Puryear, TN Appleseed

[Spatulaman]

 

     PS: I thought your post made for very worthwhile and enjoyable reading. Maybe you'd like to write more about your personal experience of that weekend, as I'm not the only one who would be interested. How about it?

   I'd be pleased to write a longer piece in the very near future. Look for it in the next couple of days.

[Spatulaman]

I will also say that the HARDEST competition I've done is probably Smallbore. Shooting thos TINY targets at 50 feet, with a tricked out bolt gun is harder than you think it is.

Nickle, try International Air sometime. The 10 ring is 1mm in size and must be completely obliterated to count as a 10. Men's division is 60 shots in 2 hours, all from standing at 10 meters. Even with pants, coat, boots and the rest of the equipment, still very demanding.

[Nickle]

Agreed on the Air Rifle. I haven't done it myself, but I know that it makes Smallbore look EASY.

[student]

Nickel or Spatula

Either of you worked out the MOA equivilant to the air rifle bulls at 10 m or the small bore bull at 50 feet?

Student

[Buckshot]

Nickel or Spatula

Either of you worked out the MOA equivalent to the air rifle bulls at 10 m or the small bore bull at 50 feet?

Student

Student,

Don't know about the air rifle, have not messed with it.

As far as the 50' American target, the range rule is pretty much 4 clicks per ring on the bullseye when you are making sight corrections.

Working it out mathematically, it comes out to 0.015" per MOA.

Buckshot

[Carl]

I have a few thoughts that I would like to share.  Maybe you will want to disregard them because Fred called me a slacker, and it is probably true.  Of course you may want to know why Fred thinks I am a slacker before you disregard my opinions.

It seems that some are surprised that there were seven new rifleman scores from Puryear.  We like to shoot in Tennessee!  So why would one be surprised that we do it well?

A few months ago a couple of the local club members asked if anyone would like to speed a weekend learning a little about rifles and a little about history.  Remember paragraph two--we like shooting.  We even had a couple history buffs and that number seemed to have risen by several since Fred's talk after lunch.  The Puryear Appleseed was on the schedule.

We asked what is an Appleseed, what equipment we would need, and who would benefit from it.  Over time we got an idea about the program.  We discussed mats and carpet, different sights, number of rounds needed, and rifle type.  We wanted to know "who is Fred".  We talked about elbow pads, sunscreen, and what we should expect to learn.  And we asked our two former Appleseeders about rifles and ammo again. 

Our former Appleseeders figured out fairly quickly that cheap and tame 22 ammo and any sighted rifle was a good answer to get more people to try an Appleseed.  And isn't more people the goal?  The young people (and we had several) could handle the rim fire and I guess you could call the rest of us cheap.  No one ever asked what rifle was "needed to make rifleman".  We like to shoot and we would like to do it better.

I had 10/22 training rifle long before I heard about Project Appleseed.  I got it so I could practice more by reducing the cost.  I had the opinion that what works with a rim fire rifle would work with a center fire rifle.  It is similar to Fred's theory that what works at 25 meters will work at full distance.  I haven't found either to be in error.

I met DragonWood Friday evening as I was testing my center fire backup rifle.  This may have aided in her giving my name instead of Gene as the first perfect Redcoat score on Saturday.  The center fire with iron sights produced a decent target.  I even tried it for the first Redcoat Sunday.  I scored exactly the same on all my Redcoat targets regardless of the rifle during the weekend.  I missed exactly one shot on a 200/300 and the head every time--don't tell Fred.

Fred decided that I was a slacker as he walked by and I had a bunch of decent groups with a flyer.  He pointed to the flyer and asked what happened.  He then said I was a slacker "because it was obvious that I could do better".  He later declared an entire group of us slackers after seeing the targets from 200 yards.  We were getting a bit sloppy partly due to a weekend in the heat.  The fifteen year of from the family of shooters was even off with a score of 49 from standing at 100 after his perfect 50 from sitting at 200.  So I am just one among a group of slackers--seven of us with new rifleman patches.

[Nickle]

Nickel or Spatula

Either of you worked out the MOA equivilant to the air rifle bulls at 10 m or the small bore bull at 50 feet?

