Other Ranges in GA (BIG RANGES)

[Appalacious]

Hey that's an easy one .

For it to be called an "Appleseed" it has to be approved by the main office and put on the official schedule.  Other things go along with that, but that'll get you started.  Also, it has to be led by a Shoot Boss.

What yall did was a really good day at the range, but it wasn't an Appleseed.  That's ok, though.  Appleseed is a great program, but it's not the only great program. 

[franklinfarmer]

Here's a report on the West Georgia Youth Range shoot in Bremen.  (And maybe Barret et al can give me some advice.)

They have a 200 yard rifle range, 3 or 4 pistol pits and a skeet range.  It's brand new; this was the first event ever held there.  It's located next to a transfer station/landfill.  It could certainly handle an Appleseed shoot.  I was invited to join their club WGYR Association.  It's 200 frn up front and 100 frn/year.  I also met a guy from River Bend (clearly one of the best shooters at this Bremen shoot), and he said I should come up to River Bend (more below).  As I recall, River Bend is (more) expensive, so here are my questions for feedback:

1. Should I join a shooting club?  I've never been in one, and I can shoot in my yard or on a nearby deer lease.  But it seems like the cost for this one is reasonable, though it's just starting out, and I don't know how much expertise is available, but they seem like nice people.  If so, would it be worth checking our River Bend first?

2. Should I pursue club membership in relation to establishing a venue for Appleseed?  (This really seems like the main motivation, though as mentioned in the post above, there is probably another site 15 miles West which I'm pretty confident we will be able to use.)  Should I check on the possibilities for Appleseed at WGYR up front?

3. How important is this to my shooting skills?  They guy from River Bend emphasized that they have all the best shooters at their club, and seemed to suggest that just by being in the presence of their greatness my shooting would improve.  (I must say that he did place second in both Garand and M1 Carbine, so he is obviously a good shooter.)  He asked what the letters on my orange hat stood for, and made a little fun of their being no Revolutionary War Vets.  Then he said he didn't mean to put down the Appleseed project, but that I would learn a lot more about shooting by coming to River Bend.

I guess those are my main questions for you guys.  Now a short report on CMP Garand shooting:

I won't comment much on my performance.  With the Garand I was consistently in the 230 out of 300 range with the winners shooting close to perfect.  There were some good shooters there.  It seems like that shooting has a very different philosophy; very "sportish."  Lots of fancy gear, leather shooting jackets, rubber coated mats, padded gloves, spray on ingredients (to help you stick to everything, to blacken your sights etc.), required sighting scopes, calling out the location of each shot after it's fired.  Everything was done at 100 yards.  Essentially no cadence allowed.  You do 10 slow-fire prone, one round at a time in roughly 10 minutes.  (And they really take a minute for each shot.)  Same with standing...except here is what I found the weirdest thing:  You can use a sling in prone, but you *cannot* use your sling at all in standing.  The reason?  It improves your score if you use the sling.  (Why doesn't the same apply in prone?  Beats me.  I think it's just senseless sporting rules.)  So the standing was pretty much a wash for me.  They use a totally different hold---hand backwards, supporting arm close in on hip.  I did get some 10 point shots standing, but they were few and far between, and I'd say you needed to get on the order of 4 or 5 to be competitive with most of the rest 9s.

With the M1 Carbine I did better.  I think I was third or so out of about 12 with a score of 330 out of 400.  Though the winner was in the high 370s.  (They let you shoot with magazines (5+5), so I could shoot in cadence once the spotter told me I was hitting the tens.)

At the end I asked a couple of them what they recommended in terms of increasing my skills.  They guy from River Bend, immediately wanted to see my rifle.  He started at the trigger guard and said that I needed to bend it in to hold the receiver more securely in the stock.  Then he said I need to tighten the rear sight; then trim some wood off part of the stock to make a space for thermal expansion which makes the wood on top push on the receiver.  Then he got to the front sight, and both our mouths dropped open.  The gas plug was about 1.5 turns loose and the front sight was flapping.  I had tightened it when I cleaned it about a week before, but I guess they loosen up pretty easily.  He said that would be about 40 points right there.  If that estimate is correct, that would put me in the 270 out of 300 range, which would probably have been respectable, but as I say, I think the winner was in the 290s. 

It was fun overall, but I'm not sure I want to spend a lot of time shooting those kind of competitions.  I really like shooting in cadence, and I can't figure out why anyone would want to shoot standing without a sling.  (Though a year ago when I attended my first Appleseed, I couldn't figure out why anyone would want to use a sling at all!)

