NY Appleseeds WILL continue during the winter months.

[B9]

We are adding some winter shoots to the schedule. First one on board is Albion NY - Barre Center DAR for Feb 27 - 28 2010.

The on site pole barn will have wood stove installed by then so we will have a warm area to to retreat to. Saving a country can not only be done in the summer.

I hate the cold as much as anyone (thats why I moved from San Diego to upstate NY  ) but I will be there and we will do some good.

[Josey Wales]

..Wow February.. Its only October and its winter outside..
..anyway.. I gotz lots of winter cloths I'd love to try out..
.......JW........

[Another D.O.M.]

Saving a country can not only be done in the summer.

True - but there are many things that CAN be done more productively in the winter climate of NY other than freezing our collective arsses off.  These winter shoots will only be productive if you get ordinary people to come to them.

My understanding of the program is that we're attempting to entice ordinary folks into coming to an Appleseed for some history, some heritage, some instruction on shooting and a lot of FUN!

I don't know about the rest of you but I am MANY years past considering lying around in a snow drift freezing my butt off as being fun - and I think you may find that the general population (at least in upstate NY) agrees.  Of course, I may be wrong - it certainly wouldn't be the first time.

I'm not saying we shouldn't make the attempt - I'm just saying we shouldn't get too disappointed if we don't get many customers.

[Vergeltung]

depending upon how that date fits with the kids' school vaca schedule, I'd like to make that one!

[nyrasgt]

B9 and associated NY AS folk,
   Re: winter activities...suggest we also look at clubs having INDOOR ranges.  E.G. Saraspa has 75 ft - probably able to be backed up to 25 meters; Nassau County Rifle Range (next to the the Nassau Coliseum - the NYS Scholastic Riflery Championship Match was held there last year when we couldn't get into West Point...which is another thought-USMA has absolute BEST ranges in NYS)...anyway, Nassau has appx 6 bays of 5 or 6 firing points...Hudson Falls F&G has 8 @ 50 ft with 25m possible, as do Iroquois R&G in Rotterdm, Watervliet R&G (they also have 1000 (!) yds outdoors), and I'm sure there are lots of other ranges which would be appproachable...lines might need to be staggered, but submit this would be a  small price to pay to be able to offer Appleseeds now through March...could even repeat @ Burl Flats using their indoor range...
  Just an alternative to multiple layers of down, snowblowers and plows, hand and footwarmers, and engine block heaters...
  Excelsior,
mad
nyrasgt

[Spanner]

We are adding some winter shoots to the schedule. First one on board is Albion NY - Barre Center DAR for Feb 27 - 28 2010.

The on site pole barn will have wood stove installed by then so we will have a warm area to to retreat to. Saving a country can not only be done in the summer.

I hate the cold as much as anyone (thats why I moved from San Diego to upstate NY  ) but I will be there and we will do some good.

I think I might sign up for this as a shooter.  Really! (Do zombies fear weather?)

[PHenry]

I were toldt not to schedule events in summer down here in sunny FL by more than one person of merit, however we ran two events in August this year (the ugliest month here) and found out that it can be done, with certain adjustments.

My hat is off to ya'll for persisting and braving the harsh weather to "stay the course".

May Lady Liberty warm your souls for as long as you live.

PH

[crak]

We had more people come to Athol, MA in February sub zero temps on over a foot of snow than we did the other two times in the same spot in July combined.

They can't come if it's not on the schedule.

[Vergeltung]

I hit the outdoor range Dec, Jan, Feb and March this past Winter. love it.

[Fred]

Saving a country can not only be done in the summer.

True - but there are many things that CAN be done more productively in the winter climate of NY other than freezing our collective arsses off.  These winter shoots will only be productive if you get ordinary people to come to them.

     There are ordinary folk, and there are ordinary folk willing to put up with more than most ordinary folk are willing to put up with.

     Which in itself is a reason to have AS under less than ideal conditions.

     Sure, attendance will be down, but the ones who show up are likely to 1) be more dedicated/receptive to the AS concept and 2) if we can get them to volunteer, more likely to put the program ahead of their individual comfort.

My understanding of the program is that we're attempting to entice ordinary folks into coming to an Appleseed for some history, some heritage, some instruction on shooting and a lot of FUN!

I don't know about the rest of you but I am MANY years past considering lying around in a snow drift freezing my butt off as being fun - and I think you may find that the general population (at least in upstate NY) agrees.  Of course, I may be wrong - it certainly wouldn't be the first time.

I'm not saying we shouldn't make the attempt - I'm just saying we shouldn't get too disappointed if we don't get many customers.

