NY Militia Law

[gunville]

The town of Hannible NY met to discuss forming a militia; the local law-enforcement showed up to tell them it wasn't legal to form a militia in NY, per NY Penal code sect 240.

NY Code - Section 240: Military parades and organizations by unauthorized bodies prohibited


1. No body of men other than the organized militia  and  the
  armed  forces  of  the  United  States  except such independent military
  organizations as  were  on  the  twenty-third  day  of  April,  eighteen
  eighty-three  and  now  are in existence and such other organizations as
  may be formed under the provisions  of  this  chapter,  shall  associate
  themselves  together  as  a  military company or other unit or parade in
  public with firearms in any city or town of this state.
    2. No municipal corporation  shall  raise  or  appropriate  any  money
  toward  arming  or equipping, uniforming or in any other way supporting,
  sustaining or providing drill rooms or armories for  any  such  body  of
  men.
    3.  No  body  of  men  shall be granted a certificate of incorporation
  under any corporate name which shall mislead, or tend  to  mislead,  any
  person  into  believing  that  such  corporation  is  connected  with or
  attached to the organized militia or any unit thereof in any capacity or
  way whatsoever. In case any such certificate has been heretofore or  may
  hereafter  be  granted,  which  in the judgment of the adjutant general,
  misleads or tends to mislead anyone into believing that such corporation
  is so connected or attached in  any  capacity  or  way  whatsoever,  the
  adjutant general shall notify such corporation, in writing, to forthwith
  discontinue  the  use  of its said corporate name and forthwith take the
  necessary steps to change its name pursuant to the statute in such  case
  made  and  provided,  to  some name not so calculated to mislead. In the
  event such proceedings are not forthwith taken and completed within  six
  months from the service of said notice, the attorney general shall bring
  an  action  to  procure  a  judgment  vacating  or  annulling the act of
  incorporation of such corporation, or any act renewing the  corporation,
  or continuing its corporate existence or annulling the existence of such
  corporation.
    4.  Associations wholly composed of soldiers honorably discharged from
  the service of the United States, or members of the  order  of  Sons  of
  Veterans,  may parade in public with firearms on Memorial day, or on May
  first, known as Dewey day, or upon the reception  of  any  unit  of  the
  organized  militia or of the armed forces of the United States returning
  from duty or from the active military service of the United States,  and
  for  the  purpose  of  escort  duty at the burial of deceased members or
  former members of the organized militia  or  the  armed  forces  of  the
  United  States.  Students  in  educational  institutions  where military
  science is a prescribed part of the course  of  instruction,  and  cadet
  organizations  composed  of  youths  under  eighteen years of age, under
  responsible instructors, may, with the consent of the adjutant  general,
  drill  and  parade  with firearms in public under the superintendence of
  their instructors.
    5. Any person violating any provision of subdivisions one through four
  of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.
    6. (a) Any person who assembles or conspires to assemble with  one  or
  more  persons  as  a  paramilitary organization and has knowledge of its
  purpose is guilty of a class C felony when he, with one  or  more  other
  members  of such organization, practices with a military weapon in order
  to further the purpose of such organization.
    (b) As used in this subdivision: (i) "paramilitary organization" means
  an organization of two or more persons who engage or conspire to  engage
  in  military  instruction  or  training  in  warfare or sabotage for the
  purpose  of  unlawfully  causing  physical  injury  to  any  person   or
  unlawfully damaging the property of any person.
    (ii)  "Military  weapon"  means  any  device  capable of discharging a
  projectile by means of a gas generated from an  explosive  compound,  or

  any  explosive  or incendiary bomb, grenade, rocket, missile, or similar
  device or launching device therefor; or any device that simulates any of
  the foregoing.
    7.  This  section  shall  not be construed to prevent any organization
  authorized to do so by law from parading with firearms, nor  to  prevent
  parades by the organized militia of any other state.

[SamD]

And this has exactly what to do with Appleseed?

[Gramma Goats]

 Right to gather, right to bear arms, right to be FREE.  Just how many RIGHTS are we willing to turn over ?  Enough and there won't be any AppleSeed either.  Better to help those of like mind fight on THEIR turf before we find that we are fighting on our own.

The best defense is a strong offense etc etc.   Rights, freedom and liberty (especially when they enter on the first and second amendment ) had best be of concern to ALL of us , everywhere in this country.

