First year, first semester, first day

[LDB415]

I just recently learned of Appleseed existence. I know nothing about it other than it sounds fun. I'll be wandering in a lost fashion but are there certain things one should read/check first to aid in acclimating? My "good" rimfire is a CZ457 American awaiting its maiden voyage. But I understand bolt actions are not conducive to doing well. I have a stock 1103 Ruger also just obtained. Not ideal probably but is it adequate? I've been a handgun shooter up to now. I also just got my also not yet fired by me M1 carbine that was my dad's.

So what do I need to know about pursuing this adventure both from the doing and equipping sides? And where is the best place to find the information so I can read and reread until it sticks? Thanks for any and all help.

[ShooterMagoo]

That Ruger 10/22 sounds perfect to me. Cheap shooting, reliable, and plenty accurate for the practical type of marksmanship taught in the 25M clinics. Take a look here for instructions on a setup that's perfect for the techniques discussed: https://appleseedinfo.org/pdf/Assemble%20a%20Liberty%20Training%20Rifle.pdf

After that, the real magic happens when you attend an Appleseed. I saw in your Texas check-in post that you're in the Houston area. There are numerous events scheduled in Texas. There's one in January in Fredericksburg, and in February there's Fredericksburg and Waco. Check the calendar here to see what works for your schedule: https://appleseedinfo.org/schedule/?qstate=TX&state=Texas

[ScubaSteve]

Hi LDB415,

I am going to bet you will get a bunch of answers to your questions. The great thing is you are asking. Good for you and here is my take.

Appleseed is all about teaching you to shoot well with a "rack grade" rifle. What does rack grade mean you ask. Well, something you can buy off the shelf or just pull out of the gun cabinet. A rifle does not need major modifications to come to an Appleseed all it needs is a rifleman or women behind it with an open mind and willingness to learn.

That Ruger 1022 you have is perfect. All you really need is a GI sling attached to it, and you are good to go. I would not ask your age on an open forum but if you are like me and have old eyes maybe add a peep sight or a scope. If you are a good seeing young buck no need even for that.

I would recommend you read a little on our Appleseed site and then sign up for a shoot. Some folks read every web site they can and study for days only to come to the event and find that they worked in the wrong direction. You need an open mind to learn and if you read the entire internet before your first event your mind will be much more cluttered than open.

Just my opinion of course.
Have a great event.

[LDB415]

I have no problem with telling I'm almost 69 and finally mostly recovered from cataract surgery in the spring. I no longer wear glasses after almost 60 years with them. Talk about getting used to.

I have Tech Sights somewhere other than the exact spot on the desk where I put and left them a year or so ago when I heard about them somewhere and bought a set. I guess when I order another set they will turn up again. I also have a web sling somewhere bought for a Universal M1 carbine. Looks like I need one more of those.

I saw something about $20 and thought oh, this is great for old fixed budget folks. Then I looked more and saw that's the range fee and the Appleseed fee is $85. So I'll make it a budget item instead of an on a lark item. But there's one match near enough I can drive to/from and not need hotel etc. fees.

I presume the $85 fee is to shoot the event one time? Is attendance both days needed or is one day enough? In the 25M .22lr are there any specific ammo requirements? How many rounds for a full course of fire? I know, I'm going to find all those answers as I roam the site, but I'm a major question asker.

Oh, and does anyone ever shoot the 25M with an M1 carbine?

Thanks everyone for being welcoming and helpful.

[mmirate]

$85 is indeed for each weekend. If you must attend only one day, attend Saturday - almost every topic is covered on Saturday, whereas Sunday is when you get more practice, coaching and a small handful of topics like how to apply to the Rifleman's Quarter Mile the skills you've learned at 25 meters.

No specific ammo requirements on .22LR - whatever is reliable and doesn't disagree with your rifle will suffice. 

For a long time we've told people to bring 500 rounds for the weekend, but lately we've tried to get that under control so that there's more purpose and instruction behind each round going downrange and less money-into-noise; as a result, over the past few years I have seen relatively few 25m rifle weekends that took more than 400 rounds per shooter.

I've never seen an M1 carbine on an Appleseed firing line.

[Zorak]

I also have an M1 carbine that my father handed down to me. Sentimentally, I want to say you should bring it. Practically speaking, on a 25m range, I don't know why anyone would rather fire 400 rounds of centerfire ammo than 400 rounds of rimfire. Ammoseek shows .30 Carbine being almost ten times the cost of CCI standard velocity .22LR.

[LDB415]

Yes, I had no idea of the course of fire and was thinking maybe 50-60 rounds, something less than 100, like a Glock match. But 400 is not cheap even in rimfire and definitely not centerfire, even if loading your own. I'll stick with 22lr and if I get in a really wild and spendy mood maybe look into 22 or 17 WMR, if those are even allowed.

[DEH]

If you haven't already, I recommend starting with our homepage and looking under the "How to Prepare" tab for starters.

https://appleseedinfo.org/

Under that tab the FAQs will take you various "How to Prepare Guides" and information about rifles, pricing, etc.

