Project Appleseed

Quote from: fepowered on June 25, 2009, 12:32:24 PM

Quote from: Rhodes on June 24, 2009, 01:52:44 PM
They slip unfortunately especially if you are sweating which given our weather is 9 months a year.

Quote from: Rhodes on June 25, 2009, 12:18:23 PM
Slipping down my arm, I only use the hasty sling since I only shoot standing. Buckle slippage is very easy to fix.

Although I personally prefer the cotton, both can be used with success.  It sounds like you are not using a shooting jacket.  Even if you are only shooting standing, at a minimum one of the "Fred's" jackets can help stability.  A shooting jacket helps keep sweat from causing a loop sling to slip.  If you are using a loop sling, the buckle should be on the top side of your bicep and rotated to the outside.  This will naturally cause it to cinch on your arm and stay in place.   

Yeah that would work except when its 100 degrees and 98% humidity and  that sun is beating down I would pass on a jacket and just stick with cotton slings.

Yeah Im a wussy... 

I just did a trigger job on my 795, figured I'd write about it here.

Things I needed before beginning:

1.  A spare 795 or similar Marlin action to compare against, "just in case."  I had one, so I kept it in 1 piece and handy for comparison.
2.  2  1.44 MB Floppy disks.
3.  A small jewelers flathead screwdriver
4.  A whetstone for sharpening knives
5.  A proper flathead screwdriver for working on gun screws.
6.  A well lit and clean place for disassembling small parts.
7.  A small paperclip.

A little background:  I've got an older Marlin autoloader very similar to the 795, but slightly different.  It's been a tackdriver up until the Appleseed Kids started rubbing the muzzle on concrete and into the dirt, and then it started losing accuracy.  Go figure.  The hammer broke back at Boulder City earlier this year, and I replaced it with the new style hammer.

So, I go out and buy a new 795 to bulk up the LTR population a bit, and hurriedly slap a cheap Swift 3-9x40 up on top of it since I didn't have any tech sights handy.

The thing didn't shoot straight at all.  Two inch groups from prone at 25 yards would be a good group with it.

Last week, I did some barrel channel relieving.  All I used was a sharp pocket knife and some rough grit sandpaper, then a hot glue gun and a small piece of scrap plastic later.  I noticed that the stock had a tendency to wrap around the barrel slightly and try to hold it.  I shaved this down and away from the barrel, and then sanded it as smooth as I had patience.  It is just a nylon stock, after all.  Then, on the forward edge of the stock just underneath the barrel, I built up a little shelf out of hot glue.  I then put my small piece of scrap plastic on top of this shelf ( the scrap plastic was about 1/16 of an inch thick, about 1/4 inch square in size) and hot glued it into place.  This put consistent upwards tension on the barrel away from the stock to eliminate any areas I might have possibly missed... it also mitigates some of the downwards tension put on the stock by slinging up.

I took it out and shot it, and got a 10 shot string from prone into 1/2 an inch.  I was happy, but the trigger was wretched.  Around 10 pounds.

Today I gave it a partial trigger job... there are still a few more things left to do.

To disassemble, you remove the two screws at the bottom of the action.  Pull the trigger assembly down and out of the stock, being careful of the bolt release that slides through it.  Then pull the receiver out from the top of the action.  There is a plastic pin at the back end of the receiver holding the firing assembly into the receiver... pull it out.  You can now remove the firing assembly.  Set the barreled receiver aside.

About 1/3 of the way back on the firing assembly is a large spring on a strut, attached to the hammer.  The strut has a small hole at the end of it and it passes through a flat piece of metal horizontal to the firing assembly.  Put the paperclip through the hole.  This will trap the spring so it doesn't go flying off into orbit during the next step.

The firing assembly is held together with little clips.  I can't remember if they're called E-clips or C-clips, but they look like a hybrid C or E shape.  You'll want to pull these E-clips off with your small jewelers flathead screwdriver, being careful to trap them in place so they don't fly away.  I like to take the "right" side of the firing assembly apart and leave all the pieces in place on the "left" panel of it.

At this point you can lift the sear off of its pin, and set aside the original sear spring.  You can also remove the hammer from its pin.

I used a whetstone on the sear and on the hammer notch, and they REALLY needed it.  The sear appears to be made from stamped steel and then cut with minimal or no finish work.  Stoning it revealed exactly how rough the engagement surface was.  I brought it to an even shine.  The hammer notch was also pretty rough and received the same treatment.

