CTD constructive info, or I'll find out about it, won't I

[CSHR]

I sent an email to Bob and Fred yesterday asking where we/AS stands legally and what do they plan to, have us do, about this foolishness. No reply as of this post. I would hope they come up with some 'leadership direction' for us by then.

I suggest we see if anyone of us is a lawyer, I know of one whom I'll contact, and see what they say.

I read the reply that places California now exactly in the 1765-1776 position, this is as close as a blatant confiscation as it can get. Are you ready. Than go about your business and be intelligent about it.
'If more than one person knows about it, it isn't a secret anymore'
And continue to do our shoots, and pray that they blink before they get on the road to Concord.
Our forefather's decided where they stood and why...what have you learned from 'knowing' history?
Obviously 'we' didn't do all we could have prior to this law being enacted.


So by definition AS is NOT a vendor.

"(c)Handgun ammunition vendor" or "vendor" means any person,
firm, corporation, dealer, or any other business enterprise that is
engaged in the retail sale of any handgun ammunition, or that holds
itself out as engaged in the business of selling any handgun
ammunition." see site below.

I am NOT a lawyer, and so have this massive headache from reading this 'bill' several times....anyway, I can't find a single instance where it says we/AS can't supply/sell/give ammunition to a shooter in our event, as long as they're over 18(see below)

This law is about trying to keep ammo out of the 'bad guys hands'....yeah, yeah, skip it

"...it may be sold to a person who is at least 18 years of age, but less than 21 years of age, if the vendor reasonably believes that the ammunition is being acquired for use in a rifle and not a handgun." see information site below.
Again, we're not a 'vendor' and we know it's for a rifle 'cause it's all we allow. I would caution that any ammo not fired is returned to us. Being cautious.

And again: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_0951-1000/ab_962_bill_20090904_amended_sen_v96.html

I will also tell you (all) that after 35 years of doing my job, the person who is prepared and NOT emotional usually fares better.

CSHR

[Johnnyappleseed]

CSHR,
SS did ask the question to gun lawyer Chuck Michel.
He was a speaker at our sportsman s association .
We were told since it takes our thumprint to buy ammo , we cannot give, loan or sell to anyone else ,w/o 1st getting a vendors licence .
As for keeping it away from the bad guys --- one major political party is aligned with international law -- under international law the private ownership of firearms is considered a violation of human rights .

For more info research each political partys platform and everything will made clear as to who are the bad guys.
Semper Fidelis Sir
JA

[Old Dog]

Maybe CA should have a disclaimer in the ads for appleseeds stating that ammo cannot be legally loaned or sold to the students by the instructors due to that law and that attendees are responsible for bringing their own ammo.

What about LTR?  Can you still lend LTRs?

Waht about some instructors allowing good students to borrow their M1 or M1A for a few shots at longer ranges?  Will those "few" shots get you in trouble with the law?

[Gordon]

From all I know, y'all're doing amazing Appleseed work out there in California on behalf of all of us, under the circumstances. Thank you

[eaglescouter]

I'm sorry but I cannot find anything prohibiting private party ammunition transfers in the Handgun Ammunition Ban Bill that California passed.

[techres]

I sent an email to Bob and Fred yesterday asking where we/AS stands legally and what do they plan to, have us do, about this foolishness. No reply as of this post. I would hope they come up with some 'leadership direction' for us by then.

It is being talked about right now at national.  This is the kind of thing that has to be figured out before a statement or plan of action can be taken mostly because no one wants to give bad advice.  You did not get a response because there isn't one just yet.  On the other hand there is a short bit before this takes effect so we do not have to have an answer just yet, but we are going to use the time we do have wisely.

Thank you for PM'ing Fred and Bob.  Sorry they did not get back to you immediately, but they are on it.

I suggest we see if anyone of us is a lawyer, I know of one whom I'll contact, and see what they say.

SS talked with one, and others are talking with more.  Will report when we have real info.

I read the reply that places California now exactly in the 1765-1776 position, this is as close as a blatant confiscation as it can get. Are you ready. Than go about your business and be intelligent about it.
'If more than one person knows about it, it isn't a secret anymore'
And continue to do our shoots, and pray that they blink before they get on the road to Concord.
Our forefather's decided where they stood and why...what have you learned from 'knowing' history?
Obviously 'we' didn't do all we could have prior to this law being enacted.

This is a problem, it is bad, it is not good, but it is not a call to arms.  I hope everyone keeps an eye on the mission and not distracted by icebergs, even ones rubbing the ship.  We are 5 years old, growing fast, but there is much work to do filling lines, waking people.  This law is a symptom of a disease we can cure, but only if we keep doing that which we do well.

