Split weekend appleseed events

[InBox485]

I've been to a couple Saturday events, but my weekly schedule has Sundays blocked out between church and family obligations. I was thinking about this, and the more I thought about it, the more it occurred to me that I can't possibly be the only one, and that there are probably many others with my type of schedule. Actually forget the probably, I see a couple hundred such individuals each Sunday.

So, I was wondering if doing an Appleseed event over a split weekend could be worth a trial run? My gut tells me that not only will there be a whole lot of people that will make both days that would otherwise, but there would likely end up being a bunch of people interested in longer term involvement continuing the Saturday events.

One thought I had to get this off the ground as a soft sell would be to have a standard weekend event. Then have a "day 2" event the next Saturday open only to those who have previously been to at least a day 1 before. This way, the "day 2" would also attract those still stretching for the Rifleman patch even if they didn't make it to the Saturday before.

Just a thought being thrown out there, but the more I think about it, the more I think this will open up doors for people that otherwise might never come.

[Unbridled Liberty]

This idea has merit.  Thanks for sharing.  I may have to steal this for a trial run in Kentucky.

UL

[funfaler]

Some thoughts, for what they are worth.

Trying to split up the standard AS event is a complication which the program may not need to deal with.   It makes explanation of the process to outsiders a little more complicated, and frankly, it appears that the program is already overly complicated for many folks to grasp.

I understand what you are saying about folks not being able to attend on Sunday, and there have been folks who only want to attend Sunday, if they have previously been to an Appleseed, so they can do the AQT grind and work for a Patch.

Obviously those who elect to only attend one day of a standard event, do so for their own reasons. 

Saturdays (Day one) is where the bulk of the instruction is done (and history) so little time left for AQTs.   Sunday (Day two) is usually where the AQT grind comes in.

What might be interesting, from a "promotions" aspect, is "AQT Daze" or maybe "Patch Quest Days"

Obviously this is a "repeat customer" event.   So until there is some sort of fee restructuring within the program, this sort of an event would be a guaranteed money loser for the program.

But such an event could serve to prolong a persons exposure to the Appleseed community and culture, and serve to bring people from several different events together in one additional event.

Let me ask you directly, InBox485, do you think that such an event could be promoted as a "new event" for Appleseed, and could the program charge everyone for this event?   

The point being, a "free" event of this sort is of little use to the program, as it would cost the program money to run, Instructor time/cost, and valuable range time which could be used for a standard Appleseed event.   

However, if there were a fee for this course and all paid the fee (except children with a paid adult), then the program would be able to cover the expenses and perhaps gain some promotional opportunities.

So, would $45 per head, man, woman, military, LEO, etc be something that you think would "fly"? 

This is the "single day" price of Appleseed admission.

If not, then what would you suggest as a fee for such an event? 

Thanks for your input and idea.

[TruTenacity]

You might want to ask Patriot Gal.  IL has done split shoots.  I don't recall what the pros and cons were.

[TrebleShooter]

Utah folks deal with this very issue as well. They not only run split shoots, but fri-sat shoots as well. As far as pros/cons, let me get my sister, sharpeyedfirechild ( RH UT) to jump in with her findings.

[InBox485]

Let me ask you directly, InBox485, do you think that such an event could be promoted as a "new event" for Appleseed, and could the program charge everyone for this event?   

The point being, a "free" event of this sort is of little use to the program, as it would cost the program money to run, Instructor time/cost, and valuable range time which could be used for a standard Appleseed event.   

However, if there were a fee for this course and all paid the fee (except children with a paid adult), then the program would be able to cover the expenses and perhaps gain some promotional opportunities.

So, would $45 per head, man, woman, military, LEO, etc be something that you think would "fly"? 

This is the "single day" price of Appleseed admission.

If not, then what would you suggest as a fee for such an event? 

Thanks for your input and idea.

When suggesting this, I had no intention of suggesting it be a free day. Yes the idea would be that it would be paid for as a single day ($45 at current) event or as a two day event (one Saturday, then the next at $70 - same difference to the payer). Allowing any previous Appleseed students return to the second day (similar to Sunday only students) is just a headcount compensation for those that might go to the first Saturday but not the second.

Assuming there actually is as much interest in this as I think there is, this would also yield "Saturday" instructors eventually that would cover the additional event days.

TrebleShooter - please do ask your sister chime in. Would be great to hear from somebody with other than theoretical ideas.

[funfaler]

I guess I should have been more clear about what I was trying to get at.

