Let's quit insulting Mother Bathrick

[DieslPwrd]

This is written with all due respect to the Instructors, almost always women, who've told the Mother Bathrick story at countless shoots.    This post is meant to shed light on our 21st century interpretation of the story.  I wasn't sure what forum chapter is the best place to post this, so maybe some of my NM buds will make a (non-sarcastic please) suggestion about moving it.  And maybe it's just me being like this:  but here goes--

I have enjoyed dandelion greens in my warm-weather, almost-daily smoothies for a couple years.  They're GOOD STUFF. My granddad used to make the BEST dandelion wine.  So I've been a tad bothered that Ms. Bathrick is painted as "so destitute she could do nothing else but pick dandelions," knowing that there are many excellent uses for this nutritional plant.  Today a friend sent a link that will help describe this point far better than I can:
http://www.themorristribe.com/2012/04/12/8-ways-to-eat-and-enjoy-dandelion/

My point is, why don't we (females who are telling most DD stories) describe Bathrick's actions in the context of how dandelions were really used when people didn't get all their nutrition from the grocery store?  It's a minor point, but as we help shooters imagine life in 1775, I feel it won't hurt to be more accurate in our storytelling. 

[wcmartin1]

You go, Girl!

I feel you. 

[NorCal22Gal]

I just say she was a poor woman picking greens to go with her supper....


NorCal22Gal

[Foppish Dandy]

As a note, back in the the 18th century, dandelions were typically used as medicine or herbal remedy... not so much as a side-salad. I've read some articles that suggest that Mother Batherick would've likely been gathering dandelions in order to make a medicinal tonic.

Boston1775 gives an interesting write-up of their research into Mother Batherick:
http://boston1775.blogspot.com/2010/06/old-woman-called-mother-barberick.html

[DieslPwrd]

Boston1775 gives an interesting write-up of their research into Mother Batherick:
http://boston1775.blogspot.com/2010/06/old-woman-called-mother-barberick.html

Wow, Foppish, this is some good historical research here! I found myself reading on about the controversy over the details of the Hezekiah Wyman story.  Really interesting resource, thank you.

[Foppish Dandy]

Oh... Don't even get me started on his Hezekiah Wyman research. I spent a good portion of a day at work a while back reading all the articles and getting bummed out and excited back and forth. Basically it comes down to the fact that there was an older dude named Hezekiah Wyman who owned a white mare and a gun. That's all we know from the "facts".

However... whether or not the exact details are 100% perfect, does that change the lessons we can learn from the story? I don't believe so. It's how we relate to these stories and tie in what we've been teaching throughout the weekend that makes them powerful. Otherwise they're just some cool tales about a few tough old folks.

Hezekiah's tale can teach us about marksmanship, self-reliance, adapting, situational awareness, patience, persistence... all these qualities of a Rifleman.

... not to totally steer this thread away from Mother Batherick or anything. Sorry! I'm finding that I tend to wax philosophical since this last Patriot's Day shoot.

[Rocket Man]

Wyman's story is slightly more solid than that.  We do have some evidence that he accompanied David Lamson, and we also have some written reports from junior Lobsterback officers that they suffered constant and effective harassing fire from a few irregulars on horseback.  But like everything else in history, there's room for some doubt.  Having looked into it and argued with many another enthusiast, I consider the Hezekiah Wyman legend to be not fully substantiated, but definitely plausible.

These kinds of historical questions can be fun...  For instance, I have a theory about who actually fired the first shot at Lexington, and why.  There's several good candidates, but I've settled on a favorite.  This might be good material for another thread.

Dandelion greens are plenty tasty, though.  See 'em in fancy restaurants and health food stores, not to mention fields...  Ruth Batherick was simply ahead of her time!

[NhLibertas]

I am in agreement that we should be mindful not to state items as facts if they are poorly documented, and I have certainly heard others present things that are patently untrue.

I do think however, that we have a unique goal in Appleseed, and that is to relate the SPIRIT of the story while maintaining historical honesty. I think that we shouldn't make assumptions in a case such as the dandelions as to what she was using them for, simply state that she was out collecting them.

My problem is figuring out how to fit everything I want to into the time allotted me anyways, so leaving out any words I can is a help:)

[slim]

Is it insulting to say she was a "poor, destitute, old widow who was reduced to picking greens in a field" or something similar? 

The initial purpose of including mother Bathrick in the story is to illustrate the disparity in stature (and status) of the grenadiers and the person to whom they surrendered. Immediately after we credit her with the famous saying about capturing six grenadiers. But all throughout the weekend we talk about "what would happen to the women and children if their husband or father was killed."

