BACKUP SURPLUS BOLT ACTION

[katooutdoors]

   Everyone here has at least one M-1 Garand, M-1A, or an AR-15, now out of all the bolt action surplus rifles out there that are still at a reasonable price which one do you think has the best durability factor. Now take into consideration that you have a good stock pile of brass to keep you going for a while and maybe even a few spare parts, the Mosin Nagant wasn't included since there is already a topic listed on it.

Enfield or Indian Enfield
Yugo Mauser
Czech Mauser
K31 Swiss

These rifles seem to be the most popular at the gun shows but you can add what you may think would be a good value for the money.
                                       

[Old Dog]

How about ammo compatibility?  Something using 30.06, .308 or .223?  If your primary and back up are the same caliber your bullets, brass, reloading gear would be easier to accumulate and might take up less space? 

[katooutdoors]

 
   Ok, so lets say you have an M-1A, would an Indian Enfield (308) be a good 2nd line choice, or I have heard of some Mausers with 308 barrels installed. What do you think, maybe I like old rifles too much.

[Big-D]

 
   Ok, so lets say you have an M-1A, would an Indian Enfield (308) be a good 2nd line choice, or I have heard of some Mausers with 308 barrels installed. What do you think, maybe I like old rifles too much.

I got an Chilean Mauser in .308 and I love it but like all Mausers the sights aren't that great. 

[metalbot]

The 7.5 Swiss round for the K-31 is a .30 cal bullet, fully interchangeable with the bullet of a .308.  The case is obviously different, but it gives you a little bit of interoperability from a reloading component perspective.

[sur+rifle]

All of the options you mentioned are better than 4 MOA accurate and are reliable and make good Appleseed rifles.  Looking for ammo compatibility with the more common 7.62X51 cartridge (for backup purposes to, say, an M1A) then there are three options in particular:

1) Ishapore Enfield 2A in 308.  They are very nice shooters and VERY quick.  But you need to have spare parts as they are somewhat prone to breakage.  Current prices are around $175 to $250.

2) A "traditional" mauser rebarreled in 308.  They tend to be built like tanks.  Current prices are $250+ depending on barrel quality.

3) Spanish FR-8 Mauser.  They have a peep sight standard and are also very robust. They are now in the $300 range.

You can find a wealth of information on all of these at www.surplusrifle.com.  There are many articles covering topics such as which spare parts to have, how to clean, relative accuracy, etc.  You should be able to find everything you need in the forums there.

[Antibubba]

As much as I love my Swedish Mauser, If I were going to an Appleseed with a bolt action, I'd take an Enfield.  The bolt on an Enfield is so smooth and easy to work that keeping my NPOA would be easy.  .303 or .308--it doesn't matter.

[Buckshot]

 
   Ok, so lets say you have an M-1A, would an Indian Enfield (308) be a good 2nd line choice, or I have heard of some Mausers with 308 barrels installed. What do you think, maybe I like old rifles too much.

Still not great sights but better than a traditional Mausers is the Spanish FR8.

Spanish M98 M1943 or M1944 8 mm Mauser short rifle converted to 7.62 X 51 NATO (or CETME) with a CETME style barrel, flash hider and sights mounted.

Buckshot

[hawkeye]

How about a 1903a3 or 1917 both have peep sights and are incredibly accurate. A .308 barrel can be screwed on to the 1903a3 if needed. Parts are cheap and made in USA. I use these as back up or I start the field shoot with them. I use one reload formula for all my 30.06. KISS Is what the Army taught.

[Nickle]

I have to concur with the 03-A3 and 1917 Enfield comments, and also add the 1903 Springfield.

All depends on what your regular rifle is.

Common caliber is a good great idea, as you'll only need ONE kind of ammo.

[wildman]

Back up rifles are a smart move. This a 100 dollar Serb M48 re-chambered in .308. This rifle produced a 92% 1st hit probability at 200 to 500 yards at the Tim Murphy shoot. The total cost of this rifle as shown was around 500 bucks scope included. You can do it.

