History repeating itself?

[rse2]

If this post is inappropriate here feel free to move it or delete it.

I came across this site a few weeks ago and I get that Appleseed is not a "2nd Amendment organization".  I don't know Mr. Frenandez anymore than from this .pdf post.  Maybe you all are familiar with him already but I found the resurrection of Alarm & Muster interesting from both a practical and historical standpoint.

The more we rely on modern communications and the less we know our fellows personally the less effective we are.  This website and forum could go away along with our cell service with the stroke of an executive order.  Then what?

http://tomfernandezproduction.com/Alarm%20&%20Muster%20-%20Thomas%20M.%20Fernandez.pdf

[bigiceman]

In reading Paul Revere's Ride, I too realize that we need some form of muster and communication with others of like mind. The idea of having at least three people who can mutually support is a good start, but I also think we need to go further.

[Fred]

   OK, here's the rub. How many have even gotten to Phase I - ie, have a three-man team?

   Dare I say, "precious few"?

   We are still in the very early stages of waking people up - even the volunteers on this site.

   If they were awake simply by virtue of being on this site, 90% of them would already have - or be developing - that three-man team which is so valuable.

    And already working on the issues related in the article referenced.

    Instead, we have a real problem of getting that 90% to do anything...

    There are days when I simply despair...

    But, back in Rev War days, there were 'black' days for those who believed in the Revolution, too, "times that tried men's souls..."

    When I think of that, I feel good, again...'black' days do not mean ultimately we will not prevail.

     

    Now, let's take a look at that article again, as our guy has stumbled a bit, primarily because he is grasping for what the founders accomplished - he wants this country to demonstrate the same ability to protect our freedoms as we did 200+ years ago.

     Yet what they did 200+ years ago was FAR more than create an effective notification system, more effective than we can create today (the "can" refers to "will", not inability).

     What the alarm and muster system did back then was alert an already prepared and trained people.

     We don't have that, today.

     There are few, way too few, Americans of today who are prepared and trained mentally - who are alert to their freedoms and heritage, and skilled in marksmanship.

     Revere and Dawes were simply activating, not only a prepared alarm and muster system, but an already prepared/trained/mentally awake people.

     As John Adams said, "The Revolution was won before the first shot was fired -  it was won in the hearts and minds of Americans."

     It's THAT battle that we have to win - otherwise, you have no one who will pay attention to your alarm/muster call.

     That is our mission at Appleseed - to get people to that state where we can say, "we've won before the first shot was fired" - if we can do that, there will be no need for the "first shot to be fired" - because an alert, liberty-loving populace can vote the current political ignorants out of office, and put in some fellow Appleseeders - right?

     That's both the beauty and the shame of it.

     The beauty, that the founders have done the hard work for us, that all we have to do is wake up and use the representative system they fought 8 years to win for us - and the shame is that we're too lazy to get off the couch and make it work.

     The author of the article sorta glimpses what we are doing. He says when they ban handguns, he's going door-to-door to recruit Americans who aren't willing to give up their rights (handguns). Well, and I say this with respect, because the author is not only intelligent, but working on the same side of the tracks as us, good luck.

     If we can't get them out to an Appleseed, you certainly won't get them out for what he has in mind.

     The time to win the hearts and minds is BEFORE the crisis arises, not after.

     After is too late - way too late - and success is too problematic - I'd be willing to say, about nil.

     In case you want to know why some of us appear so driven in this mission that we call "Appleseed", now you know.

     The guy who wrote the article needs to know about us. He would be a great asset to our program. Can someone contact him and steer him our way?

     We have the example of the American Revolution and the Revolutionary War before us, a winning example.

     We also have examples of losing rebellions in the same time period: men who thought they had winning issues, but did not have the hearts and minds of the people behind them. Folks, I give you the Whiskey Rebellion (I don't think it was about whiskey; it was about taxation), and Shay's Rebellion. Both are obscure today, because neither went anywhere.

      And I predict, if someone wants to "start something" when handguns are banned - or for any other 'seminal' reason, I doubt what he starts will amount to either of these failed rebellions. Note even a footnote in the pages of history (as history will be written by liberals, and the last thing they'll record will be an attempt to save liberties with armed force).