All standard Appleseeds, in today's world, are free.   Only non-military, non-LEO, males over the age of 21, who don't dress in period clothing, are not elected officials, and are attending their first Appleseed pay.   Thus, everyone essentially gets in free of charge.   

It is silly to concoct a course which simply carries along with it, the same fee structure, as it would essentially be FREE.   There is little point in the program doing anything different, if the "different" is going to be free.

So with this in mind, it is better for the program to view these new one day events, as just that.   A new product offering.    As such, a separate fee structure applies.    Everyone pays, except children who are with a paying adult.   

Or, just to toss in some thread creep, perhaps scrap the entire fee structure, for  "everyone pays, except children who are with a paying adult" for all events, except a scant few one day events.    Make these "teaser events" to get people some flavor of what Appleseed is, so they will want to come to a full fledged Appleseed course.   

Calling anything new a "split Appleseed", will leave people with the assumption the current fee structure applies, thus is free to nearly everyone, and it does not benefit the program.   

Hope that clarifies what I was trying to say 

[SoulMan]

funfaler, I think it's good that you're already thinking in terms of how to make this great idea a practical reality. But I'm of the opinion that the same fee structure would apply to split weekends as consecutive-day weekend shoots, and whatever changes need to be made overall the the entire fee structure overall is a separate matter.

As it is, you can already sign up for one or both days of a shoot, and people who prefer to attend only on a Sunday can do so. Furthermore, some people already intentionally go to Day one on a given month, then go to Day Two on a Sunday of a subsequent month. So why not offer Day Two on a Saturday for those cannot attend on a Sunday or just prefer not to?  I agree with Inbox485 that it would be beneficial not only for drawing more shooters to the program, but also for building a reliable instructor corps that is less likely to burn out.

The practical reality that is more of a concern to me than the fee structure is to strongly encourage, if not require, that people complete Day One of the program before they can attend a Standalone Saturday Day Two. Currently, there are relatively few shooters who attend on Sunday only, so the problem is relatively minor. But offering Day Two on Saturday would magnify the following issues associated with shooters who attend Day Two without ever going to Day One. Regardless of whether they think they are too advanced to learn the basics or they want to spend more time shooting because they don't yet realize the importance of the history, this would deprive them of hearing the Three Strikes, which is the heart of the program. The Strikes also provide needed context for the Dangerous Old Men and Brave Women on Day Two, so we'd likely find ourselve bogging down Day Two teaching both history and marksmanship from the ground up, rather than just refreshing. Thus, this would basically amount to trying to consolidate both days into one.

Now, don't get me wrong, I think a one-day Appleseed is a viable event, as long as shooters are experienced and the instruction is delivered with conciceness and precision. But one-day shoots should be offered on an exception basis as a special event. In any case, we need to be careful to keep the integrity of Day Two shoots held on Satruday, so that they don't devolve into a rehash of Day One with the intensity arisig from efforts to cram everything in rather than from a focus on refinements and AQT Grind.

[funfaler]

But one-day shoots should be offered on an exception basis as a special event. In any case, we need to be careful to keep the integrity of Day Two shoots held on Satruday, so that they don't devolve into a rehash of Day One with the intensity arisig from efforts to cram everything in rather than from a focus on refinements and AQT Grind.

This is one of the reason I suggested making them different, "special" events.   Call them something totally different than "day two" of an  Appleseed.    It would seem to cut down on confusion, and cut down on the hassles imposed by the fee structure, further, it eliminates the typical view of "Day 1" and "Day 2".

Run standard Appleseeds, as they typically run.   If Joe Shooter can only make Saturday, fine.   If he really wants the AQT grind, then there can events for just such a deal.

The AQT days can be marketed to former Appleseeders as a means to "brush up" their skills.   Another opportunity for their Rifleman's Patch, or as a means for simply getting instruction on any bad habits they may have developed since their last Appleseed.   

Women shoot free at Appleseed Shoots, but the AQT day is something different.   ROCs are good for Appleseed Shoots, but AQT days are something different.  Military/LEO shoot free at Appleseed Shoots, but AQT days are something different.

Heck, even offer different history, give it in a different format, make it a different event.   Make it a 1/2 day event if desired.   A group can grind through a bunch of AQTs in 1/2 day, if desired. 

"Day 2" on Saturday, won't look much different on Eventbrite.   Also, it gets rather wordy and confusing trying to explain what is going on.   However, "AQT Day" is something totally different.   It is not only easier to accommodate internally, but easier to explain externally.   