I then removed the sear spring and replaced it with a floppy disc shutter spring.  This has the EXCELLENT side effect of disabling the magazine disconnector.  The rifle can now be dry-fired with a lighter spring on the sear spring.  I am concerned that I may not get complete sear engagement and that slamfires might be possible, or failure for the hammer to lock back at least.  I'll be testing that thoroughly this weekend with AZRon and AZGromit.  The floppy spring had to be bent to approximate the contours of the original spring, but that appears to not be a problem at all.

After the sear spring and disconnector modification, I took out the trigger return spring and replaced it with another floppy disc shutter spring.  This is located in the lower trigger housing.  To remove, you use a punch, an allen wrench or small philips jewelers screwdriver and push the pin out to the left side of the trigger.  The replacement floppy spring had to be shaped to follow the trigger contour across, and then trimmed on the pivot leg so that it appeared the same as the discarded one.  I then cleaned, lubed and reassembled the rifle and tested for effect.

I estimated the trigger pull at about 10 pounds before any work.  It was strong enough that I had a really hard time holding on target while breaking the trigger.  After the work was completed, the trigger breaks now under the weight of six coke cans suspended by a string in a shopping sack.  Assuming each can is 3/4 of a pound, that's about a 4-5 pound trigger.  Not magnificent, but certainly use-able.

It also makes me wonder just how many shooters truly have crappy guns on the line.  This 795, after a couple of elbow grease sessions, is definitely a shooter.  Prior to that though, it was a piece of junk.  I was shooting circles around this gun with my M14, which just didn't make any sense to me at all.  Historically the big .308 tends to expose more errors in my shooting form, not hide them.

Me being part of the "gun culture" and knowing my Rifleman chops (as well as having a closet full of rifles to compare against for accuracy), I was able to point to the rifle being the culprit here and did the appropriate work.  A new shooter, though?  One who is doing the homework and otherwise is potentially shooting well, but can't get those dang 1" squares or the 400 yard stage of the AQT?  Wow, I feel sorry for him or her.  "Talking Targets" would have him believing that he's at fault somehow... when it's really a bad stock/action fit or his trigger is 12 pounds and he simply doesn't KNOW what a good trigger feels like.

All I can say, is persist!  And don't be afraid to go elbows-deep in your rifle, or have a smith work it over.

From the gunsmith perspective, I'll add this to AZRedhawks post:
Only polish the sear face being careful no to change the angles same with the hammer notch.
By polish 400 grit or finer and maybe a dozen strokes very carefully.

I prefer to leave springs along.
To reduce the pull on a 795 you make the hammer notch shallower, just like a 1911.  Measure it with a mike and begin by removing 1/10th of the engagement by filing. If you do not know where to file, you should NOT do the job.

Such work as you do is your own folly ( you do it your butt is in the sling). I'll tell you straight out that I make most of my filthy lucre in the gun business by remediating the mistakes of others    

Right there with you Sam......

Although, on other firearms, sometimes springs can make a huge diff......

I had to laugh @ your last line....most of my "filthy lucre" with firearms usually comes about because the owner did not know how to clean their weapon properly....or auction pieces that had -never- been cleaned.....and then broken......

I always liked the S&W basket cases when Joe Owner had pulled the side plate, & it "didn't work" anymore.....

AZRed, it sounds like you pretty much went thru the trigger on that one of yours, and the stoning work is indeed needed.......but I'm inclined to agree with Sam on spring replacements.....esp with a "non orthodox source" of replacements....I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure somebody like Wolff Springs probably has a "tune up" kit available......on a loaner, we stand some what responsible for the condition of our gear......and "modified w/o original parts" will make any DA's heart sing when the lab tells them what happened......(too many ATF horror stories not to be true.....)

As to the new folk who can't make it happen? I always see this as a bit of "new guitar player".....folks who want to learn how to play guitar don't runout and buy a "name guitar", they pick up whatever is at WallyWorld, or Target......and I can guarantee the action on -those- guitars is nowhere near a nicely set up Les Paul, or Fender, or Kramer, or......they'll make your fingers bleed, if you play 'em long enough.....but usually, after a bit of struggling with their POS guitar, they wander into a real guitar shop, & try one of those "high $$" guitars....and decide right there that they need to start saving their pennies & dimes so they can get one of "those"........

How often after having a newbie try one of your "babies" that's been massaged a bit, the people return it with that look in their eyes, and say: "I really need to get one of these...." <

My $.02......

