Civil Air Patrol shoot 6/15/2010

[AZOpie]

I have been asked to coordinate a shooting event with the Civil Air Patrol at Evergreen Aviation in Marana, AZ.

Here are the specifics:

The encampment commander has allocated from 0745 to 1145 on 6/15/10 for range / training time.
We will have cadets from all over the state and lots of them - 130 to be exact! There are 100 basic (attendee) cadets and 30 cadet cadre staff this year.
I am working with the 161st Air Refueling Wing rifle team to secure whatever .22's they have, and the team captain has commited to providing the ammo as well. I am also reaching out to the state marksmanship coordinator to see if more rifles can be obtained at that level. I am informed that the MAC-7 regionals are coming up, so the Army and Air Guard teams will be putting in practice sessions very close to this event. Being that military firearms will be used, there will be some presence from the National Guard at the event.

I am looking for bodies for the event, I know it's short notice /  half day / during the work week, but it's a golden opportunity to expand the program in Arizona. Since cadets come from all over the state for this encampment, it's a great opportunity to spread the word of the program far and wide in AZ, not to mention a chance to introduce the NG here to the program. I will post more info as I get it.

AZO

[AZRedhawk44]

OK, 2 weeks out.

We need to know:

-Who is responsible for developing a Course of Fire or event syllabus?
-What instructor resources will be available to us from the AZ NG, or are we to be augmentative instructor resources to their program?
-Can we run off-range drills with some sort of rifle equipment for sling usage and position training?  Can that include dry-fire somehow (which implies the need for trigger groups, receivers and sights rather than just empty stocks)?


AZOpie:  As our liaison, these questions will have to be relayed by you to them, and the answers returned so that we can develop an appropriate game plan.

[AZOpie]

OK, 2 weeks out.

We need to know:

-Who is responsible for developing a Course of Fire or event syllabus?
-What instructor resources will be available to us from the AZ NG, or are we to be augmentative instructor resources to their program?
-Can we run off-range drills with some sort of rifle equipment for sling usage and position training?  Can that include dry-fire somehow (which implies the need for trigger groups, receivers and sights rather than just empty stocks)?


AZOpie:  As our liaison, these questions will have to be relayed by you to them, and the answers returned so that we can develop an appropriate game plan.

RWVA is taking the lead, so we need to develop the COF/POI for the event. Verified this is acceptable with the encampment commander via phone just a few minutes ago.

I will get back with answers to the other questions as soon as I have answers. I expect there won't be a problem with running drills, but dry-fire may be the exception as that would still need to be done on the range for safety, so it depends on the range size, which I do not have the info on yet.

[AZRedhawk44]

Will we be responsible for running the range, and be permitted to do so under our SOP's, or do they have mandatory SOP's for operation of their range?  If so, what are they?

[AZOpie]

Working on contacting the person in charge to get the rules. Site location and picture annotations have been confirmed by the encampment commander.

32 degrees 31 minutes 04.55 seconds North
111 degress 19 minutes 04.62 seconds West

[AZRedhawk44]

Got it.

Using Google Earth's measuring tools, we have two ranges.  One is 50 yards long, the other is 25 yards long.  A third dirt circle is about 60 yards in diameter and would be suitable as a place to train SHF's/slings if we can find a way to run both ranges simultaneously.

That being said... we'll probably only be able to run one range due to the number of rifles available, which makes the other range available for SHF/sling training.

[AZOpie]

Just got off the phone with Maj. S. He's is committing to himself and 3 intructors from the his training unit to be there. Also willing to bring air rifles (possibly for use as a replacement for dry fire), a few M-16's and maybe 10 rounds per cadet of .223 to go along with the .22 LR training. He's got support equipment (PA, bullhorns, etc.) to bring and does not mind assuming the support role. He will also bring out some static display goodies - M-14's, Garands, M-240's, Ma Deuce, etc. He, and his staff are well versed in running rapid training environments. 22lr ammo is taken care of - I have 10k already drawn and there's more to be had if needed.

[henschman]

I'm glad to hear about this shoot -- I used to be in the CAP back in Jr. High and High School.  The thought had never occurred to me to talk to the local squadrons about getting their guys to a shoot or putting one on for them, but I think its a great idea.

