won't work, simply that sometimes, super-fast rounds will not make the popup fall, even with a 'hit'.

      And since every round counts at the RWVA US Army KW Sniper School re-creation... 

[wildman]

Talon sent me an email with some good questions and I thought some of you all might benefit from the answers.

Q: I'll arrive on Friday afternoon to set up camp; what is the likely hood of the gate being unlocked?

A: Yes camping is no problem just remind me about a week prior and we'll make it happen.

Q: How many rounds should I plan on using?

A: That's a little harder to answer we will zero at 300 and 400 yds in the AM. I have no idea how many you will require. The qualification course itself will depend on the number of shooters. I would think 100 rds + a minimum 150 sound good; bring as many as you can get together it doesn't hurt to take some home.

Q: Is there a gear list?

A: No gear list for the KWSS exists that I am aware of. I always recommend binos they come in very handy. Watch the weather forecast and dress accordingly. Don't forget something to drink and eat if you like that sort of thing. The short day will require a very quick lunch.

Q: After about 50 rounds, the 300 WM tends to hurt a bit and I go blind...is a .243 practical?

A: Fred already covered light fast rounds I don't think I can add anything except to say "Ditto."

Thanks!

[Old Dog]

If I could go I'd bring:
ear plugs or ear phones
elbow pads
a cleaning kit for your rifle (just in case)
a sighted in, clean, properly lubricated rifle (or 2 if you want a back up)
I like to lay on my own shooter's mat, so I bring my own
plenty of water to drink
snacks and lunch
my glasses (so I could see the little close up things I might need to see if I had to work on my rifle)
some sunblock
plenty of ammo of course (somewhere between 200 and 300 rnds. - better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it)
some hard candy or chewing gum (for when your throat get dry and you can't take time to go for water)
I don't use a shooter's glove or jacket but if you do you should bring them with you
I don't use a hat either but in the morning the sun may be in your eyes and you might find the brim of the hat handy for keeping the sun out of your eyes
If you use iron sights you might also want to have something to "blacken they with so they don't reflect light and affect your aim

[wildman]

Sure...We will put up paper targets at actual range and try to get the hits in the center of the target. Shooters will be given a reasonable chance to get that done
we can't use up the whole day. I would think we can spend up to an hour or perhaps 1.5 hours before we move on to the Q course. If you are shooting a 2500 or 2700 fps load and your on paper at 25 yds and know what setting put you an inch to three inches above point of aim that will help a great deal.

I hope I have answered your question. The main thing is come an enjoy yourself and learn from the experience.

[ornell]

What is the date for the KW shoot?

[wildman]

Dec 8th

[Redwolf]

The 8th is still looking good on this end. I'm starting to get things together.

[Redwolf]

If all goes well I plan to come out on the 7th to one of the local campgrounds. I will try and swing by.

[shaky-jake]

Couple of quick questions.

I currently am not set up with a bi-pod.  I have been training the way Appleseed's are taught, however I would really like to get some training shooting off a bi-pod.  At this type of events is it to my advantage to purchase a bi-pod?  If so what do I need to consider when purchasing one?  Or they any other methods used at this type of events?  Thanks for any and all advice.

[Fred]

    FWIW, I would not bring a new bipod to the KW Sniper School. You are liable to wind up frustrated as you take on TWO new things at once - a bipod, and learning to shoot the military way.

    Better stick to what you have, and you'll do fine.

    BTW, a scope would be more of asset than a bipod - but again, if you don't have a scope, I wouldn't put one on just for the school. Better to use iron sights you're used to, than a scope you're not...

    Me, if I was going to attend, I'd go with the iron sights I'm already used to...

[shaky-jake]

Thanks for the reply.  I just mounted a surplus IDF scope on my FAL using a DSA mount.  I am going to put some rounds down range this week and see how the set up works.  If I have problems I will defiantly take your advice and switch back to iron sights.  Thanks again for the info.  Any other advice that maybe helpful would be appreciated.

[Old Dog]

I have a scope on my M1A.  I've shot the pop ups at Ramseur and I can tell you one thing about scope use on pop ups - unless you can set it down to a fairly low power you'll only see one pop up in your field of view.  That means when it goes down you're "hunting" for the next target as you move your aiming point left, right (same line of targets) or up, back (as you move from 200 to 300, 300 to 400, etc.).  It's got to be easier to see those other targets when using iron sights (field of view thing) so get in some practice popping your non shooting eye open to help you more quickly find the next target.  Yeah, I know some people use a scope with both eyes open, but I don't.

And you bipod users - it can be a pretty drastic elevation change from 200 to 300 to 400 yds. so if you adjust the legs for one range you may be way outside "comfortable" when you move up or down to engage the next row of pop ups.  Pick an in between spot and adjust the legs for there and you won't be "stretching" nearly as far to get things right for the next row up.

[Redwolf]

Being new, what is the standard check in for newbie's?   