     So, disabuse yourself of the notion that armed rebellion is an option. Guess I should say, a "realistic" or a "viable" option - it's always an option, but in the climate of the American people today, it won't even amount to "one strike of a match" - it's a loser proposition from the word "go". Despite macho fantasies you might entertain to the contrary.

     Enjoy those fantasies if you want. Just keep them in your mind, where they belong. They will not work in today's America. And if you want to say, "better to fight and lose, than surrender meekly", good for you - but ask yourself why you're not giving 100% to this program, right now.

     And, just to underscore my point, if you (we) are successful in waking the American people, we will have won the battle - and the war. We will have government by people who know the heritage of the Founders, and liberty should (will) be in safe hands.

      Appleseed will not be finished then. Just as "eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" so there will be the need for a continual program to ensure that Americans are kept in touch, from generation-to-generation, with their history and heritage. We should never fall into the falsehood of relying on government schools to carry the message. That is OUR duty, and we forsake it at our - and Liberty's - peril.



     Now, on a tactical note: How many of you were left "all at sea" when our site went down for a day or less a month or so ago?

     Unless you called some people, you had no idea what was going on - and when you called them, they didn't either.

     It suggests to me that we need a "Plan B" in case the site goes down in the future. A rally point, if you will.

     Or a mechanism by which we can communicate and get any necessary word out.

     Any ideas?

[B9]

       Now, on a tactical note: How many of you were left "all at sea" when our site went down for a day or less a month or so ago?

     Unless you called some people, you had no idea what was going on - and when you called them, they didn't either.

     It suggests to me that we need a "Plan B" in case the site goes down in the future. A rally point, if you will.

     Or a mechanism by which we can communicate and get any necessary word out.

     Any ideas?

Should be a simple flow chart listing communication avenues in descending order.

1: This forum

2: A secondary forum. One AS friendly ie: WarrRifles or similar.

3: Telephone. Requries you to gather phone numbers from your areas team members.

4: Ham radio? I don't know many people with these but it would be next in order.

5: A physical rally point. Hears an idea, why not have all of your team members meet at least once a month, on a posted schedule made out months in advance, everyone bring supplies for 3 days, rifles and ammo...... Wait, we already do this, right? I knew it was a great idea.

So maybe we can refine this and maybe drop the Ham radio part. Get your teams, get thier phone numbers and get everyone meeting at an AS once a month.


BTW I sent an introduction and invitation to Mr. Fernandez.

[Fred]

   "Plus 1" on all the above.

    Perhaps #5 can be integrated with local "Appleseed Get-togethers"?

[Rumpshot]

Why drop the Ham Radio part? It is not that expensive a hobby.  2 or 3 months worth of cell phone bills would set you up very nicely with modern radios.  Classes are cheap, usually provided free by local ham radio clubs.  Licensing is easier than ever before, no morse code requirement.  Anyone savvy enough to use a computer and the internet should have no problem learning and using ham radio.

If you are meeting friends somewhere and need to make a stop at the local doughnut shop on the way, it is easy to tell them that you will be late cuz you are bringing doughnuts and coffee.

Besides it gives you a chance to widen your horizon and meet new friends.  It also gives you another communication method that works very well "off grid."

Lastly, if something did come down that shut down the internet, the local hams would know about it faster than the local radio station.

One last thing.  Most jurisdictions that prohibit using cell phones when driving have an exemption for ham radio use while driving.

[B9]

I did not mean drop Ham out of the plan, I just don't know of many of the "younger crowd" that has one. They do look to be cheaper than what was thought.

Mr. Fernandez replied to my email. He has been in contact with the Missouri and Florida State Coordinators. 

[Texas EMT]

Extra Class Ham Radio Operator here....anyone has any questions, feel free to ask or PM me.

[funfaler]

We need a coordinated "contact rendesvouz"


2)  Friendly 'other forum'.    I suggest either warrifles or TheHighRoad.  At this point, with the divide of TheHighRoad, and the very likely disruption of that site, makes me lean toward Warrifles.  Brian is a good guy, and we have a fairly good relationship with them.  Frugal Squirrels is not a bad location, however, they do not have a PM system, thus will make communication a little difficult.

So, we need a rally call, on their sight, we will make a post, "Any Appleseeders Here" on their General Discussion board.  Use that as a way to generate PMs to those that post in the affirmative, to that post, and go from there.

4)  Those that are Hams here are best suited to sort out the details.  However, I suggest that we select some common communication nets, piggy back on their net, using their frequencies, repeaters and such.  Establish a communication protocol. 