Appleseed is about firearms.  Yes, i know, we are about the  HISTORY.  Yes, and history tells me .. they came for the power and the 'people' said NO. .  the rest is the HISTORY.

We say we want to wake up the sleepy hearts of the American people.  Well what do you think you are awakening them to?  Once 'enlightened' and dedicated to being responsible Americans don't ya think people are going to get a bit passionate about this country and our freedoms etc? 

We can not give people knowledge, passion, mission and patriotism and expect them to sit on it now can we ?  If the men of 1775 'Sat on it' . .   we would be drinking a whole lot more tea and hailing to the Queen.

I read gunville's  post simply as an FYI.  Keeping informed is a good thing.

GG

[JustJeff]

Police Reserves, Sheriff's Posse's, and 'Mounted Patrols' (something we have here in the West) are nothing but 'militias' by another name.  Towns also, usually, have the ability to set up a 'constabulary service' to augment existing police departments.  The problem they ran into was the use of a term which is now normally associated with radical elements (but then, the militiamen of 1775 were somewhat 'radical' in their time too).  Call them a Sheriff's Posse, Constabulary, or Police Reserve force, and no one can do diddly.

I also agree with Sam, that this is 'off-topic' for Appleseed, in that it doesn't deal with the years leading up to April 19, 1775 or have anything to do with Rifle instruction.  Discussions of modern militias could lead us into problems which is why they are taboo at our events, and should also be taboo in the public forum.

[Another D.O.M.]

What this has to do with Appleseed, at least in New York State, is contained within Section 6:

6. (a) Any person who assembles or conspires to assemble with  one  or
  more  persons  as  a  paramilitary organization and has knowledge of its
  purpose is guilty of a class C felony when he, with one  or  more  other
  members  of such organization, practices with a military weapon in order
  to further the purpose of such organization.
    (b) As used in this subdivision: (i) "paramilitary organization" means
  an organization of two or more persons who engage or conspire to  engage
  in  military  instruction  or  training  in  warfare or sabotage for the
  purpose  of  unlawfully  causing  physical  injury  to  any  person   or
  unlawfully damaging the property of any person.
    (ii)  "Military  weapon"  means  any  device  capable of discharging a
  projectile by means of a gas generated from an  explosive  compound,  or
  any  explosive  or incendiary bomb, grenade, rocket, missile, or similar
  device or launching device therefor; or any device that simulates any of
  the foregoing.

What this section sets forth is that if they chose to do so, law enforcement organizations within the state could raid any Appleseed event and place everyone at the event under arrest, claiming that they were "engaging or conspiring to engage in military instruction or training in warfare or sabotage for the purpose of unlawfully causing physical injury to any person or unlawfully damaging the property of any person."  It doesn't matter that Appleseed does not do any such thing - all that matters is the interpretation of the authoritative body at the time.  This law can very easily be used to destroy the Appleseed program in our state if someone chose to take offense at what we do and malign the intent of the law to their purpose.

Such laws also make it increasingly more difficult to recruit new ranges to host our events, since every member of such ranges could also be falsely implicated in the 'conspiracy' portion of the law.

[The Mrs.]

As Gunville's post shows, these folks were meeting with the intent of forming a militia.  This is not so with Appleseed. 

ADOM, I appreciate you pointing out the parts of the law that you see as a potential pitfall for Appleseed, but I put forth that there are long standing trainings from the NRA that also would fall under these provisions of the law.  Every gun safety class put on by the NRA potentially falls under these provisions.  Every Jr Riflemen class also would be in jeopardy.

Appleseed has no agenda to be, or conceive to be a militia.  In a court of law prosecutors would need to prove intent.  Appleseed has the benefit of history with it as the NRA's successful and long time programs are our equal to the end of teaching people how to safely fire a firearm and it's proper use.

I agree that ranges who do not know us do sometimes appear to be wary of our intent, but if they host NRA trainings etc they do already acknowledge the importance of our mission to teach the safe and effective use of firearms.  And if they listen to the history we teach and how it is taught, they will know that we are about empowering people to become involved with their vote and other communications with their civic leaders.

[MeanStreaker]

D.O.M, yeah, I guess they could try that.  Anybody could lie and try just about anything.

But as you point out, Appleseed is absolutely none of those things.  Never has been and never will be.

I suppose the authorities could come in and do the same to IDPA or NRA smallbore competitions at the same ranges too.  

But it would be silly for them to try it.

