My wife has told me to "Get this rifle shopping done with already!" So, I need to get it done. With the current political environment, I need to move with double speed.
Which "brand new" M14-style rifle is a good value? I'm looking for something that is not going to break if I take care of it, I can get in a reasonable amount of time (< 3 months is preferable), and will make a good Rifleman's rifle (4 MOA or better). To my knowledge, this excludes the new M1As from SA, due to the quality issues. So, that leaves me with Smith Enterprises and Fulton Armory, correct? Any other options? I plan on having spare parts on hand and learning to service the rifle, but I don't want a perpetual problem. I'm willing to pay, within reason, for something that I can give to my heirs.
The Smith Enterprises site seems to be for experts only, because it doesn't really tell me what is available.
The Fulton Armory site has many choices. Their service rifle looks good, but I'd like to have a piston grip and a synthetic stock. I imagine I could purchase those aftermarket. Their Designated Marksman and Sniper Rifles are getting out of my price range. They also have their Peerless Rifle, which is pushing it in terms of price.
LRB and Springfield would be my choices.
Another option is a used Fed Ord, if the serial number is below 8000. I have a 4XXX one, didn't have 2 boxes of ammo run through before Igot it. All USGI parts (except receiver) and a Winchester barrel.
I really like my LRB but my go to rifle is an older match grade SA m1a that I bought used at a show years ago.
I would try to find an M1a with GI parts and some mileage on it (especially a private sale). I haven't been in the market for a while, so I don't know if that's still possible.
I love to dog Springers for not being as good as a custom rifle... that being said, a Springfield M1A is a 4MOA rifle and then some.
A mosin nagant is a 4 MOA rifle.
Even the springer SOCOM's are a 4 MOA rifle.
Anyone who thinks otherwise damned well better get themselves to an Appleseed for a shooting form checkup.
If you fear the springfield standard M1A, then get the National Match or Supermatch models. They cost more, but not nearly as much as LRB/Fulton/SEI.
Just get spare parts for your bolt soon. The only M14-type failures I've ever seen have been bolt small parts failures, and only on Springfield M1A's. Never anything with USGI components.
IMO, the higher end offerings from springfield, while inferior to a custom rifle, are the best dollar-to-dollar value in the M14 lineup on the market right now.
And they ain't no slouch.
I've got a Springfield Standard Loaded Stainless Synthetic and it has served me well. The barrel has over 5,000 rounds on it (like a Timex - it keeps on ticking). I'm thinking on sending it to Accuracy Speaks in Arizona for a new barrel and a tune up.
That being said - I wouldn't be afraid to buy another Springfield, but if I could afford it, I'd buy the Fulton. I don't own one of their M14s, but do own one of their ARs and it's a masterpiece.
Ask RifleWoman. I believe she owns a Fulton M14 or two.
I checked with Fulton. They are waiting on receivers, so they have a 4-6 month lead time. I just found LRB and put a call in to them and left a message.
I'm also looking on gunbroker now, which would get me something immediately. According to Boston, the SA's with 20k to 140k serial numbers are supposed to be ok. There are three right now up for sale.
SA
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=115231693
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=115339787
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=115226109
Then there is one that has an Armscorp receiver and USGI parts. Does anybody know what to make of this one?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=114992964
Quote from: AZRedhawk44 on November 06, 2008, 03:06:53 PM
Just get spare parts for your bolt soon. The only M14-type failures I've ever seen have been bolt small parts failures, and only on Springfield M1A's. Never anything with USGI components.
Ditto
Quote from: longjohn on November 06, 2008, 04:02:57 PM
Then there is one that has an Armscorp receiver and USGI parts. Does anybody know what to make of this one?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=114992964
Yup, wicked overpriced, IMNSHO. You're looking at $1700 for it. But, hey, that's me.
You should be able to buy a reasonably priced, lower end Springfield for well under that. All you need is a rack grade rifle, and I'd opt for a synthetic stock, given the chance.