So by definition AS is NOT a vendor.

"(c)Handgun ammunition vendor" or "vendor" means any person,
firm, corporation, dealer, or any other business enterprise that is
engaged in the retail sale of any handgun ammunition, or that holds
itself out as engaged in the business of selling any handgun
ammunition." see site below.

I am NOT a lawyer, and so have this massive headache from reading this 'bill' several times....anyway, I can't find a single instance where it says we/AS can't supply/sell/give ammunition to a shooter in our event, as long as they're over 18(see below)

This law is about trying to keep ammo out of the 'bad guys hands'....yeah, yeah, skip it

"...it may be sold to a person who is at least 18 years of age, but less than 21 years of age, if the vendor reasonably believes that the ammunition is being acquired for use in a rifle and not a handgun." see information site below.
Again, we're not a 'vendor' and we know it's for a rifle 'cause it's all we allow. I would caution that any ammo not fired is returned to us. Being cautious.

These are definitely concerns and are being looked at.  Best be safe in all that each of us does.

And again: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_0951-1000/ab_962_bill_20090904_amended_sen_v96.html

I will also tell you (all) that after 35 years of doing my job, the person who is prepared and NOT emotional usually fares better.

CSHR

I like that line about prepared and not emotional.  That is superb.

I am certain guidance will come as soon as it can be accurate and useful.  

Techres

[Johnnyappleseed]

I'm sorry but I cannot find anything prohibiting private party ammunition transfers in the Handgun Ammunition Ban Bill that California passed.

ES
was there any type of exemption metioned in the bill for a loan during hunting or sporting etc?
Hopefully Chuck Michel was mistaken or possibily SS and I misread his answer.
A polite email to him at www.michellawyers.com may get us a take to the bank response.
Also included on his card is the following "free gun law info at :www.calgunlaws.com.
It is certainly worth whatever effort it may take to get a straight conclusion to this matter .
Lets see how we can work around --what appears to be a legal trap for honest 2A advocates.
JA

[eaglescouter]

Johhnyappleseed:  I do not believe any exemption is required for a provision that does not exist in the law....  At one point there was a provision in the bill that "would have" prevented private party transfers of more than 50 rounds per person per month.  That provision FAILED and does not exist in the current law.

The law bans handgun ammo sales that are not face to face.
The law does not discuss private party transfers of ammunition.
Sadly the law is very vague about the definition of handgun ammunition.  For this reason many sellers are going to stand back and wait for clearer laws before they choose to resume sales to california.

I'm following the issue at CalGuns.

[Johnnyappleseed]

nice going Eaglescouter
We be intersting to see what big time law firm or foundation takes on this dimwit ------author of ab 962   after he terms out
Although this is california -- he could be a future govenor

[Pvt.Joker]

Here is a post on Calguns from Michels law firm.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=374110

Also several interesting links on the post itself....

I would encourage Appleseed management to refrain from codifying any policies or procedures in regard to this joke of a law for at least the next 60 days, as the law will likely not survive much longer than that. I doubt this one will even require a Second Amendment challenge.

[techres]

I would encourage Appleseed management to refrain from codifying any policies or procedures in regard to this joke of a law for at least the next 60 days, as the law will likely not survive much longer than that.

That would be nice.

I doubt this one will even require a Second Amendment challenge.

We can hope.

ES, as you have new, hard info, please get to us. 

[eaglescouter]

Status of lawsuits regarding AB962:

Parker vs California:  Expedited.  Verdict expected week of Jan 18.
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Parker_v._California

Ooida vs Lindley:  Dismissed as not yet ripe.  Could be refiled.
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/OOIDA_v._Lindley

State Ammunition vs Lindley: Initial complaint filed in U.S. District court for the Eastern District of California
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/State_Ammunition_v._Lindley

[CSHR]

Techres,

Thanks for the 'review'. My post was only 'informational' to 'everyone' I figured they/AS were doing some kind of a meeting and only wanted to let others know 'this base was being covered' so they didn't receive any more emails they couldn't deal with yet.

I agree, 'they're' not on the road to Concord...but the history we instruct lets us know our forefather's didn't wait till the last minute to prepare.....bootcamp used to tell us you're training/preparing for being shipped to Nam, sweat here so you don't bleed there....now drop and give me 50 more you @#$%^&*        That's the best part of it being a memory, it's sorta funny now...misery loving company and all.

eaglescouter,

I couldn't find anything in it either on private party transfer since that '50 rds thing was removed.