Suggestion:  Under the condition that our web site becomes unusable, there is an attempt to contact those Hams via these prearranged methods.  It might be of service if the Hams ID themselves to a coordinator of this effort.   From there, perhaps a phone tree?  Or at the very least an ability to contact some key members, so that we can confirm the continuation of the coming Appleseeds and any other needed communications.

[Dark watch]

General Class ham operator here...  any questions you can pm me too.
On a side note cell phones are not a great communication tool even though we all use them all the time.  Most cell phone companies cell sites can only handle 3 to 5 percent of the phones on there  services before shutting down.  Which means that if something was to happen (earthquake, storm, terrorist attack, civil unrest) the systems go down completely.  Also the federal government has also made some kind of an arrangement with the cellular providers for a quick disconnect in case of a terrorist attack that will shut down all systems, so that the terrorist can not use cell phones to remote detonate any other sites.
Ham radio has so many ways to communicate that the messages will get through no matter what.  In my opinion ham radio should be a part of all three day kits.

Dark Watch

[FiremanBill]

We need a coordinated "contact rendezvous"


2)  Friendly 'other forum'.    I suggest either warrifles or TheHighRoad.  At this point, with the divide of TheHighRoad, and the very likely disruption of that site, makes me lean toward Warrifles.  Brian is a good guy, and we have a fairly good relationship with them.  Frugal Squirrels is not a bad location, however, they do not have a PM system, thus will make communication a little difficult.

So, we need a rally call, on their sight, we will make a post, "Any Appleseeders Here" on their General Discussion board.  Use that as a way to generate PMs to those that post in the affirmative, to that post, and go from there.

4)  Those that are Hams here are best suited to sort out the details.  However, I suggest that we select some common communication nets, piggy back on their net, using their frequencies, repeaters and such.  Establish a communication protocol.

Suggestion:  Under the condition that our web site becomes unusable, there is an attempt to contact those Hams via these prearranged methods.  It might be of service if the Hams ID themselves to a coordinator of this effort.   From there, perhaps a phone tree?  Or at the very least an ability to contact some key members, so that we can confirm the continuation of the coming Appleseeds and any other needed communications.

Funfaler -

I agree.  We Ham radio ops ought to have a site here where we can establish details of this requirement, and work out a structured solution.

I suggest the admin folks give us a new BOARD, say "Communications" and let us put out a call for ALL HAMS to check in for their comm assignments. I suggest we park the new BOARD under the INFO CENTER Forum. 

I'm willing to dedicate some effort to getting this rolling.       Combined with comm initiatives, we need to be establishing structure in how we organize locally, and how locals communicate further up the national network of Appleseeders.

I also understand that some Appleseed HAMS will be invading the Dayton OH area for HAMVENTION.  Those that do come here in Mid-May (3rd weekend) ought to consider working with me to set up a meeting.    Thoughts? 
come on, fellow hams!  Here's your chance to be the modern day Paul Revere...


73,

FiremanBill

de N8NRT

[rse2]

It's not my place to say but this line seems in need of moving out of History forum or at least continued elsewhere.

With all due respect as I'm new here so feel free to blast me, move me or delete me out of here.
I have some thoughts and observations of "the problem" that may not be appropriate here though they are based in recent history.  Regarding the "enemy" and what is likely to, and has already been proven to, happen upon a "ban" or some kind.  We know that the Frog in the pot is the current long strategy and what you all are doing is a partial remedy.  But what if Holder/Sorsos et al get impatient and with their perceived "mandate" and move forward with dispatch.  Alarm and Muster?  To what end?  Three man teams?  The Brits pretty much cleaned their clocks on the road back to Boston.  Waco?  Numbers is what is needed.  Numbers with a plan.  I believe that many states prohibit armed groups or "militias" that are not organized or controlled by the state.  Arizona being one IIRC.  I know that none of you are going down that particular road and are being as apolitical as possible and Appleseed is an history education organization.
IMHO We need to face some hard realities.  The good news is that the antis are already disarmed (unlike the Torys).  The bad news is, law enforcement and the military, who one would hope would be on our and the Constitution's, side but are controlled and paid by politicians, may not be.  How do we engage them.  And to all you military and LEO Appleseeders, thank you for your service and your participation.  Now, how will you react to Gage's orders?  How will any of us?