Let me put it this way. Fred had a Fed Ord (over 8XXX) that had some Chinese parts. Shot like a house afire, and he got rid of it when the barrel was shot out. He bought a Springfield then. Now, I bought an early Fed Ord (4XXX) with USGI parts myself, and sometimes when it gets mentioned, I pick on him for getting rid of the Fed Ord. See, both of these rifles shoot better than we can, for the most part. My $400 M1 Garand (WW2 Winchester, VAR barrel, Danish CMP gun) shoots better than I can. And, THAT is ALL you NEED. Everything else is fluff. If you want an M14 clone, and think you also need a super-accurate rifle, buy a lower end M1A, or good used M14 clone, AND something like a Remington 700 bolt gun, like a 700 PSS (or other brand equivalent). You will STILL be money ahead, with both rifles in your possession.
My Opinion
Stick to the Standard model Springfield. It is a very solid rifle, no real need to get the "Loaded" or "Match" grades, not for Rifleman's work.
Get plenty of mags, they are the cheapest they have ever been NOW at www.44mag.com (http://www.44mag.com)
get the spare parts as well
Good luck
This is all great information.
Nickle, I think you misunderstand my intentions. I don't want a super-accurate rifle. I want a rifle that shoots well enough, and is not going to break down on me when it matters the most, or has a receiver that is a piece of crap and expands to the point of being unshootable. I don't expect to be able to buy an M14 1 year from today. I think the existing ones will be grandfathered and no more buying, selling, or transferring. I only get one shot at this in my view, unless I want to buy duplicates, which is spendy. I want to get all the spares I need, learn the rifle inside and out, and take care of it. If something breaks, I want to be able to fix it. I'm no gunsmith, but if the receiver is a pile of crap, then I don't think I can fix it.
From that perspective, what's the best choice? Believe me, the thought has crossed my mind to just buy 4 service grade Garands from the CMP for the price of ONE of the more costly M14s. The ammo is almost half the cost as well. I'm putting together a spreadsheet on this. I'll share when I'm done.
PS, the quoted lead time on LRB rifles (forged receivers) is about 8 weeks.
Well, if you don't want (or need) super accurate, a current production Springfield, with a reasonable amount of spares, may very well be the way to go. Not the best, but good enough, even with the few flaws the current ones reposrtedly may have.
What I know for sure, is that you won't need to spend near $2000 for that.
There is absolutely nothing wrong or inferior with Springfields standard MiA. The rifle shoots much better than I do, and with that having been said, I had no problem hitting 20 inch steel at 500yrds at Posterity"s farm during the IBC last month. Maybe I should get some extra parts, but have had no problems so far, not one jam or anything. The fiberglass GI stock from Fred is a nice upgrade from the synt. stock that came with it. Who ever Smith is, was a real jerk to me, and I would rather have 3 new Springfields left in the box, than a rifle with the best receiver for 5 thousand. Everything will wear out someday and when that happens, I'll buy a new one. ( When 10 million people have gone thru the Appleseed program, You WILL be able to buy what ever rifle you wish), but for now I would not wait to long. You can buy a Springfield Today!!!
Colycat
PS I do like my M1, but the 14 is much easier to shoot well, less recoil.
For accuracy, any of these would work. For reliability, I would hesitate to recommend a newer SA rifle to anyone, unless they have enough rifles that sending one back isn't an issue. Between me and Dad, only one SA rifle has made it more than 2000 rds without a trip back. On one, the op-rod snapped, and the bolt had to be replaced, another wasn't worth trying to get them to fix (after repeatedly shipping it back). Plus Longjohn watched a practically new M1A break (something in the trigger?) a few weeks ago.
I don't have any answers, though. The main reason I like the M14 more than the M1 is because I like 20 rds over 8 rds. Haven't had any problems with CMP M1s yet.
LJ,
Whatever you choose, DO NOT get a short-barreled M1A, meaning stay away from scout-squads and socom 16's.
They are OK in the right hands but have sight regulation differences and shorter sight radius making them less useful for full-distance shooting.
Don't ask me how I know......
Longshot
I know how you know... you make a good cautionary tale. :D
Per my attached spreadsheet, I think I'm sticking with the FAL I should be getting any day now from DSA, and I'm going to get myself a Garand or two and be happy with it. If I can still buy an M14 4 years from now, and I can afford it, then all the better. It's really the ammo that stings anyway. The gun is the cheap part. Even if I change my mind on the FAL, I'm sure I could dump it for more than I paid due to the 5 month lead time from DSA on new orders. I'm glad I got mine in 2 months ago. I hope the wife doesn't mind eating Ramen for a few months.
