Puryear, TN Appleseed

[DragonWood]

I thought the temps were supposed to cool off just a little in September in TN! I was mistaken as we found out this past weekend, as temps were up in the 90's! Well, I guess it was cooler than the 100's that we had this summer!
I was lucky enough to get to check out the range on Friday evening when I arrived into Puryear. DonD, (otherwise known affectionatley as "dirtbag", as we will reveal later how he happened upon that status!    )  met me at the range and showed me around. First of all, much applause to Don and his fellow club members who helped out in preparing and setting up for the event. They had put together about 60 targets, numbered and ready to go!!  YEA!!!! The range was great! We had 4 bays to use with 6 1/2 ft railroad ties separating each bay. Wood chips adorned the range wich made for a soft bed to settle your matt upon.
Fred, Student, Drew (MightyMouse soon to be), DonD and myself were there to instruct. We had 35 shooters on the line Saturday. We began registration early and was finished up by 0845. We gathered everyone up at 0900 for orientation. Fred covered a little bit of history and RWVA's mission. We covered the safety rules and explained a brief outline of what they could expect that day.
Down at the line we went over range commands and fielded some more questions. Then we started off with the Red Coat. We had one shooter who got all 3 rounds in every stage and got the 250 yd qualifier! Great job Carl!
The morning was spent covering the usual of the 6 steps, NPOA, IMC, and the prone position and sling use. Groups varied from 4MOA to well, let's just say over 10 MOA. We broke for lunch in the luxury of an air conditioned club house!! Hot dogs, hamburgers, cheeseburgers we ready and waiting for our hungry bellies! After lunch Fred gave a great history talk. (strategically planned in the comfort of the AC!) Down at the line we covered the six steps again, just to get us all out of the carb meltdown from lunch! We shot the Classification AQT (which I will refer to as the green target because it is easier  )and got in a Q&DAQT before the end of the day.
Day one produced 3 riflemen with a few others knocking on the door! We ended the day with another Red Coat and saw much improvement from the morning.
Day two brought about 24 shooters back! We started the moring with another Red Coat. Once again, some improvement from the day before but still lots of room to do better. We introduced ball and dummy. Shooters got the chance to help and coach their fellow appleseeders. Bad habits were revealed and shooters and coaches worked to get rid of them. We then went into rapid fire cadence drills givine the shooters a generous 30 seconds to get 10 rounds in the one inch sqare.  We decided to have the shooters shoot a green target to get them in the AQT frame of mind the move right into the AQT. I explained to the shooters that after the AQT the instructors would go over the results and divide the line into two groups. One group was going to know distance while the other group got to work on getting their groups smaller. 
Lunch was welcomed once again with hungry bellies and the relief of a little AC! Fred looked over the targets and borke the shooters into two groups based on the results. Eleven shooters went up to known distance and the rest got to stay with me! (Student, MightMouse, and DonD helped out Fred at KD for 1/2 hour then came back to help me out). I decided ball and dummy was the perfect drill. Once again this revealed some bad habits that didn't want to stay away.  We then did some one inch squares. Next we worked on NPOA drills. We shot another green target and noticed that everyone was pretty tired and hot. We decided that we would end the day with another red coat target.
Day two produced 4 more riflemen! A total of 7 for the weekend! Kimball, the club president decided that he was going to stay knocking on that door with a 209!
We did see lots of improvement with many of the shooters by the end of today. Everyone seemed to enjoy themselves and listened to what we were trying to teach them. Many promised to work hard at home towards that rifleman score.
Great job by all the instructors! Once again a special thanks to DonD for organizing the event and having a great turnout!
To all looking for pictures.....sorry to say but not one of us brought a camera!
Oh yea, almost forgot to tell you...how a retired teached, DonD got to be known as "dirtbag", remember I said affectionately earlier!!
Don was calling the line during the green target. We were on stage two.  A whole 50 seconds, right?!
He commanded Cease Fire, Cease Fire, Cease Fire....Unload and Clear. I looked down the line and noticed everyone was still sitting, not one shooter was moving. I checked with Drew to make sure that I heard correctly, I did. It took a couple of seconds then the shooters unslung and safed the rifles. It was then that we learned that Don gave them a whole 21 seconds!   oooppps!
I guess that made up for the all times that we gave them extra time!

