NY Laws regarding Youth and Firearms

[gunville]

First off, I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV. Second, the firearms laws of New York are absurd and clear violations of the 2nd Amendment. Getting past those things I've been reading these laws:

I'm concerned about the legal instruction of youths under 16 at Appleseeds in NY.

From what I read, our instructors may not all meet the requirements set forth.  I'll include the appropriate sections in a reply, but they boil down basically to this:

Youths 12-16 can shoot firearms that use gunpowder at an indoor or outdoor range must be under the immediate supervision, guidence, and instruction of:
- A duly commisioned officer of the US Army/Navy/Marines/Coast Guard, or NY National Guard
- a US Citizin with small arms instruction certification provided by the Army/Navy/Marines, or NRA
- An adult with a hunter safety certificate

Youths under 12 can not legally shoot firearms with gunpowder propellent.
Youths under 12 can shoot air guns with the same restricitions as 12-16 have with gunpowder firearms.

[gunville]

265.05. Unlawful possession of weapons
by persons under sixteen

It shall be unlawful
for any person under the age of sixteen to possess
any air-gun, spring-gun or other instrument
or weapon in which the propelling force is a
spring or air, or any gun or any instrument or
weapon in or upon which any loaded or blank
cartridges may be used, or any loaded or blank
cartridges or ammunition therefor, or any dangerous
knife; provided that the possession of
rifle or shotgun or ammunition therefor by the
holder of a hunting license or permit issued pursuant
to article eleven of the environmental conservation
law and used in accordance with said
law shall not be governed by this section.
A person who violates the provisions of this
section shall be adjudged a juvenile delinquent.

....

265.20 Exemptions
...
7. Possession, at an indoor or outdoor shooting
range for the purpose of loading and firing,
of a rifle or shotgun, the propelling force of which
is gunpowder by a person under sixteen years of
age but not under twelve, under the immediate
supervision, guidance and instruction of (a) a
duly commissioned officer of the United States
army, navy, air force, marine corps or coast
guard, or of the national guard of the state of
New York; or (b) a duly qualified adult citizen of
the United States who has been granted a certificate
as an instructor in small arms practice issued
by the United States army, navy, air force
or marine corps, or by the adjutant general of
this state, or by the national rifle association of
America, a not-for-profit corporation duly organized
under the laws of this state; or (c) a parent,
guardian, or a person over the age of eighteen
designated in writing by such parent or guardian
who shall have a certificate of qualification in responsible
hunting, including safety, ethics, and
landowner relations-hunter relations, issued or
honored by the department of environmental
conservation; or (d) an agent of the department
of environmental conservation appointed to conduct
courses in responsible hunting practices
pursuant to article eleven of the environmental
conservation law.
...
7-c. Possession for the purpose of loading
and firing, of a rifle, pistol or shotgun, the propelling
force of which may be either air, compressed
gas or springs, by a person under sixteen
years of age but not under twelve, under
the immediate supervision, guidance and instruction
of (a) a duly commissioned officer of
the United States army, navy, marine corps or
coast guard, or of the national guard of the state
of New York; or (b) a duly qualified adult citizen
of the United States who has been granted a
certificate as an instructor in small arms practice
issued by the United States army, navy or marine
corps, or by the adjutant general of this
state, or by the national rifle association of
America, a not-for-profit corporation duly organized
under the laws of this state; or (c) a parent,
guardian, or a person over the age of eighteen
designated in writing by such parent or guardian
who shall have a certificate of qualification in responsible
hunting, including safety, ethics, and
landowner relations-hunter relations, issued or
honored by the department of environmental
conservation.
7-d. Possession, at an indoor or outdoor
shooting range for the purpose of loading and
firing, of a rifle, pistol or shotgun, the propelling
force of which may be either air, compressed
gas or springs, by a person under twelve years
of age, under the immediate supervision, guidance
and instruction of (a) a duly commissioned
officer of the United States army, navy, marine
corps or coast guard, or of the national guard of
the state of New York; or (b) a duly qualified
adult citizen of the United States who has been
granted a certificate as an instructor in small
arms practice issued by the United States army,
navy or marine corps, or by the adjutant general
of this state, or by the national rifle association
of America, a not-for-profit corporation duly organized
under the laws of this state; or (c) a parent,
guardian, or a person over the age of eighteen
designated in writing by such parent or
guardian who shall have a certificate of qualification
in responsible hunting, including safety,
ethics, and landowner relations-hunter relations,
issued or honored by the department of environmental
conservation.