Quote from: longjohn on November 06, 2008, 11:39:55 PM
I know how you know... you make a good cautionary tale. :D
Per my attached spreadsheet, I think I'm sticking with the FAL I should be getting any day now from DSA, and I'm going to get myself a Garand or two and be happy with it. If I can still buy an M14 4 years from now, and I can afford it, then all the better. It's really the ammo that stings anyway. The gun is the cheap part. Even if I change my mind on the FAL, I'm sure I could dump it for more than I paid due to the 5 month lead time from DSA on new orders. I'm glad I got mine in 2 months ago.
Keep in mind, you can only use one rifle at a time! (Although, if you have several folks around you that know what they're about, they could use your rifles as well. Those who know what they're about probably have their own, or are buying their own, rifle.....) If the prices are what really gets you... just wait, there'll be plenty of extra equipment and ammo laying on the ground. All you'll have to do is pick it up.
Quote from: longjohn on November 06, 2008, 11:39:55 PM
I hope the wife doesn't mind eating Ramen for a few months.
It's all part of the cause!
Quote from: Longshot on November 06, 2008, 11:22:59 PM
LJ,
Whatever you choose, DO NOT get a short-barreled M1A, meaning stay away from scout-squads and socom 16's.
They are OK in the right hands but have sight regulation differences and shorter sight radius making them less useful for full-distance shooting.
The iron sights are intended for relative near distance shooting and the platform is built to have optics mounted on them.... ;)
The FAL is a fine choice. Mags are cheap, get a bunch now.
Scope mounting has been tricky for me (probably my fault, but every attempt has gone south due to some part breaking).
They are easy to field strip, easy to clean and don't believe all the negatives about weight, bad triggers, heavy recoil, etc. Had I "found" the FAL before I got my M1A, I might never have bought the M1A I've had for 30 years.
FAL over the M1A, good grief, charlie brown. I really think this post has run its course. Appleseed is NOT about what you brought, only about that you came. With what ever.
Coly
The guy asked for advice. Once again, if we cannot give each other advice without "running afoul" of someone idea of what is, or is not Appleseed related, how are we really helping each other?
If anyone here thinks FALs cannot be accurate and reliable you don't have the rifle experience you think you do.
It's his money, his choice, he has to shoot it.
However, thread locking (in my opinion) is getting to be a real knee jerk reaction here. Maybe I'm spending too much time here again. Five minutes once a month, or so, would most likely be better for my irritation button.
Don't discount the Chinese models. I've got a Polytech M14s. Once I got rid of the eyewash fake flash hider and put it in a synthetic stock, replacing the ChiCom mystery plank it had for a stock, it became a 2-3 minute rifle. I've heard all of the negatives- Blah, blah, blah. Bottom line- I'll shoot mine until it fails, then I'll use my Garands. Such a hardship.
Do give the Armscor products a serious look. Those rifles have more Camp Perry victories than just about any other rifle around. Right now they are still made using mostly GI parts. Those folks are building Fultons recievers for them and you can still find lots of GI M-14 parts at www.raparts.com Ask for Claud.
I have a small fleet of M1a rifles ranging from Springfield to Polytech and Norinco. I spent tons of money expecting good things from my SpringfieldM1as but was disappointed. I have three Polys and two Norincos, both brands outshoot my Springfields consistantly. I have had fewewr mechanical difficulties from the Polytechs with the Noricos coming in second in Mechanical difficulties, that being said, of all the rifles the mechanical difficulties from the Poly and Norinco are mostly user induced.
REMEMBER: the chicoms have been in the US for MANY years and have been around the block as it were in the US...many have had upgrades from US sources.
Sorry M1A4me,
Really do not want the get you upset, I was not calling for this post to be locked. I just thought everything has been said. My mistake.
I have been to a few shoots and have yet to have a FAL owner score very well, Can't say the same about M1A owners. I have read that AK's can shoot to 600 yrds, Good! I have one. Maybe I can sell it for a good price and feed my M1A. The most dangerous man(Woman) is the one that has only one Rifle, know it, shoot it.
