New Guy

[Indecision]

I live in the Prescott area and I'm planning to do the April Buckeye Appleseed as my first step to becoming an instructor. I'll be extremely disappointed if I don't qualify Rifleman my first time out. I just got out of the Army and love teaching and working with firearms, I also like what the Appleseed Project is trying to do. So I figured it would be a good place to volunteer. Hoping to make some new friends and learn a thing or two.

[azmule]

Fantastic!  Welcome!  I'll get a chance to meet you at some point, though it hasn't been established yet if I'll be working the Buckeye or the Kingman shoot that particular weekend, I'm in Buckeye pretty much every other time.

[Sly223]

Have you practiced any of the transitions, or the timed courses?
You can be a good shot, but not be able to put them all together.
Anyway,Best of luck but don't have a melt down if you don't get it on your first try.
Very few get it at their first AS.
The folks that did do well did a ton of practice according to Freds Guide to Becoming a Rifleman.
Steady position.6 steps ,NPOA.propper sling use.
Just the right equipment can help stack the odds in your Favor.
Welcome aboard, you are in the presence of the Greatest quality of folks the world has to offer!

[Indecision]

I haven't practiced anything though I just shot the Washington's Birthday Match this weekend and did a 405-5x my first time out. I know there's a LOT of room for improvement there. I also legitimately qualified expert in the Army on the actual qual range, not the Alt C paper targets. So I'm hoping I can pull it off.

Unfortunately the appleseedinfo.org site doesn't seem to have any manuals, doctrine, or anything pertaining to the qualification for that matter. If it is there, it's not very easy to find. It may be accessible via the forum, but I haven't looked yet.

I'll suck with the transitions regardless of what I do, I have a prosthetic leg so getting up and down quickly isn't really an option.

I wish there was going to be an RBC in the area, I don't really want to go to Colorado for it, but it is what it is. A close IBC would be nice too.

[AFTERMATH]

Have you considered moving to Minnesota?   

Just kidding!  But I would like to offer you a warm welcome on behalf of cold MN.
You'll find our qual is a little different than that of the Army, it offers its own challenges, but if you're determined you can do it.   There's a bunch of info. on the forum, try starting here:  http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?board=16.0
And we have plenty of instructors, upset that they're not at an Appleseed, prowling the forum for questions to answer! 

Also, everybody sucks with transitions at their first shoot - so don't worry about it.  The instructors at your event will be more than happy to work with you in this area.

Thank you for your service!

I live in the Prescott area and I'm planning to do the April Buckeye Appleseed as my first step to becoming an instructor. I'll be extremely disappointed if I don't qualify Rifleman my first time out. I just got out of the Army and love teaching and working with firearms, I also like what the Appleseed Project is trying to do. So I figured it would be a good place to volunteer. Hoping to make some new friends and learn a thing or two.

Have you considered moving to Minnesota?   

Just kidding!  But I would like to offer you a warm welcome on behalf of cold MN.
You'll find our qual is a little different than that of the Army, it offers its own challenges, but if you're determined you can do it.   There's a bunch of info. on the forum, try starting here:  http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?board=16.0
And we have plenty of instructors, upset that they're not at an Appleseed, prowling the forum for questions to answer! 

Also, everybody sucks with transitions at their first shoot - so don't worry about it.  The instructors at your event will be more than happy to work with you in this area.

Thank you for your service!
Have fun and best of luck!

Aftermath

[wcmartin1]

It's "unofficial", but lots of good info here - http://appleseedshoot.blogspot.com/

Git-R-Done! 

[9mm4545]

Welcome to the party! The actual Appleseed "final exam" or AQT consists of four 10 round courses of fire: a 2 min. standing stage on a single 100 yard (scaled) humanoid silhouettte target with 50 points possible. A 55 second transition from standing to sitting (or kneeling) using two mags prepped with 2 and 8 rounds, fired on two 200 yard targets (5 + 5 hits per target), with 50 points possible. A 65 second transition from standing to prone using two mags prepped with 2 and 8 rounds, fired on three 300 yard targets (3, 3, 4), again 50 points possible. And finally a 5 minute prone stage using one mag prepped with 10 rounds, fired on four 400 yard targets (2, 2, 3, 3). The fourth stage points are doubled for a possible 100 points. 210 out of 250 possible points earns a Rifleman recognition (or expert). For those who physically cannot make the transitions safely on stages two and three, they are allowed to stay in position but must wait until others begin firing to fire their first shot. A typical weekend event will use targets scaled to represent the various ranges while placed at 25 meters. If an actual distance range is used, the time limits and procedures are the same for the four courses of fire but instead of multiple targets on stages two, three, and four, a single target is used. The teaching methods used closely resemble those used in the Army during WWII and the old 1943 M1 Garand training films are a great way to preview some of what is taught at an event, at least as far as the shooting portion goes.