But now I have 2 of these 795's.......one scoped, one Tech'd.....

LLP

Sam and LLP, I hear you about the spring concerns.... but the stock trigger return spring in a 795 is so strong it borders on being offensive to good taste.

I'll be testing it out thoroughly prior to handing over to some new 'Seeder as a loaner.

I am happy that I was able to work around the mag/trigger disconnect though... it can now be dry-fired without sticking a "fake magazine" made from a wooden shim into the magazine well.  Huge safety points IMO, from an Appleseed perspective.  The new softer sear spring is always overridden by the disconnector lifter spring.

I'd also add that from a visual inspection, the sear and hammer mated up crooked.  You could actually see that the engagement surfaces were cut wobbly... particularly the sear.  With it smooth and flat, it should glide more easily over the hammer notch and with less friction at any one spot.  The "feel" is certainly 110% better.

I did stone mine a bit more than Sam suggested in his post... but it was necessary IMO due to just how poorly it was cut.  He is certainly spot-on in his advice to leave the engagement angles alone.

If it doesn't work right for some reason or other, no big deal.  Replacement hammers and sears are cheap from Numrichs.

Amen to that!!

I know exactly what you mean about needing to "fix" a truly heinous trigger.......my personal favorite is in the area around 8-10 ozs, far lighter than most folks will want to get near.....but it works well with me....
And yes, the use of trigger blocks is a great tool for setting full on engagement cuts for a particular hammer/sear group.....esp. a pusher type.....
I have "a couple" of these blocks......

The "negative", if you will, is that most folks have never really had any gun smithing experience/training, much less done any SAAMI classes, etc.....
In similar terms of the average "DIY'r" trying to modify his 2009 Corvettes shift points by himself, much of the internal items in the rifle/pistol/shotgun world do not lend themselves to easy manipulation....

In simpler terms, if you do not have reasonably good knowledge of what each piece is, how it interacts with the other parts, and what changes need to be made to "tune it" to a particular goal, you have a responsibility to yourself & those around you on the firing line to have the mods made professionally......

I am not throwing rocks at -anyone- here, we are all simply -TOO VALUABLE- to be damaged because we did not "know about something", or didn't think it through all the way.....

AZ, good on you for testing well in advance of a "stranger" needing to rely on it....that shows good judgment.

And yes, pre-blocks, I was -very- familiar with the sales desk @ Numrich.......

LLP

Hey Sam let's see you make a Marlin look like a Garand!
Love Hawkeye in NC

LLP, consider this:

QuoteIt also makes me wonder just how many shooters truly have crappy guns on the line.  This 795, after a couple of elbow grease sessions, is definitely a shooter.  Prior to that though, it was a piece of junk.  I was shooting circles around this gun with my M14, which just didn't make any sense to me at all.  Historically the big .308 tends to expose more errors in my shooting form, not hide them.

Me being part of the "gun culture" and knowing my Rifleman chops (as well as having a closet full of rifles to compare against for accuracy), I was able to point to the rifle being the culprit here and did the appropriate work.  A new shooter, though?  One who is doing the homework and otherwise is potentially shooting well, but can't get those dang 1" squares or the 400 yard stage of the AQT?  Wow, I feel sorry for him or her.  "Talking Targets" would have him believing that he's at fault somehow... when it's really a bad stock/action fit or his trigger is 12 pounds and he simply doesn't KNOW what a good trigger feels like.

In context of what you wrote here:

QuoteAs to the new folk who can't make it happen? I always see this as a bit of "new guitar player".....folks who want to learn how to play guitar don't runout and buy a "name guitar", they pick up whatever is at WallyWorld, or Target......and I can guarantee the action on -those- guitars is nowhere near a nicely set up Les Paul, or Fender, or Kramer, or......they'll make your fingers bleed, if you play 'em long enough.....but usually, after a bit of struggling with their POS guitar, they wander into a real guitar shop, & try one of those "high $$" guitars....and decide right there that they need to start saving their pennies & dimes so they can get one of "those"........

How often after having a newbie try one of your "babies" that's been massaged a bit, the people return it with that look in their eyes, and say: "I really need to get one of these...."

I know what you mean about the guitar analogy.  I studied classical guitar in college and got a music minor just for fun along with my major, and got my skill level back then to where I merited ownership of a handmade spanish guitar... I had an Esteve.  It was a fantastic instrument.

I sold that guitar after college due to circumstances outside of my control at the time.

