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Age restrictions in NY

Started by Spartan, September 02, 2010, 11:20:18 PM

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Spartan

Guys I have a question, under the NYS conservation law I think an NRA rifle instructor can instruct to youth 12 years old or older in a season when they will hunt.  So if we have an NRA instructor at an appleseed event does that mean that we can teach at 12YO in NYS if they will be hunting that year provided the NRA certified instructor is the one working with the youth?  This is just too complex....
"With your shield or on it"

B9

That is the way it is understood. 12 and older.
"It's very hard to engineer another countries liberation...people have to liberate themselves. Unfortunately in history, many people get killed..."
Medea Benjamin

Spartan

so we can have folks 12 and older shoot  in NY?
"With your shield or on it"

B9

Quote from: Spartan on September 03, 2010, 07:47:28 AM
so we can have folks 12 and older shoot  in NY?

Youths 12-16 can shoot firearms that use gunpowder at an indoor or outdoor range must be under the immediate supervision, guidence, and instruction of:
- A duly commisioned officer of the US Army/Navy/Marines/Coast Guard, or NY National Guard
- a US Citizin with small arms instruction certification provided by the Army/Navy/Marines, or NRA
- An adult with a hunter safety certificate

Youths under 12 can not legally shoot firearms with gunpowder propellent.
Youths under 12 can shoot air guns with the same restricitions as 12-16 have with gunpowder firearms.
"It's very hard to engineer another countries liberation...people have to liberate themselves. Unfortunately in history, many people get killed..."
Medea Benjamin

Spartan

That is great to know B9 thank you for clearing that up.  i am good on two or three of those.
"With your shield or on it"

gunville

I think our NY instructors are 100% OK on 12-16 YO's...

Almost all have NY hunter safety. The rest are military officers.

I'm not sure about IITs.

We should make sure we have this covered on every shoot - at least one. (I'll have to find my hunter safety certificate.)

FYI: if you don't, Hunter Safety classes are free (except for your time)... tis the season for these as well.
-----------------------------
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

franklinfarmer

> Youths under 12 cannot legally shoot firearms with gunpowder propellant.

I'm almost speechless, but can't help but comment:

Wow, you really are in occupied territory.
It is certain, I think, that the best government is the one that governs least. But there is a much-neglected corollary: the best citizen is the one who least needs governing. The answer to big government is not private freedom, but private responsibility.

--Wendell Berry, "The Loss of the Future" in The Long-Legged House  (1969)

The problem is not Democrats.  The problem is Republicans who lack the intellectual clarity to become libertarians and libertarians who lack the physical discipline to become riflemen.  ---Kenneth Royce

Fred


    OK, NY instructors! We have some hard and fast rules we need to follow at NY Appleseeds where 12-16 are students. (And we should make sure ALL local AS literature in NY clearly states "Min age: 12" - right?)

    Which means, high on your list of priorities, is making sure they are followed.

    If there's only one instructor there "qualified" to deal with kids, that instructor should be the one dealing with the kids.

    If the only instructor qualified to deal with kids is the SB, then we have to find out if it is allowed/sufficient, under NY law, for him to "in charge of" the instructors immediately supervising the kids, and/or whether "running the event" or "being in charge of the event" even if there's others "working the event" is sufficient under the statutory requirements.

    Do we have any lawyers yet among our NY Instructor Corps? If not, do any of you have lawyers as family members or in-laws - or even friends?

    It'd be nice to be covered by the legal opinion of a NY lawyer, even if I don't know how much protection that would give us - possibly enough to avoid a lawsuit or at least a prosecution - and maybe enough to win it.
"Ready to eat dirt and sweat bore solvent?" - Ask me how to become an RWVA volunteer!

      "...but he that stands it now, deserves the thanks of man and woman alike..."   Paine

     "If you can read this without a silly British accent, thank a Revolutionary War veteran" - Anon.

     "We have it in our power to begin the world over again" - Thomas Paine

     What about it, do-nothings? You heard the man, jump on in...

KodyJaret

I put this topic to a lawyer I'm acquainted w/,,,his reply :

Section 265.05 of the Penal law generally prohibits a minor under 16
from possessing a firearm-the exceptions are when licensed and hunting
and when undergoing instruction as provided under Section 265.20 of the
Penal Law, -it does say "immediate supervision".  Hope this helps.  A
link to the statute is below.  The usual disclaimer is this should not
be taken as a formal legal opinion- but the statute is fairly clear cut
and straight forward.