Do have fun, enjoy yourself, and thank you for your service.

[Indecision]

yeah, I would NEVER move to Minnesota. I am from Indianapolis originally, and I love it, but that's about as far North as I would want to go. That being said, I just moved to Prescott for school and who knows where I will end up after that, where ever the job takes me.

The qual sounds about what we did for the Service Rifle match aside from the transitions and the multiple targets. I'm confident I can do it, especially if i get out and put some rounds down range in the mean time. I hadn't shot a rifle in a couple years when i did the match this weekend, so I'm confident I can do it. Time will tell, I'm doing it regardless.

At Buckeye, is it all on the Alt C target at 25m, or is there any actual distance stuff involved?

[azmule]

Have you considered moving to Minnesota?   

Hey!  Hands off!  We lose more good volunteers that way...   

[Indecision]

Have you considered moving to Minnesota?   

Hey!  Hands off!  We lose more good looking volunteers that way...   

[azmule]

If you're eager to get started, there's a March shoot in Kingman.  You're not much farther from Kingman than Buckeye.   

[Indecision]

We will see, I need to get a new rifle though. My suppressed 10.5" AR isn't the best choice in the world for distance shooting.



I could give my FS2000 a go though

[Reddot]

Welcome Aboard Airborne!
The most important thing is to get to a shoot, any shoot.  I'm betting you'll learn stuff about rifle shooting that you hadn't even thought of before.  Pretty sure you'll pick up some interesting history as well.
Can't quite see well enough in your picture above, but it looks like the DUI for the 509th PIR; I served alongside of them when they were in Vicenza, IT--long ago and far away.
Again, welcome!!

[Sly223]

You may be able to access info more readily from the founders, Fred's original co.
Fred's M-14 stocks.
Also, all AS are Adaptive for any type of disabilities,
One way is not to transition at all,
start in the position,
and then you just can not be the first to send one down range.
You seem to be open minded and the mind is the most effective tool you will ever bring to an AS.

[mosinguy]

You seem to be open minded and the mind is the most effective tool you will ever bring to an AS.

Hear, hear!

[Indecision]

Welcome Aboard Airborne!
The most important thing is to get to a shoot, any shoot.  I'm betting you'll learn stuff about rifle shooting that you hadn't even thought of before.  Pretty sure you'll pick up some interesting history as well.
Can't quite see well enough in your picture above, but it looks like the DUI for the 509th PIR; I served alongside of them when they were in Vicenza, IT--long ago and far away.
Again, welcome!!

Close, 508th PIR. 509th does opposing force for people going through JRTC at Fort Polk, LA and upon some research, they also have a battalion at Fort Richardson, AK. This is their regimental crest.

You may be able to access info more readily from the founders, Fred's original co.
Fred's M-14 stocks.
Also, all AS are Adaptive for any type of disabilities,
One way is not to transition at all,
start in the position,
and then you just can not be the first to send one down range.
You seem to be open minded and the mind is the most effective tool you will ever bring to an AS.

On Fred's site, there was a little bit of info, but still no manual or anything. I also saw the link to the shooting skills section. It just seems counter intuitive to me that anyone that plans on taking an Appleseed (or just want some shooting tips) can't order a manual, guide, or something from the Appleseed store to look at before you get there. Though I'm sure that it has to do with it being taught in a certain way.

[Reddot]

Yep, I should have remembered they transitioned from the 509 to the 508th while i was there; they latered transitioned to the 503rd and moved the 508th back to Bragg.....you need a play book to keep up with it!!  Anyway, glad to have you. 

[Sly223]

Most of the time in this area we are only at 25m and 100,
either of those rifles can do it.
Is the bull pup 556 as well?

[Indecision]

Most of the time in this area we are only at 25m and 100,
either of those rifles can do it.
Is the bull pup 556 as well?

Yeah, it is. And I'm sure the AR can do it, but the short barrel and extremely short sight radius would make it more difficult. I'd like to do it with an AR more set up for accuracy than mine is. Once I earn my patch I'll start playing with some more uncommon weapons. I may try it with the FS2000 if I don't have a decent AR to shoot it with though.

[Roland]

I'm sure you could shoot rifleman with a 10.5'' barrel, with that Aimpoint. The only concern we have with SBR's and bullpups is that it becomes a whole lot easier to muzzle sweep someone with a barrle that short, and our first concern is safety.

Nice hardware, and welcome to the program!

Roland

[wcmartin1]

Opinion - shoot the AR, but remove the front vertical hand grip and attach a sling swivel with an adjustable USGI web sling as the proper use and advantages of shooting with a sling will be covered throughout the event.

