Which M14/M1A to get?

[wcmartin1]

but i can tell you this both are great rifles and can do a riflemans work quite well

We are truly blessed to have such a dilemma.

[redman1]

but i can tell you this both are great rifles and can do a riflemans work quite well

We are truly blessed to have such a dilemma.

here here

[Tackleberry]

I have a SA M1a built up by West Texas Armory. It is scoped with a Zeiss Conquest, which recently replaced a Bushnell Tactical Elite 3200. I have not gave it a good run yet with the Zeiss, but it did pretty darn good with the Bushnell.

Mechanically, I have never had a problem with my rifle, but then again, not much of it is the same as it was when it was new from Springfield (with factory or my handloads). I have not had any experience with the other makes of M1a's, but I would suspect that Fulton makes a good one based on a Fulton AR that I have; it has never hicupped, and has eaten quite a bit of both factory ammo as well as my handloads.

On a side note, I lubricate my M1a with Montana X grease, not regular gun oil.

[Dirty Bill]

A few years ago,I bought a SA scout. I bought it because it looked good,and I had the cash. I didn't know SA was not good to buy,and the scout barrel was too short to shoot well.

The scope mount was junk,so I just have iron sights on it now. I got it sighted in at 100 yards,and it seemed to shoot ok.

One day I shot a ground hog at 225 yards. Then a few days later I shot one at 450 yards + - a few yards.

Distances were measured by laser range finder.

Now that I've read this thread,I guess I will have to buy a custom made M1-A if I expect to qualify as a rifleman. Damn the luck...

[wcmartin1]

Now that I've read this thread,I guess I will have to buy a custom made M1-A if I expect to qualify as a rifleman. Damn the luck...

Nope.

A rack grade rifle and surplus ammo will do the trick.

An LTR will do it as well.

In fact, I rekon you could manage with the rifle you've got now. 

I seem to have heard this somewhere before - It ain't about the hardware, it's the software that's important.  <

[Wade]

Now that I've read this thread,I guess I will have to buy a custom made M1-A if I expect to qualify as a rifleman. Damn the luck...

Nope.

A rack grade rifle and surplus ammo will do the trick.

An LTR will do it as well.

In fact, I recon you could manage with the rifle you've got now. 

I seem to have heard this somewhere before - It ain't about the hardware, it's the software that's important.  <

Its the shooter behind the trigger! I have personaly timed and scored  a Shooter that was upto it and Shot A Rifleman Score  with an open sighted  single shot bolt action .22 rifle

Wade

[Old Dog]

If you can hit ground hogs at those ranges with your M1A you'll have no problems using it for an Appleseed.  Unless those hits were luck??

The short barrel doesn't make the rifle inaccurate.  The shorter sight radius might be a problem for you and a good scope/mount would solve that problem.  My CAR 15 has a 10.5" barrel with a big ol' long flash suppressor (permanently attached to it so it's legal) and it shoots teensy weensy little groups at 25 meters.  It also has a scope on it.

[Dirty Bill]

If you can hit ground hogs at those ranges with your M1A you'll have no problems using it for an Appleseed.  Unless those hits were luck??

The close shot,the wind was less than 10 knots,from 12 O' clock....not a factor..

The far shot the wind was quartering on at about 10 o clock 12 knots + -, a couple clicks left,and 17 clicks up,I believe it was.

Definitely a lot of luck involved. Bad luck for Mr. Groundhog...

[PJEVANS]

Don't neglect to check out the AR line of .308's. 

Last fall I got a dpms sass, haven't been able to shoot it, 
but some folks I know are pleased with theirs. 

It has back up iron sights, mangonell type, that I hope are
going to work at 25, and I'm going to put a Shepherd scope on it.

[kissell]

Several years ago I put an old Stevens bolt 22 cal. up against a Anschultz 22 cal. in a shoot off at 50 yds. Surprisingly the Stevens ate the Anschultz up!  Goes to show it's not the rifle in front of the man, it's the man behind the rifle. To achieve the best markmanship abilities, in my opinion, is to compete against others using thier own guns. When you do this and start winning more than you lose, you'll be a marksman!