With Highest Regards for all your efforts,
Where should I go with this?

[Fred]

    rse2, anywhere you go with it, you're looking for trouble.

    And if you think you are going to find a sympatico hard-bitten lot of freedom-fighters on the 'net, I think you will be sadly disappointed.

     We agree that "numbers are needed" - and we are building them, as fast as we can - #10,000 this year; #100,000 three years from now; and 7 years from now - if we are lucky, work hard, and keep our noses clean - #1,000,000.

     Is that numbers enough for you?

     If so, help us out - sign on to this program - and let's make it work. Whatever happens in the meantime, happens in the meantime. But if you make the commitment to this program, stick it out for seven years, and see if you aren't happier then than now.

[fepowered]

It's not my place to say but this line seems in need of moving out of History forum or at least continued elsewhere.

With all due respect as I'm new here so feel free to blast me, move me or delete me out of here.
I have some thoughts and observations of "the problem" that may not be appropriate here though they are based in recent history. 
With Highest Regards for all your efforts,
Where should I go with this?

The reality is that you should save Iceberg discussions for another forum.  This entire forum is dedicated to Appleseed.  All Appleseed All of the time.  Iceburgs are not part of the Appleseed mission.  There is way too much work to do in just waking up America and getting them to an Appleseed shoot to get bogged down with Icebergs.  The reality is that the numbers of Rifleman nation wide is stil pitifully inadequate.


Iceburgs are much of the primary discussion on these boards though......  http://www.awrm.org/......  http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=1&f=5

Remember, even on these boards, there are rules for posting such as .....
4.) Posting comments or links in support of illegal activities including, but not limited to, threats against the life of any living person, doing harm to a state or federal official, or advocating the overthrow of the government.

[rse2]

Fred I absolutely agree with you.  Which was kind of my point.  I was a little surprised by the responses that seemed to want to continue the "practical" alarm discussion as I got that this is NOT a 2nd Amdt board or a survivalist board or even a political board.  The Fantasy freedom fighters who are looking forward to some kind of Mad Max, Postman type world to ply their skills in need a reality check.  I really really don't want that world.  Nor do I want Northern Ireland or Baghdad or Kabul or Lexington part II in this country.

When asked why do I arm myself, my stock answer has become: Zombies.  I'm more concerned about the collapse of government than the government.  I've seen what a hurricane can do first hand.  Just as the colonial militias were not formed to fight their own government neither do we expect or desire to need to.  Hell we're supposed to be the government.  We should be able to fix what's wrong.  We just got lazy and let the camel get a lot more than it's nose into the tent.
Education, education, education.  We can fight indoctrination with eduction.  This country needs programs like Appleseeds and the re-ennactor groups and books and movies and television to "engage" the people in their own history again.  This is a philosophical battle not a military one.  To that end I both laud and support your efforts.  I do hope to join you soon.

Sorry if my posts were interpreted in ways not intended and hope I am still welcome here.

[smle]

Fred I absolutely agree with you.  Which was kind of my point.  I was a little surprised by the responses that seemed to want to continue the "practical" alarm discussion as I got that this is NOT a 2nd Amdt board or a survivalist board or even a political board.  The Fantasy freedom fighters who are looking forward to some kind of Mad Max, Postman type world to ply their skills in need a reality check.  I really really don't want that world.  Nor do I want Northern Ireland or Baghdad or Kabul or Lexington part II in this country.

When asked why do I arm myself, my stock answer has become: Zombies.  I'm more concerned about the collapse of government than the government.  I've seen what a hurricane can do first hand.  Just as the colonial militias were not formed to fight their own government neither do we expect or desire to need to.  Hell we're supposed to be the government.  We should be able to fix what's wrong.  We just got lazy and let the camel get a lot more than it's nose into the tent.
Education, education, education.  We can fight indoctrination with eduction.  This country needs programs like Appleseeds and the re-ennactor groups and books and movies and television to "engage" the people in their own history again.  This is a philosophical battle not a military one.  To that end I both laud and support your efforts.  I do hope to join you soon.

Sorry if my posts were interpreted in ways not intended and hope I am still welcome here.

