Author Topic: Can you bring other people's children to an Appleseed?  (Read 5126 times)

Offline Western Rose

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Can you bring other people's children to an Appleseed?
« on: March 12, 2010, 11:40:36 PM »
Thanks to OrovilleTim and Fred for the question and answer.


From Tim:
I had a question posed to me by my teen daughter as we were pulling out from our first Appleseed last weekend:  "Dad, can we bring 'so-and-so' to the next one?"  With so-and-so being one of her teen-aged friends.

I told her that I thought the parents would have to be here to sign the release forms.  But, I got to thinking that the more that learn marksmanship, the better off we are for the future.

So, my question is:  If we downloaded the forms and had the minor's parents sign the release, could the minor attend?  Or, would the parent actually have to be on-sight to sign and for the minor to participate?  

I figured it would be better to ask and find out for sure, than to just assume that it wasn't workable.

Thanks much,
Tim


From Fred:
 The short answer is "yes" (as to the downloading) and "no" (as to the parent having to be there - altho every effort should be made to encourage the parent to be there - just so we can reach someone else) - assuming the kid is under 18 - 18 and older would be considered adults in their own right.


A PDF file of the Liability Release Form will be posted below as soon as I have it.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 08:58:23 PM by Western Rose »
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Offline didactic

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Re: Can you bring other people's children to an Appleseed?
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2010, 07:49:45 PM »
I don't think it's important to us, because the liability release signed by a parent or guardian should cover us at the shoot, but I think it'd be good advice to anyone bringing anyone else's minor child, to get a document signed by the parent, giving them permission to transport and supervise the minor during travel enroute, as well as during the instruction and times between instruction sessions.

As I read state laws, that seems to be sometimes required and never a bad idea.
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Offline fepowered

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Re: Can you bring other people's children to an Appleseed?
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2010, 01:27:19 PM »
If it were not for caring Grandparents, Uncles/Aunts etc..   Some kids would never get to shoot.  In WI there is no minimum age for target shooting with an adult designated by the parent...
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Offline ItsanSKS

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Re: Can you bring other people's children to an Appleseed?
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2010, 01:38:55 PM »
I second the letter authorizing a non-parent to be in charge of the child shooter that weekend.  Florida law requires that anyone under 18 be accompanied by a parent or legal guardian.  Legal Guardian being someone 18 or older, designated either by the court or by the parent. 
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Offline eaglescouter

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Re: Can you bring other people's children to an Appleseed?
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2010, 01:48:35 PM »
In this modern age where children do not have the same last name as their parents, I'm only interested in an adult signature on the liability form.  I do not believe it is our job to determine the legal sufficiency of the authority claimed by the adult who signs the form. 
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Offline Devnull

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Re: Can you bring other people's children to an Appleseed?
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2010, 02:22:03 PM »
Well, that's the rub. Let's say we have an adult saying "I've got these three kiddos here." and they sign the liability waiver. God forbid something happens at that shoot then where are we at? I would think that in theory the person signing the form is now the liable party, but courts have a funny way of throwing the sensible back in your face.

I personally haven't asked if they are the legal guardian or actual parent. Out here with the high divorce rate and such I would have to ask everyone. For now I have been assuming if they brought the child to the shoot they have the blessing of the parents.

What we need here is an opinion of a lawyer... Now where could we get one of those?  Humm....
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Offline AZRedhawk44

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Re: Can you bring other people's children to an Appleseed?
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2010, 03:21:01 PM »
If the liability form were to read something along the lines of:

(in the case of a parent/guardian signing for a minor)

I do hereby affirm that I am an authorized party to accompany the above minor, supervise the above minor, and provide for emergency care of above minor, as applicable to the State laws where the Appleseed Event is held.  In the event that I am not the legal parent/guardian of this minor, then I have express permission from the minor's proper legal parent/guardian for the minor to attend this event under my supervision, and I am empowered to provide for emergency care of this minor.

(or some such language)

Offline desertrat144

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Re: Can you bring other people's children to an Appleseed?
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2010, 04:21:55 PM »
To take this a bit further, find out what documentation your state requires to secure any medical treatment, &c. in case there's an injury- there or on the way.  Some states have releases 'tailored' to taking non-family members on outings, and how to secure treatment and such.  Contact your city or county Social Services Department- do not disclose that it's a shooting event!!! (a lot of agencies will shut you down quickly!0 for detailed info.

Tom
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Offline Devnull

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Re: Can you bring other people's children to an Appleseed?
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2010, 04:30:33 PM »
Hey, that's not a bad idea!