I'd be interested in any and all comments/feedback.

[Appalacious]

As far as the competition goes, they had to quit allowing slings in standing a long time ago because it was the only way to make it competitive.  Everybody was shooting the same perfect scores til they did that (essentially).  So basically the real competitors are just competing during that stage, every other stage is just score gravy.  Novices compete on every stage of course since none of them are gimmes at the novice level.  I remember I was flabbergasted when I first found out about that, too.

Pretty much everything that guy told you about the garand sounds right not me.  Sometimes you have to ping a blemish into the threads of the gas plug to keep it from walking out.

I like the idea of an appleseed in West GA off I-20.  Thats a big excuse to hit up Anniston.

J

[Col Barrett]

FF,

Glad to hear you got to get out and get some shooting in this weekend. I would consider joining the club you mentioned at those rates. If you get in now, your fees may stay lower than others in the future. Also, you may be on a board or an elder in the club before long and can have a strong voice in requesting an Appleseed at the club. You asked about joining RBGC, you do realize its 900 first year and 600 /yr thereafter. It is an hour north of me, and I think you are about an hour from me. So a two hour trip. Competitions start at 8 on the weekends, so you would have to be on the road by 6. May not be a big deal to you, but that would be a little harsh for me. Their weekend shoots are open to the public, and cost 15 to enter. Seems fair enough, I think I will be a weekend shooter and assuming I got 10 x a year, i spent 150, I am well below their 600 fee. I am pretty sure members pay to shoot in the competitions, but they may not. I think between Appleseeds and some fun shooting comps, 20 or so weekends a year is a realistic expectation between the two.

As for the guy saying you will learn a lot at RBGC, I am sure you may pick up a thing or two, but I can guarantee you, you are getting 100x more out of an Appleseed weekend. Their lessons were brief and not great detail. You may pick up tips and pointers from fellow shooters watching you, which may help your shooting. Personally, I think it would be good to get a hold of a location mid state and out west, exactly where you are talking about. RBGC, does have the nicest shooting facilities I have yet to see. I have heard many people say they haven't seen anything like it out of a private range, it compares to the military in its size and attention to detail.

To answer your questions directly
1)I guess it is your call on joining a club. Those rates are fair, if you want a community of gun shooters to network with outside of Appleseed. Although, you have the land and the deer lease, so that is nice to. I like the competition of shooting against others, but I enjoy shooting by myself or with a friend on private land.
2) Pros and cons. Don't want to act like that is the only reason you want to be a member, but it would be nice to know up front if it is even plausible.
3) I think it is good for your shooting skills to be in a community of shooters where you can have mini competitions. Riverbend certainly has some great shooters, but most of the guys aren't trying to save a country using their shooting skills, by teaching others and learning the history aspect. I think several shooters at RB don't understand what our organization is about. I know a Creedmoor jacket, will help my shooting skills, but our old shooting jackets are a signature of our group and I like mine a lot. I received some comments regarding it when I shot at Riverbend. As for your skills, you have shot rifleman and have attended an IBC and taught your own mini Appleseed. That being said, you obviously understand the fundamentals of shooting, I think from here out it is practice and finding your zin aka shooters bubble.

As for the M1, I would recommend you go visit Ol' Hook in Bremen while he is still around. You will get out for a steal and have a fine rifle after he handles it.

[jollynator]

DO NOT ping the THREADs of the barrel.  Doing so will not help you, you will risk cross threading them after that and will still have a loose gas cylinder.

Take a small ball peen hammer and GENTLY ping the SPLINE RECEPTICLES on the barrel.  If done with too much pressure, you will warp your bore in that area so go easy.  And do it till the gas cylinder is somewhat difficult to slide on but not impossible.  You can over do this.

All you want is the gas cylinder to not move after it is on the barrel.  This basically prevents the front sight from moving and thereby changing your zero.

jon

[Appalacious]

yeah, what he said.

[Deadeye]

"He started at the trigger guard and said that I needed to bend it in to hold the receiver more securely in the stock."


Nope.

The trigger group holds the receiver in the stock by hooking into the bottom of the receiver. The round "tabs" on the trigger guard near the hinge lock into the receiver. The wooden stock is compressed when the trigger guard is locked into firing position. This compression of the wooden stock is what "tightens up" the receiver in the stock. If you are using your M1's original stock, I guarantee you that the wood is permanently compressed under the trigger guard because these rifles were stored for years with the trigger guards locked down. Try your same receiver and trigger group in a new, not a different, a NEW stock. You will find it difficult (perhaps VERY difficult) to close the trigger guard latch because that wood is not compressed yet.  (You can also add thin wood veneer strips under the trigger group assembly on your orginal stock). It can make a big difference in accuracy!