[didactic]

Looks to me like:

No shooters under age 12 at New York Appleseeds.  Period.  End of discussion.   

All Shoot Bosses (at a minimum, and ideally all red-hat instructors serving) conducting shoots in New York need to be certified by the Department of Environmental Conservation, OR someone needs to get the Department to recognize Project Appleseed instructors generally.  No telling what will be involved in that, but it looks necessary if we are to allow shooters under the age of 16, unless each has a parent or guardian immediately present during all shooting to "supervise" the instruction.  Or a DEC agent present.  Bah!

It looks to me that our liability waiver, signed by a parent, would probably be sufficient IF our Shoot Boss had that state recognition.

Am I reading these right?  Whatta bucket o' worms!

[ItsanSKS]

Looks more like time to lobby your state legislators to ammend this law, to allow the instruction of anyone, of any age, with the parent/legal guardian present. 

The way this law is written, (from what has been posted) it doesn't even appear to allow a parent to teach their own child how to properly handle firearms...  Clear abridgment of a parents rights. 

Rather than work to ensure that every RWVA instructor is recognized by this (obviously unconstitutional) law, you NY folks should work to get it repealed or changed, at the very least. 

[jacques]

First off, I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV. Second, the firearms laws of New York are absurd and clear violations of the 2nd Amendment. Getting past those things I've been reading these laws:

I'm concerned about the legal instruction of youths under 16 at Appleseeds in NY.

From what I read, our instructors may not all meet the requirements set forth.  I'll include the appropriate sections in a reply, but they boil down basically to this:

Youths 12-16 can shoot firearms that use gunpowder at an indoor or outdoor range must be under the immediate supervision, guidence, and instruction of:
- A duly commisioned officer of the US Army/Navy/Marines/Coast Guard, or NY National Guard
- a US Citizin with small arms instruction certification provided by the Army/Navy/Marines, or NRA
- An adult with a hunter safety certificate

Youths under 12 can not legally shoot firearms with gunpowder propellent.
Youths under 12 can shoot air guns with the same restricitions as 12-16 have with gunpowder firearms.

Looks like a NRA RSO at the shoots is good enough. NRA RSO certs are not hard to get. But that does limit it to 12yo and above.

I hear you about the absurdity. They are restricting BB guns for crying out loud.

[B9]

Long term goal:              Change the law. A tough one.
Intermediate term goal:   Get RWVA Instructors included in the requirements for supervision. Should not overly difficult.
Short term goal:             Get RWVA Instructors NRA certified. Fairly easy.

Until the law is changed that would still leave out the 12 and under. Understand that ranges like B-Flats having been doing it for years is different than RWVA doing it. The bigger targets get shot at first a lot of the times. Still vague to me as to who would be responsible, the child, parent, Instructor, RWVA or ?. Would we need to see birth certificates of questionable age children?

[Fred]

      Guys, as this program grows, it will become more visible to all, including people who want to stop it.

    Which means we have to keep this program in compliance with all state laws.

    We cannot decide "on our own" to violate, ignore, or otherwise dis laws we think are stupid, wrong, or even unconstitutional (that last is up to a court to decide, legally).

    Which means under 12 at AS, unless there's a 'parental' exception I missed in reading the excerpts above, can no longer be permitted. As they say, like it or not, it's the law.

    You don't want this program to suffer because an instructor in NY or anywhere else ignored a law he should not have ignored.

    Authorities can choose to ignore laws, and not enforce them. That's a privilege none of us has.

    Likewise, authorities can suddenly choose to enforce laws they've ignored for years or generations.

    Furthermore, in 21st-century America, it seems that using selective enforcement of laws to confound your enemies (political or philosophical) is becoming so common as not to be worthy of comment. Usually, it's the "left" using selective enforcement against the "right". While we are non-political, and educational only, it's possible some or most on the "left" would view Appleseed and Appleseeders, incorrectly, as being on the "right", because of the firearms issue, and OK therefore to target.

    So, B9, let's check over things in NY and make sure every SB, including visiting SBs from out-of-state, receives a copy of the law relating to firearms training and minors.

    B9, we need to get a lawyer to AS in NY so we can get a legal opinion on this important issue...

[Josey Wales]

..Good job guys, keep this going. It is a good feeling to know the laws. To be prepared mentally, to have answers to questions for the public and law enforcement. This is another way to awake the public on how much liberty has been lost. Heard this saying lately, "I would give up some more of my rights to feel safer.".......I would not...Liberty comes with a price too, it is called responsibility...........Anyways, I want to know the rules(laws). Lets keep this going until we are all lawyers.........Good job Gunville.........Strength & Honor..............JW...................