[Old Dog]

That's a "bunch" of rifleman scores!  Those folks in Tennesee must hold themselves to a higher standard than in most states.  I don't think I've been to an appleseed yet that had that many rifleman scores fired over the two days.

Great job.  Hope to see some pictures as the other folks chime in here.

[TwoGlock]

I would like to first of all thank the crew who came to HCGC for their excellent instruction and dedication to the Appleseed project.

I also appreciate the kind remarks and detailed description about our club.

DragonWood, the lady with the photographic memory.

But how did I get labeled with the name "Carl"?  He is young and handsome and I'm old and...................... Well,  "Old"!!!

Being older than dirt I well remember the day Pear Harbor was bombed and the day that my Dad was sent to the Pacific Theater to protect us from that threat.  I also remember anxiously awaiting each letter because we then knew that he was still OK.

I thank God that he was fortunate enough to be one of the 9 of his company that went to the Pacific that returned safely to Kentucky.

What I am saying is that "Freedom Isn't Free"; it is fought for and won.  From the moment you gain it, someone, somewhere, is formulating a plan to take it from you.  It has always been that way.  It always will be.

This is why I feel that the Appleseed project is not a marksmanship training clinic; it is a program that is "Absolutely Necessary" in order to prepare Americans to preserve our way of life.

It is "fun" to prepare with others to defend freedom because we have the "freedom" to do so.

Now DragonWood, the real "Carl" took lots of pictures at the HCGC appleseed shoot and they can be found here.

http://picasaweb.google.com/HenryCountyPictures/Appleseed

We have our own club website and forum and invite everyone to visit us.  Our Club website is;

http://www.hcgc.net

Access to the forum is PW protected because of spamming (I assume you all know the kind of stuff I mean).  When you get the popup window use hcgc for a user name and net for a password.  You can then browse the forum and register a user name and password on the forum.

Thanks to all again for all of your wonderful instruction and we are eagerly looking forward to our next "Appleseed".

[ken grant]

  Would luv to see a pic of DragonWood and "Fred" side by side labeled

               The Beauty and the Beast

[rgrosz]

Which ones the beauty      

Rob

[Fred]

   Come now, that is a very un-gallent comment, and way beneath you, I bet.

   I wouldn't want to compete with DW even in the "inner beauty" category, much less the "external beauty" category...

   By the way, the word is spreading at Appleseeds - if you see someone who looks and acts like a movie star - it ISN'T Fred - you can take that to the bank!

[checksix]

What I am saying is that "Freedom Isn't Free"; it is fought for and won.  From the moment you gain it, someone, somewhere, is formulating a plan to take it from you.  It has always been that way.  It always will be.

That is the money quote - going to save that one. (with credit where credit is due of course)

[TwoGlock]

What I am saying is that "Freedom Isn't Free"; it is fought for and won.  From the moment you gain it, someone, somewhere, is formulating a plan to take it from you.  It has always been that way.  It always will be.

That is the money quote - going to save that one. (with credit where credit is due of course)

Feel Free.

If enough people began to feel that way we will cease to be known as "The United States of Amnesia".

[student]

As one of the instructors at the Puryear AS I really can't add much to DW's report. 

I would like to mention that about half of the shooters showing came from the local club.   Not only that members (Dirt bag Don to name one) of their club actually sought us out to bring the program to their club.  The club was very enthusiastic about the program.  I think a seed has fallen in fertal soil. 

Their club president actually came out on both days shooting his M1A (a worn M1A not a safe Queen!).  But missing Rifleman by a point.  He will be a Rifleman soon.  Running a gun club!?!?  Can you believe it?

I was also gladened to see several parents with their children.  Even one mother, father, son team showed up shooting matching AR-15's.