Colycat
Quote from: Nickle on November 06, 2008, 01:58:56 PM
option is a used Fed Ord
There's a name I'd not seen in a while. November of '91 when I got my very nice Garand from them.
F.Y.I. I just happened to take a 4 day rifle class last year at Front Site in Nevada with a standard Springfield M-1A
In the sandy wind blowing conditions it just kept on working when all those AR-15 people were cleaning their guns every day, on the 3rd day the only thing I did was to run a bore snake through 2 times and wipe down any areas that were easy to get to and it kept on working after about 500 rounds.
So anyway, get a standard M-1A
Use grease on the rails (try to get Conklin synthetic) they seem to have the best stuff out there
Get the bolt roller greaser from Dillon Precisions Products
Get a synthetic stock from FredsM14stocks
Get a spare parts kit from Fulton Armory
It's like a Timex, It takes a licking and keeps on ticking
My opinion, based on experience and ownership, is this :
Regarding the M1A, if you can afford to buy one built by Fulton, LRB or Smith Enterprise, this would be my first pick. BUT, they ain't cheap.
The early serial number Springfield Armory M1A's are good to go, thinking 85,000 and lower(usually built with all GI parts).
The key with Springfield Armory M1A's is to buy those made with mainly with GI guts.(earlier serial #)
Personally, I do not trust the newer Springfield Armory M1A's. I own one of the new loaded models, 134,XXX. After about 800 rounds down the barrel the safety broke in two, rendering it unfirable. This is a Rifleman's worst nightmare.
After replacing this part with a GI part, I have had no problems. The rifle shoots great and the trigger is really nice. BUT, I still would not trust this rifle.
If I was shopping for a M1A, I would make sure it was built with ALL GI parts except the receiver(of course). AND make sure the barrel is CHROME LINED, whether, it is indeed an original GI barrel or a Criterion barrel, or a stainless steel barrel.
Springfield Armory presently does not make or provide chrome lined barrels to my knowledge.
So, in summary, if you can swing it, get a M1A with as many GI parts as possible AND a 22" chrome lined barrel.
I know the short barreled M1A SOCOM is very popular. It's marketing and the "cool" factor which is selling them. The SA SOCOM is not a Rifleman's rifle. Don't get pulled into this nonsense.
For early Springfield M1A's with all GI parts you can expect $1200 to $1800 for just a good shooter( not national match or super match stuff)
For Fulton, LBR and Smith you can expect $2300 to begin and wait.
There is a good website that you can find good deals on high quality M1A's, you will need to register and the administration is VERY strict on forum rules, so beware. ---------------> http://m14tfl.com/upload/
Regarding the FAL, I once was an FAL guy and owned several at one time and not anymore.
The FAL is a terrific rifle inasfar as reliabilty, caliber, ergonomics and take down.
In my mind, where it falls short is the sight system and to some extent the trigger.
With the M1A and the M1 Garand, once you know your tartget distance, you simply dial in with sight adjustment and let fly.
With the FAL, it is not nearly as simple. One needs a screw driver to adjust windage, it's pretty much a guess at that.
The elevation on the FAL is ok, but the rear sight is located on the lower receiver part of the rifle, so there's the propensity for error immediately.
All in all, if someone is serious about hitting targets out to 500 yards using iron sights with a .30 cal rifle, considering the M1A, M1 Garand or FAL, I would pick a M1A or M1 Garand without hesitation.
brett out.
All good stuff. I think Fulton Armory will install a new chrome-lined barrel on an M14 or M1 for around $450.
Another option would be to contact Champions Choice in Tenessee and buy the reciever from them, the GI parts from raparts.com and have Ted Brown build it for you. Krieger will do the barrel install and headspace and perhaps now the whole build for you. Fulton does a superb job of match trigger mods but their waiting list is horrendous. These rifles are well worth the expense. Get a second job, live without anything not directly related to raw survival, sell 2 or 3 other rifles but get one. You won't be disapointed.
ok my 2cents
i own a springer NM its a very cool rifle shoots like a dream...my only problem with it is the very expensive parts that are getting harder to find,and the stuff you do find be careful might not be usgi,and your mags are getting harder to find and are not cheap..but the sighting system is by far the best ive ever shot through..A+ on that
great triggers
i prefer a fal i can give you many reasons..heres a few.........
cheap parts complete parts kit for 300.00
mags 8-15 bucks
easy to clean
if you bend a op rod on a m1a it will cost you almost as much as a parts kit for a fal...
sighting system is okay once you get her locked in for windage
do your home work
shoot both then buy
but i can tell you this both are great rifles and can do a riflemans work quite well
Quote from: redman1 on December 23, 2008, 10:53:22 PM
but i can tell you this both are great rifles and can do a riflemans work quite well
We are truly blessed to have such a dilemma.