If you get a new stock, or add the veneer strips, be sure to store the rifle with the trigger guard unlatched to prevent compressing the wood again.

Bending the trigger guard won't cure this problem, all that will do is make it more difficult to disassemble the rifle. You want it to be difficult to close, not to open!

The only reason I can think of to bend a trigger guard in that manner would be to prevent it popping open under recoil, and really only the locking "hook" should be bent to cure that.

(Edited to remove snarky comments about your #3 item above. You're way friendlier than me!   )

[sanderman79]

So are we still going as a group the shoot in May? It would be nice to shoot full distance and to all get together outside of AS. I plan on being there and possibly camping on Saturday night. What say you?

Raymon

[Appalacious]

I'm putting it on my "definitely will try to" list.  Which puts me at about 80% likelihood.  (I have a supportive wife    )

[franklinfarmer]

I'm probably 80% too.

[Col Barrett]

Sorry, did I miss something? Which range are we talking about? RBGC or Bremen, I thought the Bremen shoot proposed was the one last weekend. I am planning on going to the field shoot in North Carolina on May 29, and possibly helping out at an Appleseed in the Southeast during the month. Post up what date and I will probably be on board.

[Appalacious]

I'm not real sure where the "May" idea came from, but I like it.  Looks like May 8th is the HP 80 match and May 22nd for the HP 100 reduced match.

Which is better, Barrett?

J

[sanderman79]

It is at River Bend the link is Rifleman's Weekend. We can camp on site and get together not at a AS. Show them how us Appleseeders do it.

Raymon

[Col Barrett]

I heard that rifleman's weekend is a blast and I would love to partake, but I think I got the vibe it is a Garand only event. I only have an M1A, so I am out. They shoot garands and any Military rifle, from ww2 and prior. I could be wrong and hope I am, but I heard them talking about this when I was up there and I don't think the M1A is one of the rifles you can shoot with.

[shaftoe]

I heard that rifleman's weekend is a blast and I would love to partake, but I think I got the vibe it is a Garand only event. I only have an M1A, so I am out. They shoot garands and any Military rifle, from ww2 and prior. I could be wrong and hope I am, but I heard them talking about this when I was up there and I don't think the M1A is one of the rifles you can shoot with.

I shot in the Rifleman's Weekend in 2008.  You are correct.

The first day is a Garand match, split into as issue and modified Garands.

The second day is military vintage bolt action.  I didn't go the second day; I don't have a military vintage bolt action.

A cool part of this is working rifle pits and pulling targets down to be scored.  During slow fire, you're scoring between each shot.  Everyone takes turns shooting and working the pits.

If you have a Garand, or you can beg, borrow, steal, or buy one, it's a lot of fun.

[Appalacious]

I have 2 Garands   

J

[jollymeister]

Ok Ive just wrote it my date book    When it goes in my date book only an act of congress or an Appleseed can change it.
oh yeah jollynator (my brother) bought me a garand for my birthday so I can be in the cool guys club now. Wow what a brother !!! right

amateurs practice till the can do it right,
professionals practice till they cant do it wrong 
salute

[sanderman79]

So it sounds like that Justin and Barrett are gonna be there. So who else is gonna be there? I was told that the Jolly boys are gonna make the trip so us locals should be there for sure.

Raymon

[Appalacious]

Ok Ive just wrote it my date book    When it goes in my date book only an act of congress or an Appleseed can change it.
oh yeah jollynator (my brother) bought me a garand for my birthday so I can be in the cool guys club now. Wow what a brother !!! right

amateurs practice till the can do it right,
professionals practice till they cant do it wrong 
salute

Please don't let CONGRESS affect your plans.  They serve you, right? 

J

[shaftoe]

I'd be going, but my sister-in-law was discourteous enough to schedule her wedding on the same day. 

While the Rifleman's Weekend was scheduled first, I won't live to make the next one if I skip her weddding.

[Appalacious]

Hope everybody's getting ready.  We need to have respectable scores.  Like, you know, a sweep or something.

J


FYI: for the garand match (which i assume everyone will be going to) They use the 200 yds SR target.


