Which M14/M1A to get?

[longjohn]

My wife has told me to "Get this rifle shopping done with already!"  So, I need to get it done.  With the current political environment, I need to move with double speed.

Which "brand new" M14-style rifle is a good value?  I'm looking for something that is not going to break if I take care of it, I can get in a reasonable amount of time (< 3 months is preferable), and will make a good Rifleman's rifle (4 MOA or better).  To my knowledge, this excludes the new M1As from SA, due to the quality issues.  So, that leaves me with Smith Enterprises and Fulton Armory, correct?  Any other options?  I plan on having spare parts on hand and learning to service the rifle, but I don't want a perpetual problem.  I'm willing to pay, within reason, for something that I can give to my heirs.

The Smith Enterprises site seems to be for experts only, because it doesn't really tell me what is available.

The Fulton Armory site has many choices.  Their service rifle looks good, but I'd like to have a piston grip and a synthetic stock.  I imagine I could purchase those aftermarket.  Their Designated Marksman and Sniper Rifles are getting out of my price range.  They also have their Peerless Rifle, which is pushing it in terms of price.

[Nickle]

LRB and Springfield would be my choices.

Another option is a used Fed Ord, if the serial number is below 8000. I have a 4XXX one, didn't have 2 boxes of ammo run through before  Igot it. All USGI parts (except receiver) and a Winchester barrel.

[TreadCarefully]

I really like my LRB but my go to rifle is an older match grade SA m1a that I bought used at a show years ago.

I would try to find an M1a with GI parts and some mileage on it (especially a private sale). I haven't been in the market for a while, so I don't know if that's still possible.

[AZRedhawk44]

I love to dog Springers for not being as good as a custom rifle... that being said, a Springfield M1A is a 4MOA rifle and then some.

A mosin nagant is a 4 MOA rifle.

Even the springer SOCOM's are a 4 MOA rifle.

Anyone who thinks otherwise damned well better get themselves to an Appleseed for a shooting form checkup.

If you fear the springfield standard M1A, then get the National Match or Supermatch models.  They cost more, but not nearly as much as LRB/Fulton/SEI.

Just get spare parts for your bolt soon.  The only M14-type failures I've ever seen have been bolt small parts failures, and only on Springfield M1A's.  Never anything with USGI components.

IMO, the higher end offerings from springfield, while inferior to a custom rifle, are the best dollar-to-dollar value in the M14 lineup on the market right now.

And they ain't no slouch.

[wcmartin1]

I've got a Springfield Standard Loaded Stainless Synthetic and it has served me well.  The barrel has over 5,000 rounds on it (like a Timex - it keeps on ticking).  I'm thinking on sending it to Accuracy Speaks in Arizona for a new barrel and a tune up.

That being said - I wouldn't be afraid to buy another Springfield, but if I could afford it, I'd buy the Fulton.  I don't own one of their M14s, but do own one of their ARs and it's a masterpiece.

Ask RifleWoman.  I believe she owns a Fulton M14 or two.

[longjohn]

I checked with Fulton.  They are waiting on receivers, so they have a 4-6 month lead time.  I just found LRB and put a call in to them and left a message.

I'm also looking on gunbroker now, which would get me something immediately.  According to Boston, the SA's with 20k to 140k serial numbers are supposed to be ok.  There are three right now up for sale.

SA
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=115231693
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=115339787
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=115226109

Then there is one that has an Armscorp receiver and USGI parts.  Does anybody know what to make of this one?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=114992964

[TreadCarefully]

Just get spare parts for your bolt soon.  The only M14-type failures I've ever seen have been bolt small parts failures, and only on Springfield M1A's.  Never anything with USGI components.

Ditto

[Nickle]

Then there is one that has an Armscorp receiver and USGI parts.  Does anybody know what to make of this one?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=114992964

Yup, wicked overpriced, IMNSHO. You're looking at $1700 for it. But, hey, that's me.

You should be able to buy a reasonably priced, lower end Springfield for well under that. All you need is a rack grade rifle, and I'd opt for a synthetic stock, given the chance.