I replaced it a couple of years later.  I took $150 and spent 3 weekends driving around town looking for the best, well constructed intro student guitar I could find in the Phoenix metroplex.  I found an Ibanez that, while inexpensive, resonated beautifully with quality tone and no fret/nut/bridge buzzing.  One of the guitars that was probably made on a Wednesday at the factory rather than Monday morning or Friday afternoon.  There's probably thousands of other Ibanez guitars of that exact same model that sound awful.  This one plays and sounds comparable to many $500-$700 performance guitars from Takamine and Yamaha, at a quarter the price.  It is a fluke, not the standard.

This marlin 795 is very similar to that cheap Ibanez.... but this one was probably a Friday afternoon rifle.  Nothing was mechanically broken or wrong in it, but it was certainly not tuned or tested for accuracy.  It cost me $150... it's not like it's a CZ 452 or an Anschutz.  It isn't one of those drool-worthy rifles like a custom M14.

Someone saying "I gotta get me one of THESE..." just on the performance of this particular rifle will be misled, unfortunately.  There will be some 795's that drive tacks straight from the factory and some that have the same problems I just cured in my particular specimen.

The Marlin 60/795 is the Walmart rifle (like your Walmart guitar you mentioned). 

Where am I going with this argument? 

Just trying to present the fact that not all 10/22's or 795's or other models of rifles are created equal.  Some are shooters, some need tweaking, and some are out and out lemons.  When a novice shooter shows up with an untweaked rifle in need of tweaking or even a lemon, he can potentially be doing everything right and still be shooting 8-10 minute groups.

I've got fewer years on this rock than you or SamD and seen a LOT fewer rifles than you guys, and it just struck me as another factor to consider as an Appleseed instructor:  A person can have what I view as an "acceptable" rifle based on the model, and it can still shoot for crap.  I'm sure you guys have had that revelation already awhile back prior to even getting involved in Appleseed, but I wanted to try and express that to other Instructors who might be closer to my age and experience level with firearms.  I'm not a gunsmith and I'm not a veteran... just a plain old 30-something fella living in the US. 

It's possible that a shooter exhibiting great form and still being frustrated by his targets down range has a terrible rifle... and worse yet... he doesn't even know it is his rifle's fault.

I think I'm going to be working this concept into my Sunday afternoon parting comments.  Not that I want people scapegoating their gear rather than examining their technique, but it is a legitimate concern IMO.

Someplace in here I think it says a rifleman should be able to pick-up any rack-grade rifle and shoot 4MOA using surplus ammo.

I think we should keep that in perspective for any change to an LTR - Marlin or Ruger. 

We can't rely on personally tuned LTR's to make riflemen.

(I'm not saying everyone should shoot 210+ with a 15# trigger on a Mosin Nagant M44 using the sights set by a near-sighted Red Army armorer, but not every rifle you pick up in life will have a 2# trigger and Zeiss optics.)

Quote from: gunville on July 09, 2009, 03:17:44 PM
Someplace in here I think it says a rifleman should be able to pick-up any rack-grade rifle and shoot 4MOA using surplus ammo.

I think we should keep that in perspective for any change to an LTR - Marlin or Ruger. 

We can't rely on personally tuned LTR's to make riflemen.

(I'm not saying everyone should shoot 210+ with a 15# trigger on a Mosin Nagant M44 using the sights set by a near-sighted Red Army armorer, but not every rifle you pick up in life will have a 2# trigger and Zeiss optics.)

That's a rack grade military rifle though.  Not a walmart special .22.  Huge difference in acceptable standards, especially since a rack-grade military rifle is still arguably serviced by an armorer to meet some sort of objective standard.  The walmart special .22?  No armorer supervising its quality.  Do you really want to make the argument that the M4/M16's coming out of Colt and FN factories, the Bushmaster and other AR's coming from all over the US, the M1A's coming from Springfield, or the M1's from the 1940's are comparable to the rimfires coming out of the Marlin and Ruger factories?

The above described 795 now has a 5 pound trigger, give or take a half pound.  I don't have a scientific measure to determine it more accurately.

I think expecting a rifle to have an approximate 5 pound pull is not asking too much.  What I've done is acted as "unit armorer" for my LTR and made it conform to reasonable accuracy expectations.

There isn't a military on earth that would consider a 10/22 or 795 as a rack grade rifle, even if you could magically make it fire an acceptable centerfire cartridge.  They are among the cheapest of entry level rifles with a host of design flaws and manufacturing variations that would be unacceptable to the soldier in the field.  It would be like Eddie Van Halen playing on stage with a First Act brand guitar from the Walmart toy department.