It's good to keep up and stay as informed as possible, but I don't think this should discourage anyone as this law doesn't apply to Appleseed.

[Fred]

    This is a prime reason we cannot allow any RWVA instructor - or anyone else for that matter - to teach or talk about "military tactics" or any other non-Appleseed subject at an Appleseed.

    If a student brings up the subject, you simply say, "That's not what AS is about..." and move on.

[techres]

What Fred said.

Only to add, it also up to each of us to present ourselves professionally and with no hint of any wink-win, nudge-nudge of any kind.  Why?  Because there isn't one.

We armor the program with our presentation of it.  That happens at the shoots, in our materials, at gun shows, on the forums, and when interacting with the press.

We armor the program when we draw in the very people who might get concerned about something they have no info on.  So get those LEO's, local politicians, radio hosts, and government workers to your seeds having fun and learning.

We fear no man because any man is just another person to invite to a shoot.

Every state has it's details and pitfalls, but the center is true for every state: there is nothing to hide because there is nothing but what we say we are.  And the message is for everyone, so get them to the shoot and make sure they have a good time and get a solid message.

[Garand]

Gunville, are you saying that Appleseed could face legal problems in New York or are you wanting opinions on the section of law that you have posted as it relates to the revitalization of the genuine militia? It is hard to tell from your post. If the former, I have a hard time seeing how this law affects the Appleseed Project in any way. If the latter, I do not think that this forum was meant to discuss such topics(I defer to others, such as Fred, as to whether or not this assumption is correct).

[therealsteamer]

Isn't something like this on the books in Cali???  Didn't the Orange or L.A. County D.A. threaten to use their "Anti-militia law" on Appleseed events in "his neck of the woods"....  I could be wrong or have misunderstood what was relayed to me however...

[V]

Isn't something like this on the books in Cali???  Didn't the Orange or L.A. County D.A. threaten to use their "Anti-militia law" on Appleseed events in "his neck of the woods"....  I could be wrong or have misunderstood what was relayed to me however...

...and if we'd all listened to such rumors of "someone said that someone they know thinks that this law or that law might be used to do... yada yada yada" then we
would not have achieved this - pay careful attention to the left hand side scale....



and yes, in answer to your question like most states, counties, municipalities there are "anti-militia" statutes in CA as well and they have zip, nada, nothing to do with Appleseed, so tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito

[Twiggman]

While I keep my own discussion strictly on mission at shoots.  I will state I'm shocked at the number of folks who cannot see the parallels between past history and current events. 

...and I'll leave it at that.

[henschman]

If anyone is worried about this law being invoked against Appleseed, it really isn't anything to worry about.

They MIGHT, with some real loose interpretation, be able to show the "military instruction or training in warfare" element since we teach methods of marksmanship very similar to USMC and old Army marksmanship training, and since we shoot targets patterned off old military targets, but this would be no more than NRA High Power shooters do.

The part they would have a lot of trouble proving, especially against us, but even against any actual militia for that matter, would be the element that requires the training be "for the purpose of unlawfully causing physical injury to any person or unlawfully damaging the property of any person."  Also, the statute requires that anyone charged under it has to have a "knowing" state of mind about this. 

I doubt the local militia proposed by the city council even falls afoul of this requirement.

So carry on and keep making Riflemen! 

[KodyJaret]

That proposed 'M' organisation up in Hannibal NY was (is) the idea of a local conservative personality (and Iraq veteran). But after some dicussion w/ the local police chief and flak in the local media the propsed 'M' (I dare not say the word) was disbanded ,,,and in it's wake a 'Neighborhood Watch' was formed.  Phew,,! What a relief,,,no more wild eyeed "m' types to frighten the mewling reactionaries.

As to perceptions of AppleSeed. Their is a local gunsmith who will not accept our promotional liturature because we use silhouette targets, to him that means : 'RADICAL' !

As to how any law might be interpreted, IIRC a famous prosecutor once quipped; ',,,I can get a Grand Jury to indict a ham sandwich,,,'.

[Another D.O.M.]

So what have we learned from this discussion?

Other than the obvious, of course, I think there is a very important lesson that should be taken from the comments and viewpoints presented herein:

There is an urgency to our mission to save this nation!

In this case, while New Yorkers were sleeping a law was created that, in retrospect, appears to violate many of the fundamental rights our forefathers fought, and in many cases sacrificed their lives, to preserve.  Now it is the law; and it will be much more difficult to reverse it, should The People choose to do so, than it might have been to prevent it if we had been paying attention.