Let me put it this way. Fred had a Fed Ord (over 8XXX) that had some Chinese parts. Shot like a house afire, and he got rid of it when the barrel was shot out. He bought a Springfield then. Now, I bought an early Fed Ord (4XXX) with USGI parts myself, and sometimes when it gets mentioned, I pick on him for getting rid of the Fed Ord. See, both of these rifles shoot better than we can, for the most part. My $400 M1 Garand (WW2 Winchester, VAR barrel, Danish CMP gun) shoots better than I can. And, THAT is ALL you NEED. Everything else is fluff. If you want an M14 clone, and think you also need a super-accurate rifle, buy a lower end M1A, or good used M14 clone, AND something like a Remington 700 bolt gun, like a 700 PSS (or other brand equivalent). You will STILL be money ahead, with both rifles in your possession.

[funfaler]

My Opinion

Stick to the Standard model Springfield.  It is a very solid rifle, no real need to get the "Loaded" or "Match" grades, not for Rifleman's work.

Get plenty of mags, they are the cheapest they have ever been NOW at www.44mag.com

get the spare parts as well

Good luck

[longjohn]

This is all great information.

Nickle, I think you misunderstand my intentions.  I don't want a super-accurate rifle.  I want a rifle that shoots well enough, and is not going to break down on me when it matters the most, or has a receiver that is a piece of crap and expands to the point of being unshootable.  I don't expect to be able to buy an M14 1 year from today.  I think the existing ones will be grandfathered and no more buying, selling, or transferring.  I only get one shot at this in my view, unless I want to buy duplicates, which is spendy.  I want to get all the spares I need, learn the rifle inside and out, and take care of it.  If something breaks, I want to be able to fix it.  I'm no gunsmith, but if the receiver is a pile of crap, then I don't think I can fix it.

From that perspective, what's the best choice?  Believe me, the thought has crossed my mind to just buy 4 service grade Garands from the CMP for the price of ONE of the more costly M14s.  The ammo is almost half the cost as well.  I'm putting together a spreadsheet on this.  I'll share when I'm done.

PS, the quoted lead time on LRB rifles (forged receivers) is about 8 weeks.

[Nickle]

Well, if you don't want (or need) super accurate, a current production Springfield, with a reasonable amount of spares, may very well be the way to go. Not the best, but good enough, even with the few flaws the current ones reposrtedly may have.

What I know for sure, is that you won't need to spend near $2000 for that.

[colycat]

There is absolutely nothing wrong or inferior with Springfields standard MiA.  The rifle shoots much better than I do, and with that having been said, I had no problem hitting 20 inch steel at 500yrds at Posterity"s farm during the IBC last month.  Maybe I should get some extra parts, but have had no problems so far, not one jam or anything.  The fiberglass GI stock from Fred is a nice upgrade from the synt. stock that came with it.  Who ever Smith is, was a real jerk to me, and I would rather have 3 new Springfields left in the box, than a rifle with the best receiver for 5 thousand.  Everything will wear out someday and when that happens, I'll buy a new one. ( When 10 million people have gone thru the Appleseed program,  You WILL be able to buy what ever rifle you wish), but for now I would not wait to long.   You can buy a Springfield Today!!!

Colycat

PS I do like my M1, but the 14 is much easier to shoot well, less recoil.

[smiley_dan]

For accuracy, any of these would work.  For reliability, I would hesitate to recommend a newer SA rifle to anyone, unless they have enough rifles that sending one back isn't an issue.  Between me and Dad, only one SA rifle has made it more than 2000 rds without a trip back.  On one, the op-rod snapped, and the bolt had to be replaced, another wasn't worth trying to get them to fix (after repeatedly shipping it back).  Plus Longjohn watched a practically new M1A break (something in the trigger?) a few weeks ago.

I don't have any answers, though.  The main reason I like the M14 more than the M1 is because I like 20 rds over 8 rds.  Haven't had any problems with CMP M1s yet.

[Longshot]

LJ,

Whatever you choose, DO NOT get a short-barreled M1A, meaning stay away from scout-squads and socom 16's.
They are OK in the right hands but have sight regulation differences and shorter sight radius making them less useful for full-distance shooting.
Don't ask me how I know......

Longshot

[longjohn]

I know how you know... you make a good cautionary tale. 

Per my attached spreadsheet, I think I'm sticking with the FAL I should be getting any day now from DSA, and I'm going to get myself a Garand or two and be happy with it.  If I can still buy an M14 4 years from now, and I can afford it, then all the better.  It's really the ammo that stings anyway.  The gun is the cheap part.  Even if I change my mind on the FAL, I'm sure I could dump it for more than I paid due to the 5 month lead time from DSA on new orders.  I'm glad I got mine in 2 months ago.  I hope the wife doesn't mind eating Ramen for a few months.