It was good to see a diverse groop of people attending. 

I feel we will see a few Instructors out of this bunch.

I was proud to have been at the 1st AS in Ramsure in Feb of '06. 

But I am prouder to have gotten the oportunity to instruct at the 1st AS in my home stat of TN.

Makes me proud to be a "Volunteer"

Makes me proud to be a "Volunteer American teaching other volunteer Americain."

Great first real dip in the pool.

Great job by all.

Student

[Junior Birdman]

   Great report and pictures!  Appleseeds are like going to the dog pound for me, where you just wanna take them ALL home. I just want to go to ALL of them! Would like to have been there. Very nice range, and what must be a first: Range prez is a Rifleman! Good job guys! JB

[Son of Martha]

Dog pound, lol.

Sounds like a fun and educational event.  Nice to hear about the mom-dad-son team.  That's GOOD!
Good rifleman numbers and good retention for Sunday.  Sorry I missed this one--

OTOH, see ya'll in Kingsport 

SoM

[DragonWood]

Here is an interesting tidbit on the Mom/Dad/Son team. The son (a teenager) shot rifleman the first day! Dad followed on day 2! Mom is working hard and with practice and perseverance will outshoot them both!  DW

[Digiears]

Man I wanted to be there!  I lost my job a few months ago and the pesos are just too few and far between now.

I'll be there the next time, assuming I'm not in the unemployment line 

Digiears

[DragonWood]

TwoGlock....
My sincere apologies! Gene, that is! Let me give credit where credit is due, Congratulations belong to Gene, as it was HE who shot all 3 rounds in every stage and got the head shot at 250 yds!
I will give you that you are "older" but no less handsome!
I do remember your response when Fred asked you how you did it....You said that it took you coming to range 3 days a week to practice.
Once again, great job!  DW

[Scout]

  Would luv to see a pic of DragonWood and "Fred" side by side labeled

               The Beauty and the Beast

Now, are we going by looks, or by how tough they are? Because if it is the latter, you might have to reverse it

Great job DW! Thanks for your time and effort, look forward to working with you in November.

[TwoGlock]

TwoGlock....

I will give you that you are "older" but no less handsome!

Hey DragonWood, no apology needed or expected but flowers will get you everything.

  I'm the fellow who should get a plaque for the most mistakes made.  Biggest mistake was that I did not realize when I had enough heat in the sun.  You and the entire crew did a superb job and we are looking forward to your next visit.

[TwoGlock]

As one of the instructors at the Puryear AS I really can't add much to DW's report. 

You added a lot to "The Team" and what a great team it was.

[Spatulaman]

Notes from an Appleseed



  So, you've been to your first Appleseed. Humbling, right? Not quite as easy as you thought it would be? Or are you a bit more rusty than you thought? Or perhaps you really had no idea what marksmanship really entailed.

  I just returned from my first Appleseed, in Puryear, Tennessee. (It won't be my last.) And no, I didn't make Rifleman, but if there were such an award, I might have gotten the Golden Spatula. There were some thirty-odd shooters on the first day, a few less on the second, plus some folks who came just for the Sunday session. Great folks- I doubt you could find another group of people as nice as rifle shooters (shotgun shooters, on the other hand....) Allow me to offer some observations, some drawn from my own experience, some drawn from others.

  Know your rifle- how it loads, how it operates, and how to keep it running. Loading is often done from awkward positions. Have a buddy with a reloading press make some dummy cartridges for you. Leave out the primers and powder, then drill holes in the case so you can tell at a glance that it's not a live round. Practice loading from prone, sitting, and standing. Learn ahead of time how the sights operate; (clockwise for left windage, forward to add elevation, for example.) Few things are more frustrating than to fire a perfect group that's off of the target because you ran your sights down instead of up.

  Practice from position and make sure that you can use your equipment in all positions. For example, the scope which is perfect from the standing position may not give you enough eye relief in sitting or prone when you're further up on the comb of the stock.

