Age restrictions in NY

[Josey Wales]

October 30th for $180 in Nassau County Long Island you can take the "NRA Instrutor Rifle Sooting Course" this is the course we AS Instructor need to fix this issue from NYS...
...Hey ho let's go!!
..Who is in???......,If we get 6 shooters we pay for 5......

[Spartan]

Josey, that's a great deal and $20.00 cheaper than what I paid.  Great find.

[gunville]

Hunter safety course is FREE

[gunville]

Guys - let's put all this to rest.

I've asked about "Immediate Supervision"

No - you don't have to be standing next to them one-on-one.

According to a DEC officer: The "immediate" supervision is specified because they don't want your son/daughter a half mile away from your deer stand while "under your supervision." (i.e. just because you brought them to the woods you still need to be able to keep an eye on them.)

I've co-taught Boy Scouts rifle shooting with a DEC officer who happens to be a Scout Leader. There were two of us to about 8 scouts (and our limiting factor was rifles, not the law)  He was far less attentive than roving RSO's, believe me.

The scout leaders - even the DEC Officer - only had NY Hunter Safety.

BTW: Appleseed line safety is far superior to what I see on the boy scout line.
(Since I've been on the trail informal firing lines of "winks and nods" make me nervous.)

Again,

Quote
"immediate supervision". 
Does this mean one instructor to each youth shooter?
Youths 12-16 can shoot firearms that use gunpowder at an indoor or outdoor range must be under the immediate supervision, guidence, and instruction of:
- A duly commisioned officer of the US Army/Navy/Marines/Coast Guard, or NY National Guard
- a US Citizen with small arms instruction certification provided by the Army/Navy/Marines, or NRA
- An adult with a hunter safety certificate
Again, does this mean one instruct to each 12 - 16 year olds, if I was watching a portion of the line and with one shooter two shooters away from the 12 - 16 year old, and bent over talking, is that immediate supervision to the 12 - 16 year old two shooters away behind me?
We can hold 100 pieces of paper of certifications, but what is the legal definition of IMMEDIATE SUPERVISION?

[Another D.O.M.]

Guys - let's put all this to rest.

I've asked about "Immediate Supervision"

No - you don't have to be standing next to them one-on-one.

According to a DEC officer: The "immediate" supervision is specified because they don't want your son/daughter a half mile away from your deer stand while "under your supervision." (i.e. just because you brought them to the woods you still need to be able to keep an eye on them.)

I've co-taught Boy Scouts rifle shooting with a DEC officer who happens to be a Scout Leader. There were two of us to about 8 scouts (and our limiting factor was rifles, not the law)  He was far less attentive than roving RSO's, believe me.

The scout leaders - even the DEC Officer - only had NY Hunter Safety.

BTW: Appleseed line safety is far superior to what I see on the boy scout line.
(Since I've been on the trail informal firing lines of "winks and nods" make me nervous.)

Thank you Gunville!

So for our purposes, Immediate Supervision means the instructor needs to be within sight of, and within reasonably quick reach of, the shooters (according to the DEC officer).
MJA

[Another D.O.M.]

I hope this update provides further clarification of the "immediate supervision" question.

I spoke today with someone who is 'connected' on several levels - the individual is an officer of the NYSRPA, sits on the Board of the NRA, and is an investigator for the NYSP.  I asked specifically about this statute and the "immediate supervision" question.

It is generally agreed within the NYS law enforcement community that "immediate supervision" refers to a supervised firing line that adheres to generally accepted safety guidelines, including a safety briefing and discussion of the safety rules and one or more duly certified safety officers (as defined elsewhere within the statute).  In the case of Appleseed events, we use a Line Boss and at least two RSOs for each line; and multiple instructors where available.  We also typically assign an instructor to keep a close eye on younger shooters to be certain safety guidelines are adhered to.  To satisfy the requirements of the statute, the Line Boss and RSOs should be duly certified as provided within the statute.

The term "immediate supervision" does not mean one-on-one instruction, and the NYSRPA lobbied heavily to ensure that the term "one-on-one" was not included in the statute.