Quote from: wcmartin1 on December 23, 2008, 10:57:25 PM
Quote from: redman1 on December 23, 2008, 10:53:22 PM
but i can tell you this both are great rifles and can do a riflemans work quite well
We are truly blessed to have such a dilemma.
here here
I have a SA M1a built up by West Texas Armory. It is scoped with a Zeiss Conquest, which recently replaced a Bushnell Tactical Elite 3200. I have not gave it a good run yet with the Zeiss, but it did pretty darn good with the Bushnell.
Mechanically, I have never had a problem with my rifle, but then again, not much of it is the same as it was when it was new from Springfield (with factory or my handloads). I have not had any experience with the other makes of M1a's, but I would suspect that Fulton makes a good one based on a Fulton AR that I have; it has never hicupped, and has eaten quite a bit of both factory ammo as well as my handloads.
On a side note, I lubricate my M1a with Montana X grease, not regular gun oil.
A few years ago,I bought a SA scout. I bought it because it looked good,and I had the cash. I didn't know SA was not good to buy,and the scout barrel was too short to shoot well.
The scope mount was junk,so I just have iron sights on it now. I got it sighted in at 100 yards,and it seemed to shoot ok.
One day I shot a ground hog at 225 yards. Then a few days later I shot one at 450 yards + - a few yards.
Distances were measured by laser range finder.
Now that I've read this thread,I guess I will have to buy a custom made M1-A if I expect to qualify as a rifleman. Damn the luck... ::)
Quote from: Dirty Bill on December 24, 2008, 12:35:52 AM
Now that I've read this thread,I guess I will have to buy a custom made M1-A if I expect to qualify as a rifleman. Damn the luck... ::)
Nope.
A rack grade rifle and surplus ammo will do the trick.
An LTR will do it as well.
In fact, I rekon you could manage with the rifle you've got now. O0
I seem to have heard this somewhere before - It ain't about the hardware, it's the software that's important. <:)
Quote from: wcmartin1 on December 24, 2008, 03:00:43 AM
Quote from: Dirty Bill on December 24, 2008, 12:35:52 AM
Now that I've read this thread,I guess I will have to buy a custom made M1-A if I expect to qualify as a rifleman. Damn the luck... ::)
Nope.
A rack grade rifle and surplus ammo will do the trick.
An LTR will do it as well.
In fact, I recon you could manage with the rifle you've got now. O0
I seem to have heard this somewhere before - It ain't about the hardware, it's the software that's important. <:)
Its the shooter behind the trigger! I have personaly timed and scored a Shooter that was upto it and Shot A Rifleman Score with an open sighted single shot bolt action .22 rifle :o O0
Wade
If you can hit ground hogs at those ranges with your M1A you'll have no problems using it for an Appleseed. Unless those hits were luck?? ::)
The short barrel doesn't make the rifle inaccurate. The shorter sight radius might be a problem for you and a good scope/mount would solve that problem. My CAR 15 has a 10.5" barrel with a big ol' long flash suppressor (permanently attached to it so it's legal) and it shoots teensy weensy little groups at 25 meters. It also has a scope on it.
Quote from: Old Dog on December 24, 2008, 10:22:55 AM
If you can hit ground hogs at those ranges with your M1A you'll have no problems using it for an Appleseed. Unless those hits were luck?? ::)
The close shot,the wind was less than 10 knots,from 12 O' clock....not a factor..
The far shot the wind was quartering on at about 10 o clock 12 knots + -, a couple clicks left,and 17 clicks up,I believe it was.
Definitely a lot of luck involved. Bad luck for Mr. Groundhog... **)
Don't neglect to check out the AR line of .308's.
