BACKUP SURPLUS BOLT ACTION

[biathlon]

Speaking of Marines, don't forget the German armys first encounter with 03 equipped Devil Dogs at Bellau Wood! They made the serious mistake of using the same tactics of movement they were used to getting away with when they were fighting the French or British that waited till they were within 200 yards before firing. The Marines began dropping their officers at well over 800 yards to the dismay and disbelief of the enlisted men.   Properly maintained and tuned '03s are among the most accurate military rifles of all time.

[katooutdoors]

So far here is what we have, it seems that the Ishapore Enfield 2A in 308 might be the best deal for the money out there.
The reason, when the Brits started switching over to 308 they had found during their testing that the standard receiver proved to be too soft allowing stretching and bolt locking. The receiver then was up graded to Chrome Vanadium and hardened to a higher degree than the previous rifles were, a special barrel was designed to provide the best accuracy for a bolt action of this caliber.

On the plus side:
Chambered for 308
Cost around $180.00 to around $240.00
High quality barrel, someone who is knowledgable on rifles told me that the barrel is chrome lined
Uses 308 stripper clips
Sights are very good
Fastest bolt action around
Were used for rifle drills more and less for shooting

On the negitive side:
Chamber is a little on the sloppy side, they had made it this way so it would still work under dirty and dusty conditions. There is one person familiar with these rifles that suggested to keep a pile of brass separate for this rifle and to just neck size the cases to get the most out of them.
The only part that is said to break and not too often from other owners is the extractor spring, you would need to keep a spare or 2 and maybe even a firing pin and a spring.
The rifle comes finished with a crappy black stove paint, if you are someone who likes to refinish rifles, when you remove the paint, there might be a blue finish, a parkerized finish or no finish underneath. Now you can leave it as is or you can have a new winter project.
There will probably be a repair or two done to the stock from the arsenal like a plug somewhere, they got a little banged up from the rifle drills, but then again the prices are about $180.00 and up.
If your thinking about buying one do a little research and make sure you don't get one made from a bunch of mismatched parts laying around.
It would be a good idea to get the headspace checked

When it's all said and done, these rifles may just be one of the best deals around for a surplus rifle, so if you think you might want one I wouldn't wait too long since it seems that a lot of surplus stuff is drying up.

[n00b]

so where can we get and Enfield 2A in 308 for ~$200?

[hawkeye]

I believe the 1903a3 is the best deal in surplus bolt rifles. You can pick one up for as little as $500.00 at gun shows , I've bought two at this price. The ammo is the cheapest around for CMP, .308 is about twice the price. Parts are easy to get from many sources, USGI barrels are readily available and easy to screw on and head space. Smooth bolt action ,peep sights, easy to scope if needed. There are deals to be found with the 1917 too, bought mine at a small gun shop for a little under $600.00. The cheaper the ammo the more you'll shoot. Practice with your back up rifle as much as your MBR. Man has this thread wandered.  

[Buckshot]

So far here is what we have, it seems that the Ishapore Enfield 2A in 308 might be the best deal for the money out there.
The reason, when the Brits started switching over to 308 they had found during their testing that the standard receiver proved to be too soft allowing stretching and bolt locking. The receiver then was up graded to Chrome Vanadium and hardened to a higher degree than the previous rifles were, a special barrel was designed to provide the best accuracy for a bolt action of this caliber.

katooutdoors,

The Brits had very little to do with this.  They were using the No. 4 series rifles, mostly the No. 4 Mk. II, No. 4 Mk. 1/2 and No. 4 Mk. 1/3 by the time of the switchover to 7.62 X 51 NATO.

These rifles were strictly an Indian/Ishapore deal.  I see little difference in the barrel from a WW II Lithgow "heavy barrel" other than the different bore and groove diameter.

The sights are not all that good, being post front and open notch rear, but they will work better than Mauser sights.  The rifle would be much better if it had a peep sight like the No. I Mk VI or the No. 4 series rifles.

These rifles were, for the most part, POLICE rifles, not MILITARY rifles.  Lots of them showed up on TV during the Bombay bombing.

Buckshot

[Nickle]

Buckshot is right.

I'm not a big fan of SMLE rifles.

Another good choice would be a 98 Mauser in .308 or .30-06, even 8mm.

8mm ammo is always cheap, and always corrosive.