  Speaking of scopes, understand that a telescope does NOT help you shoot better- it helps you SEE better. As a shooting aid, scopes are a mixed bag. Most people who were using scopes had huge variable-power models. I didn't do a survey, but I'd have made a bet that many of those were cranked all the way up to 7 or 9 or 12 power. The problem here is that the scope accentuates all of your errors. Every tremor, every wobble, every breath looks like a seismic shift when seen through that high magnification. The tendency is to try to force the gun to fire as the reticle dances across the target, which is not exactly conducive to good accuracy.

Another overlooked factor is the trigger. A rifle with a poor trigger can be used accurately, but it becomes a real chore to do so. I saw many rifles on the line which have reputations for poor triggers- whether those deficiencies had been corrected I cannot say. A gritty, spongy, or creepy trigger will always be difficult to shoot well, because you'll never be able to achieve the ideal "surprise break." We don't notice our horrible triggers when we shoot from the bench, but in position shooting it becomes a major factor.



Remember that the first item on the "things to bring" checklist is a teachable attitude. If you already know it all, why aren't you teaching? If your equipment, form, position and execution are all perfect, why don't you have the Rifleman patch? Be open-minded about changing things that aren't working, and concentrate on the execution of those things that are.

Finally, a word about "gaming."  I understand economizing. I understand the value of a trainer, especially a sub-caliber. I understand that .22LR is cheaper than 7.62x51. But seriously folks- if you're shooting an Appleseed with a rimfire because you think it'll be an easy path to Rifleman status, you're playing games, cheating yourself and cheapening the whole experience.  And you're missing the whole point of learning to be a Rifleman, which is preparing for the possibility of taking up arms to defend Liberty. If, Heaven forfend, that day ever comes, you'll need a fighting rifle, not a rule-beater.

  So there you have it. A word of warning though- this is addictive. I'm already thinking of when I can get to another Appleseed. And once I get that coveted badge (through persistence), I'll have to try it with a bolt gun- or maybe even my 94 Winchester!

[Muddogg]

I have to respectfully disagree with you on the rimfire issue, Spatulaman.

If you learn how to shoot with a rimfire, like so many young hunters, there is nothing wrong with that. Using a .22 will help develop your skills as a shooter. I understand your position, but using a .22 at an Appleseed is like using training wheels on a bicycle. You eventually remove the crutches after a while and move on to bigger bores, where you then work on flinching if that becomes an issue.

Its all about baby steps, you crawl before you walk, and walk before you run. Just don't keep crawling even if it gets you where you need to be, always strive to become better.

[Spatulaman]

I fear that we shall have to agree to disagree.

As Fred put it Sunday afternoon (and I'm paraphrasing here) " Folks, this is not about target shooting. This is about preparing to take up arms in defense of liberty and your country...."

To my ear, that means a fighting rifle is the required equipment. Re-read my initial post. I made no disparaging comments towards those who are learning and still in the "training wheels" stage, to use your analogy.
  My gripe is with those who may be using RF cartridges, not for the sake of economy or to develop fundamentals, but in order to avoid the issues of recoil, blast and report in pursuit of a higher score. That kind of thinking and behaviour is what turned IPSC into a gamer's equipment race, rather than a serious tactical training program. I would not wish to see so worthy a project as Appleseed to fall to the same low fate....

[Old Dog]

Speaking as someone who attended an Appleseed and an RBC with trusty old M1A and is falling more in love with the M1s the more I handle them, carry them and shoot them I like shooting the Ruger 10/22 with Tech Sights.

Maybe I'm all alone on this one but when I'm into it I do not really know the big boys are recoiling.  I can shoot upwards of 200 rnds. in a day and never have a mark on my shoulder.  When I get down in a good sling supported prone position I've lost track of whether I'm firing my 10/22 or my M1 Garand. 

You can learn the 6 steps, learn to how to find your NPOA and even shoot rifleman with a .22.  All of that experience translates directly to your centerfire rifle.  Then the only difference is recoil (and maybe a little bit of mechanice for the saftey, the mag changes, and  

I still maintain (for me anyway) that when I'm concentrating on that front sight and where it is on the target I really don't feel the recoil.