This rifle was not "rack-grade" in my opinion, the way it shot before in comparison to the way it shot after relieving the barrel channel.  Even after the stock work, it was still not rack grade since I could not manage to keep the sights on target while squeezing the heavy trigger.

In comparison to 10/22's... we see lots of people making modifications to those rifles to make them "Appleseed worthy."  Mag releases, bolt releases are extremely common.  Replacement triggers are ubiquitous on the line.

Does this mean that aftermarket mods or intelligently applied elbow grease are mandatory to make a rifle shoot well?

I dunno.  I'm starting to have doubts about quality of entry level firearms in today's market... The 795 and 10/22 polish up into nice rifles, sure.  But look at them in stock configuration.  Wretched sights, gritty and tough triggers more often than not, cumbersome design features (10/22: bolt release and mag release, 795: magazine trigger disconnect prohibits dryfire).  They are built as cheaply as possible to beat particular price points.  Anyone expecting a stock $150 rifle to shoot 4MOA just like a $1000 rack grade service rifle is likely to be disappointed from time to time by the mechanical limitations imposed by $150 worth of parts and labor.

I'm just about done making this rifle shoot as it "should."  I'm not going to be playing games to get it to a 1lb trigger pull or chasing 0.25" groups using Eley match ammo at 50 yards with it.  I'm getting it to approximate the reliability, feel and accuracy of a rack-grade rifle.

After all, if I can't shoot one of my LTR's to a Rifleman standard, how can I expect it to be an effective learning tool for an Appleseed student to use to his benefit?

QuoteWe can't rely on personally tuned LTR's to make riflemen.

You don't check over your LTR's to make certain they group to a Rifleman standard, and monitor them from time to time for accuracy?  Hmm.  Probably should.  Because Ruger and Marlin don't seem to.  Some kid could have mashed up your barrel crown or let some sand get down the bore in front of a bullet.  Or some grit is inside, grinding away during the trigger pull and making it 15 pounds instead of 8 like normal.  Or the rear sight is wobbly making sights not always align with bore and creating huge groups.

I've got 2 LTR's.  I've made a commitment that if I hand one over to a shooter, it's gonna shoot to a Rifleman standard as long as he does his part.  That takes work on my part to maintain the weapon... after all, if a rifle gets used at 1 appleseed a month, it's getting about 6000 rounds a year through it along with the abuse that 12 novice strangers bring to a rifle over a period of 24 days.

Even an AR or an M1 will need TLC and function check under those conditions... what makes you think your little LTR doesn't?

Ahhhh, you guys know what? I really like you guys!!! (and that is -NOT- said in a fey kinda Cali voice, either!!)

You know why? Because you have brains!! And you use them!! And -THAT- makes you the kind of Americans I choose to hang out & work with......
It simply does not get any better...... <

Gunville, your memory serves you well....we -are- to be able to teach to pick a rack grade rifle & shoot 4MOA with it.....-that- is the platform part of what we teach. Regardless of balancing, trigger pull, creep, scrape or anything else, our platform allows us to perform at that level of competence.....

(I'm not saying everyone should shoot 210+ with a 15# trigger on a Mosin Nagant M44 using the sights set by a near-sighted Red Army armorer, but not every rifle you pick up in life will have a 2# trigger and Zeiss optics.)

This line made my side hurt from laughing, it is sooo true!! You left out the carbine barrel, but still get +1 for the general idea!

And yes, I have mucho respect for the folk who can show up with an SKS  & do a 210+, it isn't the "norm"......but the 2.25# trigger & Zeiss? That's on my Flaig .300 Wthrby mag, & it is a ~1MOA shooter with me being the nut behind the butt........Not something the "average" AS'r wants to spend time on the line pounding along with, tho'......

And because of the "legal issues" we have out here in Cali (and a few other states I'm given to understand), on my loaners, the trigger pull -never- goes below 4#'s......but they are "crisp".....and the sear reset is a wonderful thing for new shooters to experience......

As you & AZ note, no two are created equally....AZ, I believe you are right, this should be incorporated in to the Sunday benediction.....I usually tell the folks they will master their rifles, when they will master themselves.....we can certainly incorporate that besides possible "operator errors", there might be a "gear issue" as well......