[slim]

I know how you know... you make a good cautionary tale. 

Per my attached spreadsheet, I think I'm sticking with the FAL I should be getting any day now from DSA, and I'm going to get myself a Garand or two and be happy with it.  If I can still buy an M14 4 years from now, and I can afford it, then all the better.  It's really the ammo that stings anyway.  The gun is the cheap part.  Even if I change my mind on the FAL, I'm sure I could dump it for more than I paid due to the 5 month lead time from DSA on new orders.  I'm glad I got mine in 2 months ago. 

Keep in mind, you can only use one rifle at a time! (Although, if you have several folks around you that know what they're about, they could use your rifles as well. Those who know what they're about probably have their own, or are buying their own, rifle.....) If the prices are what really gets you... just wait, there'll be plenty of extra equipment and ammo laying on the ground. All you'll have to do is pick it up.

I hope the wife doesn't mind eating Ramen for a few months.

It's all part of the cause!

[fepowered]

LJ,

Whatever you choose, DO NOT get a short-barreled M1A, meaning stay away from scout-squads and socom 16's.
They are OK in the right hands but have sight regulation differences and shorter sight radius making them less useful for full-distance shooting.

The iron sights are intended for relative near distance shooting and the platform is built to have optics mounted on them....   

[Old Dog]

The FAL is a fine choice.  Mags are cheap, get a bunch now.

Scope mounting has been tricky for me (probably my fault, but every attempt has gone south due to some part breaking). 

They are easy to field strip, easy to clean and don't believe all the negatives about weight, bad triggers, heavy recoil, etc.  Had I "found" the FAL before I got my M1A, I might never have bought the M1A I've had for 30 years.

[colycat]

FAL over the M1A, good grief, charlie brown.  I really think this post has run its course.  Appleseed is NOT about what you brought,  only about that you came. With what ever.

Coly

[Old Dog]

The guy asked for advice.  Once again, if we cannot give each other advice without "running afoul" of someone idea of what is, or is not Appleseed related, how are we really helping each other?

If anyone here thinks FALs cannot be accurate and reliable you don't have the rifle experience you think you do.

It's his money, his choice, he has to shoot it.

However, thread locking (in my opinion) is getting to be a real knee jerk reaction here.  Maybe I'm spending too much time here again.  Five minutes once a month, or so, would most likely be better for my irritation button.

[Spatulaman]

 Don't discount the Chinese models. I've got a Polytech M14s. Once I got rid of the eyewash fake flash hider and put it in a synthetic stock, replacing the ChiCom mystery plank it had for a stock, it became a 2-3 minute rifle. I've heard all of the negatives- Blah, blah, blah. Bottom line- I'll shoot mine until it fails, then I'll use my Garands. Such a hardship.

[biathlon]

Do give the Armscor products a serious look. Those rifles have more Camp Perry victories than just about any other rifle around. Right now they are still made using mostly GI parts. Those folks are building Fultons recievers for them and you can still find lots of GI M-14 parts at www.raparts.com Ask for Claud.

[glocker21]

I have a small fleet of M1a rifles ranging from Springfield to Polytech and Norinco. I spent tons of money expecting good things from my SpringfieldM1as but was disappointed. I have three Polys and two Norincos, both brands outshoot my Springfields consistantly. I have had fewewr mechanical difficulties from the Polytechs with the Noricos coming in second in Mechanical difficulties, that being said, of all the rifles the mechanical difficulties from the Poly and Norinco are mostly user induced.

REMEMBER: the chicoms have been in the US for MANY years and have been around the block as it were in the US...many have had upgrades from US sources.

[colycat]

Sorry M1A4me,

Really do not want the get you upset,  I was not calling for this post to be locked.  I just thought everything has been said.  My mistake.

I have been to a few shoots and have yet to have a FAL owner score very well, Can't say the same about M1A owners.  I have read that AK's can shoot to 600 yrds,  Good!  I have one.  Maybe I can sell it for a good price and feed my M1A.  The most dangerous man(Woman) is the one that has only one Rifle,  know it, shoot it.

Colycat

[capnmac]

option is a used Fed Ord

There's a name I'd not seen in a while.  November of '91 when I got my very nice Garand from them.