7. Possession, at an indoor or outdoor shooting range for the  purpose
  of  loading  and  firing, of a rifle or shotgun, the propelling force of
  which is gunpowder by a person under sixteen years of age but not  under
  twelve, under the immediate supervision, guidance and instruction of (a)
  a  duly commissioned officer of the United States army, navy, air force,
  marine corps or coast guard, or of the national guard of  the  state  of
  New York; or (b) a duly qualified adult citizen of the United States who
  has  been  granted a certificate as an instructor in small arms practice
  issued by the United States army, navy, air force or marine corps, or by
  the adjutant general of this state, or by the national rifle association
  of America, a not-for-profit corporation duly organized under  the  laws
  of  this  state;  or (c) a parent, guardian, or a person over the age of
  eighteen designated in writing by such parent or guardian who shall have
  a certificate of qualification in responsible hunting, including safety,
  ethics, and landowner relations-hunter relations, issued or  honored  by
  the  department  of  environmental  conservation; or (d) an agent of the
  department of environmental conservation appointed to conduct courses in
  responsible  hunting  practices  pursuant  to  article  eleven  of   the
  environmental conservation law.



http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/LAWSSEAF.cgi?QUERYTYPE=LAWS+&QUERYDATA=$$PEN265.20$$@TXPEN0265.20+&LIST=LAW+&BROWSER=BROWSER+&TOKEN=49195180+&TARGET=VIEW



Spartan

"With your shield or on it"

R1SGx2

Quote"immediate supervision". 
Does this mean one instructor to each youth shooter?
"Eyes of the Warrior - Always open"
"What's the weather got to do with it, lets go."
"Appleseed, where good people come together to save a nation."

Spartan

Good question...and it has to be qualified instructor
"With your shield or on it"

Rattlehead

Quote from: R1sgx2 on September 23, 2010, 11:49:51 PM
Quote"immediate supervision". 
Does this mean one instructor to each youth shooter?

I don't know what it is according to the letter to the law, but when I was on the BSA ranges as a 12-year-old scout, they were running one of two RSOs for an entire line of about 10 scouts, almost all of whom were between 12-16.  For what it's worth...

Josey Wales

..I am qualified, I have my hunter safety card, and I renew my hunting license every year..
..to hell with them fellows, buzzards gotta eat same as worms..

Big Matt

Does it actually have to be a hunter safety certificate or does a hunting license, which a hunter safety card is a prerequisite for, count?

2 clicks low

I'm not a lawyer and I don't live in NY, but I am a NRA instructor and an Illinois Hunter Education instructor. My 2cents:

It is normal and accepted NRA practice that an instructor may instruct a line. I teach at NRA summer camps where we usually have non instructor assistants and at most 2 instructors for a line of 10 kids.

And no, a hunting license is not a substitute for a hunter safety course unless it lists your hunter safety number on it. In most states people born before 1980 don't need hunter safety, they are grandfathered in. Also keep in mind that all hunter safety cards are equal. One issued in any state is good in any other state.

2 clicks low
"Semper Fritos" 1st. Chicago Chairborne

Spartan

In NY just having a hunting license does not give you qualification to instruct 12 year olds...As we said it must be one of the specified instructor qualifications.
"With your shield or on it"

Josey Wales

..My orange paper card is a "Hunter Education Certificate of Qualification" issued by the NY State DEC, it has a 5 digit number code on the upper right and an Instructors ID number on the bottom, it is a 10 hour course..
..to hell with them fellows, buzzards gotta eat same as worms..

sgtrock

So,, if someone here in our organization, knows someone in the NRA, maybe they should put in a good word for us to become,,,, well,,,, recognized by the NRA,,,, as Qualified Instructors,,, or we can just ask for birth certificates,,,, or pay the money for Their Course to become qualified, what maybe 10 -12hr course and at what 200 bucks,,, (Or What Ever It Is),,,  ,,,,,,another freedom lost,,,,,,Keep Appleseeding Folks,,,, I am of the firm belief that OUR
organization, is the one doing the most good for this country at this time,,,, enough said 