Sounds to me like your'e starting to beat yourself up. Stop. NOW.
All of your posts have been respectful and diplomatic.
That is a good thing.
Your subject matter is good. You started out on what look liked an inocent thread that went off on a different tangent than expected.
The good news. You may have started a sperate thread for like minded ham radio operators.
Welcome aboard
smle

[fepowered]

It's not my place to say but this line seems in need of moving out of History forum or at least continued elsewhere.........

With all due respect as I'm new here so feel free to blast me, move me or delete me out of here.
I have some thoughts and observations of "the problem" that may not be appropriate here though they are based in recent history. ...... But what if Holder/Sorsos et al get impatient and with their perceived "mandate" and move forward with dispatch.  Alarm and Muster?  To what end?  Three man teams? .....IMHO We need to face some hard realities.  ....... How do we engage them.  And to all you military and LEO Appleseeders, thank you for your service and your participation.  Now, how will you react to Gage's orders?  How will any of us?  With Highest Regards for all your efforts,
Where should I go with this?

Fred I absolutely agree with you.  Which was kind of my point.  I was a little surprised by the responses that seemed to want to continue the "practical" alarm discussion as I got that this is NOT a 2nd Amdt board or a survivalist board or even a political board. 

The only responses you received were to tell you that this is not the thread, forum nor organization to carry on the "practical" alarm discussion.....
The ham radio side bar merely discussed an alternate form of simple communication in a modern age.... 

Now let's move on and get you signed up for an Appleseed!!!

[eaglescouter]

An alternative communication system that is spread accross multiple time zones and not under the control of any single ISP is Internet Relay Chat.  The software is free (I use mIRC which is available from download.com) and there are many networks of distributed servers available to choose between.  The service is free, and discussion channels can easily be created.

I have set up a testing area for you on the SynIrc network, channel name is Appleseed.

One option that works from anywhere and requires no software:
1.  Go to http://cgiirc.synirc.net/
2.  Enter your preferred user name
3.  Enter #Appleseed for a channel name
4.  Press 'login'

2nd option that requires software:
1.  Install mIRC from http://www.download.com/mIRC/3000-2150_4-10001733.html
2.  Configure mIRC to join #Appleseed
(If you need detailed instructions I can provide them)

This tool allows users to chat in real time.

#Appleseed is now open.

[Dark watch]

Nobody that is here on this site and helping with the cause thinks armed insurrection is the way to go.  We are here to wake up the sleeping American and turn him or her into an American hero, The Rifleman, someone who is there to help protect all freedoms before there is no choice but for an insurrection.  Some of the many other jobs of a Rifleman is to wake up others who have been asleep to the loss of freedoms.  To teach those that want to learn why we are Americans and why what our forefathers did was so important.  To teach the youth what is missing in most history classes.  Teach those that are new or old to firearms how to safely use them to their fullest potential.  And to be defender of Home, Family, Community and Country.  This last one is the most important at this time.  Being there for sleeping Americans when they need it most is the fastest way to get the word out and wake them up.  We have one advantage over all other groups in this regard we are every where the sleeping American are.  And with our forward thinking ideas we will be the first on the scene and the need to be the most prepared to help those in need.  That is why communication is so important to us now.  The more ways to communicate we use and set up to use the faster we can get the word out.  The faster we can save America.

[VaWolf]

FACT: communication is key.
FACT: The people on this forum feel their liberty is being taken away.
FACT: Politicians just want to be elected.
FACT: very few people vote, even fewer follow up with how their candidates actually vote. Here in Virginia I am blessed with the Virginia Cititzens Defense League. They infom me by email when anti gun bills are up for vote so I can email, phone, whatever to tell them my displeasure of anti gun bills.
FACT: To keep from fighting the hard war we must win the ledgeslative war.
FACT: We must always be prepared to win the hard war.
nuf said

[rse2]

VaWolf: The Virginia Cititzens Defense League folks are amazing.  I hope to return to Virginia someday soon and I've been with these folks for a couple of years now.  Jim and Philip and all the rest.  They have got our backs no doubt about it.

[eaglescouter]

 http://www.georgia-arms.com/

Bright red page, such a waste......

[fepowered]

http://www.georgia-arms.com/

Bright red page, such a waste......

This is an example of an Iceberg alert which ends up wasting valuable Appleseed time. This issue is being resolved and that dealer among others have over reacted.  Let's leave Icebergs to other forums.   It is better to paste a link to a thread on another site than to waste Appleseed bandwidth with Iceberg reports.....
ICEBERG REPORT