I can't remember the exact 'quote' or who it was by, but it went something like this...if a law is a bad/illegal one we are obliged not to obey it and even should actively entreat against it.

Nice that CalGuns and others are fighting this foolishness.....but...since so many people in this state feel like the government owes them a living/healthcare/protection/feeling safe from inanimate objects I figure some other demoncrat will prey on their fears to get re-elected and put up more bills....the real question is 'how do we rearrange the healthcare law so that gmo food is illegal, family farms come back, industrial polluters are made to clean up the mess no matter the cost...Exxon still hasn't paid for the Valdez mess...people understand that it's ok to be different from your beliefs, laws are often the tyrant's will, there are consequences for your actions even if your 'more equal' then the rest of us,  teach self respect and responsibility at a pre-school age, end the federal reserve and base money on something of value....maybe I should stop here..Naw.. how do we get people to understand Republic is not a Democracy is not Socialism....sorry, I rant at times....I find myself more and more agreeing with my long deceased father about 'the good ole days' heck we had similar problems but we never made this much of a mess about them....Sociologically speaking this mess was unavoidable due to only one thing..the population explosion......I still like to think about 'us' being a Zoological experiment from 'a galaxy far far away' 

In my delusional state, I wonder if this could be an infringement of the federal laws and thus overridden? You know the 'commerce clause' since the ammo comes from out of state? Ahhhh, but then we're faced by the 9th circut the liberal court.

JA,

I have no intention of becoming a 'vendor' and only vendors are required to keep records, etc, I still don't believe private parties are covered. This bill/law was/is directed at 'gang members' that's why it got supported. I'm waiting for a response from my friend, and AS member, as to their interpretation. Figure that's a big part of laws..how can I make this judge believe my interpretation. SFi.


ALL.... I keep posting the link to the 'amended law'  READ IT YOURSELF, please   http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_0951-1000/ab_962_bill_20090904_amended_sen_v96.html


As with most things in life, if we live long enough we'll see what happens.
AIO

CSHR

[Johnnyappleseed]

Not sure about some other stuff CSHR -- but my Exxon stock report indicted they paid dearly for the Exxon Valdez accident.
Semper Fidelis Brother !
JA

[Pvt.Joker]

"In my delusional state, I wonder if this could be an infringement of the federal laws and thus overridden? You know the 'commerce clause' since the ammo comes from out of state?" Shshsh!!! Not so loud! 
" Ahhhh, but then we're faced by the 9th circut the liberal court."

Here's the nice part about the Ninth.
They are the most-reversed district court! That means that they are EXACTLY who you want to hear a case that you want to go to the SCOTUS with!

Remember, this is mostly detrimental to mail-order/internet sales. We are still allowed to buy ammo. It shouldn't take long for this to get overturned.
In the meantime, we can keep 'seeding AND bailing.

[henschman]

Ammo sales in stores just over the NV border are about to pick up tremendously.

[Johnnyappleseed]

Ammo sales in stores just over the NV border are about to pick up tremendously.

Henchman  yeah think
Along with ammo -- Nevada/Arizona has some good tire /clothing/small appliance stores too.
I sure  hope  -----   anti rights Cali does not miss the sales tax

[CSHR]

Johnny,

I was referring to Exxon's (the last pleading I know about) request for a 'review' of the fine they were to pay as the billions they still owed they felt were too much, and guess who agreed?

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/industries/energy/stories/DN-valdez_26bus.ART.State.Edition2.4e176ea.html

Some days I really wish I could look anyone/TV straight in the eyes and lie through my teeth like the president/congresscritters/major big business/really rich 2%, and other 'more equal' people do....and then I wake up and remember I'd have to give my soul.

I still think it would have been 'easier' or at least less problematic if 'we' had stopped this before it got this far.

Yes, NV,AZ,OR will reap the benefits.

CSHR

[NewMOe]

CTD responded with an extension of 01, January 2011:
http://www.facebook.com/cheaperthandirt/posts/490790374323?ref=notif&notif_t=feed_comment_reply
They do have a responsibility to follow the law,, just an update.
Cal Guns has assembled a list of cut off dates (may be out dated) of vendors and their cut off date to ship to ca.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=380846&highlight=ab962

The best course of action (IMHO) is to be sure that we and our friends and family do all we can to support the groups fighting with us against
AB962. Most of those I have met that are not involved in a firearms related sport or training have no idea of what it involves and how it will and can have
an affect on their personal interests.
I'm not sure if it has been posted yet but here is the Cal Guns WIKI for the AB962
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Ammo_Sales_.2F_AB962_Questions
Link to friendly rifle only ammo vendors
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=378054&highlight=ab962
Hope this helps.