The sights aren't great, but the rifles work, and with a little looking, can be had cheap enough (in 8mm).

Put on a .308 or .30-06 barrel, decent front sight, aftermarket receiver (peep) sight, and you have a good loaner rifle (and back-up).

[Colorado Pete]

If ammo interchangability is not a big issue, it's hard to beat an Enfield No. 4. Super-fast bolt with true rapid fire capability, a 10-round detachable magazine fed from the top with 'chargers' (what we call stripper clips), rear ghost ring battlesight that flips up (like the M1917) to a small-aperture peep with 1 MOA click elevation out to 1300 yards (!), replaceable bolt heads to correct headspace issues.
The sights do not have windage adjustments (the British taught their troops to hold off), and the triggers are not very fixable, but you can hit quite well out to ridiculous ranges as issued with ball ammo. And they are usually much less expensive than most anything else. Very good (new production) ball ammo can be had from Sellier & Bellot, though not as cheap as surplus military.

All in all a very effective piece.

[katooutdoors]

   I see your point on the 1903 rifle, parts availability is very good on those, so if I do run across one that is beat up and needs to be rebuilt I just may jump on it, it seems that the ones to get are Springfields numbered higher than 800,000 or the Rock Island 285,507 and up which had received the double heat treatment.

Now with the current ammo situation it seems the way to go might be the 308, unless you had the opportunity to by a few M-1's and stock up on ammo a while back, they still make 308 ball ammo and it is still in use, now here is a quote from the CMP.

Quote: Although we still have several thousand cans in inventory, the number of orders already being processed put us in a "sold out" status. All orders received before this announcement was posted on Feb. 2009 will be filled.

Also it seems no rifles will be shipped until 2010, now who knows what can happen until that time and who knows what comes next out of the Kremlin on the Potomac, so anyway the other day I did end up buying an Enfield in 308 dated 1965 for $189.00. I'll take a gamble on it and see how it works out but I will keep a look out for a 1903 to convert over to 308 this way in case the M-1A breaks down I can still get out to a few rifle matches.

[eaglescouter]

"Also it seems no rifles will be shipped until 2010"

The above is not accurate, the CMP ships rifles at least 5 days each week.  They are currently quite backlogged, but shipping still happens every business day.

[sur+rifle]

now here is a quote from the CMP.

Quote: Although we still have several thousand cans in inventory, the number of orders already being processed put us in a "sold out" status. All orders received before this announcement was posted on Feb. 2009 will be filled.

Also it seems no rifles will be shipped until 2010,

It is only Lake City 30.06 which is sold out.  Greek 30.06 ammo is still available from the CMP.  Right now shipping of CMP rifles is running about 3 1/2 months from receipt of order.  And they have instituted processes to improve upon this.  So orders received now should be shipped by summer.

More information can be found here: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=5965.0

[WarHall]

 
   Ok, so lets say you have an M-1A, would an Indian Enfield (308) be a good 2nd line choice, or I have heard of some Mausers with 308 barrels installed. What do you think, maybe I like old rifles too much.

That's what I did (Ishapore Enfield, .308). It's not a 'great' shooter, hits low left, but it's serviceable, I paid 200.00 for it, but the extra mag, ouch! I call it my 'Obama gun', It'll take 'em awhile to ban a 10-round bolt action, and I can fire that sucker real fast!

[Antibubba]

They do mean STRIPPED, and they do mean BAD BARREL.

I've bought one of these, never got it built, found a local one, dirt cheap and decent shape.

Well, the reason I ask is, I like the Enfield bolt and design, and the 10-round capacity, but I really don't want to get another caliber I have to stock up and be ready to load for.  OTOH, I have a few Mosin-Nagants, and lots of 54R, but the best that can be said about them is that they're durable.  I'd like to use a 1917 receiver to build up a scout-style rifle that shoots 7.62X54R but employs the Enfield bolt.  Powders, bullets, case dimensions, even pressures are very similar.

Please explain to me why this is a bad idea.   

[n00b]

Off Topic:
Antibubba gets me thinking about ammo supply, see the .303 and 30.06 are no longer used in any modern service (at least to my very limited knowledge) but the 7.62x54R is still used in SVD, PSL and similiar, which are still in service with many of the prevous "Soviet States" and former "Satellite States" of the USSR.  So I would think there will be surplus ammo for years to come, as long as someone is allowed to import it.