The black portion is the 9,10,and X rings.  It is 6.5 moa.  (13 in. at 200 yds).  
Looks like the 10 ring is just over half as wide as the 9.  So that would make it close to (but under) 4 moa.

Start practicing.  We can do very well if we start putting the rounds down range.

[Appalacious]

And maybe the toccoa appleseed the week before would be a great place to run through a "practice" match.   

[sanderman79]

Good call J, Dave and I were talking about the same thing. Dang 4 MOA for a 10 that will be fun. Who id going to Toccoa and the Rifleman's weekend? I am gonna be at both.

[jollynator]

Darn tootin I'm gonna be there.  Maybe if Jollymeister is willing, we can stay for Sunday so I can stretch out my M1903 the GF got me for my B-day!!!  Hey, Meister,  our other guitarist and drummer may come for Sunday too.  They have bone stock M91/30 Russian and M24/47 Yugo Mauser rifles, respectively.

The drummer was at Hinesville back in the fall.  I am working on getting him to another AS and grab a bucket but his schedule is a mother...

jolly

[Appalacious]

I hear those yugo mausers are pretty darn accurate, btw.  Some call it the dark horse of the surplus market.

I'll be there in Toccoa as well as RBGC.  I might have to get in early friday to practice at Toccoa.  Started dry-firing again last night.

[franklinfarmer]

In principle, I can't make it to Toccoa; I've got another commitment that weekend on Charleston.  If there's practicing to be done early Friday, however, I might should show up.  Can Toccoa be made on the way to Charleston?

Also, is there are particular day/event we are planning on for RBGC?  Friday night camping and shoot on Saturday, then go home?  Or Sunday too, or what?

Also, I saw something about "modified" and some such on the application form.  Does anybody know what that means?  Does my "sprained" stock disqualify me?

Also, I'm guessing that spotting scopes are mandatory for this kind of shoot.  I don't have one.  Will some of you all be bringing one or more to share?

[Appalacious]

toccoa to greenville (I-85)
Greenville to I-26 via I-385
I think I-26 goes all the way to Charlestowne.    It'd be a long day, though.

We're planning on the Rifleman's weekend on May 1.  I'd like to camp out on friday night before.  There's also a "cookout" saturday after the shooting, but I'd probably have to skip it to get back home at a reasonable hour.  I don't plan on shooting sunday.  looks like about half the people stay for sunday based on previous years.

I assume modified means bedded stock, trigger job, maybe scope?  don't really know.  proper garand match is as-issued.  but there may be some things you can do to it and stay legal.  Paging VAShooter....

Hopefully somebody can bring a spotting scope or two that we can share.  Maybe we can get into separate groups to make that easier.

[sanderman79]

I have a spotting scope that we all can use. I could be able to camp on Friday night and will stay for Sunday to get the experience at KD.

[VAshooter]

The Garand Match requires an un-modified rifle. It cannot be bedded and the handguards cannot be anchored to the barrel. If you have a new stock the action can be as tight as you want as long as it's not bedded. Same thing with the handguards. Loose handguards will make a Garand inaccurate so you want them tight, but not tight with epoxy. The trigger should break cleanly at four pounds. The sights should move predictably. If you have one minute sights, you want them to move one minute each click. They should move easily enough so that you can adjust your sights without too much effort. You need to mark your "No wind zero" on your sight base so that you can always come back to center when you finish shooting. Always count off your elevation when you finish shooting. Don't think of 200 yards as "up two from one hundred yards." Think of two hundred yards as up eleven from zero, or whatever. Each range has a come-up from zero. That way if there is doubt in your mind, you can count back down to zero and back up to confirm your settings. Always bring your windage back to "No wind zero" as you come off the line. When you are ready to shoot you assess the conditions and put on whatever wind you think you need, knowing that it isn't being added to whatever you had on last relay.
Buy a spray can of sight black and blacken your sights before you shoot. It makes the sights stand out and prevents light from changing your point of impact.
Get a score book and start recording each shot when you practice. Write down anything important. (sun coming in from left moved my group 1/2 minute)( Sun went behind a cloud and I shot 1 minute high).
Remember the six steps. Breath, relax, squeeze and focus hard on the front sight.
Since the handguards should be tight, don't carry your rifle by the handguard or you will cause them to loosen.
If you shoot a bad shot or bad string, don't give up. Everyone else will shoot a bad shot too and most of them will quit trying. Put your best into each shot through the match and you will do well.

VAshooter

[Appalacious]

THANKS VA

J