new patch

[PaxxAZ]

BAKEDAPPLESEED

Baked AS must be shot on 4/20 at 4:20.  Stoners will get it.  LOL.

Sadly, on this one I personally would oppose until laws change and 4/19 is too important to us. But if not for that, I see no reason why not.

You are a genius. Design the patch and I will chop peppers. 

Been called worse, and sadly I'll have to try it before making the patches, to see if it was insanity or not. Being that I am in AZ, I'll have to try it in cooler climes as dehydration is more of a concern. However, I have some silly ideas for the Patch, and connections for the making of them. I'd even pony up the money to have some made. First comes a reality check...I can take it, just not sure if 5 min, and safety can go together. Muzzle control is paramount.

Two Wolves: Cheezie...that is a legitimate risk, and I think the First Patch should be "The Rifleman" patch.
New people are a major concern for me (sadly been occupying more and more of my waking hours to the chagrin of the people who enjoy my company). This is more of a keeping the people we do have coming and keeping it in their head. When people come to an Appleseed they drink from the fire-hose but volunteering might not be up their thing, life is busy. But they still find it a good time.
What do we have for the people who have Rifleman with a .22, then a center-fire, iron sights, optics, sling-less, AK47, bolt action...they heard the strikes, agree in principle, don't want to instruct.

I still like Winterseed and Ladyseed, they have their places and needs. So, I would like people who come and Re-qualify to choose something of the flavor of the place is all. Rekindle the spirit so to say.

So I am "evolving" in my thoughts. I guess we need to think on the approach, but at the same time keep the ideas coming. I will work on the habanero Patch, but nothing till I test it and at least score sharpshooter, I want to know that Muzzle control is possible, don't want a shooter abandoning all safety for a drink of lemon-aid.

I'll also confer with my state coordinator to see if it is acceptable or not, as he is my contact to national.

[K98Al]

The RIFLEMAN challenge - remember that oldie but goodie? 210 or better with a RACK GRADE rifle and BALL AMMO. (from the Shotgun News) That got me and my son to AS a few years back....now most of the shoots are .22 LR, very few rack grade surplus rifles, seems the whole ball game is different. Shooters keep bringing "special" rifles, give'em a "special" patch ' cause they didn't get to shoot with the A/C on.

[Patent guy]

One issue is the Association's ability to maintain control of the Association's intellectual property, including trademarks.
The "Rifleman" patch is, among other things, a registered trademark which demonstrates that the RWVA is the source of very fine instructional services.
The RWVA controls the quality of those services and controls the dissemination of those (much valued) patches.
This is why the national Association has to be involved.
As a native Floridian, I can see the rationale for a "Hotseed" (or similar) patch which emphasizes seasonal difficulty.
This is something which can be done, but the patches must be approved by and disseminated through the national organization.
I can confirm that the "Winterseed" patches come solely from the RWVA in our shoot boxes.

[Fred]

This is more of a keeping the people we do have coming and keeping it in their head. When people come to an Appleseed they drink from the fire-hose but volunteering might not be up their thing, life is busy. But they still find it a good time.

     This is really the core of what we should be concerned about, because if enough Americans feel this way - if they believe only that "Appleseed is a good time" - if they hear the AS message, but decline to get off the couch - life is too "busy", too much to do, etc - then we will find that the Great Question - "Are there enough Americans willing to get off the couch to save our Liberty?" will be answered - in the negative - and we can all go home and watch TV.

    While I'm not against more patches, there are priorities, and the central priority of this program right now (and for the foreseeable future) should be to be "laser-focused" on 1) filling those slots on the firing line and 2) recruiting/motivating our fellow Americans to join with us in the great project which is Project Appleseed.

     We need to do the first - fill the slots - to do the second - reach as many Americans as possible with the need to "get off the *&^% couch" before it's too late!

     More patches is great! But filling more slots on the firing line is even greater!

     How about a "Victory" patch - once we win the battle?

     Seems to me, if we could make more progress filling those lines, we could start contemplating its design...

[Two Wolves]

Look, bottom line is that we have to get more people involved. This is a hard job in and of it's self. If we can entertain and enlighten the participants to point where they want to return and they want to share this experience with others then the battle will be easier to win.

As for patches, being that the Rifleman Patch is trademarked for RWVA, I think that should be the coveted patch. IMO Having said that, I think it would be possible to have patches for returning shooters if that's the bait we need.

