Cheaper Than Dirt and California ammo sales

[JustJeff]

Saw this on their FaceBook page.... thought I'd share since I didn't see any posts about it:

Cheaper Than Dirt: When CA AB962 takes effect, it is our policy to also cease sales of ammunition to all law enforcement agencies located in California.
20 hours ago

Cheaper Than Dirt:   Effective January 1st 2011 we will stop selling ammunition to residents of California. If you're in California, we will accept orders until January 1st and will be able to ship ammunition to your CA address via FedEx Ground. Contact your local and state representative and encourage them to repeal AB 962 so that we can continue to sell ammunition to CA!
20 hours ago

You can find these posts here: http://www.facebook.com/cheaperthandirt?ref=nf&v=app_7146470109#!/cheaperthandirt?v=wall

[TaosGlock]

Wow!
Ronnie Barrett did a similar thing on 2003:
"If California were to ban the sale of the Barrett .50 cal rifle we will stop the sale and service of all Barrett products to all State Law Enforcement agencies of the state of California immediately and ask all small arms manufactures to consider similar action."-R.Barrett

We know one good thing, CA Appleseeder's are bailing at full speed.

[DesertDog]

If that's their stance...screw them!  I have purchased many non ammo products form them.  They have lost a customer

[Francis Marion]

DD, CTD's position sounds reasonable to me.... we (CA) enacted a bad law, and CTD is complying with the law- our law.

Also, if CTD doesn't sell to CA police departments, they are going to lose a lot of money for taking that position.  My opinion is that the Barrett position and the CTD positions are both admirable and principled, and thus it's incumbent on us to support them.  In my opinion, the police and the People should all be able to make the same firearms related choices.

The People, here and abroad, have to respond to these bad laws.  In fact, it reminds me of Patriots' agreements to not buy British goods- to make our dissatisfaction known by our economic choices.  I think that CTD is really trying to support us in CA by taking the Barrett line.       

[DesertDog]

DD, CTD's position sounds reasonable to me.... we (CA) enacted a bad law, and CTD is complying with the law- our law.

Also, if CTD doesn't sell to CA police departments, they are going to lose a lot of money for taking that position.  My opinion is that the Barrett position and the CTD positions are both admirable and principled, and thus it's incumbent on us to support them.  In my opinion, the police and the People should all be able to make the same firearms related choices.

The People, here and abroad, have to respond to these bad laws.  In fact, it reminds me of Patriots' agreements to not buy British goods- to make our dissatisfaction known by our economic choices.  I think that CTD is really trying to support us in CA by taking the Barrett line.       

I was under the impression that the internet law only applied to handgun ammo, therefore making it OK for rifle and.22lr.  If I'm wrong, then I'm in support of not selling to LEO's for the reason you mentioned.

Thankfully I have enough reloading supplies and .22lr that I will NOT be giving my fingerprints to buy ammo

[mtmisfit]

Therein lies the problem.

Part of the reason the ship is sinking is because it's only a concern if the bad law affects "me."

A bad law is a bad law even if it doesn't affect you personally. The NRA used that excuse last year when they stopped opposing a bad law because they got an exemption from it. That didn't change the fact that it was a bad law.

Preventing and/or eliminating these bad laws is also part of bailing......actually part of repairing the leaks that are making it necessary to bail in the first place.

Reminds me of something I have posted on my wall at work: "Fight for a cause greater than your own, or you'll wind up a one man army."

I support CTD and Barrett for their stance.

Out of curiosity, how is handgun ammunition defined? With the TC, XP-100, Striker, BF, etc. pistols all ammunition could be "handgun" ammunition.

[DesertDog]

Therein lies the problem.

Part of the reason the ship is sinking is because it's only a concern if the bad law affects "me."

A bad law is a bad law even if it doesn't affect you personally. The NRA used that excuse last year when they stopped opposing a bad law because they got an exemption from it. That didn't change the fact that it was a bad law.

Preventing and/or eliminating these bad laws is also part of bailing......actually part of repairing the leaks that are making it necessary to bail in the first place.

Reminds me of something I have posted on my wall at work: "Fight for a cause greater than your own, or you'll wind up a one man army."

I support CTD and Barrett for their stance.

Out of curiosity, how is handgun ammunition defined? With the TC, XP-100, Striker, BF, etc. pistols all ammunition could be "handgun" ammunition.

I'm not sure what your trying to say.  If your saying that I don't mind the law because I have taken measures to avoid submitting to this tyranny, that's a pretty bold accusation being that we've never met or corresponded.  If it's not what your saying, maybe you can elaborate.