Again, it is all just a suggestion and brainstorming.   

I just have visions of slim, in a Viking helmet (not of the Minnesota sorts  ) , beating out a Rifleman's cadence on an anvil, dual fisted, hands full of sledge hammer....whatever I can do to see this come to reality is all I really want.   










What is formed on the other side is an American Rifleman.....
   

[floydf]

Obviously this is a "repeat customer" event.   So until there is some sort of fee restructuring within the program, this sort of an event would be a guaranteed money loser for the program.

But such an event could serve to prolong a persons exposure to the Appleseed community and culture, and serve to bring people from several different events together in one additional event.

Let me ask you directly, InBox485, do you think that such an event could be promoted as a "new event" for Appleseed, and could the program charge everyone for this event?   

Such a single day event would be a big win in the DFW market, and I think we would get some good response.

There are a couple of wrinkles:

Is a full Appleseed a pre-req, or just attending Sat? (I would prefer, just attending Sat).

If only attending Sat is needed, then it would be nice to split out the Sat single day program (with one AQT) into a single day format, so it could be offered on Sun (there are people that can not attend Sat).

Fee structure needs to allow volume discounts, IMO.

I think this is a good idea, and would like to schedule some of these for 2013 as soon as the details can be worked out on what they are called.

[InBox485]

I guess I should have been more clear about what I was trying to get at.

All standard Appleseeds, in today's world, are free.   Only non-military, non-LEO, males over the age of 21, who don't dress in period clothing, are not elected officials, and are attending their first Appleseed pay.   Thus, everyone essentially gets in free of charge.   

It is silly to concoct a course which simply carries along with it, the same fee structure, as it would essentially be FREE.   There is little point in the program doing anything different, if the "different" is going to be free.

So with this in mind, it is better for the program to view these new one day events, as just that.   A new product offering.    As such, a separate fee structure applies.    Everyone pays, except children who are with a paying adult.   

Or, just to toss in some thread creep, perhaps scrap the entire fee structure, for  "everyone pays, except children who are with a paying adult" for all events, except a scant few one day events.    Make these "teaser events" to get people some flavor of what Appleseed is, so they will want to come to a full fledged Appleseed course.   

Calling anything new a "split Appleseed", will leave people with the assumption the current fee structure applies, thus is free to nearly everyone, and it does not benefit the program.   

Hope that clarifies what I was trying to say 

I guess then I'm completely missing what the difference is between having a two day event where day 1 is Saturday and day 2 is Sunday, and having a 2 day event where day 1 is Saturday and day 2 is the following Saturday. As it stands, anybody that can make Sundays is free to sign up for just a Sunday. I'm not really talking about an AQT grind or anything like that. I'm actually talking about a genuine "day 2".

If the current fee structure isn't working, that is a separate discussion IMO (unless I'm missing something). I'm just talking about shifting the days to boost headcount.

[InBox485]

funfaler, I think it's good that you're already thinking in terms of how to make this great idea a practical reality. But I'm of the opinion that the same fee structure would apply to split weekends as consecutive-day weekend shoots, and whatever changes need to be made overall the the entire fee structure overall is a separate matter.

As it is, you can already sign up for one or both days of a shoot, and people who prefer to attend only on a Sunday can do so. Furthermore, some people already intentionally go to Day one on a given month, then go to Day Two on a Sunday of a subsequent month. So why not offer Day Two on a Saturday for those cannot attend on a Sunday or just prefer not to?  I agree with Inbox485 that it would be beneficial not only for drawing more shooters to the program, but also for building a reliable instructor corps that is less likely to burn out.

The practical reality that is more of a concern to me than the fee structure is to strongly encourage, if not require, that people complete Day One of the program before they can attend a Standalone Saturday Day Two. Currently, there are relatively few shooters who attend on Sunday only, so the problem is relatively minor. But offering Day Two on Saturday would magnify the following issues associated with shooters who attend Day Two without ever going to Day One. Regardless of whether they think they are too advanced to learn the basics or they want to spend more time shooting because they don't yet realize the importance of the history, this would deprive them of hearing the Three Strikes, which is the heart of the program. The Strikes also provide needed context for the Dangerous Old Men and Brave Women on Day Two, so we'd likely find ourselve bogging down Day Two teaching both history and marksmanship from the ground up, rather than just refreshing. Thus, this would basically amount to trying to consolidate both days into one.