For example we could have rockers that say----220---230---240---250

If after earning your Rifleman patch you came back and shot a score of 232, you could earn (or purchase ) a 230 patch, designating you as capable of 230 or higher. There should be a full distance rocker. There should be an APPLECORE rocker.

There could be an EXTREME SEED rocker for enduring harsh environments.

As far as worrying that some folks are just to busy to volunteer or get involved with Appleseed, I say HOGWASH. If they took the time to come to an Appleseed then if we do our job as intended, those folks can and will find the time to--- if nothing else--ever-- pass out some trifolds for us or put them in a place where others will find them. We have to use these resources! Offer and encourage EVERYONE to take 5 trifolds and pass them on.

BTW, maybe there could be chevron or stripe patches that have some significant value. Just thinking.

My America, my Appleseed my mission~Two Wolves

It's a personal thing.

[TN_Dadx5]

Why don't we go back to the original Rifleman patch and come up with several rectangular "rockers" to add under it? That might give an incentive to re-qualify.  It would definitely solve the issue of different folks wanting different type of RM patches and the associated problems.

I can see the arm of my shooting jacket...OD green RM patch...blue winterseed rocker...black&red FL saunaseed...tan&orange&desertblue Sandstormseed...pink&purple Ladyseed ...KDseed (with the MilDot recticle)...stickybrown (think Como, MS) Mudseed...red&green BakedAppleseed...cheddar-colored Cheeseseed ...really, I could go on all day...

[DeadEyeRed]

It boils down to whatever gets people to come out! I agree with the new patch and think smoakingun should be supported by all of us. When I went to my first AS, I can tell you, i was dragged there kicking and screaming. I had better things to do than lay  IN 100 DEGREE HEAT with abunch of people I had never met. that was until I got there! I met those people and found the desire to be under this BEAutiful orange hat. I went to about 8 of these until i recieved my patch. i now drag any one i can find with me...so they can discover what I did. It would be nice to recognize those who make a simular sacrifice.

[Miller]

I earned a Rifleman patch.
It's currently affixed over the pocket of my shooting jacket.
I've got a few other patches on there, name tape, RWVA oval, April 19th rocker, but all I or anyone else needs to know is that I am a Rifleman. 
Conditions do not matter.
A Rifleman adapts and overcomes.
Do I want a Winterseed patch?  Sure. 
Would I go for a "swelterseed" or what ever?  Probably.
Not sure where I'd put'em though.  There are only a couple of more patches I want for my coat.
Instructor rocker
Boot Camp rocker
Perhaps even a Shoot Boss rocker.
And on the back I've considered adding a couple in tribute to my grandfathers for their service.  8th Armored and 14th Armored.

I'm proud of my patch.
But I only need one Rifleman patch as I'm only one Rifleman.

I'm more proud of my orange hat which if I ever get around to it will have a few dates inked on the bill.  The date I qualified and took a hat, the date I passed PC1, PC2, PC3(TBA), and so on.  And most importantly the date I "retire" the orange and take a red.

Those hats denote many Riflemen.
Those I've helped forge.

Just my 2¢

[smoakingun]

Well, I can't speak for the rest of the country, but here in Fl. business seems to be booming! We have already added two new venues this year. We have added 8 to 10 IIT's in the last 6 months. We have done at least one libraryseed this year, and are working on more. We are working on another military shoot. We work gun shows and pass out tri folds and flyers by the case. I do not believe we have shirked our duties here in Fl. There seems to be a conception here that a new patch is for collecting or re-qualifing. That is not the intent, nor is it the way I have seen appleseed work. A shooter is rewarded a patch for acomplishing what a relatively few citizens have. So why is it a negative to recognize those who did it when it was hard?
Fred mentioned a laser-like focus, but if appleseed has taught me anything it is that in order to get stuff done, we have to be able to do many things, often at the same time.
I think too that I should mention that I do not intend the organization to fund this patch, it will come out of my pocket.

[douglas34474]

I know the mission should be everything, but IMHO, what ever it takes to get people on the line. If that's a patch for those that fired as they have for those that froze, so be it.

[Sly223]

O.K. ready or not Here I post!
New Patches are all fine and well,
for the shooters who do not have a patch.
As for the instructors, you have your patch is that not good enough?
Instructors, I reiterate,you have your patch this would not be for you anyway!
One patch as earned,no matter the conditions.