Student

You know, I never measured one, and I quit shooting Smallbore years ago. I think I'm going to have to scrounge a target from somewhere and measure it.

[student]

It is good to be from TN where people like to shoot.

Unfortunatly from the # of Appleseeds we have schedualed it seems few of US are interested in learning to shoot well.

It seems that few of US care about learning to shoot with a purpose.

Perhaps WE are on the path to change that.

It was great to meet fellow Volunteers.  Help us spread this around.

We need, once again, to see an America that has "Men who know what they are about".

Thanks for being part of that.

Student

[TwoGlock]

    The nice thing here is that no one is really arguing.

     Spatula(, it's unlikely anyone will be 'gaming' Appleseed because, as M1A4ME says, it's not a competition, except maybe with yourself to try and shoot a rifleman score. Even more, we only let you come to two Appleseeds before we ask you to get out of the deck chair and help us run and expand the program.

     As Muddog says, RF was singled out because we are working hard to get people used to the notion of learning marksmanship with a .22 - because we want to keep the costs down so that a maximum number of people can attend.

     Therefore, any hint of disparagement of .22 RF will generate responses - and I know you did not mean or want to imply disparagement, that your intent was to point out that none of us wants Appleseed to go the way other shooting programs have gone - but, as said above, there's little danger of that, so the well-intentioned comments about .22 were not really necessary...

     So all is well that ends well, is my motto.

     PS: I thought your post made for very worthwhile and enjoyable reading. Maybe you'd like to write more about your personal experience of that weekend, as I'm not the only one who would be interested. How about it?

I don't see any argument.  Different points of view, certainly.

Same reason as we have Ford's, Chevy and.......... Well you get the point.

I also own some larger caliber hunting riles, 260 Remington, 270 Winchester, 308 Winchester, and 30/06, the 260 Remington being my favorite hunting caliber BTW.

So why is 80% of the rounds that I fire done with the 22LR?

For me it economy of time, money and energy.  (Remember, I'm 73 and all are in short supply)

Economy of Money.  The math is surely simple now with the cost of ammo.

Economy of time.  I don't have to spend time picking up brass, cleaning cases, cleaning primer pockets, trimming cases, reloading the stuff, and cleaning a 22 RF requires much less time and energy at the end of the day.

My major problem is not my lack of ability to absorb recoil and recover sight alignment and sight picture.  My major problem is being able to hold in the target area during standing and to get into position for sitting and prone.  Most everyone is already sending rounds downrange by the time I can get into position.  I usually rush the first shot because I am thinking "I've got to get to the shooting because I'm running out of time".  Consequently steps 1 - 6 do not get the time devoted to them they need, especially in sitting.

Yes, I can score better most of the time with 22LR, but as 22 LR scores improve so do my CF scores.

[funfaler]

With my first real range time with the 22 trainer only a couple of weekends ago, I can honestly say that 22 AQT shooting is as humbling or more so with the 22s.  Taking the time and money to do some M1A shooting last weekend and seeing ragged hole groups at 25 m was rewarding in that the 22 brought my skills to that level.  I have not shot an AQT with centerfire since, but suspect that the scores would be averaging higher than the 22. 

No doubt that a Rifleman NEEDS actual distance experience, but the 22 at 25 meters will give a Rifleman the fundamental skills needed to get the most of every CF round at actual distance.  Once shooting at actual distance, the Rifleman will learn some extra information for such shooting (come-ups, wind doping, etc.) as well as a greater appreciation of the 22s at 25m.

My feeling is that given the choice, for a score reason, I would chose the centerfire everytime.

How long is the 22 bullet in the barrel of a 10/22 after hammer fall, and how long for a 308 or 223?  Since the 308 and 223 are moving nearly twice as fast at the muzzle, I would think that the 22 is in the barrel nearly twice as long.  Plenty of time to "show case" the shooter's misapplication of the 6 steps to firing a shot.  Humbling indeed.

[Spatulaman]

Notes from an Appleseed, Part 2- by request.