[gunville]

The easiest way is for Instructors IITs to attend a NY Hunter Safety Course and get that certificate if they don't have it. (I have one and I suspect most folks the grew up here and hunt have one.)

The hunter safety course is free but does kill a couple of nights; most Rod & Gun clubs offer them.

If need be we could probably get one set up in the short-term for the NY team.

That (with the parental permission form) would cover us for the 12-16 Y.O.

I didn't know NY had an "Adjutant General" but the next step may be to get him/her to recognize Appleseed instruction per 265.20-7

On the under 12 Y.O. issue... I was at an AS where a Police officer brought his 8 yo to shoot!  But we have to comply until such a time as the law could be changed. (In NY, I'm not optimistic.)

[I'm attaching the NY section of ATF Publication 5300 5 - listing all thNY laws.)

[Another D.O.M.]

B9, we need to get a lawyer to AS in NY so we can get a legal opinion on this important issue...

I believe we had one at Hudson Falls.  nyrasgt, can you comment on this?

[KodyJaret]

 Gunville has pointed out the possesion of a Hunter Safety Certificate / Hunting Lincense and parental permission should get us through most of this.

Let me throw a wet blanket here. Considering all that has to be covered in a week end, it's hard for me to imagine a criterion that places five , six and seven year olds on the same firing line as adults.  The attention spans and physical abilities are vastly different. The simplest and most expeditious answer to this question is to limit participation to 12yrs. and above , at least in NY.

As for spending effort changing the law on this matter,,,our legislative priorities might be better spent turning back current legislative proposals to limit and forbid our right to keep and bear arms in NY.

[txpirate]

Nothing personal, but that wet blanket is bogus. We're not just talking about 5, 6, and 7 year olds here. I have seen many 9-12 year olds shoot rifleman scores. If they are mature enough to handle a rifle safely, the ONLY obstacle to overcome is the size of the rifle (length of pull). Well-prepared parents and instructors have easily provided them a suitable rifle using adjustable buttstocks, or modifying the stock to be of "junior" size.

Now, we do have to follow the law, until it is changed. However, don't be willing to just live with some BS law because, 1) it doesn't affect you, and 2) you see certain situations where you think that law doesn't hurt anything. That is exactly how we lose our rights.

[B9]

Nothing personal, but that wet blanket is bogus. We're not just talking about 5, 6, and 7 year olds here. I have seen many 9-12 year olds shoot rifleman scores. If they are mature enough to handle a rifle safely, the ONLY obstacle to overcome is the size of the rifle (length of pull). Well-prepared parents and instructors have easily provided them a suitable rifle using adjustable buttstocks, or modifying the stock to be of "junior" size.

Now, we do have to follow the law, until it is changed. However, don't be willing to just live with some BS law because, 1) it doesn't affect you, and 2) you see certain situations where you think that law doesn't hurt anything. That is exactly how we lose our rights.

I was just going to say something simular.

It is should be how mature they are. The young Rifle Team members at B-Flats are a perfect example. I would put them up against almost anyone of any age for safety and conduct. That said, for now, the law is the law. B-Flats may be the only range that may be overly effected. Not looking forward to seeing the disapointment on those wonderfull young American faces.

[KodyJaret]

Now, we do have to follow the law, until it is changed. However, don't be willing to just live with some BS law because, 1) it doesn't affect you, and 2) you see certain situations where you think that law doesn't hurt anything. That is exactly how we lose our rights

Right now, in real time, their is , pending in Albany , the state capitol, some very serious anti gun legislation. Their is only one stat worse than NY, As far as loss of 2AM rights are concerned.

Having spent a little time through the years making my views known to my elected representatives, (a friend informed me some years ago , that when talking to his lawyer, a former legislative aide, when my name came up, he referred to me as a " hard nosed s.o.b.",,,didn't bother me in the slightest. I know how rights are lost. Thanks for askin'.

We may be able to effect a positive change regards the age of those who may handle handle firearms in this state.  Perhaps we might work w/ our new friend NYSRPA on this ? . For me, these battles are always a question of overall strategy and priority.
Right now as gunowners in this state, we have a bit of a respite as Albany is in such disarray.

[Josey Wales]

..I have my hunter safety card, It renews every year when I get my hunting license. I get my hunting license every year without fail..so bring all those 12 year old girls and or boys to me, or I will go to them, anywhere anytime..