Now, on the analogy.....a craftsman can work with inferior tools, most would obviously choose not to......that is what makes them craftsmen, the desire to do better than journeyman work.....a newbie, having no background to compare to, will see things first from a value standpoint, while trying to keep his costs down as much as possible.....not until he learns the "mechanics" of doing whatever skill set is required by the job, is he ready to begin making comparisons based on his own unique parameters.......

A back yard mechanic may be very happy with Craftsmen tools for occasional weekend work, he will not be able to justify the "extreme costs" of Snap-On tools......the man making his living with his tools may very well start out with Craftsmen tools, then gradually graduate to the "higher priced" Snap On's.....Why? Because on a day-in, day-out basis, they preform much better, and make life much easier on the mechanic.....

It will be the same as our $150-300 LTRs'.......we have something around 40+ pages of ways to make a 10-22 "behave better" here on the forum, and they are all good points.....mag release, bolt release, swivels, buffer, and sights, not necessarily in that order...... < Stocks, cheek rests, barrels, trigger groups, custom hammers......yeah, I suppose you could, but why? for 25m? Doesn't really make sense to me......but, that's me, and my $.02 opinion.....

AZ, I am with you on improving trigger pulls, please do not get me wrong.....but, we do need to keep in mind when a shooter shows on our line with -their- rifle, they will be struggling with something we have -no- experience with, unless we try it, and there may not be the time to do that.....we work with their platform, and if possible, let them try the LTR that may be "easier to run" than what they brought.....

Anybody here ever replaced somebodies stock 10-22 with yours with Tech-Sights, and watched their scores jump by 20+ points on the next AQT??? I have....and they all come back from the target asking how they can get "these sights on their rifle"......

just a plain old 30-something fella living in the US.
I disagree...you are far more that that....you are not only an American citizen, but an Appleseed RedHat Instructor......and that puts you at an elevated understanding of what needs to be, and can be, accomplished compared to the average "citizen".......

The guitar analogy actually worked better than I first anticipated.......and Bro, you started some leakage with the story of your Esteve......
I've been down that trial as well.....
Now, to draw out the analogy a bit more.....how did you "discover" your Ibanez? Easy! You "searched" for 3 weeks thru all kinds of guitar shops, right? That meant you picked up a whole bunch of guitars, and tried them for action, tone, timbre, and "feel"...until you found that guitar...... At which point you made it yours, took it home, cleaned it, polished it, and began to enjoy the union of man & guitar, and the music they make together......

This is the same thing most shooters should do with their rifles......and pistols, and everything else in their lives......finding what works/feels best for them.....but without comparative analysis, they will not know what to base their decision on.......

A side note here.....JB & DW brought down a new target for our 1st RBC here....it's a tank, with a very small spot to indicate the "tank commander".....the idea is, you start off being matched up with someone else's rifle and ammo, and have 60 seconds to put as many rounds into the target as possible, to "hit" the commander......on a line that had nothing but say 10-22's, or 795's on it, how enlightening would it be for all the shooters to have the chance to "try" everybody else's rifle out?

A thought......

And added as a late note......your LTRs -should- be capable of doing the 210+ on a regulation AQT, with you , or any of the other Instructors driving it.....as AZ stated, anything else is simply hindering the student.....and frustration will kill desire to accomplish far more quickly than simple adversity......

Allrighty, guys, I gotta get to work....been slacking here, typing, & on the phone.
Take care, & we'll TTYS
LLP

If 30-06 were 3 cents a round we'd use Garrands for LTR's, but it's not. We look to 795's and 10-22's to make riflemen economically feasible. This opens us up to modifications of these platforms in an attempt to make them operate more like a military rifle.

The Ruger mods you mention - mag release/bolt release - are already in the Marlin - fit in here.  Likewise with the sights.

Beyond that, is simply customizing your rifle: feel free to add a fluted match barrel, a trigger group that costs more than the rifle new, german optics with night vision, and a glass bedded stock.  That's what liberty is about.

But you'll not make any more riflemen with your project than with the basic 4MOA LTR.

I think 90% plus of riflemen could shoot a stock Ruger or Marlin and have a patch by Sunday, with the only mod being the addition of a sling.

You gots learn to master what you have.

If you know what proper sight alignment and picture picture look like
Haven't forgot to breathe
Know how to squeeeeeze a trigger
and how to follow through, you can handle most anything
If you take that mental snap shot you know you can.