Now, don't get me wrong, I think a one-day Appleseed is a viable event, as long as shooters are experienced and the instruction is delivered with conciceness and precision. But one-day shoots should be offered on an exception basis as a special event. In any case, we need to be careful to keep the integrity of Day Two shoots held on Satruday, so that they don't devolve into a rehash of Day One with the intensity arisig from efforts to cram everything in rather than from a focus on refinements and AQT Grind.

I actually see an opportunity to eliminate people skipping to day 2 without attending day 1. As it stands, the only legitimate reason people would normally skip to day 2 is if they were interested, but simply couldn't attend on a Saturday. If day 1 and day 2 both happen to be on a Saturday, that reason goes away. If you simply required prior attendance before a Saturday day 2 (and preferably the Saturday Day 1 immediately before it), you could exclude anybody trying to skip day 1 because they just wanted to (at least for the Saturdays) and not exclude anybody that just can't attend on Saturday.

[SoulMan]

From my perspective, there are two distinct issues:

1) Saturday scheduling for those who cannot, or prefer not, to attend on a Sunday.

2) The fee structure.

I think issue #1, rather than issue #2 should drive the process.  In other words, work the issue based primarily on the purpose of the program, and let the practical implications about fee structure follow in support to make it fiscally viable.

Now, with a view to Issue #1, three distinct options have been offered:

A) Scheduling Appleseed Day Two (currently only held on Sundays in CA) on a subsequent weekend for people who have previously completed Appleseed Day One.

B) One-Day Appleseeds where the COF for Appleseed Day One and Day Two are combined into a single day.

C) One-Day AQT Grind, a completely new offering where people who have already been to an Appleseed can focus almost exclusively on the AQT with the goal of getting the patch. In a way, this could even be considered an optional "Appleseed Day 3".

I suggest we discuss the merits of each of these options, realizing that one or more of them may be viable and we don't necessarily need to pick only one to offer as an organization, but that each Saturday shoot must clearly identify which of the three options is the focus of that particular event.

The benefits of Option A are that it would make the whole program more attractive to a wider audience of shooters who either cannot make it to a Sunday shoot because of religious or other obligations, or simply prefer not to sped the entire weekend at a range. I suspect that many people who go to Saturday of a 'seed and never make it to Sunday will start showing up for Day 2. And it would help build a larger, reliable instructor corps that won't burn out.

The disadvantages of Option A include that shooters who become focused on Day Two will be deprived of repeated exposure to the Three Strikes, which helps to inculcate the narrative into one's world view. (Remember, primacy recency and repetition are important concepts in teaching.) Another disadvantage is that they also might be less inclined to invite newcomers to Appleseed, because Day Two is not optimal for newcomers, and a major thrust of this program's growth concept is for people to return for another Appleseed and bring friends. On the other hand, there may be other advantages that would offset this, such as if shooters are encouraged to coordinate together on the Forum to go to Day 2 shoots with people they met at Day 2, or other friends who have been to a Day 1 before.

Benefits of Option B are that it is an appropriate special event for targeted groups who are already experienced shooters, so they can get expedited instruction and hear the Three Strikes. This has been done successfully in the past for Law Enforcement organizations and college shooting clubs, for example. I am working on putting together an event like this for the Family Readiness Group for my National Guard unit. This is also a good option for people who have been to an Appleseed in the past and want a refersher and another chance to get the Patch.

Disadvantages are that this must be done on an exception basis as a private event where attendance is limited to a narrow, targeted group.

Benefits of Option C: it could help more people get their patch and become elegible to be an instructor. I supose the only difference between this and going to the range with an Appleseed Shoot Boss and shooting a bunch of AQTs it that it provides the official sanction as an Appleseed event proper for the Rifleman Patch to be awarded. As has been suggested, this event could be an opportunity to offer more history and, depending on the range, more emphasis on advanced instruction and pratice on target detection, wind doping, etc., that we tend to run out of time to address properly by theend of Day Two, although that seems more apprpriate for a RBC or KD event.

Disadvantages I foresee are similar to those I observed with Option A, except moreso. It loses an opportunity to inculcate the Three Strikes, and is not optimal for bringing newbies in. And although it could promote camaraderie among more advanced shooters, there are already several other organizations that offer that for advanced shooters. I like the fact that we currently have instructor-only KD events and I look forward to going to one. But for Appleseed to offer this as a general follow-on to the 2-day shoots would likely come at the expense of the current benefit that comes with making potential instructors get their patch at a traditional COF where they must hear the history and basic instruction again, which is closer to the heart of the program. After all, the best way to learn something inside and out and retain it is to teach it as well as pratice it.