     So long as we understand, there's time to be concerned about quantity (about all the time) and a time to be concerned more about quality (like winter AS in the north, summer AS in the south). Another way to look at it being that foul weather will keep the 'summer' and 'sunshine' ASers away, and only the 'true' ASers will show, allowing you to focus on the 'real' potential hardcore people.

     That's a plus not to be overlooked.

     Nor should we overlook the suggestion of indoor range Appleseeds - even informal/improvised ranges inside barns might be possible.

    We're not trying to make AS hard to scare away all but the really dedicated; simply working to make this a year-round program while working to understand there are good reasons to do so - and to take advantage of 'em...

     

PS: Having frozen solid at too many Appleseeds, and roasted at too many Appleseeds, I understand the concept of keeping the suffering to a minimum. 'Adverse Appleseeds' are probably gonna be a "young man's game" more than for us mature people. So let's us old folk step out of the way, and let the younger instructors show what they can do.

PPS: "man" includes both sexes...

[gunville]

It's tough to shoot prone in snow up to your waist. 

Upstate winter is very different than the Souther Tier, Down-state or Capital.  Lake-effect can create white-outs, and drop 12" overnight with no warning and no idea how long it will last.  Oswego had 12' (yes, 12 feet) in 10 days the year before last. 

I'm not sure if folks that showed up would be more dedicated/receptive or just plain nuts.

Alternatives to the shoot/story paradigm really ought to be considered.

Heck, sleding would probably draw better than shooting to allow the story be told.  Even offering to tell it to scout troops, church groups, or at the local library over warm cider.

More of the revolution was won over ale than lead.

[Fred]

It's tough to shoot prone in snow up to your waist. 

      That's certainly true. But it's been done before, and it'll be done again.

      Appleseed's motto is "Improvise, adapt, and overcome" and we are known, when the occasion arises, as "the Appleseed engineers".

     Such persistence is not for everyone.

     But when we do it, it pays off...

     Uniting and working together - Appleseeders and RWVA Instructors alike - creates bonding hard to duplicate anywhere else. Adversity and the joy (and job) of overcoming it, does that.

     We have a reputation, hard-won and not likely to be duplicated elsewhere in other programs, of getting the job done - so there have been Appleseeds in snow, rain, sleet, sub-freezing temps, boiling hot temps, windstorms, hurricanes (at least the tail-end of same), sandstorms, duststorms - any time and any where we can persuade the targets to stay on the backers. Even when "tornado warning" sirens are screaming in the distance... (In Phoenix, AZ a couple of years ago, standing on the line, I noticed out of the corner of my eye a piece of 6" X 6" wood rolling down the firing line, blown by the wind, and thinking, "You don't see that, everyday".
)

Upstate winter is very different than the Souther Tier, Down-state or Capital.  Lake-effect can create white-outs, and drop 12" overnight with no warning and no idea how long it will last.  Oswego had 12' (yes, 12 feet) in 10 days the year before last. 

I'm not sure if folks that showed up would be more dedicated/receptive or just plain nuts.

Sort 'em out, and recruit the good ones...

Alternatives to the shoot/story paradigm really ought to be considered.

Heck, sleding would probably draw better than shooting to allow the story be told.  Even offering to tell it to scout troops, church groups, or at the local library over warm cider.

More of the revolution was won over ale than lead.

     Come up with better alternatives - "better" always beats good....

[Another D.O.M.]

I worked with a fellow once who used to perform mechanical repairs (engine/trans. swaps, exhaust system R&R, tune-ups, etc.) during the NYC winters outdoors.  He said when it got really cold and windy they'd pack snow up against the side of the car to block the wind and cold while working underneath.  He always grew a beard in the winter 'cause he had frost-bitten his face on one such occasion.  He said it kept the frost-bitten area from being as sensitive during the colder months.

It can be done, and with our ingenuity it will be done.  As Fred points out, one of our best features as an organization is our ability to improvise and just get the job done.  As Appleseeders we all work with an incredibly talented and diverse segment of the population.  As long as everyone gets involved and applies themselves to this new challenge - in whatever way(s) they can - it will be successful.

For my part, I would certainly prefer an indoor range; but I will do what is required within my scope of abilities and limitations (first and foremost, the insulin must not become frozen!).

Any time someone is experiencing doubts about holding shoots during the winter months in the northern U.S. climates, it may be helpful to think of the soldiers at Valley Forge PA during the winter of 1777-'78...

[Another D.O.M.]

PS: Having frozen solid at too many Appleseeds, and roasted at too many Appleseeds, I understand the concept of keeping the suffering to a minimum. 'Adverse Appleseeds' are probably gonna be a "young man's game" more than for us mature people. So let's us old folk step out of the way, and let the younger instructors show what they can do.