I just wonder if there is a way to make it universal. Ye olde cookie cutter approach. Simplicity in everything!
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Offline desertrat144

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Re: Can you bring other people's children to an Appleseed?
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2010, 10:44:22 PM »
That would be great, but state laws vary too much; also what your insurance will cover in the interem, or will a hospital treat, and to what degree?  Non life threatening there.

Tom
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Offline Fred

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Re: Can you bring other people's children to an Appleseed?
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2010, 11:13:19 AM »

    I am forced to modify my original answer to "and comply with any applicable state laws."

    I also am inclined to agree with eaglescouter's "I do not believe it is our job to determine the legal sufficiency of the authority claimed by the adult who signs the form."

    Otherwise, next we'll have to be asking "parents" (how do we know if they are really the parents of the kid(s)?) for birth certificates as proof of parenthood.

    "Of course, a name of a piece of paper proves nothing - show me your government ID card to prove you are the person who is the named parent on the birth certificate..."

    Seems to me this is a trail we don't necessarily want to go down. Or should be expected to go down.
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Offline nyrasgt

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Re: Can you bring other people's children to an Appleseed?
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2010, 02:50:54 PM »
Troops,
    Would make two observations regarding bringing non-related minors to an AS weekend:
1)  Like numerous other youth-oriented activities (Boy/Girl Scouts, 4H, sports teams and clubs), the adult/guardian would be functioning, as teachers, coaches, and advisors do in schools, "in loco parentis," literally in place of the parent...with all the responsibilities, rights, and privileges that this entails.
2)  I recommend that, just to be paranoid, and CYA, that a non-relative adult SHOULD have, on their person, the equivalent of a school's "Emergency Card," which details emergency contacts AND gives the bearer permission from the parents to make decisions, e.g. regarding the health/emergency treatment of the minor, should such decisions become necessary.  Most schools will have a printed card and would be happy to give out blank ones that parents could fill out and give to the escorting adult.  This might be added to the intro segment covering the Emergency Plan for an AS, or even be added as a question or two on the signed release form. 
     Can NOT be too careful, on OR off the line!  Eventually we may, as many school sporting events do - as in football games - invite a local EMS squad to attend Appleseed weekends on standby (some could shoot as well - next time the shooters stand by and the "standers" shoot...symbiotic relationship:  the EMS folks get to shoot and the Appleseed attendees get on-scene
EMS coverage...MIGHT EVEN CONSIDER adding EMTs (and above, e.g. ALS, Paramedics) to the list of those who shoot free @ AS events...just gives more, closer coverage in the event of Something Bad happening, like a bee sting to someone severely allergic, who, without an epipen on site, goes into anaphalactic shock...a Bad Thing.
Crazy?  No.  Ridiculous?  No.  Better to have a plan and not need it, than...we know how the rest of that goes...
Not the kind of press for which we are looking...unless it's to document a "we-were-prepared" save...
    I'm taking my school's Varsity Academic Bowl Team to the Nationals in N'awlins Memorial Day weekend, and NO ONE gets on the plane unless I have a current, dated, and signed card for each minor.

Just my slightly paranoid .02.
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Offline desertrat144

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Re: Can you bring other people's children to an Appleseed?
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2010, 03:12:22 PM »
Quote
nyrasgt  
Troops,
    Would make two observations regarding bringing non-related minors to an AS weekend:
1)  Like numerous other youth-oriented activities (Boy/Girl Scouts, 4H, sports teams and clubs), the adult/guardian would be functioning, as teachers, coaches, and advisors do in schools, "in loco parentis," literally in place of the parent...with all the responsibilities, rights, and privileges that this entails.
2)  I recommend that, just to be paranoid, and CYA, that a non-relative adult SHOULD have, on their person, the equivalent of a school's "Emergency Card," which details emergency contacts AND gives the bearer permission from the parents to make decisions, e.g. regarding the health/emergency treatment of the minor, should such decisions become necessary.  Most schools will have a printed card and would be happy to give out blank ones that parents could fill out and give to the escorting adult.  This might be added to the intro segment covering the Emergency Plan for an AS, or even be added as a question or two on the signed release form.  
     Can NOT be too careful, on OR off the line!

Well stated, and prob should be written in general policy for future reference, as this question occurs with increasing regularity.  At least AS is getting another generation off the couch before the dents become permanent!  