[Johnnyappleseed]

Micheal - I do recall the limits on Exxon oil spill-- thank you for the link .

One way I have developed a degree of happiness and self satisfaction is by limiting the info I am forced to process.

Some years back -- i read where the person (entity) etc who wanted to register , restrict or consficate my firearm is an enemy. 

Since that time i have eliminated all newspapers , and magazines that are anti gun -- .  I refuse to pay for or watch TV  news --since most are anti gun . I would watch Fox if it were available.

By listening to friends (progun) as opposed to axe grinding ,clever manipulators my life has improved .
I highly recomend folks go to NRA -GOA - JPFO ect . and make the Anti's pay dearly by losing inflence and of course revenue .

I never guessed by cutting out these entities I could achieve a sense of satisfaction ,but it happened .
This is not meant to be a rant or preaching ect. Just a note as to how I feel .
Semper Fidelis Brother
JA

[Pvt.Joker]

By listening to friends (progun) as opposed to axe grinding ,clever manipulators my life has improved .
I highly recomend folks go to NRA -GOA - JPFO ect . and make the Anti's pay dearly by losing inflence and of course revenue .

I never guessed by cutting out these entities I could achieve a sense of satisfaction ,but it happened .
This is not meant to be a rant or preaching ect. Just a note as to how I feel .
Semper Fidelis Brother
JA

+1!

I got to that point a few years ago, and not just about gun rights. I decided not to engage people who are manipulative, unless it was strictly for sport. Life is better and simpler with the absence of these kinds of folks.

[eaglescouter]

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=5641099&postcount=1

AB-962 has been struck down.  California residents retain the ability to purchase ammunition via mail/internet.

[JustJeff]

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=5641099&postcount=1

AB-962 has been struck down.  California residents retain the ability to purchase ammunition via mail/internet.

[Cooper]

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=5641099&postcount=1

AB-962 has been struck down.  California residents retain the ability to purchase ammunition via mail/internet.

Hooray! or Huzzah! (if you're not offended by Britishism).
Congratulations to all of you that worked on this issue, and thank you to those of you that told me to shut up.
Cooper

[asminuteman]

.

[Pvt.Joker]

I would like to point out that this illustrates another way to "bail". We should all be doing what we can for Appleseed, but we should also be personally engaged in the political process. Membership/contributions to NRA/CRPA and CGF should be something every concerned gun owner considers. These (and other!) organizations are great "force multipliers", and without them, I doubt we'd be able to have an internet forum where we could even discuss Appleseed.

[CSHR]

CalGuns & NRA argued the case.........it was struck down because the language was too vague on what a pistol cartridge is.......so you can/should expect a quick revision and another go at this.

In the mean time:

"On Tuesday, Jan. 18, Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-N.Y.) introduced H.R. 308, the "Large Capacity Ammunition Feeding Device Act."  The bill would ban the manufacture and importation of new magazines that can hold more than 10 rounds of ammunition.  Unlike the magazine ban that was in effect from 1994 to 2004, her new bill would also make it illegal for the tens of millions of Americans who already own these magazines to sell or otherwise transfer them, even through inheritance. In a letter to her colleagues, Rep. McCarthy claimed, "The only reason for the existence of these devices is to be able to shoot as many people as quickly as possible." Yet her bill would allow the continued acquisition and possession of these magazines by law enforcement officers, who carry firearms to defend themselves and the public.  It would even allow these magazines to be transferred to law enforcement officers upon retirement, even though a retired officer's right to use firearms for self-defense is the same as any other private citizen's right."  NRA source.

Rep. McCarthy lost a husband 17 years ago to a shooting, and so we have another misguided zealot.





I no longer engage in debate with liberals/people who hate firearms/etc, but when they get going I listen and ask pointed questions of them.

When they calm down and ask me a question I reply with something along this line.....I was listening to you as closely as I could in order to determine if you are neurotic with phobia's, schizophrenic, or psychotic...and/or a danger to yourself or others, in which case I will be obliged to report you to the police to have you properly evaluated by a Psychiatrist. Your fear of inanimate objects doing you violence, combined with your determination to pass more laws to accomplish what all the previous ones haven't, and your inability to see the human factor in all of this is deeply disturbing. Continuing to attack the instruments used in violent behavior rather than the causes that influence the people who commit these atrocities is misplaced at best. Doing so in the cause of your 'feeling safe/safer' is disabling your ability to think and act rationally. I wish you well with your struggles and suggest you quickly find a counselor to assist you with them.