[TomM1Thumb]

This may stir up things a little, But be it a Patch or a Rocker it is ALL the same. It is Just a piece of Cloth!
But it is an Achievement Award!

The idea is to GET the New and Returning Student to the LINE!

So They can learn to use any Rifle effectively!
So that They can learn to Honor Our Forefather's!
So They can learn Why the Bill of Rights is So Important!
Then and Only then can We the People! can start baling faster!   

This is a Patch, Rocker, Rifle, or Target, There are Many like it, But this one is Mine!

[smoakingun]

Sly223 hit it on the head. Patches are for the student who cuts the score the first time. I am not looking to change my patch, I earned my patch in a wind and rain storm when it was 40 degrees outside. My patch is my mark to the appleseed community that I am part of the family. A special patch says no less. It does indicate that the shooter did it under a certain set of conditions in a certain place. It is no different than a shell back card(navy thing) or a challenge coin(army thing) these things are earned and show the shooter persevered when others wouldn't.  When the heat and humidity are high, we don't issue tons of patches, I just think I should do something to recognize those who do. This patch is not intended to be a draw to appleseed. It is not an advertising gimmic. This patch will not fill the lines. It is just a symbol,

[TruTenacity]

If getting people to grasp then own their heritage to the point they get off the couch and stay off is really the thrust of what AS is all about and the rifle marksmanship is just the hook to get them to an event then why is there such an emphasis on patches?

[Two Wolves]

Let's face the truth. If we need more patches to bring new and old shooters to the program-----we've FAILED!

Another truth---- None of us got involved in this program by the lure of another patch.

The shooting part of an Appleseed is designed around teaching the student how to take charge of his mind and his body. Mostly his mind. There is an awakening that the student has as he learns these skills.

It was the awakening of my mind, my soul, my spirit that inspired me to get involved in Appleseed. The desire to help others have this epiphany is what feeds my soul.

The hook needs not to be about another patch. If it is, you'll soon run out of patches.

~Two Wolves

[douglas34474]

Then why the Winterseed patch?

[smoakingun]

Tru tenacity, I don't know that when I suggested a new patch there would be so much disagreement. It does seem to me that some folks are not reading what I am saying about the patch. It has nothing to do with filling the lines. Nothing to do with patch collecting. The patch is for new shooters who shoot score under a specific set of circumstances. My goal is to recognize those who persevere and overcome those circumstances. Appleseed is no longer the hairy legged man club it was in the beginning. Gone are the days of having primarily surplus centerfires and ball ammo on the line. Here are the days of kids and single moms. A lot of people show up Saturday and do not return on Sunday because of the hbat. This patch is for those who do

[Fred]

Then why the Winterseed patch?

    About Year 3 of the program we suddenly realized that, for practical purposes, the AS sched went "dead" in Dec, Jan, Feb and, often - March.

    There were almost no AS scheduled in those months - and the "Appleseed Year" started, not in Jan, but in late March (sometimes) or early April (more often).

    We also realized that AS will not be successful working only two-thirds of the year (sometimes, three-fourths). We can't afford to throw away any part of the year, to write it off, to sit back and relax - if we are going to be successful.

    The WinterSeed Patch was an effort to encourage more AS in the traditional "winter" months.

    While I don't have any stats, I have a gut feeling the patch by itself was not enough to do what we hoped it would do. It will take the dedicated efforts of State Coordinators, Shoot Bosses, and every other volunteer to seize opportunities to do more AS in the months where ranges usually have less use and are more open to AS events.

    I look on the WinterSeed Patch as a one-time deal. We can do a "SummerSeed Patch", which then takes us down a road we may not want to go down, because there will be demands for a "foul weather" RB, a "rain" RB, a "desert" RB, a "tornado" RB, etc etc.

     And every one of these demands will be made by someone who will not take "No" for an answer, and everyone of them will generate post after post, page after page - volunteer time which would be better spent on "filling the lines".

    Then, there will be demands for "senior" RBs (ever see an 80-yr old try to do transitions - he's got a lot of grit - shouldn't we recognize that, with a special patch?), "handicapped" RBs (surely they face and persist with issues the rest of us do not face, right? 'Extra effort' deserves extra recognition, right?).

    What about a "family" RB? Shouldn't a family which is 100% riflemen be awarded a special badge? I don't know, but at some point I suggest even the most dedicated patch-collector will cry, "Enough!" And we hand our critics yet another tool to beat us with - "Those Appleseeders? Huh! Just a bunch of patch collectors!"