I hate this law.  In the weeks before the SS agent's son passed it into law I burned up his phone from every phone I could get access to show my disapproval.  As well as urging anyone I knew to do the same whether they were a gun owner or not.

[mtmisfit]

If that's their stance...screw them!  I have purchased many non ammo products form them.  They have lost a customer

DD,

My statement was not directed at you personally, just on the comments posted. You chose to chastise CTD for their insistence that the police be treated the same as ordinary citizens. If every manufacturer refused to sell ammo in CA then the assembly would have to revisit the legislation or accept that their police have been disarmed.

Just because it has been signed into law doesn't mean the fight is over.

I'll stand by my comments based on my general observations of people not caring about the laws being passed as long as they don't affect their hobbies or reduce their free handouts. The ship wouldn't be sinking if people had paid attention to what was going on with their government.

[DesertDog]

It's tough to get my point across on the internet, which is one of the reasons I don't post much.  I was under the impression that internet sales refered to pistol ammo only and that CTD made a decision on their own to not sell to anyone in CA.  I disagreed with that.  

Further research showed me that my knowledge was incorrect and that all internet sales are banned and support CTD's stance.  I wholeheartledly agree that citizens should have access to the same weaponry as LEO's and the military.  I believe that a citizen should be able to walk into a store, negotiate the price of an M-60, exchange the money and walk out the door with the machine gun in the same way one buys a can of corn.

I agree that most people only care about what affects them and that it's the biggest problem in our society.  Especially among us "Liberty minded" people.  People hate gun control, but are OK with the government telling what I can't put in my own body, etc.

Hope that clears it up

[Pvt.Joker]

The law in question indeed specifies handgun ammo, but fails to define it. Therefore, CTD, along with many other online retailers, is halting shipments to PRK.
All ammo shipments are affected, because what lawyer in their right mind would advise their client to risk violating a law, however vague, and/or unconstitutional? Almost any rifle cartridge can be chambered in a T/C Contender, "proving" that the cartridge in question is handgun ammo.
That said, CTD is "enforcing" the law before it takes effect.

http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_0951-1000/ab_962_bill_20090226_introduced.html

[4Posterity]

First, I am not a lawyer or an expert in any way.  I have been concerned about the pending implementation of this law for over a year.  Out of my concern I have tried to research the effects of the law, and have had only limited success.  Recently I have spoken to three different local ammunition dealers regarding this law.  All three had the same info to share. 

They have been informed that the law will take effect in February and will be enforced by the appropriate law enforcement entities. 

They have no guidance from Cal DOJ on how to comply with the info gathering/storing requirements of the law other than the need to collect the mandated info and maintain the records for the specified length of time.  (The issue of how this personal and confidential information is collected and stored is at least as threatening as the effects on the acquisition of ammunition, but that deserves its own discussion)

They have no guidance on what exactly constitutes "Handgun Ammunition", no official list of "handgun ammunition", and no resource for determining what cartridge sales are "controlled". 

All three indicated that 22 LR ammunition would undoubtedly be considered handgun ammunition and would be subject to the sales restrictions, and at the present time, they all intend to treat 22 LR ammo as such until such time as they are certain that they are not violating the law by selling 22 LR as rifle ammunition. 

One of the three said that, baring changes to the law or specific information from DOJ regarding what constitutes "Handgun Ammunition", he would be restricting the sales of any cartridge for which a commercially manufactured handgun exists.  I asked him about the T/C Contender issue as brought up earlier, and he acknowledged that would mean most common rifle calibers would be included in his restricted list pending some formal ruling from DOJ.  The other two dealers were not certain what they would be doing, and said they were expecting guidance from DOJ on the matter. 

All three dealers told me that they would not risk being prosecuted for selling ammunition in violation of the new law.

One of the dealers told me that Federal BATF has issued a ruling/opinion/policy indicating that if any commercially manufactured handgun exists for a specific cartridge, that cartridge is a "Handgun Cartridge".  Cal-DOJ has not made a similar judgment, nor issued any official opinion on the matter that he is aware of.

Now, if you are here reading this you are undoubtedly plugged-into the whole firearms/ammunition/second amendment world, and may have stockpiled a lifetime supply of ammunition, but consider the folks who we are really trying to reach with the Appleseed message.  Thinking back on the last batch of people I recruited to attend an Appleseed event, I doubt any of them have any idea of the existence of this new law.  If I were to recruit them for a shoot in February, and then send them out to buy 350 to 500 round of 22LR ammo each for their LTR, they may not be able to legally do it.  For the kids it is even more onerous.  Under 18 folks cannot purchase firearms ammo of any kind, and this law now makes it a misdemeanor for a parent to provide more than 50 cartridges per month to his/her offspring.  So, if non-shooter dad wants to take his wife and two kids to an Appleseed and have say, 400 rounds of ammo for each member of the family, he and his wife will have to go to the sporting goods store every month for 8 months to legally acquire the ammo.