Anybody under the age of 35 looks young to me,,,,

sgtrock


nyrasgt


New York Hats,
   Am working on putting together an NRA Instructors class; have a local training counselor (the guy who can teach the class) who has run classes before for the Warren County Pistol Prelicensing Course instructors...
   Will advise re possible time scheduling, cost, etc...  A benefit of NRA Cert status is ability to take advantage of companies' (Smith, Ruger, Henry) Instructor Purchase Programs, @ appx 1/3 off list for their products.  Am in process of ordering 2 x S&W M&P 15-22s...more loaners, and saw 3-4 in use recently @ Saraspa AS...
Excelsior,
madMark
"Aim for a high mark and you will hit it.  No, not the first time, nor the second, and maybe not the third. But keep on aiming and keep on shooting,
for only practice will make you perfect.
Finally, you will hit the bulls-eye of success."
-Annie Oakley Butler
A Rifleman Persists
"Nemo me impune lacessit."  Montresor, via E. A. Poe, 1846

Big H

#20
Quote from: KodyJaret
http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/LAWSSEAF.cgi?QUERYTYPE=LAWS+&QUERYDATA=$$PEN265.20$$@TXPEN0265.20+&LIST=LAW+&BROWSER=BROWSER+&TOKEN=49195180+&TARGET=VIEW

I Am Not A Lawyer. I Am Not From NY. This is my attempt at interpretation:

Quote from: Section 265.20 a. 7. (c)
   7. Possession, at an indoor or outdoor shooting range for the  purpose
 of  loading  and  firing, of a rifle or shotgun, the propelling force of
 which is gunpowder by a person under sixteen years of age but not  under
 twelve, under the immediate supervision, guidance and instruction of ...
 (c) a parent, guardian, or a person over the age of
 eighteen designated in writing by such parent or guardian
who shall have
 a certificate of qualification in responsible hunting, including safety,
 ethics, and landowner relations-hunter relations, issued or  honored  by
 the  department  of  environmental  conservation
;
Josey Wales' card qualifies
Quote from: Josey Wales on October 02, 2010, 10:36:03 PM
My orange paper card is a "Hunter Education Certificate of Qualification" issued by the NY State DEC
NYS DEC also honors certificates from all other states
Quote from: http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/hunting.htmlAll hunters must take or have passed a sportsman's education class.

Sportsman education certificates from all other states are valid in New York
and are required for the purchase of a hunting or trapping license.

But Josey may need to be designated in writing by the parent or guardian at each Appleseed when teaching rifles or airguns.

This is the DEC parental form for Minors Hunter Education
Quote from: http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/wildlife_pdf/permparent.pdfPermission to Handle and Shoot Firearms
I, _________________________________________________________
(Print name of parent or legal guardian above.)
am the parent or legal guardian
(Circle one choice above.)
of ___________________________________________________,
(Print name of student above.)
whose date of birth is _____________
(Print birth date above.)
and I hereby give my permission for him or her to possess a rifle, shotgun, or airgun for the purpose of loading and firing under the immediate supervision, guidance, and instruction of a certified hunter education instructor or assistant instructor certified in hunter education by the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation, during a hunter education course.
Signature_______________________________________  
(Parent or legal guardian sign above.)  
Date ______________
(Print today's date above.)
Telephone Number__________________
(Phone number above.)

QuoteNOTE TO INSTRUCTORS:  This form is your proof that instructors are authorized by the parent or guardian of the student whose name appears on this form to supervise that student in firearms handling and shooting exercises in your courses.  Refer to your Sportsman Education Instructor Policies and Procedures Manual for rules regarding student age requirements and use of firearms by minors in courses.  Keep this form for at least one year after the completion of the course.

Again, IANAL and you may want to check with one, but this draft may help

Quote from: draftPermission to Handle and Shoot Firearms for Appleseed in NY State for Minors under age 16.
I, _________________________________________________________
(Print name of parent or legal guardian above.)
am the parent or legal guardian
(Circle one choice above.)
of ___________________________________________________,
(Print name of student above.)
whose date of birth is _____________
(Print birth date above. Minimum age 12 years for rifles. Under 12 may use airguns with this form.)

and I hereby give my permission for him or her to possess a rifle, shotgun, or air or gas or spring gun for the purpose of loading and firing under the immediate supervision, guidance, and instruction of an Appleseed Instructor or Instructor-In-Training over the age of eighteen with a certificate of qualification in responsible hunting issued or honored by the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation (in NY a Hunter Education Certificate of Qualification, NYS DEC honors Sportsman education certificates from all other states) during an Appleseeed marksmanship and heritage education course.
Signature_______________________________________  
(Parent or legal guardian sign above.)  
Date ______________
(Print today's date above.)
Telephone Number__________________
(Phone number above.)

QuoteNOTE TO INSTRUCTORS:  This form is your proof that instructors are authorized by the parent or guardian of the student whose name appears on this form to supervise that student in firearms handling and shooting exercises in your courses.  Keep this form for at least one year after the completion of the course.