[Nickle]

They do mean STRIPPED, and they do mean BAD BARREL.

I've bought one of these, never got it built, found a local one, dirt cheap and decent shape.

Well, the reason I ask is, I like the Enfield bolt and design, and the 10-round capacity, but I really don't want to get another caliber I have to stock up and be ready to load for.  OTOH, I have a few Mosin-Nagants, and lots of 54R, but the best that can be said about them is that they're durable.  I'd like to use a 1917 receiver to build up a scout-style rifle that shoots 7.62X54R but employs the Enfield bolt.  Powders, bullets, case dimensions, even pressures are very similar.

Please explain to me why this is a bad idea.   

OK, P14/1917 Enfields aren't 10 round capacity, they're 5 round.

Those 1917's CMP has are a receiver and barrel, no other parts. No bolt, trigger, sight or mag parts. I would know, I bought one, to use as a receiver for a large caliber, and these actions are alightly longer than a Rem 700 or Win 70 action.

Now, fior what you're trying to do, there's much cheaper and easier ways to do this.

If you want a 7.62x54R bolt gun, buy a Mosin. Want a really accurate Mosin? Buy a Finnish Mosin.

On a side note, don't even think of building a 7.62x54R on a Lee-Enfield. The 7.62x54R is a high pressure cartridge, unlike the .303 British.

[shadling]

I know it's not mil-surp, but why not shoot something like a Remington 700 BDL in 30-06?  There are some very fine after-market peep sights peep sights available for it. 

[Nickle]

It would have to be one that works with stripper clips. Without them, the time loss would be too much.

IIRC, some do, but not all.

[Francis Marion]

They do mean STRIPPED, and they do mean BAD BARREL.

I've bought one of these, never got it built, found a local one, dirt cheap and decent shape.

Well, the reason I ask is, I like the Enfield bolt and design, and the 10-round capacity, but I really don't want to get another caliber I have to stock up and be ready to load for.  OTOH, I have a few Mosin-Nagants, and lots of 54R, but the best that can be said about them is that they're durable.  I'd like to use a 1917 receiver to build up a scout-style rifle that shoots 7.62X54R but employs the Enfield bolt.  Powders, bullets, case dimensions, even pressures are very similar.

Please explain to me why this is a bad idea.   

Asking a Lee Enfield to cope with standard 7.62x54 ammunition is not prudent; plus, to chamber the x54 in a Lee barrel, you end up with even less barrel material to support the new chambering in contrast to the amount of barrel surrounding the original 303 chambering- an amount of steel, I might add, that was originally designed around a black powder cartridge, not smokeless.  Bad idea in terms of increased cartridge pressure (7.62>>303) and in terms of decreased amount of steel between you and the chambered 7.62x54 round.
Less of a problem conceptually with the M1917 platform; I'd still want to draw it out and compare the new chambering in that case to verify ample chamber strength.  (It's also technically possible to make a lawn mower fly; one wonders, with the price of M2 ball from CMP being so reasonable, why convert a perfectly good M1917, even if entirely safe.)
Better yet, select a Moisin with a good barrel, from whatever manufacturer, and add a scope or target rear sight.  
It's easier, cheaper, and highly effective to add a sight upgrade than to re-chamber, I think.  

[johniim]

This might be a little off topic but with some of the prices I've seen discussed what about bolt action "sport rifles" ?  I travel alot for work and enjoy checking out the local pawn shops wherever I go. My MBR is an M1 my backup is an M1 my backup for my backup is a $280(tax included) rem 700 adl with scope in 30.06. I realize I may have just opened a can of worms but let's considder all our options.

[Old Dog]

I don't see anything wrong with a good commercial rifle.  They're lighter.  I don't know how durable it might be compared to the military surplus rifles (you know, will my M700 Remington take the punishment - wear, abuse, hard conditions, etc. - that my US Enfield will?)

Remington's first popular bolt action hunting rifle was sporterized version of the M1917 Enfields they made for the US Army for WW1 - the Model 30 (I think that's the right model number).

For that matter you can probably pick up sporterized US Enfields and 03 Springfields (and 03A3's) quite a bit cheaper than one in original condition. 

Whether you go with the military surplus rifle or the civilian hunting rifle you should get some essential spare parts.

[Colorado Sam]

Most of the newer commercial rifles in standard calibers will work just fine.