The window for having this law repealed by the California legislature will probably expire this week when our new Governor is sworn into office.  Arnold effectively shut out any ability for the legislature to repeal the law when he declared a budget emergency, thus prohibiting the legislature from discussion of any legislation other than the state budget.

Again, I am no expert on this issue, and what I included above is what I have been told, not what I have confirmed as absolute fact.  I've been told that there are many discussions of this on the various California-based forums, but have not had time to read through them all to find any factoids. 

This topic deserves much attention by us all. 

Mark

[Pvt.Joker]

This won't be repealed. While the rest of the states shifted toward the middle, PRK drifted farther left during the last election. All the same troublemakers are still there, along with some new ones.
However, there are three branches of government. The Legislature can't always get past the Judiciary, thankfully. In this particular case, Calguns (and SAF?) are going to sue over this in Federal court. All the geniuses there seem very optimistic of success in having this *#%&* law declared unconstitutional.

Standby....

[CSHR]

Goodness gracious, I just tried to read this thing.....       supposedly the 'amended' version....

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_0951-1000/ab_962_bill_20090904_amended_sen_v96.html

They did remove the 50 rd limit as far as I can see.
I didn't see where under 18 couldn't shoot under the supervision of their parent.
It does say cannot sell to under 21, BUT if you're 18-21 and the vendor believes you are using a rifle they can sell to you......yeah sure that'll happen.

I suspect it will affect AS shoots.

You get to provide a rt thumb print and valid ID, no telling where this will end up.


This one is interesting:
"(2) For purposes of this subdivision, "ammunition" shall include,
but not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed
loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a
firearm with a deadly consequence. "Ammunition" does not include
blanks."

And this one is more interesting since it states:"...who supplies, delivers, sells, or gives possession or control of, any ammunition..."  "...knows or using reasonable care should know..."

"SEC. 6.  Section 12317 is added to the Penal Code, to read:
   12317.  (a) Any person, corporation, or firm who supplies,
delivers, sells, or gives possession or control of, any ammunition to
any person who he or she knows or using reasonable care should know
is prohibited from owning, possessing, or having under his or her
custody or control, any ammunition or reloaded ammunition pursuant to
paragraph (1) or (4) of subdivision (b) of Section 12316, is guilty
of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not
exceeding one year, or a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars
($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment."

The lunatics ARE running the asylum.

Hoplophobia is a mental disorder and thus should be an automatic exclusion from holding an elected office.
"Schizophrenia is a psychotic disorder (or a group of disorders) marked by severely impaired thinking, emotions, and behaviors." People who believe in inanimate objects causing harm without the attendant human interaction, and/or continuing to do the same or similar things in hopes that different results will occur are excluded from this group because they have my best interests at heart and know that I really don't have the ability to care for myself and they should take care of me.

CSHR

[Antibubba]

Will C&R (Class 3 licensees) still be allowed to receive shipped ammo?

[JustJeff]

Will C&R (Class 3 licensees) still be allowed to receive shipped ammo?

Not from Cheaper Than Dirt. 

[Cooper]

post modified out of respect for our CA seeder's tireless work.
My apologies

Coop

[techres]

CA SB's,

Can you keep National up to speed on this and how it effects the program?  It would be especially important for outside instructors coming in.  Vital actually.

Thank You,
Techres

P.S. And thank you for fighting the good fight under pressures far harder than most other states.   

[featherblue]

Forget the concept of secession, the People's Republik of Kalifornia should be AMPUTATED by/FROM the United States.
Tough call for me, since my mother and sisters still live there, but the gangrenous limb needs to be separated from the body politic before it causes a fatal dissemination of liberty-toxic poisons leading to systemic collapse and the death of the Republic.

Just my opinion, YMMV

I am in 100% agreement with you!!! I am a sixth generation native of Kalifornicate. Wife and I left the state in 1993 and have not looked back.    Best decision we ever made. Now my son is stuck there as his home is worthless and he therefore has no equity value to invest in a new life in a free state.    He lives in the gold country where my family founded the town he lives in. Taken over by leftist dope smoking non tax paying duds.

-fb

[Francis Marion]

Although it's tempting to think like a modern, don't stop there.  

The Founders planned productive effort to help an afflicted member.
Let's remember where we came from, and profit thereby.  Nobody left behind.  