[Fred]

    kissel, Appleseed is not about the "best marksmanship abilities".

    Not taking you to task here, as you were not thinking in Appleseed context. But it pays, if you are on this site, and thereby concerned, at least somewhat, for the future of your country, to always have that Appleseed "context" to guide you.

    So, AS is not about "best" in marksmanship. Get a person to the 4 MOA standard, and it's time for that person to get out of the deck chair and start getting others to attain that 4 MOA standard - to get them to an AS, and get them to bailing.

    In AS, there's no need, and no point, to swaggering and braggering about your marksmanship (not saying you were, of course - I'm talking to "all", here).

    Who in the heck would swagger, while this country is spinning out of control before our very eyes?

    In the last five months or so, water has perceptibly risen at a rate that anyone should be able to see - and many have.

    And all we have to do, in this Year of Appleseed Promotion, is get the word to them that there is a program to save this country, to turn it around - that there is HOPE!

     Did I say "And all we have to do..."?

     Let's make that "must do" - because we really do have to do it...

     So never lose sight of what AS is about - teach people heritage and marksmanship and, once their skills approach 4 MOA, make them understand it's there task to start teaching others....

     "Appleseed: Learn to shoot today, teach to shoot tomorrow."

   

[kissell]

Sorry Fred that the point was missed, it is not to brag about markmanship, it was to give a training tool to improve marksmanship for others by turning practice into a game. This technique is to help one familiarize themselves with other rifles and other pistols, for one in the battle may need to grab whatever he can to be part of the battle. I feel a true marksmen is never truely content with 4MOA, nor 3MOA ect. A true marksmen strives to improve and find improvements to pass on to others to assist them in improving thier markmanship. If not then why teach technique in the first place? I applaud your great effort and have recommended it to all interested in becoming marksmen. However, the better  at marksmanship one is the better suited he is to teach it! This whole thing is not punching holes in paper at 25 meters, it is to teach one to be able to use his chosen firearm at 0 yardage to 500 yards effectively which requires at lot more training than firing at 25 meters to accomplish. One must also know the laws of gravity and the effect of the wind and know them well. For what is a max. score at the prone position on the AQT will most likely be a bunch of misses on the actual 500 yard range without this knowledge. Hope this clarifies my concern, and hope Appleseeders use this training as the start to further thier education on real marksmanship. Thanks so much for your work.

[EEL]

Kissell,

I don't pretend to be a rocket surgeon or brain scientist, but I don't think you're getting the full take on the Appleseed program.  IT ISN'T ABOUT SHOOTING.  Yes, shooting is part of it, marksmanship is part of it, and safe handling of rifles is a part of it.

Appleseed is about our Heritage, our Liberty, our Posterity, our Country.  It is honoring the brave men, women and children (I consider young Jonathan Harrington at 16 to be a child) who gave up everything so we, generations in the future, could be free men.  It is about waking up the slumbering American that lives inside each and everyone of us.  It is about trying to save our Country 1 American at a time.  It's about getting them off the couch and involved in what's happening in our Nation today.

4 MOA won't win you Grand Champion at Camp Perry.  Agreed, but 4 MOA will allow you to control all you can see.  The Rifleman's 1/4 mile.  We teach ballistics, wind drift, and full distance shooting mostly at Boot Camps.  You cannot teach Safety, NPOA, 6 steps of a shot, correct shooting positions, sling use, ballistics, wind drift, trajectory, target detection, etc. , to mostly novice shooters, in 2 days and expect any of it to sink in, grow roots and sustain a life of it's own.  Talk about sensory overload !!

But we can instill an appreciation of history, sacrafice, and commitment in 2 days. To comprehend and resolve that what those brave residents of Lexington, Concord and their neighbors did was not in vain.  THAT can sink in, grow and sustain life.  The shooting is a by-product of the feeling of duty, honor, pride, and respect.