Last fall I got a dpms sass, haven't been able to shoot it, !@#)
but some folks I know are pleased with theirs.
It has back up iron sights, mangonell type, that I hope are
going to work at 25, and I'm going to put a Shepherd scope on it.
Several years ago I put an old Stevens bolt 22 cal. up against a Anschultz 22 cal. in a shoot off at 50 yds. Surprisingly the Stevens ate the Anschultz up! Goes to show it's not the rifle in front of the man, it's the man behind the rifle. To achieve the best markmanship abilities, in my opinion, is to compete against others using thier own guns. When you do this and start winning more than you lose, you'll be a marksman!
kissel, Appleseed is not about the "best marksmanship abilities".
Not taking you to task here, as you were not thinking in Appleseed context. But it pays, if you are on this site, and thereby concerned, at least somewhat, for the future of your country, to always have that Appleseed "context" to guide you.
So, AS is not about "best" in marksmanship. Get a person to the 4 MOA standard, and it's time for that person to get out of the deck chair and start getting others to attain that 4 MOA standard - to get them to an AS, and get them to bailing.
In AS, there's no need, and no point, to swaggering and braggering about your marksmanship (not saying you were, of course - I'm talking to "all", here).
Who in the heck would swagger, while this country is spinning out of control before our very eyes?
In the last five months or so, water has perceptibly risen at a rate that anyone should be able to see - and many have.
And all we have to do, in this Year of Appleseed Promotion, is get the word to them that there is a program to save this country, to turn it around - that there is HOPE!
Did I say "And all we have to do..."?
Let's make that "must do" - because we really do have to do it...
So never lose sight of what AS is about - teach people heritage and marksmanship and, once their skills approach 4 MOA, make them understand it's there task to start teaching others....
"Appleseed: Learn to shoot today, teach to shoot tomorrow."
Sorry Fred that the point was missed, it is not to brag about markmanship, it was to give a training tool to improve marksmanship for others by turning practice into a game. This technique is to help one familiarize themselves with other rifles and other pistols, for one in the battle may need to grab whatever he can to be part of the battle. I feel a true marksmen is never truely content with 4MOA, nor 3MOA ect. A true marksmen strives to improve and find improvements to pass on to others to assist them in improving thier markmanship. If not then why teach technique in the first place? I applaud your great effort and have recommended it to all interested in becoming marksmen. However, the better at marksmanship one is the better suited he is to teach it! This whole thing is not punching holes in paper at 25 meters, it is to teach one to be able to use his chosen firearm at 0 yardage to 500 yards effectively which requires at lot more training than firing at 25 meters to accomplish. One must also know the laws of gravity and the effect of the wind and know them well. For what is a max. score at the prone position on the AQT will most likely be a bunch of misses on the actual 500 yard range without this knowledge. Hope this clarifies my concern, and hope Appleseeders use this training as the start to further thier education on real marksmanship. Thanks so much for your work.
Kissell,
I don't pretend to be a rocket surgeon or brain scientist, but I don't think you're getting the full take on the Appleseed program. IT ISN'T ABOUT SHOOTING. Yes, shooting is part of it, marksmanship is part of it, and safe handling of rifles is a part of it.
Appleseed is about our Heritage, our Liberty, our Posterity, our Country. It is honoring the brave men, women and children (I consider young Jonathan Harrington at 16 to be a child) who gave up everything so we, generations in the future, could be free men. It is about waking up the slumbering American that lives inside each and everyone of us. It is about trying to save our Country 1 American at a time. It's about getting them off the couch and involved in what's happening in our Nation today.
4 MOA won't win you Grand Champion at Camp Perry. Agreed, but 4 MOA will allow you to control all you can see. The Rifleman's 1/4 mile. We teach ballistics, wind drift, and full distance shooting mostly at Boot Camps. You cannot teach Safety, NPOA, 6 steps of a shot, correct shooting positions, sling use, ballistics, wind drift, trajectory, target detection, etc. , to mostly novice shooters, in 2 days and expect any of it to sink in, grow roots and sustain a life of it's own. Talk about sensory overload !!
But we can instill an appreciation of history, sacrafice, and commitment in 2 days. To comprehend and resolve that what those brave residents of Lexington, Concord and their neighbors did was not in vain. THAT can sink in, grow and sustain life. The shooting is a by-product of the feeling of duty, honor, pride, and respect.