Folks, let's strive to keep this informative and, absent news, as brief as possible.  

[featherblue]

Although it's tempting to think like a modern, don't stop there.  

The Founders planned productive effort to help an afflicted member.
Let's remember where we came from, and profit thereby.  Nobody left behind.  

Folks, let's strive to keep this informative and, absent news, as brief as possible.  

Translation: To be censored . . . 

-fb

[JustJeff]

It hit me while I was commenting on a post at a different forum.... The issues with ammo and rifles in California today bear an eery resemblance to the seizing of powder, ball, cannon, and rifles in our past.  It got me to thinking about how many similarities there were regarding the times of 1765-1775 and the past twenty years.  I'm having a really bad case of 'deja vu' today.

[Cooper]

Although it's tempting to think like a modern, don't stop there.  

The Founders planned productive effort to help an afflicted member.
Let's remember where we came from, and profit thereby.  Nobody left behind.  

Folks, let's strive to keep this informative and, absent news, as brief as possible.  

Most respectfully, dearest FM,

I am a direct Swamp Fox descendant, and I am much aware of where we came from. I respectfully ask all to consider the number of patriot and patriot family deaths caused by those subservient to the "government" at the time of our Nation's contested birth.

I am working toward saving enough money to move my relatives.  The better solution would be to raise the money to elect sane, thoughtful people to office to govern there.  Hopefully the legal insanity such as this will make people in the other 49 states realize how fragile their rights are, and "they" will contribute to "them" to safeguard themselves.

End of commentary.

FM, you rock!

JustJeff, you've hit the nail on the head.

Coop

post modified out of respect for our CA seeder's tireless work.
My apologies

Coop

[techres]

I'm having a really bad case of 'deja vu' today.

And now it is time to find all the others who are also feeling the same and teach them the history of that feeling.  Think of how much easier to move and influence people when they too have that feeling of concern, fear, dread, and anger.  Think of how much more fertile that soil is than states where complacency is so strong that if a shoot is near hunting season history is dead.

Lemonade, even from non-lemons...

Not to make your challenges seem small, but they do create unique opportunities:

Tens of thousands of basement ammo hoarders wondering where they will get more ammo to store and hide, completely unaware of how misdirected that action is to our heritage.
Tens of thousands of internet connected gun owners typing frantically about "nothing we can do" when there are empty spots on our lines and much, much work to do.
Tens of thousands of people who have no where to go, but feel liberty leaking away and have no group to join who can make any kind of difference.  And yet here we are.

And these are just the already awake who simply need the direction of heritage and the motion of organization...

Now to the millions of fence sitters and sleepers who know little and care little.  Led by heart and with little on their minds but a nagging concern that things are going just a little too far.  They have the itch, but their hearts have not yet been broken by Mr. & Mrs. Davis, their minds not filled with the events of April 19th, and their concern not yet given direction and action as we all have.

They are waiting for you!

The law stinks.  But the opportunity it brings is still priceless.

And the future depends on what CA can do with it.

You have my hopes, prayers, support and thanks for staying and keeping in the fight.

[NewMOe]

Ken please do speak your mind. This is an example of an assembly gone mad and a weak liberal Governor ( the loseanator ) fawning for affection from the only ones that dont bash him for turning his back on the peolpe that elected him. 
Here is the post I made on the Cheaper than dirt facebook page, http://www.facebook.com/cheaper than dirt?v=wall&ref=nf

In respone to the no response from CTD about ammo sales and the "time to leave The Peoples Republik of Kalifornia" comments.

We have till Feb 2011. Time to find another source of product, maybe one that supports the Californians that are working to bring Ca back to the Founders principals.
As for leaving Ca, Keep in mind that what starts here will quickly be in your state soon. Some of us are still determined to make a change and get us back on track, if you don't have the backbone don't get in the way. The time to leave comment just shows the lack of commitment to the constitutional rights of all Americans.

This law is being looked at from many sides
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/2009_-_AB_962_De_Leon%2C_Ammunition At the bottom are the links for the leagal action

This also has an impact on transporting for delivery by air or truck.

[bob 210]

Unfortunately, this thread was for staying on top of important information about more oppressive laws that nobody here in CA voted on! As is typical of this forum, it has devolved into a CA bashing fest. I find it difficult to swallow useless and unproductive posts by folks not in this state or folks who felt it better to retreat and run away rather than stay and fight the good fight. CA is the hardest working state in Appleseed and I would appreciate it if you can't help bolster dedication to this program that you would stay off of this board. Thanx. I will be locking this thread now and I hope for those CA Instructors interested in continuing this and other important information do it on the "World of 210 and Beyond" board, so that we can nullify the negative banter against our efforts in this state.