3 Huzzahs & a volley to those willing to, and doing this!

Tom
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Offline zenjenn

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Re: Can you bring other people's children to an Appleseed?
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2010, 03:02:33 PM »
I would be curious if any scoutmasters brought kids to a shoot. I'm still a newbie and it a couple years off for me, but I am a Girl Scout leader and I would love to be able to work towards bringing my girls to a shoot when they are old enough. I'm wondering if all the standard girl scout permission forms would be suitable, but I know GS has some special rules with circumstances such as this. At GS camps girls can shoot air rifle starting in 4th grade.

If this organization hasn't established a relationship with Boy and Girl Scouts I would encourage them to do so. It could be a good opportunity for some boys and girls. I am a scout leader because I make it a point to get myself outside of my comfort zone for the sake of both myself and my kids (my own and my scouts), but not all parents are like that and scouts is a great way for their kids to expand their horizons. People have lost touch with the idea of having real skills and scouts is a great venue to try to get our youth to experience some real skill development.

Offline dwarven1

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Re: Can you bring other people's children to an Appleseed?
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2010, 03:59:27 PM »
At our recent Leyden shoot, a mother left her 13 year old at the shoot for most of the day while she wasn't there - she'd asked me on Saturday afternoon about it and I was willing to as long as she left me contact information and a waiver (she did).

As for the Scouts... there was a troop at my gun club last night, so I gave the scoutmaster the SWAT and Dillon Blue Press reprints. We'll see if they come to the next shoot...
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Offline desertrat144

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Re: Can you bring other people's children to an Appleseed?
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2010, 04:43:39 PM »
" ...I am a Girl Scout leader and I would love to be able to work towards bringing my girls to a shoot when they are old enough. I'm wondering if all the standard girl scout permission forms would be suitable, but I know GS has some special rules with circumstances such as this. At GS camps girls can shoot air rifle starting in 4th grade.  emphasis added 

If this organization hasn't established a relationship with Boy and Girl Scouts I would encourage them to do so. It could be a good opportunity for some boys and girls. I am a scout leader because I make it a point to get myself outside of my comfort zone for the sake of both myself and my kids (my own and my scouts), but not all parents are like that and scouts is a great way for their kids to expand their horizons. People have lost touch with the idea of having real skills and scouts is a great venue to try to get our youth to experience some real skill development.

There have been attempts to establish links with the BSA, GSA, 4H, &c. which generally have been met with great organizational resistance.  The reasons range from age to insurance to 'just because' (PC).  There have been time that the suggestion was made to have a troop show up out of uniform, so it (their participation) would not be perceived as sanctioned by the District.  There were no further posts that I know of that addressed this issue's outcome.

In the quotes above the italicized portions are the primary obstacles presented before Bureaucratic Speak takes over.  The issue of air rifles has been discussed, and OKd to restart see "Did you say a 15 yard Appleseed?? at http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=12244.0.  The restart of this program is going for want of a Director.  I do not have the time or ability to take on an additional program, but can help intermittently for anyone interested in this program.  It would breech the Organizational Obsticles presented.

I realize these probably aren't the answers you were hoping for, but this is as an accurate picture I can currently relay to you; if anyone can add to this or correct any errors, it would be greatly appreciated.

Tom
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Offline sparks1

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Re: Can you bring other people's children to an Appleseed?
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2010, 10:27:40 PM »
My nephews and I are certainly glad that I could bring them to an AS. Went last year and again this year with one nephew, the other had homework for the second AS, and at the one this year he (Zack) got doused with North Bridge water. Truely a happy boy, and he chose the purple riflemans badge.
 I see him going to many more events, and while I may not be the one bringing him, he will still be beaming after the weekend.

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Offline RifleWoman

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Re: Can you bring other people's children to an Appleseed?
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2010, 10:49:10 PM »
When people ask me this question in advance, I forward a liability waiver for the parents to sign and have the adult who will be attending with them bring it with them.  I don't think a young kid should be there on their own without an adult.  I guess if you are willing to accept that responsibility then that's one thing.  If the kid is about 15-16 then I don't think I'd have too much of a problem with it.  But still you want that waiver.
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Offline dart67eb

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Re: Can you bring other people's children to an Appleseed?
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2010, 02:06:14 PM »
When people ask me this question in advance, I forward a liability waiver for the parents to sign and have the adult who will be attending with them bring it with them.  I don't think a young kid should be there on their own without an adult.  I guess if you are willing to accept that responsibility then that's one thing.  If the kid is about 15-16 then I don't think I'd have too much of a problem with it.  But still you want that waiver.

That's what I do.  There are some kids I wouldn't even think of bringing.  Kinda like when parachutists chip in and buy someone who is a hazard a bowling ball as a hint.
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