You and your team will need to make accurate hits on target, not "X"s in the ring. Time will not permit that. While you are concentrating on that "X", the other 19 rounds are still in your magazine. Not a good place for them in a target rich environment of zombies intent on your demise.
The CMP and other like organizations teach competition type markmanship and are quite capable at what they do. I teach CMP at my local club. It is totally different from the Rifleman's 1/4 mile.
Thing is, here at Appleseed, we want to win the "soft war". Look up a post by Garand69 where he lists 3 words that can kill ANYTHING. Apathy, Ignorance, and Lazyness. Those 3 words are what we are fighting. Bullets can't beat them. Ahhh, but the American that persists and persevers can. These are the main tools of Appleseed. Persistance and Perseverance.
I'm not "taking off" on you. Just want you to understand what this program is truly about. Hope you stay on and embrace our efforts to salvage a Nation in dire need of Riflemen.
EEL
First off, I do get the gest of Appleseed. I did get the opportunity to attend in 2006. Haven't had a return but I've recommended it to many others. Yes I understand the importance of April 19, 1775 in our history. This was the very first step takin by brave patriots to say "we shall be free". It is this very inspiration that leads young men and women to serve thier country as I did. My point was strictly from the aspect of the mechanics of actual firing of the rifle in an effort to give others another option at improving thier skills. Not to take anything away from the message of Appleseed. This message is taught in every school in history class clear back to the forth or fifth grade and like most teachings at this point in life, not knowing it's importance, it gets circle-filed in the brains of our youth. Granted to reteach this time in history and drive home the importance of it and how it applies today is a task to say the least. I also have understood the importance of this period for many-many years. Unfortunately, most things are taken for granted until they are gone, and maybe gone for good! So my comments were only to assist others at the actual mechanical aspect of firing rifles and add pleasure to it.It is nothing different than the postings on reloading I've done. To help others in reloads, share info, and seek advice. Never to belittle Appleseed! Greatest program going! I also know the struggle ahead in keeping this ship afloat, while we bail on one end, someone else in loading lead on the other end. I cannot attend every Appleseed, But, I do recommend it to all I can. Hope this clarifies my meaning of the original post.
Good job, EEL.
QuoteI teach CMP at my local club.
Now, let's work on that quote to change it to "I teach Appleseed at my local club."
Otherwise, Garand669, your state coordinator, is gonna be all over you, clown bat in motion. &)
With me standing behind him, holding a fresh bat... :)
Kissell, you still don't quite have "the Appleseed mantra" down like you need to (if I may interject some gentle correction early in your AS career) as regards Appleseed shooting skills.
People in this program time and time again have had it demonstrated to them that "what works at 25 m, works at 400 (or 500) yards".
In fact, it's demonstrated at every Appleseed where there is a Long Range Component.
If you can do 4 MOA at 25, you can do 4 MOA at 500.
And before you start up about wind, understand that "the perfect is the enemy of the good".
As EEL says, we overload them already. And you're not likely to make Master Shooters out of them in a weekend...
But you can make Riflemen. And the rest, who don't make it? You send them on their way, with the admonition not only that they can take home the AS info, and practice, and WILL make it - but that they have the obligation to persist, until they do.
Give me a group of Riflemen who've trained at 25 m, and never fired a shot past that distance (if anyone like that exists), add in a time machine, and I'll take those boys back to April 19th, 1775, and clean up every redcoat in sight.
(Actually, if I had the time machine, I might leave our guys to do what they did on 4/19, and not take that magnificent accomplishment away from them. Maybe instead I'd go to Long Island in the late spring of 1776, to stop the disaster that ensued after the British landing. Nope, on second thought, that'd be
giving victory to our side. Guess I'd keep the time machine for other uses, and allow our forebears to earn liberty the hard way, as the lesson lingered on for generations, afterward... Man, it's a tough world when you understand sometimes it's better not to interfere, even if you could. :()
But back to you, Kissel. Appleseed is about teaching people the basics of rifle marksmanship (even if the "basics" - hitting at 500 yards regularly - is pretty advanced for 99.999% of rifle owners).