[AZRedhawk44]

Assuming 125 cadets, and 40 minutes a piece on the firing line running 25 cadets per session:

We can run 1 sheet of squares, for 25 rounds.  

Initial prep time of 3 minutes for 1st time at the rifles, then 60 second preps and 60 second trips down range.

-1 square for sling usage and prone SHF. (60 seconds for 5 shots)
-1 square for 6-steps. (60 seconds for 5 shots)
-1 square for NPOA on a single target. (60 seconds for 5 shots)
-2 squares for NPOA shift and Rifleman's Cadence. (60 seconds for 10 shots)

25 rounds.  11 minutes at this idealized pace.  Call it 15 minutes after line clearing, target stapling, etc.

Then, a pair of Classification AQT's, side by side.  

30 second prep periods.  (Can we even accomplish a 30 second prep, including mag prepping and sling-up/position building? I dunno.)

-Standing twice.  5rds x 2.  60 seconds each, no trip downrange.
-Seated twice.  5rds x 2.  30 seconds each, no trip downrange, no transitions.
-Prone rapid fire once.  10rds x 1.  60 seconds, no trip downrange, no transitions.
-prone with NPOA confirmation once.  6rds x 1.  60 seconds.

Downrange, find an example target.  Give 5 minutes for some meaningful discussion of targets.

36 rounds.  12 minutes at this idealized pace, plus the 5 minute lecture.  Call it 20 minutes.

We're now at 61 rounds and 35 minutes.  Again, idealized.  Realistically... 40-50 minutes if we bust them hard.

Total round consumption for 125 cadets is 7625 rounds.


Things that will drag this time down:

-tube fed magazines.
-bolt actions with internal magazines that can't be removed.
-huge variances in types of rifles to clear or magazines to prep on the line.
-loop sling usage instead of hasty.  Unfortunate... but we have to look at what we can accomplish in our allotted time.

[NEWGUY556]

I want in.
But I got a Jury Duty Summons for the 14th. Let me see if I can postpone it, and sneak out of work that day.
Or Maybe Jury Duty lasts for 2 days instead of 1. 
Postponed Jury Duty until July. Count me in.
We are talking about Just 1 day for AZ instructors correct? 6/15. I need to beg for the time off.
I am willing to Loan out a 10/22 LTR and an M4 if needed.

[AZOpie]

I now have the POC info and will move forward with contacting him and arranging a site visit - possibly tomorrow.

[AZOpie]

I just got word there are hotel type rooms on site and the dining is reasonable. I will get rates tomorrow. Shoot, any instructor that comes I will personally cover food and housing for Monday and Tuesday if needed.

[TaosGlock]

I just got word there are hotel type rooms on site and the dining is reasonable. I will get rates tomorrow. Shoot, any instructor that comes I will personally cover food and housing for Monday and Tuesday if needed.

Yeah and the food is great in that area!
Just sent a PM on the PM thread, but BlueFeather and I are in!

[AZOpie]

I just got word there are hotel type rooms on site and the dining is reasonable. I will get rates tomorrow. Shoot, any instructor that comes I will personally cover food and housing for Monday and Tuesday if needed.

Yeah and the food is great in that area!
Just sent a PM on the PM thread, but BlueFeather and I are in!

Thank you for committing to this event  

This brings us to 2 Senior Instructors (TaosGlock and Bluefeather), 1 Shoot Boss (AZRedhawk44), 3 IIT1's (Newguy556, AZBinary, and myself), and 4 National Guard instructors. Waiting to hear on some possible additional high power people as well. One very important person told me today "do good", it is so.

TG and BF, I might just be following you back.  I start a vacation on the 17th and will be headed out your way before I take the family through CO this year.

AZO

[AZOpie]

I want in.
But I got a Jury Duty Summons for the 14th. Let me see if I can postpone it, and sneak out of work that day.
Or Maybe Jury Duty lasts for 2 days instead of 1.  
Postponed Jury Duty until July. Count me in.
We are talking about Just 1 day for AZ instructors correct? 6/15. I need to beg for the time off.
I am willing to Loan out a 10/22 LTR and an M4 if needed.

Thank you sir for stepping up! This is just 1/2 a day, but by the time travel is done,it's a full day. I am willing to pay for billets and food if you want to start fresh - there is housing / dining on site. Just 6/15, 0745 to 1145...