[Fred]

Although it's tempting to think like a modern, don't stop there.   

The Founders planned productive effort to help an afflicted member.
Let's remember where we came from, and profit thereby.  Nobody left behind. 

Folks, let's strive to keep this informative and, absent news, as brief as possible. 

Translation: To be censored . . . 

-fb

    Translation: Not to be censored; to be encouraged to focus - to focus on being effective, rather than more complaining.

    In this program, we may complain a bit, but then we get to work fixing the problem.

    The genesis of Appleseed arose out of recognition that "complaining won't work, and never has - doing something to fix the problem is what is required..."

    So I'd suggest you re-read what techres has posted above, and let's stop complaining and start figuring how to squeeze the lemonade out of this.

    One central fact you can prob rely on: Californians have elected leadership which they are likely to be very unhappy with in the near future.

    As to the boycott of CA by CTD and other businesses - that has a long and honorable history -  it's how we got the Stamp Act and other Parliment-imposed taxations were repealed - by boycotting English goods.

    Sorry, Bob, you posted while I was typing this. For sure, let's not be bashing California - let's be helping our California Appleseeders - if not in some direct fashion, at least by offering them encouragement.

[DesertDog]

Unfortunately, this thread was for staying on top of important information about more oppressive laws that nobody here in CA voted on! As is typical of this forum, it has devolved into a CA bashing fest. I find it difficult to swallow useless and unproductive posts by folks not in this state or folks who felt it better to retreat and run away rather than stay and fight the good fight. CA is the hardest working state in Appleseed and I would appreciate it if you can't help bolster dedication to this program that you would stay off of this board. Thanx. I will be locking this thread now and I hope for those CA Instructors interested in continuing this and other important information do it on the "World of 210 and Beyond" board, so that we can nullify the negative banter against our efforts in this state.

Excatly.  And where to these CA haters come to when they need help? 

[JustJeff]

I posted this thread as a heads-up for those who didn't realize what was going on....

I appreciate CTD's stand that "If we cannot sell to the people, we will not sell to the government either," and I also understand why they announced/began suspension of sales earlier than required.  If a sale is in transit, and is not delivered until after the law goes into effect, the Cal govt could bring legal sanctions against CTD causing loss of their ability to do business elsewhere (If I were them I'd hate to lose MY license to sell those items elsewhere because of one state).  

Nowhere did CTD state that they didn't want patronage from Cali residents on items other than firearms and ammo... The are simply stating that, because of legal issues, they cannot sell certain items to CA residents.... They'd already suspended (a LONG time ago) sales of (most?) firearms to CA residents because of CA laws.  

Personally, I buy all of my ammo and related stuff locally to support local small business.... even if it means I pay a higher price for what I buy, and have never bought online.

I have a couple of 5-gal buckets you guys can have to bail with, and a place for you to stay when you pick them (and whatever other supplies you need) up.  Come visit for a week.

Added: BTW, I'm in Southern NM.... not CA.   

[Johnnyappleseed]

In reading all the above comments I am left to reflect my own complicity in voting for anti gun candidates 

Yes folks I voted for the 1 of the most anti gun presidents in US history -Every appointment by William J Clinton was against gun rights and US sovoreignty.

Even though friends tried to convince me a candidate was less bad than the one I choose -- I knew in my heart my choice was just --- Now if everyone would vote like me , liberty would be restored .

As a result we now have fed gov involved in firearm purchases i.e. Brady Bill.
Had I voted the incumbent ,bad as he was with restrictions on imported self loaders . We would still have states authority regarding waiting periods etc.

Friends ,please accept my apoligies for voting for an unelectable 3rd party billoinare .
JA

[JustJeff]

In reading all the above comments I am left to reflect my own complicity in voting for anti gun candidates 

Yes folks I voted for the 1 of the most anti gun presidents in US history -Every appointment by William J Clinton was against gun rights and US sovoreignty.

Even though friends tried to convince me a candidate was less bad than the one I choose -- I knew in my heart my choice was just --- Now if everyone would vote like me , liberty would be restored .

As a result we now have fed gov involved in firearm purchases i.e. Brady Bill.
Had I voted the incumbent ,bad as he was with restrictions on imported self loaders . We would still have states authority regarding waiting periods etc.

Friends ,please accept my apoligies for voting for an unelectable 3rd party billoinare .
JA

Don't feel lonely.... I too voted absentee for the idiot who withdrew after he garnered enough absentee votes to sway the election.  I was stationed in Arkansas at the time.....so I knew what the country was getting with "Slick Willy."