But for a reliable backup rifle, the mauser cant be beat. 8mm is stilll cheap and plentiful and will be for some time yet. You can also get large ring barrels in 30-06 or 308 for around $160.

That gives you a accurate reliable rifle for around $300. Then take that that 200 plus dollars you saved and put it into more ammo to train with or a LTR for the kids. (It's easier to come home with a new gun if you bring one for the kids to  )

[Antibubba]

But for a reliable backup rifle, the mauser cant be beat. 8mm is stilll cheap and plentiful and will be for some time yet. You can also get large ring barrels in 30-06 or 308 for around $160.

How difficult is it to convert one to a milder caliber? 

[jagr31]

may have been mentioned but the Indian / Ishapore Enfield 2a /2a1 .308
can be charged w/ 5 rnd nato /m14  stripper clips, also has 10 rnd mag


the Mag was only intended to be removed for cleaning or to be replaced if damaged .
Often even though they were standardized (sp?) , if the rifle has seen a fair
bit of use you may find feeding/ mag seating issues upon  switching mags.

Regards, Roy

[jagr31]

Asking a Lee Enfield to cope with standard 7.62x54 ammunition is not prudent; plus, to chamber the x54 in a Lee barrel, you end up with even less barrel material to support the new chambering in contrast to the amount of barrel surrounding the original 303 chambering- an amount of steel, I might add, that was originally designed around a black powder cartridge, not smokeless.  Bad idea in terms of increased cartridge pressure (7.62>>303) and in terms of decreased amount of steel between you and the chambered 7.62x54 round.




[/quote]


If you are talking about the No1 MKIII or the No. 4 MKI  you may find that the ruskie rnd and the .303 brit both run .311 bores . If my memory serves the .303 Brit is 57mm lenth case vice the Ruskie at 54mm.

many full bore African hunting rifles were built on the Enfield platform after the war , belive they were rebarrel but the reciever can handle  the stresses .

years ago on the mil-surp board there was a project, one member was pondering this very conversion ,
the barrel was figured to be the easy part , mill a few thousands , and ream the chamber a bit to mach case shoulder.
the fly in the butter milk was the Ruskie is a rimmed cartridge the Brit is not , project was dropped , unable to resolve bolt/ feeding issues w/ equipment avalible.

Sorry , I hold the Enfield in all it various forms to be the greatest bolt issue rifle produced ,
but that is a different thread

Regards, Roy 

[Buckshot]

years ago on the mil-surp board there was a project, one member was pondering this very conversion ,
the barrel was figured to be the easy part , mill a few thousands , and ream the chamber a bit to mach case shoulder.
the fly in the butter milk was the Ruskie is a rimmed cartridge the Brit is not , project was dropped , unable to resolve bolt/ feeding issues w/ equipment avalible.

Regards, Roy 

Roy,

Whoever told you that didn't know what they were talking about at all!

The .303 British and the 7.62 X 54r are BOTH rimmed cartridges!

Makes the whole subject suspect, with a basic error like that.

Buckshot

[Antibubba]

the Ruskie is a rimmed cartridge the Brit is not , project was dropped , unable to resolve bolt/ feeding issues w/ equipment avalible.

Buckshot is right on that one. 

Sorry , I hold the Enfield in all it various forms to be the greatest bolt issue rifle produced ,

Which is exactly why I wanted to do it.  An Enfield can be accurately fired almost as fast as a semiautomatic.  But as I'm not interested in holding a fragmentation device when I pull the trigger (without dragging wood  ), I will let it go, and focus on converting my S&W J-frame to .458 Lott.

[Nickle]

Nobody in their right mind would actually consider rechambering a Lee-Enfield to 7.62x54R.

Here's some stuff to consider:

.303 British is .311 bore, 7.62x54R is actually .310 bore. Small taters, but know there is a difference.

A .303 SMLE is a low pressure rifle and cartridge, while the 7.62x54R is a high pressure cartridge.

Only an Ishapore SMLE is capable of withstanding the 7.62x54R pressure, and those Ishy's are 7.62 NATO, .308 bore.

The 7.62x54R is considerably wider in the base than .303 British, and much wider than 7.62 NATO. The SMLE bolt won't have much material left on it after making it wide enough for the 7.62x54R, assuming it is wide enough in the first place.

Magazine issues are going to be a nightmnare.

And, should you actually succeed, what do you have? 