There is an urgency that should compel us to work even harder to awaken our sleeping neighbors - to move them to become aware of what is happening around them, and to take active steps to wake up others.

If you take nothing else away from this discussion, I hope you take away this sense of urgency, I hope it rekindles the fire of the history and heritage - all that they stand for, and all that may be lost if we do not heed this urgency!
MJA

[SamD]

So what have we learned from this discussion?

Fourteen (14) "Minute letters" not written.

[gunville]

It's long been NY policy (if not AS policy) to state "we are not a militia, we don't train militia - we're about marksmenship and heritage."  Usually this occurs about 2.5 seconds after "Welcome to Appleseed".

I posted this in the NY forum so NY instructors, and those that come to NY, and for that matter even potential students - are all aware of the law.

I don't understand it's purpose, I don't agree with it, I don't like it, but I abide by it, just like I abide by all the other stupid NY laws.

I do wonder if this one violates the 1st and 2nd Amendments, but that is tangental to mission.

[gunville]

BTW: Militia's were once banned in Massachusetts as well....

However, that occured in 1774 IIRC, and was largely ignored.

Thank God.

[gunville]

Oh yeah... I forgot to mention...

The Hannibal folks renamed themselves a "Neighborhood Watch" instead of Militia, and everything is Honky Dorey.

The rest of us simply rely on the government to protect us because they do it so well.

[Josey Wales]

So what have we learned from this discussion?

Other than the obvious, of course, I think there is a very important lesson that should be taken from the comments and viewpoints presented herein:

There is an urgency to our mission to save this nation!

In this case, while New Yorkers were sleeping a law was created that, in retrospect, appears to violate many of the fundamental rights our forefathers fought, and in many cases sacrificed their lives, to preserve.  Now it is the law; and it will be much more difficult to reverse it, should The People choose to do so, than it might have been to prevent it if we had been paying attention.

There is an urgency that should compel us to work even harder to awaken our sleeping neighbors - to move them to become aware of what is happening around them, and to take active steps to wake up others.

If you take nothing else away from this discussion, I hope you take away this sense of urgency, I hope it rekindles the fire of the history and heritage - all that they stand for, and all that may be lost if we do not heed this urgency!
MJA

..Yes it does..

[Josey Wales]

..Oh, and gunville,

..I think knowledge is power.. and to know the laws are a good way to protect yourself and or the program..

[PHenry]

We actually have a similar law on books in Fl. They both require illegal intent. My opening speech makes very clear that Appleseeds harbors no such intent.

Our cause is just, our methods unimpeachable. For people to say that one of my events offered anything other than heritage and marksmanship - they would be forced to lie.

"I will also tell you what Appleseeds is NOT about. Appleseeds is not about politics. Politics is like the weather - one day chicken, next day feather.
Appleseeds is not about anything anti-government, illegal or subversive - whatsoever!
In fact, if you harbor any such thoughts, you will want to keep them to yourself, as you will find them most unwelcome here. Appleseeders greatly respect the system of self-government handed down to us by the Founders. There is no secret handshake and no hidden agenda. Just history and marksmanship - nothing more and nothing less. "


I have included the above in my opening remarks since the very first event I ran in 2008, and would counsel all to do something similar.

[Josey Wales]

We actually have a similar law on books in Fl. They both require illegal intent. My opening speech makes very clear that Appleseeds harbors no such intent.

Our cause is just, our methods unimpeachable. For people to say that one of my events offered anything other than heritage and marksmanship - they would be forced to lie.

"I will also tell you what Appleseeds is NOT about. Appleseeds is not about politics. Politics is like the weather - one day chicken, next day feather.
Appleseeds is not about anything anti-government, illegal or subversive - whatsoever!
In fact, if you harbor any such thoughts, you will want to keep them to yourself, as you will find them most unwelcome here. Appleseeders greatly respect the system of self-government handed down to us by the Founders. There is no secret handshake and no hidden agenda. Just history and marksmanship - nothing more and nothing less. "


I have included the above in my opening remarks since the very first event I ran in 2008, and would counsel all to do something similar.