It applies to all rifles
as does a solid position and NPOA.
do it right and it just doesn't matter what you're holding.
Trick rifles make it easier but not better. or as my sigline on another forums says:

"Fancy schmancy tools have never been a suitable replacement for hard won skill, just a crutch for the motivationally challenged"

Sam
P.S. LLP
On drinking rough days I play an Ovation 247 Longneck
On more sedate occasions an Epiphone Blackstone

Nice to see even the expert opinions vary says the peanut gallery...

There is one thing I agree with for sure, the quality of non-military issue rifles coming off the line are getting very poor. Marlin, Ruger, Springfield, or almost any other firearm maker seems to be trying to squeeze every dime out of us as possible while leaving it up to the owners to make them good rifles. I hope the new owners of Marlin change this trend.

The beauty of the Marlin is there isn't a way to spend a lot on it easily so most owners are limited to doing only what is needed. We enjoy shooting both the Ruger and Marlin but there is always that pressure to do more to the Ruger because more is readily available. The Marlin forces concentration on skill not tacti-cool.

A lot of us really want that patch, I cant say exactly why but I know I will get it God allowing. So Ive promised myself a new rifle if ever I shoot the Rifleman score and not one day sooner. That AR-10 is going to be one fine rifle...

Well, after my outing this weekend with the tuned 795, I will admit that the lighter sear spring introduced problems.  Sometimes the hammer didn't reset.  I'll be replacing the lighter spring with the factory one.  Which is disappointing since it re-enables the magazine disconnector, but a 100% reliable rifle that you can't dryfire is better than a 95% reliable one that you can also dryfire.

But, the built-up trigger lever and trigger set screw make this rifle freakin' awesome, even with a 5 pound trigger.

My Marlin 795 came with a great trigger, I slapped on the tech-sights, clipped on a sling; and it was ready to go.
When I do everything right, I can easily get half inch groups using CCI mini-mags.
It's proven very reliable, with the exception of once the bolt got stuck back.
After I took it all apart, I realized that -They still retained the old-style bolt lock, where you push in the handle.  Go figure, it's got two.
I find the only problem is it's definately not designed to fit me....
That's ok, it's an LTR!

My 10/22 on the other hand,  came from Wal mart...  Crappy plastic trigger/assembly, and it seems to be a heavy pull.(Never weighed it)
Had to peene around the mag-release pin, to keep it from falling out every time I took it out of the stock...
I had to drive the tech-sight in the front dovetail, just to have it slide right out on me a Lodi, WI. last Oct. (And yes, it did have lock-tite on it)
I also believe the barrel was rotating or canting itself durring strings of fire.  I don't believe that 'v-block' was holding it tight.
Seems to have stopped now, probably frozen with gunk and goop...
But I worked through all that.  Afterall, it was my rifle, and I had better master it!  The kinks have all worked themselves out...And it has, despite all it's defficiencies become my prefered LTR.  Perhaps, because I can score Rifleman with it, consistantly.

One big problem for us larger guys is neither 22 is made to fit us.

Well that a problem on all rifles since they all seem to be made for someone around 5'7" or so in particular the Russian rifles.

Thinking of going with a collapsible stock next time to get that fit right so I dont have to jam myself into the rifle so to speak.

Picked up a Marlin 795 in Albuquerque yesterday at Sportsman's Warehouse.  $160 after tax and i'll send in for the $20 rebate promptly.  SamD & TaosGlock have a battery of these for loaners and that's a good enough recommendation for me.  I need to build up a battery of loaners and this was a good way to start.  I'll be putting Tech-Sights on mine.  Sam is giving me tips for polishing the gun up a bit, which I appreciate.

Thanks Samd, ToasGlock, & Bluefeather for the suggestions.

-David
Edgewood, NM

Since you're installing Tech Sights, ask SamD about his forend weight mod - makes a significant difference in the way the rifle handles.  It feels more like the balance with a wood stock.

Paul:

Sam said he would make me one of those too.  I just figured it was lead in the buttstock like in SR but he's putting lead in the forearm?  I'm sure any lead you can stick in a 795 will help.  Darn thing weighs less than 5 pounds.