I'd be very interested to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

[InBox485]

From my perspective, there are two distinct issues:

1) Saturday scheduling for those who cannot, or prefer not, to attend on a Sunday.

2) The fee structure.

I think issue #1, rather than issue #2 should drive the process.  In other words, work the issue based primarily on the purpose of the program, and let the practical implications about fee structure follow in support to make it fiscally viable.

Now, with a view to Issue #1, three distinct options have been offered:

A) Scheduling Appleseed Day Two (currently only held on Sundays in CA) on a subsequent weekend for people who have previously completed Appleseed Day One.

B) One-Day Appleseeds where the COF for Appleseed Day One and Day Two are combined into a single day.

C) One-Day AQT Grind, a completely new offering where people who have already been to an Appleseed can focus almost exclusively on the AQT with the goal of getting the patch. In a way, this could even be considered an optional "Appleseed Day 3".

I suggest we discuss the merits of each of these options, realizing that one or more of them may be viable and we don't necessarily need to pick only one to offer as an organization, but that each Saturday shoot must clearly identify which of the three options is the focus of that particular event.

The benefits of Option A are that it would make the whole program more attractive to a wider audience of shooters who either cannot make it to a Sunday shoot because of religious or other obligations, or simply prefer not to sped the entire weekend at a range. I suspect that many people who go to Saturday of a 'seed and never make it to Sunday will start showing up for Day 2. And it would help build a larger, reliable instructor corps that won't burn out.

The disadvantages of Option A include that shooters who become focused on Day Two will be deprived of repeated exposure to the Three Strikes, which helps to inculcate the narrative into one's world view. (Remember, primacy recency and repetition are important concepts in teaching.) Another disadvantage is that they also might be less inclined to invite newcomers to Appleseed, because Day Two is not optimal for newcomers, and a major thrust of this program's growth concept is for people to return for another Appleseed and bring friends. On the other hand, there may be other advantages that would offset this, such as if shooters are encouraged to coordinate together on the Forum to go to Day 2 shoots with people they met at Day 2, or other friends who have been to a Day 1 before.

I have nothing against options B and C, but I would put the most value on option A. To date, I've made it out to one and a half Saturdays. The first was my first time actually learning marksmanship beyond what is taught in handgun shooting. The second was going great despite 3" of 50 degree water, pouring rain and wind, but the canopies and targets ended up inverted around 10am and the remainder of the course was continued in a local restaurant (obviously no AQT was done). I plan to make it to one or more Saturdays, and I might make it to a full two day course by year's end, but what I couldn't do is get involved on an ongoing basis on Sundays and my understanding is that is kind of the point. If there were split Saturday courses, that is something I could get involved in.

As far as the disadvantages to Option A, I think it would be reasonable to have a push for anybody signing up for Day 2 to have attended Day 1 the previous Saturday. Having been to 1.5 Saturdays, I'm not sure how anybody that has been to a Day 1 could regard it as a waste of time.

[SoulMan]

Another consideration for holding Day 2 on a subsequent Saturday, is the need for a standard course of fire and standard instruction.

An advantage of traditional, 2-day consecutive shoots is that most Sunday shooters were there Saturday and the Instructors already know them and have a game plan how to help them progress. With Day 2 on a subsequent Saturday, we'd almost certainly have a significant number of the people signing up for Day Two on a Saturday other than the very next Saturday, and Day 1 and Day 2 would be less likely to be staffed by the same crew of instructors. Thus the instructors would not enter Day 2 having rapport with each shooter, familiarity with the respective shooters' instructional needs.

I think this issue could quickly be overcome, and the shooter may actually benefit from a fresh set of eyes on their form and their targets. However, a greater concern is the reality that no two shoots are the same, and Shoot Bosses are known to adjust the course of fire for each shoot based on the needs and progress of the particular set of shooters present. If you have a crop of shooters on a Saturday Day 2 who did not go to the same Day 1, instruction could end up being a least common denominator proposition.

Nevertheless, I think the value gained by attracting a wider audience of shooters (and potential instructors) far outweighs these concerns and the others previously raised, so I am in favor of offering Day 2 on a Saturday for shooters who have completed Day 1.

The real challenge to implementing Day 2 on a Saturday remains is to secure ranges in addition to the reservations we already are securing for 2-day shoots.