It's not insulting to paint the picture of her being a poor old widow - provided we've already established the women had to fend for themselves once the men were gone. I realize she was making concoctions of dandelions and that's probably how she supported herself but for our purposes, that's irrelevant. Although, it wouldn't be hard to say that instead of "just picking some greens for a salad."

[Mutti]

As an aside, about 18 months ago our Family went through a 12 week period of no money income (job - but no paycheck).

As I fumbled the budget around, I realized how fortunate we were to have use of items such as Dandelion and other green edibles (and the knowledge to use them). If/When I present MB - I plan to incorporate that type of information to make her a more "real" person.

In the end it is not about the "Greens". The Legend is about the time and the ability to adjust, adapt and overcome the difficulties around us - no matter what.

I don't downplay the role of Suzanna Wyman in my WIP D.O.M. -

"How many of his children gathered around the table to celebrate his 55th Birthday we cannot know - we cannot know how he stood when told the news, nor how he felt as the day came which most knew was inevitable.  His wife Susanna told him he was too old to go - I imagine with two of their eight children under the age of Eleven - it was her wish he stay for the family. But we all know how D.O.M.s can be - especially those like Hezekiah Wyman. Especially when they arise from the Couch."

The purpose of the above is not to diminish Suzanna, but to make her struggles with decisions "Human versus History" for Ladies attending AS. In doing so I hope to show that Apathy - which seems to prevail today - is something that can be "overcome" by individual choice. Each time I say those words I become more involved in the History which I hope will make me a better IIT.

mutti
(source for Playing Cards with pictures/information on Edibles: http://www.wildmanstevebrill.com/

[DieslPwrd]

Thanks to all for the thoughtful insights backed up by research and experience.  This discussion has become bigger than Mother Batherick and here is my take...it is, as nhlibertas said, our role to relate the spirit of these stories.  And it is, I think, important to be mindful that some nit-picker could take some stories and tarnish the reputation of AS by saying that we promulgate unfounded information.

We all know that in any human interaction, there will be more than one version of the truth.    Our physiology dictates that we cannot possibly take in all the information at one time.  This is doubly true in the life-or-death situations we are relating through these stories.  I think the proper course of action, for me, is to expediently qualify the tales by saying some accounts vary, but there is no contesting the fact that through their indomitable spirit and brave actions, a comparatively rag-tag population overcame the world's best military force. And then tell the stories. 

[Ratchett]

It is also acceptable to say that our source PRR states this story of Mother B...  The history can all be told as how Hackett-Fischer researched.

As with all events there is perspectives A- B- C- and probably a D and then there is the truth of what really happened which never gets accurately portrayed due to perspectives. Each reporter/researcher offers their own opinion of the facts....

Don't try to 21st century our founding generation---those men and women were a bred of their own, an injustice to see them any other way. They may have been poor in $$ and by England' s standards but they were wealthy in fortitude and in Spirit, a misjudgement of the British crown! (A sentence I managed to leave off--something I am good at doing.)

Just my .02

In His grip,
ratchett

[Whisker]

Funny - I've always had a similar reaction of cringing to hear Mother Batherick described as poor because she collects wild food... and therefore used to portray her evidently lowly or weak nature. 

In my view, someone who has the skills to be economically independent from European standards of "civilized" food where people cultivate to sell and buy is more of a 'patriot' to the American cause of independence.  Then and now.. 

Also, Dandelion roots make an excellent coffee substitute.  Dig em while the flowers are young though- as with all wild plants the get more bitter as summer progresses. 

[Mutti]

Don't try to 21st century our founding generation---those men and women were a bred of their own, an injustice to see them any other way.

Aren't we however presenting this History as our own and therefore wanting current Generations to "own" the concepts?

In general, most people want someone to emulate with the possibility of achieving everlasting achievements in their Lifetime (i.e. Helping pass Legislation, Teaching people a skill, Creating a better Mousetrap).

With some attention spans short and sweet - crafting a Presentation that highlights Revolutionary War Humans vs "a Historical Figure" can make the difference in "I can't wait to get another AQT" to "So what did happen at ?."

Wurstmacher, OddBall and CastleMountain are great examples @ this. I can't wait to meet more on the trail and learn.

[Foppish Dandy]

Don't try to 21st century our founding generation---those men and women were a bred of their own, an injustice to see them any other way.

Aren't we however presenting this History as our own and therefore wanting current Generations to "own" the concepts?

In general, most people want someone to emulate with the possibility of achieving everlasting achievements in their Lifetime (i.e. Helping pass Legislation, Teaching people a skill, Creating a better Mousetrap).

With some attention spans short and sweet - crafting a Presentation that highlights Revolutionary War Humans vs "a Historical Figure" can make the difference in "I can't wait to get another AQT" to "So what did happen at ?."

Wurstmacher, OddBall and CastleMountain are great examples @ this. I can't wait to meet more on the trail and learn.