Thanks,

-David

   Got mine last week, made it to the range on Monday. The range master was checking it out so I told him I was thinking about a 10/22 'till I saw this thread and did some more on-line research, and decided this was the .22 for the price (BTW Big 5 in CA will sell 'em for $149 if you hound them a bit!). The range master promptly told that if I'd got a 10/22 I would have been cussing it for as long as I owned it!
  I know that that's not entirely true, seeing as how they are such a popular rifle they must have some redeeming qualities. After running a couple hundred rounds through my 795, I am more than happy with my choice.
  Back to the range.. I was set up at the bench closest to the range masters shack, and He's watching me work on the 25m drill targets and talking to me about ammo etc... Then I think he couldn't stand it anymore, He says " you wanna try some target loads?" He runs over to his house at the next cease fire (He lives at the range, seriously!) and brings back some different loads. I run through the loads He brought me, some on paper and some at the "dishes" and now he really can't stand it, He says "I'm going to get my rifle". He came back with his 10/22, points to the rear receiver cover and says "this is the only bit of Ruger 10/22 left on this rifle".
  He has a very nice serious target rifle, I'm going off of memory here but I think he said he has an X ring receiver (?), bull barrel, holographic sight etc... nice rifle!
Point is, he has this magic 10/22 (He let me run a few through it, and it was very nice to shoot!) and he thought my little $150 rifle was the $h!*!
  I'm talking to EEL about tech sights, so I should have them by my next range trip, now if I can only find somewhere that will sell me 2000 rds I'll be ready for Fresno RBC!
  I love this little .22, I'm glad I found this thread before I bought.
  Andy
   

Can someone give me the model# of the Sling Swivels I need?  I'm new to rifles and slings and need help in bad way.  Also when you refer to USGI cotton web sling is that what the for sale sites list as the M14 sling?  My 795 has the two sling posts(?) and I'm trying to figure out everything I need to make it work for an Appleseed.  Also I have an AR-15 with the M-4 style collapsible stock.  The problem is there is no sling mount, I found the GG&G Sling Thing that gives it a side mount but the one on the front is on the bottom.  The guy at Tactical Response said they had a front mount to put it on the side for use with one of their Tac-Slings but they aren't meant for Marksmanship (Loop and Hasty) just carrying and transitioning to pistol.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Chaos,
Don't know anything about AR's and their sling attatchments, but you can get top quality USGI slings at the Appleseed store. I think 12 or 13 bucks, and Rifle Woman is fast! Just go to the Appleseed store topic on this sight and follow the links.
   

Quote from: Packaged Chaos on July 16, 2009, 12:02:38 AM
Can someone give me the model# of the Sling Swivels I need?  I'm new to rifles and slings and need help in bad way.  Also when you refer to USGI cotton web sling is that what the for sale sites list as the M14 sling?  My 795 has the two sling posts(?) and I'm trying to figure out everything I need to make it work for an Appleseed. 

I got Uncle Mike's Military sling swivels.- (1 1/4" sling loop)- http://www.cgwgun.com/Sling-Swivels/Uncle-Mikes-Miltary-Swivel-Set__UNC14023.aspx. I got mine off e-bay. They fit well on my 795.

Yes. The USGI web sling is listed as M14 slings. I got mine from CDNN along with extra marlin 10 round mags. Look for the 'hook' at the end of sling as shown in the picture. - http://www.cdnninvestments.com/m1greenwebne.html

Hope this helps.

I've had great luck with the Talon 1-1/4" swivels.  They are very similar to the Uncle Mike's, but the Talons have all steel construction, a stainless steel spring, and best of all, they are only $7 a pair at Academy Sports (if you're near one)...they have just added them to their inventory.

I know that the Talon swivels are made in the USA, and I think the Uncle Mike's are too....

search Midway USA,  some times when ordering just 1 thing you can get shipping at $3 USPS 1st Class.

http://www.midwayusa.com/Search/#1-1%2F4%22%20swivels____-_1-2-4_8-16-32

Thanks, fredfunder.

Anyway to get the buttplate off the back of a Marlin 795?  I took the screws out and looks to me like the buttplate is just facade....that it has screws for looks and the buttplate is molded in to the stock.

Maybe the butt portion of the stock is solid plastic...not hollow like most plastic stocks?

Or maybe it's hollow but the buttplate is plastic welded to the butt?

I was wanting to fill the buttstock with lead shot but I couldn't get the faux buttplate off.

Anyone know how?

-David
Edgewood, NM

The butt plate on my new 795 appears to be molded (or plastic-welded) in place.  I am in the process, however, of adding a steel rod in the fore end.  I am going to epoxy it in place to add weight and stiffness.  When I (or the person I've loaned it to...since I'm building it for a loaner) tug on the sling, I don't want the fore end flexing.

After taking a closer look, the butt plate on the 795 is removable.  Pictures to follow soon.