You and your team will need to make accurate hits on target, not "X"s in the ring.  Time will not permit that.  While you are concentrating on that "X", the other 19 rounds are still in your magazine.  Not a good place for them in a target rich environment of zombies intent on your demise.

The CMP and other like organizations teach competition type markmanship and are quite capable at what they do.  I teach CMP at my local club.  It is totally different from the Rifleman's 1/4 mile.

Thing is, here at Appleseed, we want to win the "soft war".  Look up a post by Garand69 where he lists 3 words that can kill ANYTHING.  Apathy, Ignorance, and Lazyness.  Those 3 words are what we are fighting.  Bullets can't beat them.  Ahhh, but the American that persists and persevers can.  These are the main tools of Appleseed. Persistance and Perseverance. 

I'm not "taking off" on you.  Just want you to understand what this program is truly about.  Hope you stay on and embrace our efforts to salvage a Nation in dire need of Riflemen.

EEL

[kissell]

First off, I do get the gest of Appleseed. I did get the opportunity to attend in 2006. Haven't had a return but I've recommended it to many others. Yes I understand the importance of April 19, 1775 in our history. This was the very first step takin by brave patriots to say "we shall be free". It is this very inspiration that leads young men and women to serve thier country as I did. My point was strictly from the aspect of the mechanics of actual firing of the rifle in an effort to give others another option at improving thier skills. Not to take anything away from the message of Appleseed. This message is taught in every school in history class clear back to the forth or fifth grade and like most teachings at this point in life, not knowing it's importance, it gets circle-filed in the brains of our youth. Granted to reteach this time in history and drive home the importance of it and how it applies today is a task to say the least. I also have understood the importance of this period for many-many years. Unfortunately, most things are taken for granted until they are gone, and maybe gone for good! So my comments were only to assist others at the actual mechanical aspect of firing rifles and add pleasure to it.It is nothing different than the postings on reloading I've done. To help others in reloads, share info, and seek advice. Never to belittle Appleseed! Greatest program going! I also know the struggle ahead in keeping this ship afloat, while we bail on one end, someone else in loading lead on the other end. I cannot attend every Appleseed, But, I do recommend it to all I can. Hope this clarifies my meaning of the original post.

[Fred]

      Good job, EEL.

     

I teach CMP at my local club.

     Now, let's work on that quote to change it to "I teach Appleseed at my local club."

     Otherwise, Garand669, your state coordinator, is gonna be all over you, clown bat in motion.

     With me standing behind him, holding a fresh bat...

     Kissell, you still don't quite have "the Appleseed mantra" down like you need to (if I may interject some gentle correction early in your AS career) as regards Appleseed shooting skills.

     People in this program time and time again have had it demonstrated to them that "what works at 25 m, works at 400 (or 500) yards".

     In fact, it's demonstrated at every Appleseed where there is a Long Range Component.

     If you can do 4 MOA at 25, you can do 4 MOA at 500.

     And before you start up about wind, understand that "the perfect is the enemy of the good".

     As EEL says, we overload them already. And you're not likely to make Master Shooters out of them in a weekend...

     But you can make Riflemen. And the rest, who don't make it? You send them on their way, with the admonition not only that they can take home the AS info, and practice, and WILL make it - but that they have the obligation to persist, until they do.

    Give me a group of Riflemen who've trained at 25 m, and never fired a shot past that distance (if anyone like that exists), add in a time machine, and I'll take those boys back to April 19th, 1775, and clean up every redcoat in sight.