NRA small arms instructors don't need this form.

Big H

Quote7-c.  Possession  for  the  purpose of loading and firing, of a rifle,
 pistol or shotgun, the propelling force of  which  may  be  either  air,
 compressed  gas  or  springs, by a person under sixteen years of age but
 not  under  twelve,
 under  the  immediate  supervision,  guidance   and
 instruction  of ... (c) a parent, guardian, or a person over the age of
 eighteen designated in writing by such parent or guardian who shall have
 a certificate of qualification in responsible hunting, including safety,
 ethics, and landowner relations-hunter relations, issued or  honored  by
 the department of environmental conservation.
Even air gun shooters 12-16 need written designation, unless the Hat is NRA Instructor.
Quote
   7-d.  Possession,  at  an  indoor  or  outdoor  shooting range for the
 purpose of loading and firing,  of  a  rifle,  pistol  or  shotgun,  the
 propelling  force of which may be either air, compressed gas or springs,
 by a person under twelve years of age
, under the immediate  supervision,
 guidance  and  instruction  of ... (c) a parent, guardian, or  a
 person  over the age of eighteen designated in writing by such parent or
 guardian who shall have a certificate of  qualification  in  responsible
 hunting,   including  safety,  ethics,  and  landowner  relations-hunter
 relations,  issued  or  honored  by  the  department  of   environmental
 conservation.
Under-12 airgun shooters also need written designation.

All NYS EIPs should add
State Laws to be aware of: additional NYS parental permission form needed for ages 12-16, or for air rifles ages under 12.

This will no longer be needed when NY Hats are also NRA Instructors.

Big Matt

Are any downstate Appleseed Instructors or IIT's NRA certified? Or does anyone know how quickly we all could become NRA Basic Rifle Instructors? How much prior experience does one need? I am familiar with .22LR semi's and bolts, own a lever gun and an AR. Do I need High Power experience?

2 clicks low

Quote from: Big Matt on October 03, 2010, 03:49:15 PM
Are any downstate Appleseed Instructors or IIT's NRA certified? Or does anyone know how quickly we all could become NRA Basic Rifle Instructors? How much prior experience does one need? I am familiar with .22LR semi's and bolts, own a lever gun and an AR. Do I need High Power experience?

If you are a marksman you have enough experience.
The course should take 2 days, one is NRA Basic Instructor Training and the other is the Course.

The NRA's instructor website is:
http://www.nrainstructors.org/searchcourse.aspx

2cl
"Semper Fritos" 1st. Chicago Chairborne

nyrasgt

Troops,
    Per previous post - NRA Cert Instr class is 2 days and NRA Training Counselor charges what he (or she) chooses, then $30 to NRA for cert certificate and ID card, renewable by mail @ 3 yrs.  Once you have one certification, a number of others are doable on-line or via home study, including NRA RSO...
   Nra Cert Coach is another couple of days, and Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor is a 5 day class, @ $525...
plus a range fee.  I hosted one of these in 2006 @ Hudson Falls Fish and Game, the first class given in NYS in (according to the NRA) many years...class was attended by folks from all over the country, e.g. 2 from Hawaii, 2 Blackwater folk (no kidding!), head of college security @ Howard University, among others...am thinking about trying to host another one of these next Spring @ HF...would likely be during spring vacation...
   Will post as I receive info from local TC... same for $4-5 CPR/AED/First Aid class...and if anyone interested, is looking like I'll be teaching a NYS Security Guard class @ Adirondack Community College in the Spring...
Excelsior,
madMark
"Aim for a high mark and you will hit it.  No, not the first time, nor the second, and maybe not the third. But keep on aiming and keep on shooting,
for only practice will make you perfect.
Finally, you will hit the bulls-eye of success."
-Annie Oakley Butler
A Rifleman Persists
"Nemo me impune lacessit."  Montresor, via E. A. Poe, 1846

R1SGx2

Again,

Quote
"immediate supervision". 
Does this mean one instructor to each youth shooter?