Folks need to learn.  Folks need to insure they have sufficient ammo saved back for their centerfire rifles.  If a .22 isn't the best way to do both I don't know what is.

We ain't here to disagree over which caliber works best for learning to shoot a rifle.  We're here to figure out how to wake up the people than can be reached and teach them to shoot their rifles so that when they need to use them they'll be ready.

If the centerfire rifle is best for you that's great.  I like mine, too.

[Spatulaman]

 As paul Simon said in "50 ways to leave your lover"

"Furthermore I hope my meaning won't be lost or misconstrued, but I'll repeat myself, at the risk of being rude...."

  If you're learning, fine. If you can't afford CF ammo, fine. If you have a physical disability that prevents you from using a CF, fine. If you don't own a CF rifle, fine. If you find at the last minute that you can go, and don't have time to load or buy CF ammo, fine. If TSHTF, and all you can grab is a RF, fine. BUT if you are using a RF because you are simply in pursuit of a higher score, if the prime desiderata of the event is to post the highest score and you think the path to that end is by using a RF, then you've lost sight of the objective, which is serious training for a deadly serious possibility.

But enough of this- I'd rather have a RF shooter who "knows what he is about" at my side than a doofus with a high-speed, whiz-bang, low-drag CF and piles of ammo, who can't shoot.

[Old Dog]

The high score at 25 yds. ain't worth much if you can't "translate" it into a high score at full distance.  Many Appleseeds (if conducted where full distance shooting is possible) have long range shooting during the afternoon on Sunday.  The whole idea of 25 yards is:
learn the basics
the score at 25 yds. demonstrates the basics have been learned and are being applied
you can do this at just about any range or in any farm field (or back yard)

If you go to an RBC you'll also get to shoot an AQT at full distance (pretty tough with a .22 - but what your learned at 25 meters with your .22 WILL prove true at longer ranges - BTDT).

At this point I really don't think we've gotten to we've gotten to the "gaming" point.  Folks are still way too serious about this (hope it stays that way).

Have good one.  Maybe I can make it down there next year for an Appleseed.

[Spatulaman]

Interesting that the RF comments have generated some feedback, while my other comments have gone unremarked....

[Muddogg]

Interesting that the RF comments have generated some feedback, while my other comments have gone unremarked....

I think that's because everyone agrees with you on the other comments. 

BTW, I don't think anyone else has said it yet, Welcome Aboard!

Let's work together to get our fellow Americans off the couch and to the range!

[1911Ron]

spatulaman i agree if you can use iron sites do so, if not put a scope on it. Yes it is important to know your rifle, but for some it just not possible(new rifle) however if you come with a teachable attitude you will learn, may not achieve rifleman score but you will see improvement.

The trend toward .22 is economic as referenced in other AARs, i shoot .22 but i own a M1a,several bolt guns(mil-surplus) but end up shooting .22, i have seen gaming when i shot cowboy action years ago, this is night and day difference betwen the two,also you are only competing aginst yourself not others. P.S i shoot my centerfires as often as possible however the grin factor is .22

[Nickle]

Now, I'm one that thinks you need to shoot BOTH a .22 and a Centerfire.

I've got quite a varied past as a shooter. I've shot Bench Rest (competition), Smallbore, Battle Rifles and I have to qualify with an M16A2 every year.

I'm no "expert" in any of these area, but competent in them, and that's enough.

Spatulaman is 100% right about what he's saying. There's many valid reasons for shooting a .22 RF. But, "gaming your scores" flat out isn't one of those valid reasons. Practicing to improve your Centerfire shooting is valid. Saving money, so you can shoot more is valid. Using a .22 for initial learning is valid. Start using a .22 to "game your scores", and when you do a Full Distance AQT, you WILL get surprised, if you don't practice with that Centerfire.

I will also say that the HARDEST competition I've done is probably Smallbore. Shooting thos TINY targets at 50 feet, with a tricked out bolt gun is harder than you think it is.