Until then, there's nothing to stop you from going to another Saturday Day 1, continuing to persist in practicing sound fundamentals and shooting your Rifleman score by the end of Day 1. After all, the Rfleman score should not be a fluke but a consistently maintained skill level. And if you're already well familiar with the instruction and course of fire, the next step is to begin helping the instructors by volunteering as an RSO and a demonstrator of the shooting positions. Then once you shoot your score you're already ahead of the game in becoming an IIT.

[bob 210]

I guess the issue I seem to be missing is that anybody can come to a Saturday only and then come to a Sunday only on a different weekend. We have enough events here in CA all over the state that doing what I have outlined above would be a no brainer if you really needed to. Now the difficulty in doing this as an Appleseed initiated split event would create a lot of headache for administration to keep track of attendance and double check, just to make it more convenient for folks to attend on seperate weekends when they can do that already!?!? If that is what you need to do....go ahead. As far as Instructors are concerned, it is hard enough nowadays to get instructors to show up for two consecutive days at an event, let alone showing up for two consecutive weekends. I think this does not need to be looked at too much more. Check your local events and just show up when it is convenient for you....see you at the range!

[InBox485]

I guess the issue I seem to be missing is that anybody can come to a Saturday only and then come to a Sunday only on a different weekend. We have enough events here in CA all over the state that doing what I have outlined above would be a no brainer if you really needed to. Now the difficulty in doing this as an Appleseed initiated split event would create a lot of headache for administration to keep track of attendance and double check, just to make it more convenient for folks to attend on seperate weekends when they can do that already!?!? If that is what you need to do....go ahead. As far as Instructors are concerned, it is hard enough nowadays to get instructors to show up for two consecutive days at an event, let alone showing up for two consecutive weekends. I think this does not need to be looked at too much more. Check your local events and just show up when it is convenient for you....see you at the range!

The issue isn't not being able to attend consecutive days, but rather Sundays in general. I guess the question is if there is enough interest in split Saturdays that it would yield the instructors that would happily show up for consecutive Saturdays.

[SoulMan]

InBox485, I am definitely receptive to your point. If I understand you correctly, you're contending that

1) there's a substantial of potential shooters who are not getting the ful Appleseed experience because Day Two is always Sunday, and

2) a significant number of potential instructors who simply cannot commit to an organization that expects a significant amount of participation in Sundays, and furthermore are also far more likely to get their patch and become instructors if they could go to Day 2 on a Saturday, rather than repeating Day 1 one or more times.

Now, whether going to Day Two on a Sunday is morally objectionble, or practicaly unfeasible for them is their private business, but if there's really enough of them to support adding Saturday Day Two on the calendar, I'm all for it.

On one hand, in theory folks should be able to learn sufficient skills and drills on Day 1 in order to dry pratice a few days a week for a month, then get their patch on Day 1 of a subsequent Appleseed. And that's definitely a viable option that I encourage. But if that's really the expectation, why do we even have Day 2? Clearly, there is tremendous benefit to Day 2, or we wouldn't offer it. Thus, I am in favor of offering Day 2 on a Saturday to those who, for whatever reason, cannot attend on a Sunday.

However, this still begs the following questions:

1) Just how many shooters are YOU prepared to bring to the range for a Saturday Day 2?

2) Just how many potential Orange Hats are you developing at this time whose primary objection is the commitment to working shoots Sundays, who are likely to give up two Saturdays a month, at least four times a year?

If you can provide solid answers to this, I think we'll be a lot closer to justifying it ... as long as we can also reserve the range.

[bob 210]

And of coarse there is the ultimate difficulty of range availability. Currently we have two ranges available in the San Diego area. The Dulzura facility allowed us 3 Appleseed events in 2012. Rainbow allowed us 6 events in 2012. These wonderful facilities are booked pretty solid due to existing club events. I would be unwilling to give up one of our precious dates for a 2-day eveny in order to put on a 1-day event and the ability to schedule consecutive weekends would be impossible.

InBox485, I am definitely receptive to your point. If I understand you correctly, you're contending that

1) there's a substantial of potential shooters who are not getting the ful Appleseed experience because Day Two is always Sunday, and

2) a significant number of potential instructors who simply cannot commit to an organization that expects a significant amount of participation in Sundays, and furthermore are also far more likely to get their patch and become instructors if they could go to Day 2 on a Saturday, rather than repeating Day 1 one or more times.

Now, whether going to Day Two on a Sunday is morally objectionble, or practicaly unfeasible for them is their private business, but if there's really enough of them to support adding Saturday Day Two on the calendar, I'm all for it.