Youths 12-16 can shoot firearms that use gunpowder at an indoor or outdoor range must be under the immediate supervision, guidence, and instruction of:
- A duly commisioned officer of the US Army/Navy/Marines/Coast Guard, or NY National Guard
- a US Citizen with small arms instruction certification provided by the Army/Navy/Marines, or NRA
- An adult with a hunter safety certificate

Again, does this mean one instruct to each 12 - 16 year olds, if I was watching a portion of the line and with one shooter two shooters away from the 12 - 16 year old, and bent over talking, is that immediate supervision to the 12 - 16 year old two shooters away behind me?
We can hold 100 pieces of paper of certifications, but what is the legal definition of IMMEDIATE SUPERVISION?
"Eyes of the Warrior - Always open"
"What's the weather got to do with it, lets go."
"Appleseed, where good people come together to save a nation."

nyrasgt

MR,
   Doubt even lawyers will venture a definition.  When I coached QHS Varsity Rifle team, I supervised/coached the (shooting) line.  5 points @ the HS range, up to 24 @ USMA, West Point.  We have Hunter Safety Instructors, 4H Instructors, NRA Instructors - all meet, I believe, NY's standard...
   Still working on scheduling an NRA Instructor class...
Excelsior,
madMark
PS  Looking good for DB F&G Nov, '10, March, '11 IBC, May, '11 AS, and Oct/Nov, '11 AS...
      When are the Saraspa membership meetings? Maybe they'd be interested in a CPR/AED class...and we could figure out way of contacting the Wilton club...
"Aim for a high mark and you will hit it.  No, not the first time, nor the second, and maybe not the third. But keep on aiming and keep on shooting,
for only practice will make you perfect.
Finally, you will hit the bulls-eye of success."
-Annie Oakley Butler
A Rifleman Persists
"Nemo me impune lacessit."  Montresor, via E. A. Poe, 1846

R1SGx2

Immediate Supervision I hope never gets anyone in AS in a jam, the word immediate here is key.
Saraspa Saturday the 2nd did an NRA RSO Safety Class, and last year did  NRA Instructor Classes in Rifle and Pistol / Doing a DEC Hunter Ed Class this month. On DEC Calendar.

Stuck on Immediate Supervision, Suspect AS dropping 12 -16 year olds on line in New York State.
"Eyes of the Warrior - Always open"
"What's the weather got to do with it, lets go."
"Appleseed, where good people come together to save a nation."

sgtrock

#28
Quote from: nyrasgt on October 03, 2010, 07:36:51 PM
Troops,
   Per previous post - NRA Cert Instr class is 2 days and NRA Training Counselor charges what he (or she) chooses, then $30 to NRA for cert certificate and ID card, renewable by mail @ 3 yrs.  Once you have one certification, a number of others are doable on-line or via home study, including NRA RSO...
  Nra Cert Coach is another couple of days, and Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor is a 5 day class, @ $525...
plus a range fee.  
QuoteI hosted one of these in 2006 @ Hudson Falls Fish and Game, the first class given in NYS in (according to the NRA) many years...class was attended by folks from all over the country, e.g. 2 from Hawaii, 2 Blackwater folk (no kidding!), head of college security @ Howard University, among others...
And all these people had sponsors with very deep pockets that paid to send thier employees to the school,, My question or statement still stands,,,, How do we get NRA Recognition as Instructors,,, Or are we not good enough for them,,, I am A Life Member of the NRA, alls that seemed to have done for me is stop the weekly junk mail from coming to my house,,, I teach Junior Rifle at my club and You Do Not Need To Be NRA Certified,,, been that way for decades,,,, Guys,,, 12 yrs old or older on line,,,, Drive On With The Mission, I type with very heavy fingers that are rattling the house,,, Who is gonna sponsor us for these classes????,,,, If These questions cannot be answered get back to work and prepare for your next Appleseed Shoot,,, So we can wake this state up,,, wake the country,,, so we can get people in office that will do things that need to be done
Quoteam thinking about trying to host another one of these next Spring @ HF...would likely be during spring vacation...
  Will post as I receive info from local TC... same for $4-5 CPR/AED/First Aid class...and if anyone interested, is looking like I'll be teaching a NYS Security Guard class @ Adirondack Community College in the Spring...
Excelsior,
madMark

sgtrock

Quote from: R1sgx2 on October 04, 2010, 05:00:24 PM
Immediate Supervision I hope never gets anyone in AS in a jam, the word immediate here is key.
Saraspa Saturday the 2nd did an NRA RSO Safety Class, and last year did  NRA Instructor Classes in Rifle and Pistol / Doing a DEC Hunter Ed Class this month. On DEC Calendar.

QuoteStuck on Immediate Supervision, Suspect AS dropping 12 -16 year olds on line in New York State.
1SG,,These Young People Have Got To Be On The Line,,, They Are Our Posterity,,,