[Mrs. Smith]

I have no problem with telling I'm almost 69 and finally mostly recovered from cataract surgery in the spring. I no longer wear glasses after almost 60 years with them. Talk about getting used to.

I have Tech Sights somewhere other than the exact spot on the desk where I put and left them a year or so ago when I heard about them somewhere and bought a set. I guess when I order another set they will turn up again. I also have a web sling somewhere bought for a Universal M1 carbine. Looks like I need one more of those.

I saw something about $20 and thought oh, this is great for old fixed budget folks. Then I looked more and saw that's the range fee and the Appleseed fee is $85. So I'll make it a budget item instead of an on a lark item. But there's one match near enough I can drive to/from and not need hotel etc. fees.

I presume the $85 fee is to shoot the event one time? Is attendance both days needed or is one day enough? In the 25M .22lr are there any specific ammo requirements? How many rounds for a full course of fire? I know, I'm going to find all those answers as I roam the site, but I'm a major question asker.

Oh, and does anyone ever shoot the 25M with an M1 carbine?

Thanks everyone for being welcoming and helpful.

welcome to the family, fellow Texan

Here's some help with the ticket price: https://goappleseednow.org/?event=christmas-gift-certificate-2025%20

it brings the price of a two-day clinic down to about $64 (instead of $85) and they're available at that price until the 7th of January. They take about 2 weeks to come in. Nothing says you can't buy a gift certificate for yourself!

I hope that helps!

[LDB415]

Thank you. I found that a bit ago and ordered one. Every little bit helps.

[LDB415]

How to ask this coherently. What is the maximum number of rounds shot without a break to have time to reload mags? Are there any stages where a partially empty mag needs changed prior to emptying fully? And is there any difference in scoring between scoped and iron sights?

[Jake1918]

Appleseed uses "reload" to mean introduce cartridges into a firearm and "prep" to mean insert cartridges into a feeding device.

The maximum number of a rounds in a given course of fire is 40 for a rapid fire AQT. This is done at shoot boss discretion and will happen at most once per day. All other courses of fire will involve 10 rounds or less, but may require a magazine change.

There are no stages where a partially empty mag is changed without fully emptying the magazine. At Appleseed this is called a "hot reload" and is explicitly forbidden.

[LDB415]

Thank you. So if I bring one case of loaded magazines, 6 of them, I have more than enough to get from one prep time to another plus I have a couple extra in case of malfunction or whatever.

Oh, the ~400 rounds of ammo are total for both days of the event? If one is only going to attend day one about how many rounds for that one day?

And is there any difference in scoring for scoped vs. iron sights?

[Jake1918]

If you bring 6 prepped 10 round mags you will have enough + spares. There will be time to prep mags. The ~400 rounds is enough for both days. On day 1 it's ~120 rounds on day 2 ~200. I personally always err on the side of caution, so I would bring ~200 rounds for day 1.

There is no difference for scoring unless you are going for distinguished which is 240+/250 for optics and 230+ for irons.

[ShooterMagoo]

Thank you. So if I bring one case of loaded magazines, 6 of them, I have more than enough to get from one prep time to another plus I have a couple extra in case of malfunction or whatever.

Oh, the ~400 rounds of ammo are total for both days of the event? If one is only going to attend day one about how many rounds for that one day?

And is there any difference in scoring for scoped vs. iron sights?

Bring the mags, but I wouldn't stress too much about loading them ahead of time, since different courses of fire have different loading requirements. They'll call out the loading before each course, and you have prep time before going to the line.

One thing that's pretty important to me is being able to easily remove the sling from the rifle between courses. The clip that comes with a Garand sling is good enough for the back loop, if you set the 10/22 up with the swivels shown in the Liberty Training Rifle guide. For the front loop, I've seen various quick-disconnect type connections. I like the style in the link below as they're free of springs, hinges, or other fiddly bits. If you get one, make sure it's for 1.25" webbing.
https://extremeoutfitters.com/products/1-25-inch-low-profile-mash-hook-25332

[LDB415]

One thing that's pretty important to me is being able to easily remove the sling from the rifle between courses.

Why is that? (This looks like a good learning opportunity)

[Mrs. Smith]

You're going to be getting in and out of your sling repeatedly. It's a process.

That said, until my students show a reasonably high degree of proficiency in doing so, I typically don't let them use any shortcuts to that process.

Why? Because if they don't learn the proper way to sling up and repeat it over and over for a day or two, then in a month or two when they go back to the range there's a VERY high probability they won't remember how to do it correctly without a coach to guide them.

[LDB415]

Oh, so that's part of the process of removing sling/rifle from one's person, not just removing it once the rifle is parked on the bench?

[Mrs. Smith]

Something like that. We teach you how to use a sling for stability, since we don't use benches or rests of any kind. In order for that to work you have to "wear" it.

I highly recommend some yoga. Heck I recommend that ANYWAY. Simple stuff. No need to get fancy. There are lots of YouTube channels with yoga for seniors.

[Gus]

Oh, and does anyone ever shoot the 25M with an M1 carbine?

Funny you should ask....

I too have a .30 Carbine and it's a hoot, uh, to shoot .