[katooutdoors]

Ok, so far we have

1903 A3 or a 1917 - the ones that I've seen at the shows are pretty high like $800.00 and up

Ishapore Enfield 2A in 308 - they run around $200.00 w/ tax, so what spare parts would you need and should you get 2 of each. The barrels that I've seen on these look excellent.

Mauser - should you get, Yugo, Czech, German battle field pick up etc. or just a crusty old action and where would be the best place to get a barrel and a flash hider. Do you think you would need many spare parts on this setup.

I guess stripper clips would work in all of the above.

[Old Dog]

Whatever you buy, get some spare parts for it and shoot it enough to be familiar with it.  One of these days it'll be worth way more than you paid for it.

I know what many of these rifles cost today.  When I bought mine they cost:
03A3    $100
M1917  $95 (first couple)
03 Mk1 $135 (but it was really nice, looked like a new rifle)
03A4    $185 (rifle scope and rings, but not all at the same time)

Heck, my new M1A cost me $495 in 1978.  Look what they cost now.  Buy a good rifle and it will outlast you.

Oh, the durability question?  Is anything more durable than a M1917 Enfield?

[wildman]

Part of the fun putting the M48 was doing the research and finding the parts ect. Makes the project an educational one as well. If someone had told me what to do I probably wouldn't have listened anyway.

Before starting a project like building a rifle you need to define the mission. I built the M48 to be able to hit any man size target and smaller at any range at Ramseur. This same rifle would not be a good choice to try and use on an AQT. Yes it will put bullets in the same hole at 25 but the heavy very long barrel makes it very unhandy for off hand shooting. The scope make stripper clips un-useable so it is slow reloading.  Every rifle ever made is a comprise. 

Buy what you can afford try it out if you don't like it you can always sell it. Even if it doesn't shoot well you will have learned something.

[Wheeler44]

Oh, the durability question?  Is anything more durable than a M1917 Enfield?

Nope.

[Buckshot]

Oh, the durability question?  Is anything more durable than a M1917 Enfield?

The M1917 (and the Pattern '14) has one fault or soft spot.

The ejector is powered by a small spring formed as part of the ejector blade.

The small spring can break off and leave the rifle without a working ejector.

This was fixed for WW II with a coil spring powered replacement.  It was available for years but is out of production now.

A person who knows what they are doing can recreate the WW II fix with the old part, a dremel tool with a cut-off wheel and the flint spring out of a disposable lighter.

Buckshot

[Buzzstrike]

I used my AS "diploma" if you will along with my RWVA membership to go over to the CMP South in Alabama and picked up a nice chromed US Rifle Model 1917 (rack grade)back in November for around 300.00.

After some elbow grease and a bore brush, I have a very nice M2 ball bolt gun to go along with my M-1.

The 1917 now joins up with my No4. Mk1 Enfield and Mosin 91/59 carbine in the safe.

Gotta love em.

buzz.

[ashrn03]

Oh, the durability question?  Is anything more durable than a M1917 Enfield?

The M1917 (and the Pattern '14) has one fault or soft spot.

The ejector is powered by a small spring formed as part of the ejector blade.

The small spring can break off and leave the rifle without a working ejector.

This was fixed for WW II with a coil spring powered replacement.  It was available for years but is out of production now.

A person who knows what they are doing can recreate the WW II fix with the old part, a dremel tool with a cut-off wheel and the flint spring out of a disposable lighter.

Buckshot

Numrich still lists a replacement ejector.  http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd.asp?chrProductSKU=412570B&chrSuperSKU=412570&MC=  Very good idea to replace the original: I was amazed at how delicate it was.

[Old Dog]

You know, I'd seen the coil spring but didn't think much about it.  I forget which one of mine has that.  The other 3 still have the original skinny little leaf spring looking piece.  Maybe the heat treating on some of them was less than great.

[Nickle]

Here's what's available from CMP right now.

1903's and 03-A3's for $500. http://www.thecmp.org/m1903.htm

1917's for $300. Pretty rough. http://www.thecmp.org/m1917.htm

Of course, for $495-$595, you can get a really good "back up rifle", the M1 Garand. http://www.thecmp.org/m1garand.htm

[Old Dog]

You know, Nickle, you are exactly right.  That's why I can't talk myself into ordering a BA from the CMP.  The M1's are a better buy and in the event one really had problems it's still loaded with spare parts for the others.