[VietVet]

..I have my hunter safety card, It renews every year when I get my hunting license. I get my hunting license every year without fail..so bring all those 12 year old girls and or boys to me, or I will go to them, anywhere anytime..

I have mine also!

[Another D.O.M.]

I haven't hunted since I was about 19 years old.  I don't think even God knows where my last license tag is now.  I guess that means I'll need to spend some time renewing it...  (And, FWIW, back then it was a three or four hour affair.)

[Another D.O.M.]

Right now, in real time, their is , pending in Albany , the state capitol, some very serious anti gun legislation.

There is always 'serious' anti-gun legislation pending in Albany; and those who introduce it, as well as those who vote in favor of it,  always seem to get re-elected despite the crimes they've committed against their country and their fellow citizens.  It's a very strange system we have where infamous crimes are rewarded while crimes based upon unenforceable law are punished.  We need to wake up a good many more sleeping New Yorkers - and that includes the children!

[desertrat144]

Two questions here as N.Y. statutes are a beast unto itself: 1. Is the NRA the only acceptable " ...a not-for-profit corporation duly organized
under the laws of this state..." and 2. What would it take to get the necessary status from the State A.G., given Appleseeds documented instruction to the members of the Armed Forces a la NRA &CMP in WWI &II?

tom

[KodyJaret]

Actually , I'm feeling a bit more optimistic regards NYS, having not reviewed the state by state anti-gun index in a while. In a quick comparison to the usual suspects, NY might be approximately fifth  out of fifty (or is ithat 57 ?) on the hit parade. Things could be worse.

Now, how would one word a proposal to remove the minimum age that a person may handle a firearm in NYS ? For that matter, how many other states have such minimums ?

Some old Roman said : the more corrupt the state,the more numerous the laws




 

[LongIslandFirearms]

Second, the firearms laws of New York are absurd and clear violations of the 2nd Amendment.

Thanks for understanding our frustration which causes so many challenges.


If you can imaging that, image how hard it is to obtain a handgun license.  And once you receive a license it's restricted to and from the range, unless you obtain a Business or Full-carry (impossible).

I formed a fund to address these challenges/illegal 'restrictions'.  

Read the application on how to obtain a license:
http://www.co.suffolk.ny.us/police/forms/Pistol%20License%20Handbook%20PDCS-4000i%20%20letter%20size%203-27-08.pdf

Page 15 describes the type of licenses.

Below is what PROOF you need to provide in order to obtain a business license.
http://www.co.suffolk.ny.us/police/forms/Business%20Class%202%20Requirments.pdf


Maybe you are unaware as to the laws in NY.  I hope this opens your eyes and helps show how illegal it really is.


www.LongIslandFirearms.com
www.NYFreedomFund.org

[gunville]

You may notice that these restrictions for handguns vary county by county, making it even more absurd. NYC being the worst I'm sure.

Further more, because of Judiciary involvement - they are even worst - I can't recall the wording, but because of one or two words in the legislation some judge decided that all permits have to be approved by a judge when that was not the intent of the law at all.

I know someone that collects cash rents in the worst part of Syracuse - he was denied a CC permit even though he's been robbed and threatened.  Such is justice.  I was told my CC permit request would be rejected unless I was a cop or worked for the DA.


Each year a Republican out in Buffalo - can't recall his name - proposes to remove that wording, and each year its lost in committee.

Truthfully, WRT handguns, NY will be at the mercy of the current Supreme court case on extending the 2nd amendment to the states.

Alternatively, (it almost past but for the work of Nancy Pelosi) Congress may pass a law that requires states to recognize all CC permits.  That would force NY to change.  Right now I can CC in 30 states, but not in the one I live in... go figure.

[Another D.O.M.]

These discussions remind me of something I read once:

"It will be of little avail to the people, that the laws are made by men of their own choice, if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood; if they be repealed or revised before they are promulgated, or undergo such incessant changes that no man, who knows what the law is to-day, can guess what it will be to-morrow. Law is defined to be a rule of action; but how can that be a rule, which is little known, and less fixed?"          James Madison, from The Federalist #62 - February 27, 1788.  (http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa62.htm)

This paper begins, "To the People of the State of New York:"

232 years and we still haven't learned a thing...