[katooutdoors]

F.Y.I.  I just happened to take a 4 day rifle class last year at Front Site in Nevada with a standard Springfield M-1A

In the sandy wind blowing conditions it just kept on working when all those AR-15 people were cleaning their guns every day, on the 3rd day the only thing I did was to run a bore snake through 2 times and wipe down any areas that were easy to get to and it kept on working after about 500 rounds.

So anyway, get a standard M-1A
Use grease on the rails  (try to get Conklin synthetic) they seem to have the best stuff out there
Get the bolt roller greaser from Dillon Precisions Products
Get a synthetic stock from FredsM14stocks
Get a spare parts kit from Fulton Armory

It's like a Timex, It takes a licking and keeps on ticking

[voortrekker]

My opinion, based on experience and ownership, is this :

Regarding the M1A, if you can afford to buy one built by Fulton, LRB or Smith Enterprise, this would be my first pick.  BUT, they ain't cheap.

The early serial number Springfield Armory M1A's are good to go, thinking 85,000 and lower(usually built with all GI parts).

The key with Springfield Armory M1A's is to buy those made with mainly with GI guts.(earlier serial

Personally, I do not trust the newer Springfield Armory M1A's.  I own one of the new loaded models, 134,XXX.  After about 800 rounds down the barrel the safety broke in two, rendering it unfirable.  This is a Rifleman's worst nightmare.

After replacing this part with a GI part, I have had no problems.  The rifle shoots great and the trigger is really nice.  BUT, I still would not trust this rifle.

If I was shopping for a M1A, I would make sure it was built with ALL GI parts except the receiver(of course).  AND make sure the barrel is CHROME LINED, whether, it is indeed an original GI barrel or a Criterion barrel, or a stainless steel barrel.

Springfield Armory presently does not make or provide chrome lined barrels to my knowledge.

So, in summary, if you can swing it, get a M1A with as many GI parts as possible AND a 22" chrome lined barrel.

I know the short barreled M1A SOCOM is very popular.  It's marketing and the "cool" factor which is selling them.  The SA SOCOM is not a Rifleman's rifle.  Don't get pulled into this nonsense.

For early Springfield M1A's with all GI parts you can expect $1200 to $1800 for just a good shooter( not national match or super match stuff)

For Fulton, LBR and Smith you can expect $2300 to begin and wait.

There is a good website that you can find good deals on high quality M1A's, you will need to register and the administration is VERY strict on forum rules, so beware.  --------------->  http://m14tfl.com/upload/



Regarding the FAL,  I once was an FAL guy and owned several at one time and not anymore.

The FAL is a terrific rifle inasfar as reliabilty, caliber, ergonomics and take down.

In my mind, where it falls short is the sight system and to some extent the trigger.

With the M1A and the M1 Garand, once you know your tartget distance, you simply dial in with sight adjustment and let fly.

With the FAL, it is not nearly as simple.  One needs a screw driver to adjust windage, it's pretty much a guess at that.

The elevation on the FAL is ok, but the rear sight is located on the lower receiver part of the rifle, so there's the propensity for error immediately.

All in all, if someone is serious about hitting targets out to 500 yards using iron sights with a .30 cal rifle, considering the M1A, M1 Garand or FAL, I would pick a M1A or M1 Garand without hesitation.




brett out.

[longjohn]

All good stuff.  I think Fulton Armory will install a new chrome-lined barrel on an M14 or M1 for around $450.

[biathlon]

Another option would be to contact Champions Choice in Tenessee and buy the reciever from them, the GI parts from raparts.com and have Ted Brown build it for you. Krieger will do the barrel install and headspace and perhaps now the whole build for you. Fulton does a superb job of match trigger mods but their waiting list is horrendous. These rifles are well worth the expense. Get a second job, live without anything not directly related to raw survival, sell 2 or 3 other rifles but get one. You won't be disapointed.

[redman1]

ok my 2cents

i own a springer NM its a very cool rifle shoots like a dream...my only problem with it is the very expensive parts that are getting harder to find,and the stuff you do find be careful might not be usgi,and your mags are getting harder to find and are not cheap..but the sighting system is by far the best ive ever shot through..A+ on that
great triggers

i prefer a fal i can give you many reasons..heres a few.........
cheap parts complete parts kit for 300.00
mags 8-15 bucks
easy to clean
if you bend a op rod on a m1a it will cost you almost as much as a parts kit for a fal...
sighting system is okay once you get her locked in for windage

do your home work
shoot both then buy

but i can tell you this both are great rifles and can do a riflemans work quite well