I have been asked to expound a bit on my Appleseed experience. Following herewith are a few more comments and observations.
  My friend and I arrived Friday afternoon. After setting up our camp at the nearby Paris Landing State Park, we set out to find the Henry County Gun Club, site of the impending Appleseed. (Time spent in reconnaissance is never wasted.)
  Saturday dawned partly cloudy and still.  We arrived and were greeted at the gate and instructed to proceed to the check-in, where we would sign the ubiquitous waiver and other paperwork. (Note: We were NOT informed of the ban on sidearms- we removed ours once we arrived, but it was a personal decision, rather than following a directive.)
   Following the introductory comments, we proceeded to the firing line, where the initial course of fire was discussed. Redcoats first, and the dressing down to follow- no one took Fred up on his offer to trade their 20th century rifle in for a 1750's model.
   Classification AQTs came next, followed by the 1" squares. No surprises, just improvement and refinements. I did note some horizontal stringing, most likely due to the woodchip ground cover on the firing line. Recoil would cause my right elbow to drift to starboard, resulting in canting. Once the problem was identified, it could be corrected, although it did necessitate a reacquisition of NPOA after every couple of shots.
   Another phenomenon which I noticed was an occasional split group, with 4-5 shots in a ragged hole, with the other 5-6 forming another distinctly separate grouping, usually 3/8" or so lower than the first group. My best guess is changing lighting conditions from the partly sunny conditions, requiring a wider strip of white at the top of my front sight in the 6 o'clock hold. I'm running some tests on aperature size, larger for more light or smaller for more visual acuity. An adjustable iris may be the answer, although I don't yet know how such would hold up under strenuous field use.
  I used the 1907 sling for both days. While I believe that the web sling has merit, I'm not altogether sure that it is faster to acquire than the leather '07, based upon watching other folks get theirs adjusted. I used the '07 because it's what I'm used to, not because I discount the web sling. (And you never change your equipment on the day of a shoot!) I've used both a CW and a Ching sling on sporter/scout rifles, and those are both much faster to acquire than either the web or the '07, about 2 seconds to loop up. Both provide the speed of a hasty sling with the positive forward loading of the 1907 or the web sling. If your rifle can use either of those sling types, you may want to try one or both and see if either works for you.

  Sunday was more of the same, with those of us on the Rifleman cusp going to the 200 yd. range. Here there was some kvetching about some intervening vegetation, and partially obscured targets, but it was light-hearted. (As an aside, it would be a worthwhile exercise to do some testing with your targets behind some screening vegetation to note how much, if any, deflection you'll experience when shooting through such things as grasses, twigs and saplings.) Here we found out that we were slackers- those targets are huge in comparison to the 25 meter AQT. I suppose we all eased up a bit, an act which was readily apparent from our targets.
   Finally it was time for some clean-up, pack-up and some final networking and goodbyes, and the end of a thoroughly enjoyable weekend. Although tired, hot and quite aromatic, it was an excellent training opportunity and source for much reflection. And just think, some people spent the weekend in front of the boob tube- or playing golf. Egads! Those are the folks we need to reach.

Some comments on the administration of the line.
  A bullhorn for the line officer would be a welcome addition. Following Fred's advice, I had both plugs and muffs. Given nearly 20 years of power tool use, my hearing is not what it used to be, and range commands were often difficult to hear and/or understand. I imagine quite a few of us more seasoned shooters have a similar problem.
  I like the fact that Appleseed is a "No alibi" event, but I found this out in practice and subsequently got verification from the website. A comment before going live might be in order.
I understand the importance of drawing the "recoil-side" leg up, but having an instructor kick your foot while you are in the middle of a string is a sure-fire way to throw one out of the group. Thanks, Fred.
Finally,  I would be remiss in not thanking the members of the Henry County Gun Club who made the event possible. Everyone with whom I spoke who was affiliated with HCGC was gracious and obviously interested and enthusiastic about the program. Likewise, thanks go out to the folks from Hoofbeats of Hope ( I don't believe that's exactly right- someone help me out here) who took on the task of feeding the hungry hordes of shooters. Napoleon may have been on to something when he said an army marches on its stomach....