A lot of money (and time, if you do your own work) invested in a bolt action rifle that really isn't anything special. If you don't do your own work, you probably would be better off, $$$ wise, getting a PSL (Romanian Dragunov) and be done with it. Or a Mosin and tarting it up a little. At this point of investment, an M1 Garand from CMP is cheap in comaprison.

[Antibubba]

A lot of money (and time, if you do your own work) invested in a bolt action rifle that really isn't anything special. If you don't do your own work, you probably would be better off, $$$ wise, getting a PSL (Romanian Dragunov) and be done with it. Or a Mosin and tarting it up a little. At this point of investment, an M1 Garand from CMP is cheap in comaprison.

Alas, the Dragunov is an "Assault Weapon" here in California, and is prohibited.

may have been mentioned but the Indian / Ishapore Enfield 2a /2a1 .308 can be charged w/ 5 rnd nato /m14  stripper clips, also has 10 rnd mag.

No, the Ishapore has a 12 round mag, which makes it a prohibited item.

Why do you all think I spend so much time wanting to build impossible weapons?    

Don't let this happen to YOUR state!!!!

[Francis Marion]

This is absurd- an M1889 Schmidt Rubin has a 12 round mag. 

Would we tolerate arbitrary numerical limitations to our other rights?
*You don't need to associate with more than 10 friends. 
*You don't need to speak freely more than 10 times. 
*You can plead the fifth, but only ten times.

Roger, Antibubba, we need to improve the caliber of our representatives.  One voter at a time.   
We can't run voters through this program fast enough to reunite them with their heritage and that long-suffering lady, Liberty.

[Will]

 I have thought about this quite a bit lately.....I have quite a few .303 Enfields but ammo is very difficult to find these days, surplus is about gone it seems. So I thought about what ammo is readily available that I already have and of course .308 and .30-06 comes up. Everyone has pretty much named the .308 options- Enfields, Rebarreled Mausers-Israeli etc...and the FR8. All good choices but now getting pricey. The '06 options are also well known Springfields and Enfields, fine rifles but pricey. You pay as much for a CMP '03 as you do for a Rack Grade Garand.......

Here is another option- the "Bubba Springfield/Enfield." Where I live the pawnshops get in several Bubba'd Springfields every year. These are rifles that were sporterized during the 50's and 60's....the amount of "sporterizing" varies by example. Some guns were really cut up and others, not so much. These guns will NEVER have any collectors value as many were reblued, tapped, stocks cut etc.....They are also not very much in demand with modern hunters as you can buy a used Savage 110 "package rifle" for a few hundred bucks with a synthetic stock etc......I have bought "bubba" guns for $150 or so.

I have adopted a number of these "Bubba" rifles and restored them to some semblance of respectability. Using parts from gunshow cigar boxes, friends garages and attics (all real "gunnies" are packrats at heart) etc....you can rebuild many of these guns for not alot of money. They will never be 100% "correct" but they can easily be put back into useful form.

Just last year I bought an 03a3 for $125. It was in a Sporter stock (old fajen) but retained it's original sights. It had been drilled and tapped at one point for a scope mount but it never went any further apparently....The barrel had been polished and apparently cold blued, bore was very good. I sold the stock online for $50 and recouped that part of my investment. I then sprang for a reproduction stock, cost me $100 or so. I found some bands at a gunshow, crossbolts, sling swivels etc...and put it back together. A few screws filled the holes in the receiver....for less than $250 I have returned a Springfield to "duty". It shoots quite well and I have no fears of abusing an expensive collectible.....

[Francis Marion]

I think it's easier to find ammunition by the case than to modify a rifle.  Certainly in terms of cutting steel; none required. 
Have an Enfield?  Buy cases of ammo, buy decades worth of rounds.
People don't want to lay out the money to supply themselves for a long period.
People want, instead, to pay minimal dollars, as needed, to by a hundred rounds at a time, any time they want. 
At one time, that paradigm was valid.  Now, not so.  Ammunition is in shorter supply than ever. 
I still see 303 sold by the case.   As long as that's true, why wouldn't you want to stock up rather than mod a rifle.
303 versus 7.62x54? 
Today's market offers far more volume, quality, choices of 7.62x54 than 303.  Reloaders can always disassemble 7.62 ammunition to reload 303, following suitable load development procedures.  So even if 303 disappears entirely, you can still resupply yourself from 7.62 components.