AZO

[AZRedhawk44]

TG, BF:  You guys are welcome to stay at my new place if you're looking for somewhere to crash the night before.  Should be about an hour's drive from my home to Marana, which is just north of Tucson.

We don't need LTR's, so much as we need demo stocks.  We should have enough rifles (provided by them) to fill the firing line of one of the shooting bays.  Having enough demo stocks to fill the firing line of the second shooting bay would be nice, too.  I'd prefer to stay away from LTR's since we'd have a mish-mash of scopes and irons, different mag types, some that can dry-fire and some that can't, some bolt action and some semiautomatic... and we'd be hard pressed to put together another set of 25.

But, I bet we could all come up with between 5-10 empty rifle stocks, each of us.  I can strip down my LTR's (3), my Mosin Nagant is in a modern fiberglass stock (1), I have 2 M14 stocks (2) and my Marlin Camp 45 has a decent stock (1).  That's 7 from me.  If you guys can bring 5 each, we'll be over 20 easily.

I don't have a concrete COF yet, but with 40 minutes per cadet group on the firing line, we could also spend 40 minutes per cadet group in a separate segment where we train them on sling usage and steady hold factors of standing/seated/prone, 6 steps, and NPOA.  NPOA would be hard without sights, but do-able to a general degree, I think.

Then we can have a third cadet group that gets the History delivered to them in another 40 minute block.  Dunno if we have the RWVA manpower to accomplish this, though.  I'd want at least 3 instructors in "sling class" and 2 in the firing line, plus whatever the NG has to offer.

Do you guys have suggestions, considering we have 4 hours to put about 125 cadets, in batches of 25 each, through a basic rifle marksmanship program?  Essentially, 5 platoons of shooters.

[AZOpie]

I am having a problem with the 25 shooter segments for 40 minutes each. We need an initial safety briefig, etc. I believe this leaves us with 4 groups of 33 - 34. I am working on getting some more time. A question has been raised on CAP National approval. My response is that since NG troops are working the line we should be covered. More to follow....

[Big H]

Do you guys have suggestions, considering we have 4 hours to put about 125 cadets, in batches of 25 each, through a basic rifle marksmanship program?  Essentially, 5 platoons of shooters.

You should find out exactly what kind of .22 will be provided, and if they'll all be the same, and how many mags. If Ruger 10/22, you should budget extra time at the beginning to teach them to work the bolt lock/bolt release. If some cadets have never fired a rifle before, budget some time to show them how to load a mag and basic rifle operation- and expect to lose more time on the line with mags inserted backward, etc. It's tough, as a new shooter, to remember and apply safety and the firehose of info.

IMHO, to do your usual AS heritage and best marksmanship instruction on the planet, they haven't provided you time to teach sitting/standing. Better to impress their command with how well you taught safety, history, hasty sling, prone and NPOA shift on squares and Redcoats. Have them invite you back or invite them to a regular AS for sitting, standing and KD- always leave them wanting more!

[siglite]

I'm going to be monitoring this thread.  NC-17 (my son) is in CAP here, and we have been working on getting a CAP shoot going.  After this event, I'd like to put our wing commander here in touch with the wing commander there, so they can discuss the experience. 

[AZbinary]

I'm in, I used to fly helicopters out of Pinal, and I have plenty of time off coming.  On edit, I can bring 5 garand stocks, and the stock from my 10/22 LTR.  What time do you want instructors to show up, and how are we getting through the gate.

AZB

[AZOpie]

I'm in, I used to fly helicopters out of Pinal, and I have plenty of time off coming.  On edit, I can bring 5 garand stocks, and the stock from my 10/22 LTR.  What time do you want instructors to show up, and how are we getting through the gate.

AZB

Thank you! That brings us up to 6 Appleseeders and 4 NG instructors for the event.

[AZOpie]

I'm going to be monitoring this thread.  NC-17 (my son) is in CAP here, and we have been working on getting a CAP shoot going.  After this event, I'd like to put our wing commander here in touch with the wing commander there, so they can discuss the experience. 

Sending you a PM with the contact info for the encampment commander...

[AZOpie]

I'm in, I used to fly helicopters out of Pinal, and I have plenty of time off coming.  On edit, I can bring 5 garand stocks, and the stock from my 10/22 LTR.  What time do you want instructors to show up, and how are we getting through the gate.