..very close to what I do, and there is nothing left open to interpit, only the fact of what we do.....Thanks PHenry

[Sly223]

PHenry,
Remember my first event when you said that and I broke out with "I Know the Rifleman handshake" Based on a thread I had read about maintaining NPOA during the hand shake. You had to be there,Trey's face was redder than his hat! Of course we had a little talk, and I don't interject with my five minute old Knowledge, without fully understanding things.

[PHenry]

My "disclaimer" is based upon an off-hand comment made by an attendee at an IBC that Fred and I ran in Ft Meyers - a comment that was made in front of a very important LEO on the governor's staff. While the comment was utterly innocent humor, the LEO quietly packed up his family and left - so quietly I didn't even notice.

Later, his close friend, a state trooper, told me what happened. I was mortified and sputtered about how pure Appleseeds is. He assured me that he and his friend were confident that Appleseeds was a stand-up org and posed zero threat of any kind. However, he also told me that since we teach shooting based upon the AQT and speak of "revolution" - some people will make an erroneous connection where none exists. He told me that if I didn't think it could / would happen, that I was just kidding myself.

It hit me like a bolt of lightning and I contacted Fred immediately after the event to ask permission to include the above disclaimer in my opening remarks. Like all good lessons - I learn this one the hard way.

I can't stop people from drawing ridiculous conclusions, but I can make certain that if they speak ill of Appleseeds, that they are lying.

[gunville]

It's amazing how much power otherwise rational beings can assign to mere words, especially when the definition of those words are often so broad and muddy.

I like the "no secret handshake" - I've heard B9 use this.

Perhaps we can further AS through political correctness... we can say we teach not only history, but herstory, and seek accurate lead disposal.

[ironshaolin]

There's a few things I don't quite understand here. So, it seems to speak that if you and 2 or 3 of your buddies decide to start shooting and reading military manuals and calling yourselves the local "militia", that you're pretty much committing a felony and will go to jail. However, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to say that the "organized" militia is legal. What is their definition of organized? As I understand it, the revolutionary war was fought by both a standing colonial army, and local "militia", which was really just a bunch of local guys with guns who didn't like the brittish trying to steal their rights. And what if, say, we were invaded by a foreign army who happened to stroll through your town shooting people. If you and 3 of your buddies grabbed your guns to fight back, then stayed armed in case they did it again, would you be committing felony then? As I understood it as the founding fathers meant it, a "militia man" was "any able-bodied man, age 18-45"? My understanding was the 2nd ammendment exists because our founding fathers believed that any government in control of an un-armed populace was far more likely to become tyrannical, and that armed citizens were to help keep the government "in check", so to speak.
Disclaimer: I am not a member of any type of militia organization myself, nor do I know anyone who is, nor do I plan on starting or joining one. However, I do believein following the law of the land as it was written by the founding fathers.

[Josey Wales]

There's a few things I don't quite understand here. So, it seems to speak that if you and 2 or 3 of your buddies decide to start shooting and reading military manuals and calling yourselves the local "militia", that you're pretty much committing a felony and will go to jail. However, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to say that the "organized" militia is legal. What is their definition of organized? As I understand it, the revolutionary war was fought by both a standing colonial army, and local "militia", which was really just a bunch of local guys with guns who didn't like the brittish trying to steal their rights. And what if, say, we were invaded by a foreign army who happened to stroll through your town shooting people. If you and 3 of your buddies grabbed your guns to fight back, then stayed armed in case they did it again, would you be committing felony then? As I understood it as the founding fathers meant it, a "militia man" was "any able-bodied man, age 18-45"? My understanding was the 2nd ammendment exists because our founding fathers believed that any government in control of an un-armed populace was far more likely to become tyrannical, and that armed citizens were to help keep the government "in check", so to speak.
Disclaimer: I am not a member of any type of militia organization myself, nor do I know anyone who is, nor do I plan on starting or joining one. However, I do believein following the law of the land as it was written by the founding fathers.

..Glad to see you ironshaolin, We need you!.....as of your thoughts above, thats why we Appleseed!! to tell the Nation "something is wrong with this picture"
..Hope to see you soon at another and another and bring someone.........spread the word..........................

..................Strength & Honor...............Josey Wales.......

[ironshaolin]

Josey Wales!

Thanks for your response. I will give you a quick thank you for all you did to help me back in September at the Appleseed. I came in at 193 on the second day, so close! I really appreciate your instruction, I've been working on everything I learned, and I will return either february or march for my 2nd go at that rifleman patch. I'll try to bring someone with me this time.