Levity aside, I shot mine extensively in Idaho a couple of years ago.  My wife and I do quite a bit of volunteering around the country at campgrounds, state parks and other facilities. In the spring and summer of 2024, we were in Glenns Ferry, Idaho and I was surrounded by 100s of square miles of Public Land.

So, I did a LOT of shooting with various rifles and pistols. One of them was my .30 carbine.  With it I shot the 100 yard Rifmire AQT: Standing at 25, seated at 50, prone at 75, and slow prone at 100. I followed all the time limits and mag changes associated with an AQT. On my third attempt, I was able to post a Rifleman's score. This little rifle is, at best, a 5 MOA rifle (maybe closer to 7 or 8 MOA) with me running it. It'll shoot four, five or six into a decent group, and then an uncalled flyer will open the group and make my head hurt.

The picture doesn't really capture all my shots fired. I had this target stapled to a cardboard backer. Six hits are shown outside the black. There were three that missed the whole target and punched holes in the backer. But, there are 41 legitimate hits in the black and that made me happy.



Even though this is very unofficial it does indicate what can be done with the little rifle if you persist, learn as you go, and make adjustments.  I used the standard sling that is normally attached to the Carbine-the carry strap that kind of hooks around the oiler. I had a difficult time with the sling. Could only use it in the Hasty configuration (something you'll learn in Hempstead) and the trigger pull on my carbine is pretty heavy. I'm guessing 7-10 lbs.

I reload my brass relatively inexpensively, so, maybe someday, just for fun, I'll give it a go at an official 25 meter clinic.

This year we'll be spending the Spring and Summer volunteering in the Black Hills of South Dakota. I'll be back in my old hunting grounds (read: many square miles of public land) and will do an extensive amount of long range shooting.  The little carbine will come along too. This time I'll shoot it in a 200 yard RF AQT course of fire.

Anyway, just wanted to share with you that it's possible to do ok with the little carbine on an Appleseed course of fire.

Gus

[LDB415]

Oh, and does anyone ever shoot the 25M with an M1 carbine?

Funny you should ask....

I too have a .30 Carbine and it's a hoot, uh, to shoot .

Levity aside, I shot mine extensively in Idaho a couple of years ago.  My wife and I do quite a bit of volunteering around the country at campgrounds, state parks and other facilities. In the spring and summer of 2024, we were in Glenns Ferry, Idaho and I was surrounded by 100s of square miles of Public Land.

So, I did a LOT of shooting with various rifles and pistols. One of them was my .30 carbine.  With it I shot the 100 yard Rifmire AQT: Standing at 25, seated at 50, prone at 75, and slow prone at 100. I followed all the time limits and mag changes associated with an AQT. On my third attempt, I was able to post a Rifleman's score. This little rifle is, at best, a 5 MOA rifle with me running it. It'll shoot four, five or six into a decent group, and then an uncalled flyer will open the group and make my head hurt.

The picture doesn't really capture all my shots fired. I had this target stapled to a cardboard backer. Six hits are shown outside the black. There were three that missed the whole target and punched holes in the backer. But, there are 41 legitimate hits in the black and that made me happy.



Even though this is very unofficial it does indicate what can be done with the little rifle if you persist, learn as you go, and make adjustments.  I used the standard sling that is normally attached to the Carbine-the carry strap that kind of hooks around the oiler. I had a difficult time with the sling. Could only use it in the Hasty configuration (something you'll learn in Hempstead) and the trigger pull on my carbine is pretty heavy. I'm guessing 7-10 lbs.

I reload my brass relatively inexpensively, so, maybe someday, just for fun, I'll give it a go at an official 25 meter clinic.

This year we'll be spending the Spring and Summer volunteering in the Black Hills of South Dakota. I'll be back in my old hunting grounds (read: many square miles of public land) and will do an extensive amount of long range shooting.  The little carbine will come along too. This time I'll shoot it in a 200 yard RF AQT course of fire.

Anyway, just wanted to share with you that it's possible to do ok with the little carbine on an Appleseed course of fire.

Gus

Wow, thanks for sharing all this. It's a great answer. I've got an oiler sling but it isn't installed yet. Even though it's only a Universal and not a WWII carbine I won't be screwing swivels into the stock to do a correct sling placement. I'm keeping it exactly as it was as my dad's rifle. I hope I can become a tolerably good shooter of it.

It sounds like you guys have great times in your volunteer endeavors and good you have time for your own pursuits some too. This year you and the M1 will likely put every shot into the black and have a new great story to tell.

[wingwrench]

When you want to gain proficiency with your bolt rifle...

  Search for "Father Frog's Pad". He has a TON of excellent firearms related information.

  He has a group of articles on "Bolt Gun Manipulation". Read it, ponder it,get into position, and figure out how to make the concepts work for YOU.

  If I were more skilled with a computer, I'd have a link for you. But alas, I am not.

[mmirate]

That is probably https://www.frfrogspad.com/bolt.htm and if you take out the "bolt.htm" part you'll get to his homepage.

[LDB415]

Cool site. Lots of interesting pages there.