Once you get to basic standard - a Rifleman - your job changes. I guess you can sneak in a little reloading, and maybe set a private goal of getting to 3 MOA - or even 2, with some rifle match-conditioning. But if you do, it should not be allowed to deflect you from your main task, in the Appleseed mission - to teach others what you know, so they can become "basic Riflemen".
"Learn today, Teach tomorrow."
It
has to be done that way. We don't waste time teaching people to shoot (if that's all we did, we
would be wasting time). We "train the trainers" so we multiply our force - else we'll never be able to shake the hand of the "100,000th Appleseeder" in 2012 - or the "1,000,000th Appleseeder" in 2016.
The only way - the only way! - that's gonna happen is if this program continues to focus on "training the trainers".
Like Paul Revere, we realize our goal by making sure that at every house we stop at, one or more additional riders go off in the night to spread the alarm...
We can't save the country with addition, we have to use multiplication. We don't want to add with our efforts, we want to multiply.
Not trying to hit a very small nail with a very big hammer, here.
But this comes up often enough that we need to keep knocking it down.
Appleseed is not about YOU. Once you reach "Rifleman", it doesn't matter how much better than the basic standard you shoot. Once again:
It does not matter. What matters is that you get out and teach others to shoot to that same 4 MOA standard - and while doing it, introduce them to the tradition and heritage of the rifleman.
Whether you shoot to 3 MOA or .5 MOA - whether you are the world's best rifle shooter or simply the second best - understand,
none of that matters. What matters is passing on the tradition, and the history, and the skill.
Because doing that, we save a country...
(Kissel, thanks for posting what you posted, allowing a "teaching moment" for many other Appleseeders... O0)
Fred, I agree with you 100%, but feel to open up this page I should further correspond in General Discussion of this site. Thanks.
Quote from: EEL on January 24, 2009, 11:50:42 PM
Kissell,
I don't pretend to be a rocket surgeon or brain scientist, but I don't think you're getting the full take on the Appleseed program. IT ISN'T ABOUT SHOOTING. Yes, shooting is part of it, marksmanship is part of it, and safe handling of rifles is a part of it.
Appleseed is about our Heritage, our Liberty, our Posterity, our Country. It is honoring the brave men, women and children (I consider young Jonathan Harrington at 16 to be a child) who gave up everything so we, generations in the future, could be free men. It is about waking up the slumbering American that lives inside each and everyone of us. It is about trying to save our Country 1 American at a time. It's about getting them off the couch and involved in what's happening in our Nation today.
4 MOA won't win you Grand Champion at Camp Perry. Agreed, but 4 MOA will allow you to control all you can see. The Rifleman's 1/4 mile. We teach ballistics, wind drift, and full distance shooting mostly at Boot Camps. You cannot teach Safety, NPOA, 6 steps of a shot, correct shooting positions, sling use, ballistics, wind drift, trajectory, target detection, etc. , to mostly novice shooters, in 2 days and expect any of it to sink in, grow roots and sustain a life of it's own. Talk about sensory overload !!
But we can instill an appreciation of history, sacrafice, and commitment in 2 days. To comprehend and resolve that what those brave residents of Lexington, Concord and their neighbors did was not in vain. THAT can sink in, grow and sustain life. The shooting is a by-product of the feeling of duty, honor, pride, and respect.
You and your team will need to make accurate hits on target, not "X"s in the ring. Time will not permit that. While you are concentrating on that "X", the other 19 rounds are still in your magazine. Not a good place for them in a target rich environment of zombies intent on your demise.
The CMP and other like organizations teach competition type markmanship and are quite capable at what they do. I teach CMP at my local club. It is totally different from the Rifleman's 1/4 mile.
Thing is, here at Appleseed, we want to win the "soft war". Look up a post by Garand69 where he lists 3 words that can kill ANYTHING. Apathy, Ignorance, and Lazyness. Those 3 words are what we are fighting. Bullets can't beat them. Ahhh, but the American that persists and persevers can. These are the main tools of Appleseed. Persistance and Perseverance.
I'm not "taking off" on you. Just want you to understand what this program is truly about. Hope you stay on and embrace our efforts to salvage a Nation in dire need of Riflemen.
EEL
Very impressive post EEL!! O0
It's comforting to know you are on our team!!!
.