Now, a few words about scopes. Yes, some of those rifles have fairly powerful optics on them. 2 of my 10/22 loaners are scoped. 1 with a 4X Simmons, the other with a V8 (2.5-8) Weaver. I always suggest keeping that V8 turned down to 2.5X, and they usually listen.

[Fred]

    The nice thing here is that no one is really arguing.

     Spatula(, it's unlikely anyone will be 'gaming' Appleseed because, as M1A4ME says, it's not a competition, except maybe with yourself to try and shoot a rifleman score. Even more, we only let you come to two Appleseeds before we ask you to get out of the deck chair and help us run and expand the program.

     As Muddog says, RF was singled out because we are working hard to get people used to the notion of learning marksmanship with a .22 - because we want to keep the costs down so that a maximum number of people can attend.

     Therefore, any hint of disparagement of .22 RF will generate responses - and I know you did not mean or want to imply disparagement, that your intent was to point out that none of us wants Appleseed to go the way other shooting programs have gone - but, as said above, there's little danger of that, so the well-intentioned comments about .22 were not really necessary...

     So all is well that ends well, is my motto.

     PS: I thought your post made for very worthwhile and enjoyable reading. Maybe you'd like to write more about your personal experience of that weekend, as I'm not the only one who would be interested. How about it?

[KY Gungeek]

Spat:

Understand your thoughts on gaming.  Having shot IPSC and IDPA, been there first hand!  I am struggling with my choice of smoke pole for the Lexington shoot.  My step kids are shooting properly configured 10/22s, I have a dedicated 22lr upper for my AR (this is my HP practice gun), I also have an M1 Carbine, a Garand, and Mauser 8mm.

Seems that the Mauser would be the Ironman gun (thing slaps me silly) and the Carbine might be the gamer - 30 cal holes, light recoil. 

We will have both 25m and 300yds at Lexington.  I think I am going to shoot the 22 version of the AR at 25m, then switch to the regular 223 upper.  I can focus on the fundamentals at 25m and save some $$, then launch pills at 300. 

I jumped in here because I've thought lots about the issue.  Perhaps my thought process will help others.  Maybe I'm a little different because I shoot 223 lots of other times (HP & IPSC), this works out.  If I never shot full caliber, it might be "proper" to shoot 223 at appleseed.  But, to get trigger time and not go broke...

Also, hope you can make it up here next weekend.  Shouldn't be as hot! 

[Grin Reaper]

And once I get that coveted badge (through persistence), I'll have to try it with a bolt gun- or maybe even my 94 Winchester!

I haven't tried it with a lever-action, yet; but it can be done with an Enfield!

If you learn how to shoot with a rimfire, like so many young hunters, there is nothing wrong with that. Using a .22 will help develop your skills as a shooter. I understand your position, but using a .22 at an Appleseed is like using training wheels on a bicycle. You eventually remove the crutches after a while and move on to bigger bores, where you then work on flinching if that becomes an issue.

Its all about baby steps, you crawl before you walk, and walk before you run. Just don't keep crawling even if it gets you where you need to be, always strive to become better.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Folks need to learn.  Folks need to insure they have sufficient ammo saved back for their centerfire rifles.  If a .22 isn't the best way to do both I don't know what is.

Unless I'd said that, that is.

BUT if you are using a RF because you are simply in pursuit of a higher score

Then that IS a problem, you're right.  I have found (and maybe it's just me) that it's harder to shoot scaled-down 25m targets with a .22 well than to hit full-sized  targets with a .308.  The .22 will teach you follow-through, since it takes a little longer to clear the barrel than a .308 does.

Quote from: Spatulaman on Today at 05:52:18 PM
Interesting that the RF comments have generated some feedback, while my other comments have gone unremarked....


I think that's because everyone agrees with you on the other comments.

Yep.

So all is well that ends well, is my motto.

I thought it was "Why are you still dragging wood?!"
That's what I heard him say the most....