Someone said you can have to many of them, but I'm not sure I believe that yet.

[ashrn03]

You know, I'd seen the coil spring but didn't think much about it.  I forget which one of mine has that.  The other 3 still have the original skinny little leaf spring looking piece.  Maybe the heat treating on some of them was less than great.

Heat treating that small a part back in the early 20th century could definitely have something to do with it.  I remember reading somewhere that a lot of the problems were related to or agravated by corrosion.  Highly stressed parts corrode more rapidly than mild steel, and the skinny little leaf spring is very stressed.  The Philippine Constabulary was issued 1917's and many of the extractors failed while fighting 1941-2 Japanese invasion of that very tropical country.

   

[biathlon]

Go to an Appleseed FIRST, then you'll be able to buy a CMP 1903a3 cheapo! They still have the greek pyrkal 30-06 in the spam cans too. 

[n00b]

CMP 1903a3 cheapo!

I believe those days are now gone.  I see on CMP's site that the only 1903a3's left are the Remington "S" Stocks @ $500 each before shipping and before any other charges.  http://www.thecmp.org/m1903.htm


On a side note:
Are these rifles released to CMP on a schedule?  The following comes from above listed page:
"THESE MODELS WILL NOT AGAIN BE AVAILABLE UNTIL 2010, AT THE EARLIEST."

[biathlon]

The one I got has 1943 on the chamber and comes up as one of the rifles made to match specs for sniper use. I call $500 for a rifle that shoots less than 1 inch groups "cheapo"!

[Old Dog]

The Marine snipers on Guadalcanal were regularly taking out Japanese soldier at 600 yds. with their 03 sniper rifles.  The Japanese refused to believe a hit at that range was anything but luck and would continue to use the river crossings and bathing spots even after losing people there.  Made the Marines job easier since they could go back to the same spot in a couple days and "do it again".

Whatever you pick, get ammo, spare parts and then sight it in and learn to use it.

[Antibubba]

From the CMP site:  M1917 STRIPPED BARRELED RECEIVER: Consists only of barrel and receiver - no other parts. Barrels are bad and will probably be dark with little rifling and will have rust and/or pitting. This grade is sold "as-is" with no refunds or exchanges. Shipping &Handling for the barreled receiver is $12.95.

Does "Receiver" include the bolt?  If so, $150 is a good deal.

[eaglescouter]

From the CMP site:  M1917 STRIPPED BARRELED RECEIVER: Consists only of barrel and receiver - no other parts. Barrels are bad and will probably be dark with little rifling and will have rust and/or pitting. This grade is sold "as-is" with no refunds or exchanges. Shipping &Handling for the barreled receiver is $12.95.

Does "Receiver" include the bolt?  If so, $150 is a good deal.

No, just the receiver and barrel, no other parts, no bolt.

[Buckshot]

You know, I'd seen the coil spring but didn't think much about it.  I forget which one of mine has that.  The other 3 still have the original skinny little leaf spring looking piece.  Maybe the heat treating on some of them was less than great.

Usually the original lasts till someone tries to take it out fo the bolt stop.

It breaks when they pry it out of it's slot.

Then you have to find a new one.  I think all the originals were used up in WW II rebuilds when they went to the coil spring replacement.

Buckshot

[Nickle]

From the CMP site:  M1917 STRIPPED BARRELED RECEIVER: Consists only of barrel and receiver - no other parts. Barrels are bad and will probably be dark with little rifling and will have rust and/or pitting. This grade is sold "as-is" with no refunds or exchanges. Shipping &Handling for the barreled receiver is $12.95.

Does "Receiver" include the bolt?  If so, $150 is a good deal.

No, just the receiver and barrel, no other parts, no bolt.

They do mean STRIPPED, and they do mean BAD BARREL.

I've bought one of these, never got it built, found a local one, dirt cheap and decent shape.