Good luck, Sir. 

[Indecision]

I'm sure you could shoot rifleman with a 10.5'' barrel, with that Aimpoint. The only concern we have with SBR's and bullpups is that it becomes a whole lot easier to muzzle sweep someone with a barrle that short, and our first concern is safety.

Nice hardware, and welcome to the program!

Roland

The bullup is MAYBE an inch shorter than the AR without the suppressor, but with a 17" barrel. I'd take off the optic anyway, it's an aimpoint knock off. The Yankee Hill Machine sights would work just fine, just worried about the sight radius.

Also, I don't see how it would be easier to flag someone with the SBR or bullup stuff, down range is still down range. If you are going to be negligent and flag someone, I doubt the length of the barrel is that much of a contribution. The barrel points the same direction regardless of length.

Edit: Adding pics... Sorry for the quality, camera phone. Also, note the stock is extended on the AR.

[Indecision]

Opinion - shoot the AR, but remove the front vertical hand grip and attach a sling swivel with an adjustable USGI web sling as the proper use and advantages of shooting with a sling will be covered throughout the event.

Good luck, Sir. 

Oh yeah, it would definitely get a sling, I won't be using a USGI sling though, I'm going to pick up a National Match style sling for my Serivce Rifle class AR I am building. Something more like this http://prostores3.megawebservers.com/turnersling_com/-strse-10/National-Match-Service-Rifle/Detail.bok

[wcmartin1]

I like the Turner AWS myself - http://www.creedmoorsports.com/shop/Service_Rifle_Slings/

[PaxxAZ]

hmmm. Prescott...there is a range or two up there we should probably try and get to host a shoot. More then likely not their cup o joe, but an idea. Or perhaps something that takes more time during the week. 

[AZRedhawk44]

405-5x

You do that with a suppressed 10.5" M4 with no sling?  Good shooting, if so!

Welcome, Indecision.  I'll be the shoot boss at Buckeye for April 21-22.

Buckeye does not have a "full distance" facility for us to use.  So, we do our instruction on their 50 yard pistol bay, at 25 yards against reduced targets.  We will talk about components of full distance shooting sometime on Sunday, and there MIGHT be an opportunity to "simulate" the effects of distance by using rimfire (or centerfire) equipment on the 200 yard public range once they close it to the public in the afternoon, but that really depends upon the flexibility of whomever the Chief RSO is for the facility this year.  Traditionally we have an EXCELLENT rapport with that facility and our relationship has been mutually beneficial... I daresay they have been the most supportive range for Appleseed in the entire State.  I will be contacting them later in March to hash out particulars of our event.

But, if you shoot a 405/500 at a high power event with an M4 with no sling, we'll have you shooting Rifleman by the end of the weekend as long as you apply the fundamentals we present.  Bring a sling!  Traditional USGI cotton web sling, 1907 pattern sling, whatever. 

[Indecision]

hmmm. Prescott...there is a range or two up there we should probably try and get to host a shoot. More then likely not their cup o joe, but an idea. Or perhaps something that takes more time during the week. 

Yeah, there is a range up here. I haven't made it out yet. They have a high power match on Memorial Day weekend, I don't see why they wouldn't be willing to do an Appleseed.

Why don't you guys do anything at Ben Avery. Definitely room to do the full distance stuff.

[Indecision]

405-5x

You do that with a suppressed 10.5" M4 with no sling?  Good shooting, if so!

No, I wish! I was using a friends M16A2 with a 20" USGI style barrel, hooded rear aperature, and a National Match Style leather sling. Also borrowed his soft Creedmoor Jacket, I definitely had the fat guy in a little coat thing going on though, so I'm not sure how much it really helped. That being said, I scored the highest of the 4 guys on my team using comparable rifles, all of them have been doing this for at least a year though. So for my first match ever, I felt good with my performance. The guy that was coaching me during the clinic shot a 478 or something, so I think i was in decent hands as far as that goes as well. Another note for me, if I haven't shot for long periods of time, I don't shoot nearly as well. My last time shooting was 2-2.5yrs before that, so I think I'll make some decent strides just getting behind the trigger.

[Indecision]

I like the Turner AWS myself - http://www.creedmoorsports.com/shop/Service_Rifle_Slings/

I'll probably do the Turner leather sling actually. I don't like the synthetics.

[wcmartin1]

I like 'em both, but prefer the AWS.

Leather on the M1A "Loaded" and biothane AWS on the AR15.

Leather on the Garand and biothane AWS on the M1A "Super Match".

A USGI web sling works just as well as a 1907-style sling, though and that's what you'll see demonstrated at the event.

Whatever your preference, bring one.

Git-R-Done!