I like that.  Maybe I'll go by "Another Dangerous Mature Person" (at least 'till all of my hair has changed color).

[PHenry]

I was asked to schedule and run a shoot in a little town on southern border of Lake Okeechobee in south Florida in August by a local County Commisoner, who was approached by our own DoubleLife.  http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=8932.0

Unless you're from around here, trust me when I tell you most folks cannot imagine how hot it can git when both temp and humidity approach 100 at the same time. Failing that trust, please spare me any tales of how hot it gits in New York or Michigan. 

I didn't expect much in terms of numbers - maybe a dozen or so. I had underestimated my fellow Americans, as there were 31 waiting for us to arrive! Sure, many dropped out as the day progressed, but there was a family of three that stuck it out both days till the end - man, woman and child.

Now I know that some people, even modern Americans, place a high price upon their Liberty. Never underestimate the grit of a true American Patriot as so many have in the past. 

Obviously, this differs from challenges of a cold climate, but understand that we did this event under a very real threat of great bodily harm or death and had to take precautions to avoid same (covered line, fans, mandatory pre-hydration, etc.) The point is that changes can be made to accommodate nearly any condition and if we build it, some will come.

[B9]

I have nothing against indoor shoots. Sounds like the only real solution for some of the NYC area locations.
As far as the rest of NY....
If people will go out in the weather for hunting, skiing, snowmobiling, work, etc. why would they not go out to save their county?

Is the mission not worth it?

[nyrasgt]

B9 et. al.,
  Mission absolutely worth it. regardless of in- or outdoor As...
That said, with legwork winter of 10-11 could see AS wkends on alternating wkends...Saraspa and B Flats are no brainers, Nassau Co has huge, public range w. 30 yds possible, and there are lots of other facilities worth investigating.
   Submit that the average, non-hunter, non-regular shooter would have to think  much harder about shooting outdoors in Dec-March in NY rather than indoors during the same time period.  Doable?   Absolutely.  More difficult to concentrate on the 6 steps, SHFs of the positions, Redcoats and QDAQTs?  Yes, unquestionably.  Can we do both?  Yup.  Why leave any tern unstoned?
  Excelsior,
mad
nyrasgt

[gunville]

Do we have the ability to give patches on 50' pistol ranges?

[Nut Farmer]

The NY Barre Center DAR will be prepared!  My new 28' X 32' pole barn will be good shelter, especially with electricity, lighting and a 150,000 BTU wood furnace (to be installed by the February Appleseed.  All we need to do is keep the fire burning and it will be very toasty to come in out of the cold.  Just like we are used to doing up here in NWNY with our other winter sports - we know snow, wind and cold!  If we didn't do things like this to get out of the house and have something fun to look forward to during this time of year when it's just been white outside for too many months straight, we get a little cabin crazy.  Once football season is over it sucks.

I have a monster John Deere 48" snow blower that will enable me to clear of the parking area, the pole barn and the range so we aren't trudging across the tundra and feel like we are in the winter battle for Stalingrad in WWII, which was a real challenge for man against nature.  All we have to do is pry ourselves our of the nice heated pole barn for courses of shooting with maybe more frequent breaks and history/instruction lessons so nobody gets really uncomfortable.  We'll of course be at the mercy of our Shoot Boss who we can only hope tends towards the cold blooded side of average so they get cold too after a reasonable time outside before allowing us to run for the heat. 

Doug

[gunville]

Keep in mind it was the snow that kept both Napolean and Hitler from capturing Moscow, both within miles, both incorrectly thinking they were prepared for the Russian winter.

Christen the NY DAR "Bastogne" for winter shoots then, with a tripple play pun on "Nuts" (McAuliffe/Orchard/shooters)

Doug - how are situated with pitch forks?  The barn sounds too cushey - we'll need pitch forks to get shooters away from the heat and back to the line... 

How about a Cappacino maker? 

[nyrasgt]

Gnvl, B9 et. al.,
  Per previous posts, not an "either/or" situation for NY winter AS...both!
 
  Like the hard core minute men of 19 April, 1775 - many of whom went on to join Washington's Continentals and endure winter at Valley Forge, some shooters today will not view winter as something they choose to avoid.  They will show up and shoot AS regardless of venue or climate. 