On one hand, in theory folks should be able to learn sufficient skills and drills on Day 1 in order to dry pratice a few days a week for a month, then get their patch on Day 1 of a subsequent Appleseed. And that's definitely a viable option that I encourage. But if that's really the expectation, why do we even have Day 2? Clearly, there is tremendous benefit to Day 2, or we wouldn't offer it. Thus, I am in favor of offering Day 2 on a Saturday to those who, for whatever reason, cannot attend on a Sunday.

However, this still begs the following questions:

1) Just how many shooters are YOU prepared to bring to the range for a Saturday Day 2?

2) Just how many potential Orange Hats are you developing at this time whose primary objection is the commitment to working shoots Sundays, who are likely to give up two Saturdays a month, at least four times a year?

If you can provide solid answers to this, I think we'll be a lot closer to justifying it ... as long as we can also reserve the range.

[SoulMan]

OK, so it seems clear, the main impediment to a Saturday Day 2 event, or an Saturday AQT Grind, is lack of range availability.

Thus, if the lack of Saturday Day 2 is an (not "the") impediment to developing the instructor corps it would seem that range availability is an (not "the") impediment to building the instructor corps.

Would an indoor range be a good place to do a Saturday Day 2? or perhaps to do an AQT Grind event? Obviously, there would be significant limitations, potentially to caliber, etc., and we'd need coordination with the range management to accept our safety measures to permit sitting and prone positions. We wouldn't necessarily need the whole range, just enough consecutive lanes for the people who attend. And the line boss could watch people's gear while the instruction happens outside the sound barrier. I think we could make it work.

Another option is for someone who is motivated to make a Saturday Day 2 event happen (I'm thinking Inbox485) to round up a handful of people to go to Bee Canyon shooting area and get there early enough to secure one of the canyons.

A third possibility could be if someone in this program or their family has a private range on their own land for a small event once in a while. I'm not that familiar with range development regulations or CA laws for shooting on private property, but I'm willing to do some research.

Now, I realize that if we work to bring Saturday-only shooters in to the program as instructors, they will naturally be Saturday-only instructors. However, Saturday attendance already outpaces Sunday considerably in these parts, and I suspect this is where more instructor coverage is needed. Is this correct? I think if we had more consistent coverage on Saturdays, it would alleviate pressure on the current instructor corps, who could then be called upon to work more Sundays than Saturdays.  I, for one, would be glad to work more shoots on Sundays if I could have at least one day of the week open to rest and recreate with my family.

In addition, more instructors means more 7th Stepping, and even if they only bring their friends to Day One, those folks will hear the Strikes.

It also stands to reason that many "Saturday-only" instructors would work a Sunday from time to time when needed, but that the consistent Sunday requirement would result in a smaller proportion of them becoming Shoot Bosses, unless they have the motivation to develop ranges to accommodate a growing Saturday crowd.

[InBox485]

OK, so it seems clear, the main impediment to a Saturday Day 2 event, or an Saturday AQT Grind, is lack of range availability.

Thus, if the lack of Saturday Day 2 is an (not "the") impediment to developing the instructor corps it would seem that range availability is an (not "the") impediment to building the instructor corps.

Would an indoor range be a good place to do a Saturday Day 2? or perhaps to do an AQT Grind event? Obviously, there would be significant limitations, potentially to caliber, etc., and we'd need coordination with the range management to accept our safety measures to permit sitting and prone positions. We wouldn't necessarily need the whole range, just enough consecutive lanes for the people who attend. And the line boss could watch people's gear while the instruction happens outside the sound barrier. I think we could make it work.

I'm not familiar with the range issues with each of the ranges. I know Azuza is simply a matter of reserving a range and paying the deposit before another group does, but that is the only range I've done a reserved event at.

Another option is for someone who is motivated to make a Saturday Day 2 event happen (I'm thinking Inbox485) to round up a handful of people to go to Bee Canyon shooting area and get there early enough to secure one of the canyons.

If an open, non commercial shooting area is acceptable, bee canyon would be fine. I live in Hemet which means I could easily be there at 6:30am and squat on a canyon. If this is an option, I know a bunch of Saturday only shooters that I've been meaning to get together to do a Day 1 anyway (would probably be an upcoming Corona event). Most of them would be Hemet local so a Day 2 on a following Saturday is something a lot of them would welcome. One of them also has a shooting area somewhere where they have gone before. I'll have to see if that would be a better alternative.

