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A Nation of Marksmen? Legend & truth often differ dramatically

Started by Buzzworth, December 23, 2008, 12:44:56 PM

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Buzzworth

O.K. got your attention :)

this got me too  ;)

Its good stuff

I wonder if Clayton E. Cramer has been to a Appleseed (maybe so)

From NRA 1st freedom magazine January 2009

My favorite quote is from a letter to William Bradford from James Madison 1775

"The Strength of this Colony will be chiefly in the rifle-men of the Upland Counties of whom we will have great numbers"

read the rest attached sorry about the scan I could not find it as a download
No Guns, No safety, No freedom
KNOW Guns, KNOW Safety, KNOW FREEDOM

PJEVANS

Excellent job! ;D

Guess I'll have to subscribe to that mag also.
Phil Evans
'Loud noises do not usually stop a gun fight,
     Well placed hits do'

jmdavis

Great Article!


I like how they worked Samuel Whittamore into the ending.



"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner

bigiceman

Outstanding article. Good illustration of the power of perseverance and skill at arms.
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. - unknown
The road to tyranny is paved with apathy - Me

  Revolutionary War Veterans Association Shooter.  Classification: Cook 

  WE ARE FREE BECAUSE OF THE BRAVE

TaosGlock

Most excellent!
I can hardly wait to get my next NRA issue.
89 fantastic Appleseeds since 2008/24 Libertyseeds!
Adventure Camp Director/Current Lead Rifle Instructor: NRA WC Raton,NM
New Mexico's first Rifleman: Sept. 2008 NRAWC
Their walls are filled with cannonballs, their motto is don't tread on me-Grateful Dead
Liberty is not a cruise ship full of pampered passengers. It is a man of war and we are all crew-Boston T. Party
"Make no mistake, when you cheer for the people of the American Revolution, you are cheering for traitors and criminals.
They broke the law, because liberty is always illegal"- Larken Rose

SonoftheRepublic

Thanks to the marksmanship skills taught in Appleseed, and today's modern equipment . . . American rifle marksmanship is alive and well!  The Founders would be proud.
Give them the History, Immerse them in the Tradition. - The Power of Appleseed

The Appleseed Project - "Returning America To A Nation Of Riflemen"

bigiceman

In this article they talk about specific companies and regiments having exceptional marksmanship. This is something newsworthy. The British General speaks of the one particular company agains his lines, but no mention of the others. I have no doubt that there were many fine marksmen, especially along the frontier where the use of firearms made the difference between eating and not eating. No mention is made of crack rifle companies being fielded from the cities or heavily populated areas along the sea coast. I think that this translates into "A nation of riflemen" that is probably in proportion to the quote of Hericletus below. I am not sure if the rifleman is the ONE or if the top ten are all riflemen.

"Of every one-hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there. Eighty are nothing but targets. Nine are real fighters. We are lucky to have them, they make the battle. AH, BUT THE ONE! One of them is a WARRIOR and he will bring the others back." - Hericletus c. 500 B.C.

If this proportion of riflemen-vs-townsmen was translated to todays population I wonder how it would compare? When you took the riflemen of the Appleseed Project and others who shoot well from practical use or some sort of training and put them against today's population how would the two compare?
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. - unknown
The road to tyranny is paved with apathy - Me

  Revolutionary War Veterans Association Shooter.  Classification: Cook 

  WE ARE FREE BECAUSE OF THE BRAVE

Old Dog

 short read on how the arrival of companies of rifleman from the frontier counties of PA, MD and VA delayed a British effort to break out of the Colonial Army's siege of Boston.  Effective use of psychological warfare based on feats of skilled shooting unmatched in New England until the arrival of the riflemen and use of their stealth and physical conditioning as well as their marksmanship.

Two of the rifleman companies marched 550 miles (in 22 days) and 600 miles (in 21 days).  Think about that.  Right at 30 miles per day carrying everything they needed back in a time when there weren't many good roads spanning the countryside.

They scared the snot out of the British as word of their appearance, actions and skills spread throught the countryside by word of mouth as well as being printed in the newspapers:

"Captain Cresap's Company of Riflemen, consisting of 130 active, brave young fellows...With their rifles in their hands they assume a kind of omnipotence over their enemies...Two brothers in the company took a piece of board, five inches broad, and seven inches long, with a bit of white paper, about the size of a dollar, nailed to the center, and while one of them supported this board perpendicularly between his knees, the other at the distance of upwards of sixty yards, and without any kind of rest, shot eight bullets successively through the board, and spared a brother's thighs! Another of the company held a barrel stave perpendicularly in his hand, with one edge close to his side, while one of his comrades, at the same distance, and in the manner before mentioned, shot several bullets through it, without any apprehensions of danger on either side. The spectators appearing to be amazed at these feats, were told that there were upwards of fifty persons in the company who could do the same thing; and there was not one who could not plug 19 bullets out of 20 (as they termed it) within an inch of the head of a ten penny nail; in short, to evince the confidence they possessed in their dexterity at these kinds of arms, some of them proposed to stand with apples on their heads, while others at the same distance undertook to shoot them off; but the people, who saw the other experiments, declined to be witnesses of this. At night a great fire was kindled round a pole planted in the courthouse square, where the company with the Captain at their head, all naked to the waist and painted like savages (except the Captain, who was in an Indian shirt), indulged a vast concourse of the inhabitants with a perfect exhibition of a war dance, and all the manoevures [sic] of Indians holding council, going to war, circumventing their enemies, by defiles, ambuscades, attacking, scalping, etc. It is said by those who are judges, that no representation could possibly come nearer the original. The Captain's agility and expertness, in particular, in these exhibitions, astonished every beholder. This morning they will set out on their march to Cambridge."18 On August 9th these riflemen arrived in Cambridge."

http://www.americanrevolution.org/riflemen.html

"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

ACP230

I think it was "Mad" Anthony Wayne who wanted the rifles withdrawn  and muskets issued in their place. 
One of the reasons was the Pennsylvania rifle was a very poor bayonet mount.  Tactics of the day generally called for one volley to be fired and then quick follow up with the bayonet.
Smoothbore muskets were also generally quicker to load than rifles.
   
This is not to say that rifle-armed Americans didn't do a lot of damage to the British forces.  Morgan's riflemen certainly did so at Freeman's Farm.                     


jmdavis

Quote from: ACP230 on December 23, 2008, 11:26:54 PM
   
This is not to say that rifle-armed Americans didn't do a lot of damage to the British forces.  Morgan's riflemen certainly did so at Freeman's Farm.                     

Tim Murphy!

Another man who knew what he was about.
"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner

Old Dog

I need to find it again but somewhere I have a followup to all those "hill billies" who grabbed their rifles and gear and took off to New England looking for a fight.

They were shooting the English sentries from unbelievable distances, sneaking up on the sentries and either killing them with a knife or kidnapping them and when they couldn't fight the English they were drinking and fighting with each other.

The folks in charge up there didn't know how to use them or control them and when they finally left and went home they were glad to see them go.  But while they were there the put the FEAR into the English troops who would not go out on patrols day or night.  Those guys had a lot to do with shutting the English up inside Boston.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

Nickle

Old Dog, totally right.

The folks that lived up here that lived way back in the sticks, didn't get involved in the fighting around Boston.

They got involved in the fighting in the Lake Champlain/Lake George/Upper Hudson River valley area.
They have men amongst them who know very well what they are about, having been employed as Rangers against the Indians and Canadians and this country being much covered with wood, and hilly, is very advantageous for their method of fighting. . . . ".  Lord Percy

Sounds like New Englanders to me.

V

This months issue of the NRA's America's First Freedom magazine has an article by Clayton E. Cramer on the veracity of the claims of marksmanship for the Revolutionary War minutemen. Comes to the conclusion that they were generally 4 MOA men. Duh!

Shame it didn't mention Appleseed for trying to preserve the tradition. I'm going to write a letter to the editor about it, why don't we all join in.

Maybe we could even persuade Clayton to come back and continue the fight here in California... having departed a few years ago from California to Idaho...  but he's a good man on the right side who continues the fight.

Happy New Year

V

Fred


   It's possible someone at the NRA has noticed Appleseed, and this is the first trickle of "more later" - who knows? @)
"Ready to eat dirt and sweat bore solvent?" - Ask me how to become an RWVA volunteer!

      "...but he that stands it now, deserves the thanks of man and woman alike..."   Paine

     "If you can read this without a silly British accent, thank a Revolutionary War veteran" - Anon.

     "We have it in our power to begin the world over again" - Thomas Paine

     What about it, do-nothings? You heard the man, jump on in...

Buzzworth

No Guns, No safety, No freedom
KNOW Guns, KNOW Safety, KNOW FREEDOM

lysander6

Cramer is currently unemployed and lives near Boise, ID.  Fred should offer him a free Appleseed event in southern ID.
Gun control is mind control.

" Of every One-Hundred men, Ten shouldn't even be there,
Eighty are nothing but targets,
Nine are real fighters...
We are lucky to have them...They make the battle,
Ah, but the One, One of them is a Warrior...
and He will bring the others back."

- Heraclitus (circa 500 BC)

My Blog:  http://zerogov.com/

On Appleseed sabbatical since 2012...

Fred


   FWIW, I contacted Cramer by phone about this time, and he expressed NO interest in Appleseed, free or not... :(
"Ready to eat dirt and sweat bore solvent?" - Ask me how to become an RWVA volunteer!

      "...but he that stands it now, deserves the thanks of man and woman alike..."   Paine

     "If you can read this without a silly British accent, thank a Revolutionary War veteran" - Anon.

     "We have it in our power to begin the world over again" - Thomas Paine

     What about it, do-nothings? You heard the man, jump on in...