   Folks new to AS and/or to shooting are not going to need the added handicap of freezing temperatures, snow, ice, and multiple layers of clothing...they'll be uncomfortable enough in the 4 positions...I was, in warm sunlight!
   Recommend trying to attract them to Saraspa - Nassau County Range...and as many others as we can find and convince to support AS.   Providing the opportunity
is the only way to get them to show up...rather than giving them an excuse for not showing up...can't tell them the history if they're not there to listen.
   Just some thoughts.
Excelsior,
mad
nyrasgt

Just

[Nut Farmer]

I do have plenty of pitchforks, prybars, cattle prods, and a Brown Bess with Bayonette that may help the Shoot Boss get the shooters back to the line.  I would expect that if the weather is bad (what, in WNY in late Feb - it should be great! ) we may get more classroom training than normal.  There are crazy WNY'ers that will do most anything to get out of house during our five months of snowcover.  Plus I would much rather shoot in 20F with snow than 40F and rain any day.  Either way there is nothing new on the tube but Figure Skating to watch on a weekend afternoon that time of year.  No more football.  No more deer hunting. (KILL ME).

The Instructor Boot Camp we are holding in March should be ideal in the heated pole barn for the weekend as it is all classroom training.  I just hope we can get a couple more Orange Hats at the upcoming Appleseed on October 31 - November 1 at the Albion, Barre Center DAR.  That one will be nice (well decent) weather as long as you don't do the sitting or prone position on a chestnut burr - ouch!

We need a lot of new instructors here in NY to staff all the 2010 shoots already on the schedule, not to mention the ones yet to be added (what about that Jamestown and St. Lawrence areas?) so nobody is overwhelmed or gets burned out and we do not short our attendees of a fully staffed shoot.  We are responsible to give them what they pay for and should expect from a top notch professional organization like RWVA.  As NY and PA Promotions Boss I am focusing very heavy on youth shooters as I strongly believe they are our best bet for the future as well as in need of our expert training services.  They will require full staffing to meet their higher demands as new shooters.  Once I can get the NY and PA home schooling networks, the Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts and 4-H on board, we will see incredible growth in our shoot attendance - but at the same time we need to meet that demand correctly and not just shove them through.  The effect of giving these groups a great educational experience that they can justify to their senior staff/councils will mushroom in to more than I think we can understand.  At least I hope so...

Doug

[Vergeltung]

Farmer, that was really well said, especially as regards the youth.

[sgtrock]

I'll shoot, any weather, anytime ,anywhere, but I prefer 10 degrees with cloud cover to keep down the glare. this is also my best hunting weather. I'll be there guys, to shoot or to teach, what ever it takes to keep this going. sgtrock

[Fred]

     

[M1Tanker]

I'll shoot, any weather, anytime ,anywhere, but I prefer 10 degrees with cloud cover to keep down the glare. this is also my best hunting weather. I'll be there guys, to shoot or to teach, what ever it takes to keep this going. sgtrock

And my stupid self will be right there to.  Miserable and cold but still holding a rifle 

[Another D.O.M.]

And my stupid self will be right there to.  Miserable and cold but still holding a rifle 

Hmmm - that's right, there's heat in the Abrams, isn't there?  BTW, instructors don't get to shoot, they just get to be "miserable and cold".  If you're lucky you get to be RSO and can warm your hands over the hot barrels as you're clearing the line...

[nyrasgt]

ADOM et. al.,
    Cold (in upstate NY in winter) will not be much of a surprise...thus the following, for folks not
from  around here...
    a)  chemical handwarmers...very popular @ Burl Flats last time out...thanks to the Moms...
    b)  catalytic handwarmers:  the Jon-ee, lighter fluid kind...
    c)  really good gloves, mittens, and hats (winter wisdom is that if one's hands or feet are cold, cover head),
    d)  bigger camping and other heaters, catalytic and otherwise, like ADOM brought to recent DAR in Albion...
    e)  indoor (Saraspa, 25 m, and Hudson Falls Fish and Game Club @ 50 ft) AS shoots, wearing normal, indoor
        clothing.  Will be talking to HF F&G C tomorrow night, and emailing tfelog re Saraspa winter shoots...will
        advise...have to keep hitting that 7th step...
    f)  appx 70% committed to BF IBC 12/5 and 6...working on the other 30%...
Excelsior,
mad
nyrasgt

[Gordon]

...
Christen the NY DAR "Bastogne" for winter shoots then, with a tripple play pun on "Nuts" (McAuliffe/Orchard/shooters)
...

I'm not nuts enough to voluntarily winter at Bastogne, but I would love the challenge of spending at weekend there! In February, this end of Lake Erie is not nearly as interesting as your end, weatherwise.

It's too early for me to commit 100% but consider me "likely"! Perhaps even as a shooter. In any case I'll look forward to seeing how this idea develops.

-FM

[Xena]

I'll shoot, any weather, anytime ,anywhere, but I prefer 10 degrees with cloud cover to keep down the glare. this is also my best hunting weather. I'll be there guys, to shoot or to teach, what ever it takes to keep this going. sgtrock

And my stupid self will be right there to.  Miserable and cold but still holding a rifle 

Count me in !!