Appleseed's standardized safety procedures are sufficient to satisfy the intent of the NY statute as long as there are duly certified instructors on the line.  I don't think anyone can deny that lawyers are paid very well to manipulate the intent of the law when it comes to civil matters - that's why RWVA has a liability insurance policy.  Of course, strict adherence to our safety rules and procedures, proper attention to ALL shooters on the line and prompt correction or action when required is the best way to prevent such things from arising.

I also asked about the likelihood of having Appleseed instructors recognized and certified by the NRA as 'duly certified' for the purposes of this statute, considering the extent of training our instructors undergo.  This individual said our certification process is certainly far more intensive than that of the NRA, and there should be no reason why our instructors cannot be certified by the NRA as well.  He is going to bring this to the attention of the appropriate individuals within the NRA and will work to make this a reality as quickly as possible.  No guarantees of course, but this is a big step in the right direction.

Comments and/or questions are welcome!
MJA

[nyrasgt]

That said...and while we're waiting, the 2 NRA Instructor classes (Jan 7-8-9 Pistol and Jan 14-15-16) for $90 + $35 for RSO Cert are BOTH a go...believe 13 signed up for pistol and 6 for rifle...@ Hudson Falls Fish and Game...
  Now we have to get working on the CPR/AED for $5 classes...while I take my EMT Recert class (hi, Nick).
Excelsior,
mad

[R1SGx2]

A/DOM,

Tango Yankee X's 2, Good job - Answered one question, and kept open the door for NRA / cross certification.
Nice work... Would be smart for NRA to recognize us as NRA Rifle instructors as would probably add to their membership if the were to say that they certify AS instructors provided they are an active and current member of NRA, just a thought...

[nyrasgt]

Folks,
   Will attempt to reach out to 4H and find out how they get around law - or if they also wait till 12...
Excelsior,
mad

[jmdavis]

A/DOM,

Tango Yankee X's 2, Good job - Answered one question, and kept open the door for NRA / cross certification.
Nice work... Would be smart for NRA to recognize us as NRA Rifle instructors as would probably add to their membership if the were to say that they certify AS instructors provided they are an active and current member of NRA, just a thought...

There is value to the NRA training, I know that I learned some things in the Rifle Instructor class that I took in November. Their resources and methods have value particularly when dealing with inexperienced shooters. I believe that most AS instructors could benefit from the NRA's Rifle Instructor class.

[dwarven1]

Just wondering: what's the definition of "small arms"?
"- a US Citizen with small arms instruction certification provided by the Army/Navy/Marines, or NRA"

As I'm an NRA Instructor certified in Basic Pistol. Haven't taken the Rifle module yet.

[Another D.O.M.]

If I'm not mistaken, the military considers 'small arms' to be those that are hand held as opposed to mounted.
MJA

[nyrasgt]

ADOM et. al.,
   Believe you are correct - and active mil folk chime in here, if not...
Small arms carried-issued-used by individuals, as opposed to (as ADOM said) mounted weapons, or, alternatively, crew-served weapons.  E.G., a Garand-M14-BAR-M1 carbine, etc., as well as all sidearms are small arms; M2 (ma deuce) - not so much.  Expect M60 is just barely small arms...
Excelsior and enjoy the holidays; lots of ammo in the kevlar stockings...
madMark
PS  Have S&W contact for extending their Instructor Purchase Program to AS RHIs; the two NRA Instructor classes
  (Jan 7-8-9 Pistol and Jan 14-15-16 Rifle are both goes; believe appx 14 registered for pistol and 6 rifle - contact me if anyone still interested in squeezing in for 1/3 usual cost rather than waiting till next classes some time in Spring or  Summer...

[Earl]

M-60 is a crew served machine gun, it can be used by one person for a limited time, but most effective and designed for crew served.

[gunville]

I think we can rule out teaching youngsters the finer points of the M60...
Besides - class 3 is a ny-no-no

I understood "small arms" to mean essentially anything but artillery (and armor.)