    I suggest we stay focused on the absolutely critical task of filling all those empty slots on the firing lines - and adding more AS events to our calendar - the real work in the program.

[yellowhousejake]

If we must use a new patch to coax them back to the line, I think maybe they didn't get the message the first visit. Possibly we need to put as much concern and thought into our benedictions as we have patches.

YHJ

[Two Wolves]

Speaking of benedictions I wish it were possible to read the benedictions of others. I know that many of you are well versed and can speak well and I believe reading these would help me and others in our search for words.
~Two Wolves

[Edheler]

Oh, I am thinking about something you might like. One of the unimplemented buttons on the fledgling Appleseed iOS app is labeled "Podcasts." Almost all of us are carrying around full-featured video recorders nowadays. Of course it should be something available on the web site as well and used for everything from strikes to DOM to presentations. One thing I have learned traveling around so far is that everyone does it differently and some peoples presentations make more sense to some people than others. We should be sharing and learning from all of the other instructors as much as we can. If someone wants more patches I would suggest monthly (voted?) awards for best presentations.

Speaking of benedictions I wish it were possible to read the benedictions of others. I know that many of you are well versed and can speak well and I believe reading these would help me and others in our search for words.
~Two Wolves

[Johnnyappleseed]

Speaking of benedictions I wish it were possible to read the benedictions of others. I know that many of you are well versed and can speak well and I believe reading these would help me and others in our search for words.
~Two Wolves

Mine sure could use improvment . thanx for the suggestion 2 wolves --Semper fidelis Sir

[Johnnyappleseed]

Speaking of benedictions I wish it were possible to read the benedictions of others. I know that many of you are well versed and can speak well and I believe reading these would help me and others in our search for words.
~Two Wolves

[dragit]

1. Take winterseed patch
2. Turn upside down
3. Spray paint red
4. Now icicles are flames

Problem solved. 

The patch I have is the patch I received when I shot a rifleman's score, it is OD, it is in my drawer (OK, OK me DESK drawer), I do not need another. 

[Miller]

The patch I have is the patch I received when I shot a rifleman's score, it is OD, it is in my drawer, I do not need another.

This.


Although you might consider wearing it....

[smoakingun]

Maybe I just see things too differently. In the navy, I wore a crow on my sleeve, a dog bowl on my head and dungarees to work. Every sailor was my shipmate, but on the ball cap hanging above my bench, and therocker on the sleeve of my dress uniforms was the name of my ship. When in port somewhere, any sailor would lend a hand, but if that sailor wore the same rocker, served on the same crew, the bond was tighter. You go the extra mile when your lives truely depend on one another. That may be another reason I have persued the patch. To give folks that feeling that they are now part of something bigger. A generic rifleman patch is fine, but the organization is impersonal, maybe even etherial, but a patch unique to your ship indicates something closer.
If fred says no then I will take the no, it is his show afterall. I am not one to argue with the folks in charge.

[Two Wolves]

I reckon if I had a generic riflemans patch  I would put it in dragit's drawers too. 

Sorry Tommy, just couldn't resist ~Two Wolves

[Johnnyappleseed]

many sportsmans clubs have button awards ,theses awards are pins and maybe 3/8 " diameter .

i have seen several sportsman take great pride in being awarded a button for the biggest fish or for drilling an animal of a certain size whatever . Nice thing about buttons is they take up little space .

Possibly buttons could be awarded a in place of a patch and individual states  or even events could request from national the authority to issue buttons . Buttons could worn on the standard RM patch .
not sure who could make buttons for AS , but it may be an alternative to a patch .

[Roland]

If we must use a new patch to coax them back to the line, I think maybe they didn't get the message the first visit. Possibly we need to put as much concern and thought into our benedictions as we have patches.

YHJ

I think YHJ nailed it. Period. But, the fact remains that there are people who are simply there to shoot. Maybe if we can give them more patches, they'll keep coming back, and each time they come back, we get another chance to impress upon them the situation.

[scuzzy]

The patch I have is the patch I received when I shot a rifleman's score, it is OD, it is in my drawer, I do not need another.

I'm not gonna touch that one with a ten foot pole. 

I got one of the purple patches. Never did put it on my jacket. I couldn't ever decide which jacket to put it on. So it's here on the shelf next to my computer. I know I got it and I probably set an Appleseed record for the number of shoots it took me to get it. I'm right at 210 and I played heck to break that. So I'm proud of it.