[wildman]

I chose to use an old rucksack instead of a bipod. It took some getting use to. M1A4ME is correct there is a pretty big elevation change from 300 to 500. I am able to move the ruck closer and presto I got the change.

Talon your right on about keeping it tight. It is a heart breaker to see a rifle go down due to a lose screw or worse a dirty rifle. Keeping your rifle clean and your power dry ready to go is part of being a rifleman.

"without your rifle you are worthless with out you your rifle is worthless."

This is a picture of my Serb/Croation XM48DM it is still a work in progress. The barrel is a Norwegian target barrel chambered in .308. The scope is a Leupold 3x7 33 w/LR reticle. We will have to see how it does. I am bringing an M1 chambered in .308 as a back up. Note since that picture was taken we have had to shorten the stock to free float the barrel. The change makes the barrel which is 27" look even longer. The flash suppressor is by Yankee Hill Machine.

[Redwolf]

You have some good points M1A4ME. Scope and a pod can be restrictive on acquiring multiple targets.
I'm bring my Panther 308LR with scope but I'm also bring my dirt gun which is a FAL with iron sights this thing just wants to keep,rock and rolling. 

[Old Dog]

I want to try the pop ups from a sling supported sitting position some time.

[Redwolf]

I want to try the pop ups from a sling supported sitting position some time.

The only and last time I shot pop ups was with a Navy M60 a few moons ago. 
I would think that sling supported sitting position would be good. It should give you more freedom of movement then prone and more stability the standing. In real world you would need good cover in the up right position.

[Atlas Shrug]

I want to try the pop ups from a sling supported sitting position some time.

The last time I shot at RWVA (July IIRC) that is just what I did.  I was shooting my short 7.62 Garand with the forward 1.25-4X Rapid Reticle scope.  IIRC I was able to knock down the "500" yard pop ups about 3 out of every 4 shots.  Sitting is a rock solid position once you get used to it - and often better in the field than prone if you have to shoot over tall weeds and the like.  Do try it.

[wildman]

Ok fellows let's keep the thread on track.

[Koma]

Wildman, I'll be there and you better clean that scope. I'll have to be sharp to beat you again as I think you got your stuff together- stick and eye and experience. It won't be easy, but?? 

[wildman]

You know Koma I am prone to choke. Gods way of keep me humble. Everyone that shows up is a winner. I just want to shoot a qualifing scoce hope you do too.

I have been working on it Ad just finished a complete bedding job and we shorten the stock a bit so the barrel now free floats or at least I think it does.

[Sharkman]

What time does the action start on the 8th? Can't shoot but have the time off so I might stop by anyway...

[wildman]

as early as possible by 9:00 am.

[JohnnyReb]

Thanks for the reply.  I just mounted a surplus IDF scope on my FAL using a DSA mount.  I am going to put some rounds down range this week and see how the set up works.  If I have problems I will defiantly take your advice and switch back to iron sights.  Thanks again for the info.  Any other advice that maybe helpful would be appreciated.

Shaky Jake,

I am also a FAL shooter. I'll be shooting my Imbel with Hensoldt scope. The standard barrel mounted FAL bi-pod will throw off your elevation at 300-400. You will be much better off using a field expedient rest, as close to the receiver as possible.

[shaky-jake]

Thanks for the info concerning the bi-pod.  I have an old ruck sack I was going to attempt to use.  I gather from what you are stating that I should pull it in close as I can to the receiver. 

I also am having problems with my scope picking up the front sight.  It only does this when I don't stay center on the rifle.  I know in a perfect world I should always stay centered up on my rifle.  However, when transitioning sometimes I do pickup the front sight and it blacks out half the scope.

I have a low set of rings installed now, my thought was this will allow for a better check weld.  Should I change them out to a medium height ring and attempt to place an improvised check rest on my rifle.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[Fred]

    Shaky: Quit fussin' with the equipment, and come out for the school, so that afterward, you will have a MUCH better idea of what works and what does not. What works for you, that is...

     And relax and enjoy it - it will be fun! But only if you relax and enjoy it...

[Nickle]

Fred's right. It will be an excellent time to wring it out and see what really works.

You can tinker later, if need be.

[shaky-jake]

Thanks for the encourgment.  I will work with what I have and look forward to a good time on Saturday.

[Old Dog]

If your head/eye is out of position far enough that your front sight blocks your vision through the scope I'll bet your bullet isn't going where you want it to either.  While you may not be lining up your sights with the target you have to keep your eye in the same spot behind that scope or the cross hairs really aren't where they look like they are. 

A cheekpiece helps me with the above.  If you bowhunt you know the importance of the location of always getting your hand on that same spot on your cheek or the arrow goes elsewhere.  Same here.  You've got to be consistent.  You need to realize though that the installation of a cheekpiece means you may not be able to use the iron sights in event of a scope malfunction.  Two of mine are quick/easy/simple to remove if necessary, one is in progress.