I think what Ratchett was trying to get at (correct me if I'm wrong) was that we can't analyze their motives or actions in a 21st century context if we want to correctly understand them. However, we can still apply the lessons from these stories to our 21st century lives.

FD

[Ratchett]

Yes, thank you FD!

[Mutti]

Oh - Thanks!

[6MMBOB]

History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon.
Napoleon bonapart.

[Roland]

Half of writing history is hiding the truth-Malcolm Reynolds

Didn't we have a "Hezekiah Wyman didn't exist" thread a while back?

Mother Batherick was poor. But it's true, she wasn't just picking random flowers, she was picking something proven good to eat.

If our aim is to be as accurate as possible, maybe we shouldn't tell some of these stories?

I would argue that it doesn't matter if Wyman didn't exist. Still a powerful image. With Mother Batherick, a poor woman taking those redocats is a more powerful image then a rich woman. Just something to consider.

Possibly this thread should be moved?


Roland

[asminuteman]

Poppycock!!!!

please folks...DON'T START THIS AGAIN

[asminuteman]

As an aside, about 18 months ago our Family went through a 12 week period of no money income (job - but no paycheck).

As I fumbled the budget around, I realized how fortunate we were to have use of items such as Dandelion and other green edibles (and the knowledge to use them). If/When I present MB - I plan to incorporate that type of information to make her a more "real" person.

In the end it is not about the "Greens". The Legend is about the time and the ability to adjust, adapt and overcome the difficulties around us - no matter what.

I don't downplay the role of Suzanna Wyman in my WIP D.O.M. -

"How many of his children gathered around the table to celebrate his 55th Birthday we cannot know - we cannot know how he stood when told the news, nor how he felt as the day came which most knew was inevitable.  His wife Susanna told him he was too old to go - I imagine with two of their eight children under the age of Eleven - it was her wish he stay for the family. But we all know how D.O.M.s can be - especially those like Hezekiah Wyman. Especially when they arise from the Couch."

The purpose of the above is not to diminish Suzanna, but to make her struggles with decisions "Human versus History" for Ladies attending AS. In doing so I hope to show that Apathy - which seems to prevail today - is something that can be "overcome" by individual choice. Each time I say those words I become more involved in the History which I hope will make me a better IIT.

mutti
(source for Playing Cards with pictures/information on Edibles: http://www.wildmanstevebrill.com/

NOT pick anyone out
As one who reads WAY to many documents from the era......
And NO its not an easy task if you havent been taught just how to go about it!
(the rules of THAT DAY AND AGE, not of today)
lets set a few facts to rest.......and I do not have time to write the whole story out.....

First you must drop the prism of 21st century life.....
Life in the 18th century was more matter of fact....

-Suzanna Wyman is the "Second wife" of Hezekiah Wyman (married 1776)
-Sara is the First wife, passing in late summer 1775, 6months after the engagement of Lexington.
-Hezekiah still having children needs a wife to raise the children.
-Hezekiah is not 55 years of age on April 19th 1775.....(not his Birthday)
(common practice to say "you are in your 55th year") (also explains confusion about Capt Sam's age)
-Hezekiah's is "friends" with Benjiman "Amie" Cutter,...why....brother in-law
-why is this important?....Amie Cutter and David Lamson are friends............who do you think invited Hezekiah to join the raiding party on the wagons? and introduced him to David?

-ALL children until??? 1800??? The first born (male or female) take the mothers or fathers name
-ex: Sara's is the mother...her 1st born daughter would be named Sara
       Hezekiah 1st born son......is Hezekiah......

-RE marriage due to death are QUITE common, hence a family may only show 2 children due to birth, yet records will show a family of 12!
(are ya seeing a trend about HOW patient you must be when reading records of that day and age?)

-Nataniel Wyman, shot and killed on Lexington common is in Hezekiah's family (cousin if I recall)

-He does own a white mare (professional hunter) white stands out, you don't want to shoot your horse thinking its a deer do you? Well trained, known for shooting across the pommel.

We are working on PROVING he owned a rifle,......jager rifles or "twisted guns" have been out since the beginning of the century....very cleaver were those dutchmen...as it goes..."King's Ransom" or years wages..... there HAS come some evidence, double checking references, its time consuming!