[Fred]

Carl:

Fred decided that I was a slacker as he walked by and I had a bunch of decent groups with a flyer.  He pointed to the flyer and asked what happened.  He then said I was a slacker "because it was obvious that I could do better".  He later declared an entire group of us slackers after seeing the targets from 200 yards.  We were getting a bit sloppy partly due to a weekend in the heat.  The fifteen year of from the family of shooters was even off with a score of 49 from standing at 100 after his perfect 50 from sitting at 200.  So I am just one among a group of slackers--seven of us with new rifleman patches.

    Carl, no hard feelings this end ( - it's part of RWVA Appleseed policy to offer encouragement. You must have been shooting pretty good to get that 'slacker' comment. And I'm sure you were told and understood - that when you shoot good, the instructor gets the credit... And when you shoot bad, YOU get the credit. (So that shot out of the group - well, that would be yours, right? )

     You guys did an excellent job on the long-range portion of the Appleseed.

     PS: Being called a 'slacker' by Fred is not necessarily bad...

Posted by: Spatulaman

I like the fact that Appleseed is a "No alibi" event, but I found this out in practice and subsequently got verification from the website. A comment before going live might be in order.

I agree. Maybe it got left out - it's sometimes hard to get all the stuff in that needs to be in - and usually, even then, there's one or two - or more! - who don't hear it.

I understand the importance of drawing the "recoil-side" leg up, but having an instructor kick your foot while you are in the middle of a string is a sure-fire way to throw one out of the group. Thanks, Fred.

No thanks needed - just doing my job. Since you are learning marksmanship while firing your string, it rams the message home better than anything else to do the 'foot' thing. After a couple, sometimes more, of doing it, you find the shooter starts doing it himself - one of the quicker things that's usually picked up...

Finally,  I would be remiss in not thanking the members of the Henry County Gun Club who made the event possible. Everyone with whom I spoke who was affiliated with HCGC was gracious and obviously interested and enthusiastic about the program. Likewise, thanks go out to the folks from Hoofbeats of Hope ( I don't believe that's exactly right- someone help me out here) who took on the task of feeding the hungry hordes of shooters. Napoleon may have been on to something when he said an army marches on its stomach....

Big dittoes here, both on the club and it's support for the Appleseed shoot, and the ladies who took care of our stomachs... Thanks to all of them.

And a PS for both of you: thanks for the excellent posts!

[Spatulaman]

BTW, have we decided on a proceedure for getting a T-shirt in a size resembling what one would normally wear? (Sorry, but a 3x, while it might be comfortable, just isn't my style.) As you may recall, there was a shortage of Lg shirts. No hurry, just curious.

[Fred]

    Spat, don't know how you wound up with a 3X. If you want to get a Large instead, return the 3X with a note to RWVA, POB 629, Ramseur, NC 27316 and we'll send out a Large.

    Thanks in advance.

[Carl]

Fred,

I did know that the Slacker comments were not intended in a mean way.  My thought when I see a pulled shot or just run out of time during a string are somewhat similar.  And, yes I know about the mirror.  One of the instructors chuckle as he took credit for all but one group of shots at the squares.  I bet you can guess what "my" group looked like<g>.

Thanks for coming to Tennessee!

[Spatulaman]

Nickel or Spatula

Either of you worked out the MOA equivilant to the air rifle bulls at 10 m or the small bore bull at 50 feet?

Student

Correction on 10-ring size. The 10 ring on the AR10 target is 1/2mm, which works out to 5mm, or app. .20 caliber, at 100 meters. Pretty d&%$ed small! Imagine putting 10 shots, from standing, at 100 m,  into the mouth of a 22lr case....

[Grin Reaper]

Imagine putting 10 shots, from standing, at 100 m,  into the mouth of a 22lr case....

Ow! It makes my brain hurt to think of that!

[Nickle]

I can do it, 5 shoots, from the bench, with a competition Bench Rest gun, and consistently. Short of that, no way.

[Spatulaman]

My oldest son shoots smallbore and precision air at the collegiate level and went to the NCAA finals last year in Fairbanks, AK. Over the years we've seen some pretty impressive scores on the AR10- 389/400 Women's division, 596/600 Men's division. Pretty impressive shooting.