This response usually results in one of two outcomes, they either become seriously enraged and start with the epithets and stuttering as they puff themselves up and their face becomes reddened, or they go off on a more disjointed attempt to convince me they are in fact correct in all their postulations and how dare I say what I did.

I doubt I have 'made a convert' by my tactic, but then I think, did I really want....them...on my side?


CSHR

[Cooper]

Cooper dude...please at all times "DO " speak your mind, and I'm sorry if in the heated debate you were told to shut up....remember "it is NOT our way" to stop or smother free speech or the flow of ideas.

you are a welcome member in my camp any day
Ken

Ken, thanks for the invite, and it's dudette by the way.

Much to many people's dismay I nearly always speak my mind.  I was politely asked to butt out when my distaste of CA (having grown up in south LA) became much more vociferous than was appropriate.  I was not engaging in free speech, I was mud-slinging, and those that pointed it out where entirely correct.  I retracted the posts with apologies, and I salute those brave residents of the People's Republik that move forward the Appleseed Mission against daunting odds.

Those that stand and fight for their rights and their homes in the face of tyranny (large or small), are honoring those that shed their blood at Lexington and Concord and during the eight years of struggle that gifted us with the rights that we now enjoy.

California Appleseeders, I salute you!

Janelle

And CSHR, GREAT response to the sheeple's blithering, I may use it myself.

[asminuteman]

.

[Pvt.Joker]

CalGuns & NRA argued the case.........it was struck down because the language was too vague on what a pistol cartridge is.......so you can/should expect a quick revision and another go at this.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but this suit was brought by CRPA and NRA. Calguns wasn't involved. They are, however, the ones holding OOIDA v. Lindley in their back pocket as insurance against a "constitutionally acceptable" form of 962. See: http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/OOIDA_v._Lindley

In the mean time:

"On Tuesday, Jan. 18, Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-N.Y.) introduced H.R. 308, the "Large Capacity Ammunition Feeding Device Act."  The bill would ban the manufacture and importation of new magazines that can hold more than 10 rounds of ammunition.  Unlike the magazine ban that was in effect from 1994 to 2004, her new bill would also make it illegal for the tens of millions of Americans who already own these magazines to sell or otherwise transfer them, even through inheritance. In a letter to her colleagues, Rep. McCarthy claimed, "The only reason for the existence of these devices is to be able to shoot as many people as quickly as possible." Yet her bill would allow the continued acquisition and possession of these magazines by law enforcement officers, who carry firearms to defend themselves and the public.  It would even allow these magazines to be transferred to law enforcement officers upon retirement, even though a retired officer's right to use firearms for self-defense is the same as any other private citizen's right."  NRA source.

Rep. McCarthy lost a husband 17 years ago to a shooting, and so we have another misguided zealot.

The idea of allowing police officers more rights than "we the people" have is abhorrent and unconstitutional under the equal protection clause.

I no longer engage in debate with liberals/people who hate firearms/etc, but when they get going I listen and ask pointed questions of them.

When they calm down and ask me a question I reply with something along this line.....I was listening to you as closely as I could in order to determine if you are neurotic with phobia's, schizophrenic, or psychotic...and/or a danger to yourself or others, in which case I will be obliged to report you to the police to have you properly evaluated by a Psychiatrist. Your fear of inanimate objects doing you violence, combined with your determination to pass more laws to accomplish what all the previous ones haven't, and your inability to see the human factor in all of this is deeply disturbing. Continuing to attack the instruments used in violent behavior rather than the causes that influence the people who commit these atrocities is misplaced at best. Doing so in the cause of your 'feeling safe/safer' is disabling your ability to think and act rationally. I wish you well with your struggles and suggest you quickly find a counselor to assist you with them.

This response usually results in one of two outcomes, they either become seriously enraged and start with the epithets and stuttering as they puff themselves up and their face becomes reddened, or they go off on a more disjointed attempt to convince me they are in fact correct in all their postulations and how dare I say what I did.

I doubt I have 'made a convert' by my tactic, but then I think, did I really want....them...on my side?


CSHR

This is an interesting tactic, and I agree that there is no cure for stupid, or hoplophobia (the irrational fear of tools). However, many people get their opinions spoon-fed them on the liberal evening news, and a little logic may be all it takes to sway them.