A third possibility could be if someone in this program or their family has a private range on their own land for a small event once in a while. I'm not that familiar with range development regulations or CA laws for shooting on private property, but I'm willing to do some research.

Private ranges are hard to come by. Unless they are indoor, they have to be either county approved or in an open shooting portion of the county. For this area, that would be most likely found in the East side of Riverside County (out past Soboba, and outside any city limits).

Now, I realize that if we work to bring Saturday-only shooters in to the program as instructors, they will naturally be Saturday-only instructors. However, Saturday attendance already outpaces Sunday considerably in these parts, and I suspect this is where more instructor coverage is needed. Is this correct? I think if we had more consistent coverage on Saturdays, it would alleviate pressure on the current instructor corps, who could then be called upon to work more Sundays than Saturdays.  I, for one, would be glad to work more shoots on Sundays if I could have at least one day of the week open to rest and recreate with my family.

In addition, more instructors means more 7th Stepping, and even if they only bring their friends to Day One, those folks will hear the Strikes.

It also stands to reason that many "Saturday-only" instructors would work a Sunday from time to time when needed, but that the consistent Sunday requirement would result in a smaller proportion of them becoming Shoot Bosses, unless they have the motivation to develop ranges to accommodate a growing Saturday crowd.

This above perfectly summarizes what I see as the give/take, win/win for trying this out.

[bob 210]

There is no such thing as a "Saturday Only Instructor" If you wish to discuss this further, I suggest you giveme a call or send me a pm. We do not wish to discuss organization policies on a public forum. Thanx.

OK, so it seems clear, the main impediment to a Saturday Day 2 event, or an Saturday AQT Grind, is lack of range availability.

Thus, if the lack of Saturday Day 2 is an (not "the") impediment to developing the instructor corps it would seem that range availability is an (not "the") impediment to building the instructor corps.

Would an indoor range be a good place to do a Saturday Day 2? or perhaps to do an AQT Grind event? Obviously, there would be significant limitations, potentially to caliber, etc., and we'd need coordination with the range management to accept our safety measures to permit sitting and prone positions. We wouldn't necessarily need the whole range, just enough consecutive lanes for the people who attend. And the line boss could watch people's gear while the instruction happens outside the sound barrier. I think we could make it work.

I'm not familiar with the range issues with each of the ranges. I know Azuza is simply a matter of reserving a range and paying the deposit before another group does, but that is the only range I've done a reserved event at.

Another option is for someone who is motivated to make a Saturday Day 2 event happen (I'm thinking Inbox485) to round up a handful of people to go to Bee Canyon shooting area and get there early enough to secure one of the canyons.

If an open, non commercial shooting area is acceptable, bee canyon would be fine. I live in Hemet which means I could easily be there at 6:30am and squat on a canyon. If this is an option, I know a bunch of Saturday only shooters that I've been meaning to get together to do a Day 1 anyway (would probably be an upcoming Corona event). Most of them would be Hemet local so a Day 2 on a following Saturday is something a lot of them would welcome. One of them also has a shooting area somewhere where they have gone before. I'll have to see if that would be a better alternative.

A third possibility could be if someone in this program or their family has a private range on their own land for a small event once in a while. I'm not that familiar with range development regulations or CA laws for shooting on private property, but I'm willing to do some research.

Private ranges are hard to come by. Unless they are indoor, they have to be either county approved or in an open shooting portion of the county. For this area, that would be most likely found in the East side of Riverside County (out past Soboba, and outside any city limits).

Now, I realize that if we work to bring Saturday-only shooters in to the program as instructors, they will naturally be Saturday-only instructors. However, Saturday attendance already outpaces Sunday considerably in these parts, and I suspect this is where more instructor coverage is needed. Is this correct? I think if we had more consistent coverage on Saturdays, it would alleviate pressure on the current instructor corps, who could then be called upon to work more Sundays than Saturdays.  I, for one, would be glad to work more shoots on Sundays if I could have at least one day of the week open to rest and recreate with my family.

In addition, more instructors means more 7th Stepping, and even if they only bring their friends to Day One, those folks will hear the Strikes.

It also stands to reason that many "Saturday-only" instructors would work a Sunday from time to time when needed, but that the consistent Sunday requirement would result in a smaller proportion of them becoming Shoot Bosses, unless they have the motivation to develop ranges to accommodate a growing Saturday crowd.

This above perfectly summarizes what I see as the give/take, win/win for trying this out.