[desertrat144]

From what I've read, NY State differs from NYC (3 counties named).  I'll be moving to Schumerland from the free State of NV; NY gun laws are a strange beast, but that's by Legislative Intent.  If Chicago goes as expected, NY will be rewriting it's firearms laws at the double quick.  I've been in touch with the Chief LEO of the county we will be headed to- TG he's a shooter!  I've talked with the County's Court Clerk, a judge decides in rem, the applicant cannot appear on their behalf to rebut any negative remarks, nor address a legitimate need for a CCW, like getting around in a wheelchair &tc.  The galling part is that my pistols have to be shipped to a FFL, where I have to 'paper' my old duty weapons & weapons owned for years.  If SCOTUS affirms Chicago the 2^nd and 14^th Amendments will survive, and be legitimate cause. See Filings at: "ChicagoGunCase.com" Case Filings, http://www.chicagoguncase.com/case-filings/ (last visited Jan. 24, 2010).  

A new case Peruta v. County of San Diego et al at Google Law (last visited february 20, 2010), where a San Diego, CA man who makes his living by traveling and doing nature photography while traveling through out the state, with expensive equipment, finished photos, and negatives traveling in a RV was denied a CCW, based on a question if San Diego was was his residence.

BTW, the Washington State Supreme Court has reversed their 2A positions; the best guess is they are getting ready for the out come of Chicago.

Where is this all headed?  Good question.  If SCOTUS makes Chicago the law of the land, gunville's friend can argue under both the 2^nd and 14^th Amendments- the Right to own, Posses, and Bear Arms (USCA 2), plus the buffer of the Equal Protection Clause (USCA 14).  

States like CA, WI, IL, MO, all in part are 'waking up' and starting to back off onerous policies.  Given it's history, most likely NY will try a legislative end run a la D.C post Heller that will also fail, but adds the expenses of Federal Injunctions.  Time will tell.

Tom


Addendum, added 2108 PST  For the inter relations of USCA 2 & 14, and applications, see Second Amendment drama: Act II
McDonald v. Chicago, No. 08-1521; Argument preview at http://www.scotusblog.com/2010/02/second-amendment-drama-act-ii/

Tom

[B9]

Perhaps we need to think about amending the standard RWVA wavier for NY shoots. Where the parent is signing for the 18 and under shooters also have it state that they certify that the youth is also over 12.

Just a CYA. It is not like most 12 to 16 year olds have photo ID.

[R1SGx2]

Are there other states similar to NY, if so what do they do. this would change the dynamics for NY in that it would have to be spelled out in flyer's and announcements.

[desertrat144]

Comments:

Are there other states similar to NY, if so what do they do. this would change the dynamics for NY in that it would have to be spelled out in flyer's and announcements. (R1sgx2)

Washington state is somewhat similar, but will probably change given the recent case that has made it to SCOTUS.

Perhaps we need to think about amending the standard RWVA wavier for NY shoots. Where the parent is signing for the 18 and under shooters also have it state that they certify that the youth is also over 12.

That would prob be the best way to go.  Get it reviewed by an firearms attorney, or a sympathetic judge before using it.

Just a CYA. It is not like most 12 to 16 year olds have photo ID.

Those days are rapidly closing with the Patriot Act being reaffirmed.  I believe the target date for 'Official Govt ID' for all US Citizens is 2014.

Tom



[/quote]

[gunville]

Hey, that's what Hitler did, what do you know

[Another D.O.M.]

Hey, that's what Hitler did, what do you know

Don't say that in public - if you compare the 'mandates' of the past several administrations to what happened in Nazi Germany (Soviet Russia, Communist China, etc., etc.) people will actually tell you you're imagining it all.

     If you refuse to learn from it, you're destined to repeat it...

[Fred]

    Changing the law is maybe beyond our grasp (but not by 2016!), but we could do something with this:

265.20 Exemptions
...
7. Possession, at an indoor or outdoor shooting
range for the purpose of loading and firing,
of a rifle or shotgun, the propelling force of which
is gunpowder by a person under sixteen years of
age but not under twelve, under the immediate
supervision, guidance and instruction of (a) a
duly commissioned officer of the United States
army, navy, air force, marine corps or coast
guard, or of the national guard of the state of
New York; or (b) a duly qualified adult citizen of
the United States who has been granted a certificate
as an instructor in small arms practice issued
by the United States army, navy, air force
or marine corps, or by the adjutant general of
this state..

    How much would a phone call to the AG's office cost?

    I bet they won't know what to do, so it will take someone with some personality (like a salesman) to talk them into looking into our instructor's training, compare it to that of the NRA, and with a nudge of commonsense supplied by our guy, be convinced that anyone who completes RWVA training to become an instructor should be recognized by the AG's office and issued an appropriate certificate.

    If we don't ask, we know what the answer will be...