AZB

I will coordinate with the site security and provide them with a list of instructor staff. AZRedhawk44 is developing the syllabus so he will let everyone know what time to be there. It looks like the earliest we will be able to start instructing is 7:20, if we can get the first group of cadets in the chow hall first, through breakfast, and out to the range in 20 minutes.

[AZRedhawk44]

AZOpie:  I understand that you and Fred requested that we use the RedCoat "Hits Count" target for this.

I've got a healthy stack of those out in the garage.

We don't have time for both the C-AQT and the Red Coat, so we'd have to substitute the Red Coat for the C-AQT.  Going with the Red Coat eliminates the standing/seated drills we might do and makes the entire ~40 minute course of fire a prone exercise.

I'll re-think the COF around a single sheet of squares and a Red Coat.  I don't think that's enough for 40 minutes, though, and I don't have enough star targets on-hand to augment the time on line.  Gonna need something else, I think.  Let me stew on it.

[EEL]

Take what you have to a copy machine.........Presto...........you have more  

Or print off the attachment and copy it.

OR look here:  http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=7406.0

[AZRedhawk44]

EEL:  It's not target quantity that is the problem (You're right, I can copy stars), but more what is suitable for a 40 minute COF.  Ultimately the star seems distracting rather than an inherent core part of the Appleseed curriculum.

The star also lends itself to a "mad minute" with no ammo restrictions, which typically shows kids (who shoot Dad's ammo ) that well aimed shots trump a lot of misses.  We don't have unrestricted access to Dad's ammo here.  We could do the star with 10rds each.  But it doesn't feel like "Appleseed" so much as plain old fun time.  It misses part of the lesson.

Squares... Red Coat... and one more, but within a 40 minute operating window.  And within 10k rounds for ~125 shooters.  And utilizing prone as the only position.

Perhaps a sideways C-AQT to practice NPOA, on gradually harder targets, from prone.  Or a confidence-building "100 yard" target from prone, prior to the squares.

[AZRedhawk44]

Just got my day off approved.  I'm officially "in."

[AZOpie]

Updates:

I now have 10k 22lr ammunition in my possession.
RWVA waivers were sent out last night on the AZ wing listserve.
The concern with CAP national HQ approval has been dealt with. The encampment commander resolved the issue.
I will be flying to the site on Saturday morning to do a survey - just got clearance to use the ramp to park, and clearance to the range as well.
There are 30 firing points on each bay. One range has mechanical (rotating) targets, the other has wood frames that require cardboard backers - I can bring the backers down with me for the event.
The range doesn't have any SOPs other than the usual requirements to use the range flag, etc. We'll use RWVA SOPs.
Site security will not be an issue since the range is not on a military reservation nor is it in the secured part of the airport.
I didn't have time to discuss billeting, but I will in the morning. The site contact was headed out the door when I called him.

AZO

[AZOpie]

Shoot schedule is attached. We are "stealing" some time by rushing cadets through breakfast and sending some to lunch a few minutes late. Right now we have a total of 6 RWVA and 4 NG instructors for the shoot and 130 cadets to run through from 0730 until 1205. With this count we should be able to do a safety briefing, and instruction, put 26 shooters on the line for 45 minutes per relay, and some history to boot.

AZRedhawk44 has tasked me to develop the COF.  He will be providing the SB support.

Since we are time limited, I plan to keep the shooting to prone only for the event. We will quickly instruct and demo standing and sitting, but the focus will be on prone as it is the most stable and safest for the environment. This will allow us to at least get students down on the ground with either stocks or air rifles (as available) to get a feel for what a correct prone position with a sling looks and feels like. I have requested that student cadre and older cadets go first, with the younger cadets going last. The schedule lends itself to having more instruction time at the end, and more instructors working the firing line at the end as well. There may well be some additional intructors / safety officers to be had, but I know I have 10 total right now.

AZO

[AZOpie]

OK, attached is a relay schedule, course of fire, and targets excluding the redcoat. The redcoat may be fired with .22lr if we cannot get the black guns and appropriate ammo from the Guard folks - we'll see, but it sounds like we will. I have also squared away the billeting requirements for TG and BF. Chime in....

V1.1 Updated to also include a 1 page relay schedule...