And this can go on!!!! yet why?......If you read Paul Revere's Ride (David Hacket Fisher) you in good shape!, he's quoting from documents of the time, (you know those BORING pages at the rear of the book) YES are some "Family" facts sensationalized?....most likely.......makes for a good story!
Think about Capt Sam, reloading his musket in the middle of the road AFTER, being shot and bayoneted? Highly unlikely, just tell the story to that point and say (pause) "and as Legend goes"
SEE, your good and so is the story

Well sorry for being on MY SOAPBOX......I resisted (as did others) responding to this thread
I just couldn't take it any longer. There are folks here who can teach you HOW to do 18th century research, and those wonderful pits falls to watch out for......JUST DONT make it up......
if you don't know ASK....REREAD the storys (stick to the script)

wohdoh nah
Your most humble and obedient servent  (cough*)
Pvt Doyle
11th Virginia
6th Pa Regiment

[asminuteman]

It is also acceptable to say that our source PRR states this story of Mother B...  The history can all be told as how Hackett-Fischer researched.

As with all events there is perspectives A- B- C- and probably a D and then there is the truth of what really happened which never gets accurately portrayed due to perspectives. Each reporter/researcher offers their own opinion of the facts....

Don't try to 21st century our founding generation---those men and women were a bred of their own, an injustice to see them any other way. They may have been poor in $$ and by England' s standards but they were wealthy in fortitude and in Spirit, a misjudgement of the British crown! (A sentence I managed to leave off--something I am good at doing.)

Just my .02

In His grip,
ratchett

At the risk of being forward My Lady,
Hugs and Kisses!.....well said...

Errr   that was the rum talking ...*tips hat* sorry Lassie...

[Justin]

Thanks for the education ASMinuteman! Did you know ASMinuteman drove nearly 600 miles last weekend to go to the Castro Valley Apr 21-22 shoot! What great sacrifice of time and energy! A true patriot! 

If I may, a quote from Paul Revere's Ride pg 244, paragraph 2

"...They came upon an old woman named Mother Batherick, so impoverished that she was digging a few weeds from a vacant field for something green to eat."

No mention of Dandelion Greens. Impoverished yes, but no Dandelion greens. Not to say the Mr. Fischer's research is exact, we just claim this is the book that we get most of our information from.

Another one that makes me cringe:

Paul Revere's Ride pg 209-210
"Several remembered his [Colonel Barrett] "strict orders" not to fire until the British(?) fired firest, but then "to fire as fast as we could."
Paul Revere's Ride pg 213
"As men began to fall around him, Major Buttrick of Concord turned and cried, "Fire, fellow soldiers, for God's sake fire!"

I've heard these two mixed, matched, and said by the Colonel, the Major, and by Issac Davis himself depending on who is telling the story.

My point is this:
Castro Valley is only about 375 miles from ASMinuteman, but the stories are always better. 

It is the content, picture, and the relationship (emotional) to the historical figures you create for others that is important, not the details. OR as my mentor always said "If it isn't true, it oughta be."

[asminuteman]

Bezon Justin,

Sir you are to dam kind..........what do I owe you?...Burrito?
you can tell these wonderful folks the truth.....I'm an evil lil troll!.......

Lest anyone forget Camiljr (SI) was my travel companion!
And Castro Valley, was in solid hands, we just answered the call to muster.

Hope to see you again soon, and bend yer ear over some rum!

And you shouldn't get my breech clot in a bunch......I know the correct answers
you be well until the next campfire

as Hezekiah said (just a guess mind you) after filling his pockets with the Kings powder, at the wagon raid..........."I just thought it would be proper to return it to the King"....when asked why he fired upon the retreating regulars

[asminuteman]

By the way,

for the Best Mother Bathrick,
listen to Savageshooter

For the best Marriage that Never Was
listen to Marrpat Pippi

Best David Lamson
Mrpete

don't get me started on ALL Determended Dames
22calgal

ItsanSKS, Bob210.....and V (british accent)

hours reading and compearing notes with LLP

I have been blessed to hear the stories by these folks!

heck CSHR even looks like Capt Samuel Whittmore

[Castle Mountain]

Determined dames?   I like the expression 'Dangerous Dames'  much better for they were women who knew very much what they were about!
Yep Dangerous Dames and DOM.   Hooahhhhh!

Cm

[asminuteman]

Bezon Castle,

yep I've heard it that way also......both work...play to your audience!

[Roland]

Is there another synonym for Dangerous that starts with D? Cause I love alliteration, but Dangerous Old Men and Dangerous Dames kinda sound like the same thing.

Maybe we should have kinda a disclaimer at the beginning, before we tell any history. Something like maybe, "All history is objective. Nobody really knows what happened, or how it happened. Or why. But Appleseed has been able to determine this is what probably happened."

I had a really snappy one in my mind earlier, but I forgot it. Maybe I'll post it later.

Roland

[Rocket Man]

"Determined" works.

Sometimes I like to call 'em the "Hazardous Antiquated Geezers," along with the Dangerous Dames or Fabulous Females or Patriots in Petticoats...  You gotta have fun with it, because it's contagious and it gets people's attention.

[asminuteman]

Thanks RM,

I've been banging my head trying to remember how jackie worded it!

YMHS
-k