   (Actually, if I had the time machine, I might leave our guys to do what they did on 4/19, and not take that magnificent accomplishment away from them. Maybe instead I'd go to Long Island in the late spring of 1776, to stop the disaster that ensued after the British landing. Nope, on second thought, that'd be giving victory to our side. Guess I'd keep the time machine for other uses, and allow our forebears to earn liberty the hard way, as the lesson lingered on for generations, afterward... Man, it's a tough world when you understand sometimes it's better not to interfere, even if you could. )

     But back to you, Kissel. Appleseed is about teaching people the basics of rifle marksmanship (even if the "basics" - hitting at 500 yards regularly - is pretty advanced for 99.999% of rifle owners).

     Once you get to basic standard - a Rifleman - your job changes. I guess you can sneak in a little reloading, and maybe set a private goal of getting to 3 MOA - or even 2, with some rifle match-conditioning. But if you do, it should not be allowed to deflect you from your main task, in the Appleseed mission - to teach others what you know, so they can become "basic Riflemen".

     "Learn today, Teach tomorrow."

      It has to be done that way. We don't waste time teaching people to shoot (if that's all we did, we would be wasting time). We "train the trainers" so we multiply our force - else we'll never be able to shake the hand of the "100,000th Appleseeder" in 2012 - or the "1,000,000th Appleseeder" in 2016.

      The only way - the only way! - that's gonna happen is if this program continues to focus on "training the trainers".

     Like Paul Revere, we realize our goal by making sure that at every house we stop at, one or more additional riders go off in the night to spread the alarm...

      We can't save the country with addition, we have to use multiplication. We don't want to add with our efforts, we want to multiply.

     Not trying to hit a very small nail with a very big hammer, here.

     But this comes up often enough that we need to keep knocking it down.

     Appleseed is not about YOU. Once you reach "Rifleman", it doesn't matter how much better than the basic standard you shoot. Once again: It does not matter.

     What matters is that you get out and teach others to shoot to that same 4 MOA standard - and while doing it, introduce them to the tradition and heritage of the rifleman.

     Whether you shoot to 3 MOA or .5 MOA - whether you are the world's best rifle shooter or simply the second best - understand, none of that matters.

     What matters is passing on the tradition, and the history, and the skill.

      Because doing that, we save a country...

      (Kissel, thanks for posting what you posted, allowing a "teaching moment" for many other Appleseeders... )

[kissell]

Fred, I agree with you 100%, but feel to open up this page I should further correspond in General Discussion of this site. Thanks.

[voortrekker]

Kissell,

I don't pretend to be a rocket surgeon or brain scientist, but I don't think you're getting the full take on the Appleseed program.  IT ISN'T ABOUT SHOOTING.  Yes, shooting is part of it, marksmanship is part of it, and safe handling of rifles is a part of it.

Appleseed is about our Heritage, our Liberty, our Posterity, our Country.  It is honoring the brave men, women and children (I consider young Jonathan Harrington at 16 to be a child) who gave up everything so we, generations in the future, could be free men.  It is about waking up the slumbering American that lives inside each and everyone of us.  It is about trying to save our Country 1 American at a time.  It's about getting them off the couch and involved in what's happening in our Nation today.

4 MOA won't win you Grand Champion at Camp Perry.  Agreed, but 4 MOA will allow you to control all you can see.  The Rifleman's 1/4 mile.  We teach ballistics, wind drift, and full distance shooting mostly at Boot Camps.  You cannot teach Safety, NPOA, 6 steps of a shot, correct shooting positions, sling use, ballistics, wind drift, trajectory, target detection, etc. , to mostly novice shooters, in 2 days and expect any of it to sink in, grow roots and sustain a life of it's own.  Talk about sensory overload !!

But we can instill an appreciation of history, sacrafice, and commitment in 2 days. To comprehend and resolve that what those brave residents of Lexington, Concord and their neighbors did was not in vain.  THAT can sink in, grow and sustain life.  The shooting is a by-product of the feeling of duty, honor, pride, and respect.

You and your team will need to make accurate hits on target, not "X"s in the ring.  Time will not permit that.  While you are concentrating on that "X", the other 19 rounds are still in your magazine.  Not a good place for them in a target rich environment of zombies intent on your demise.

The CMP and other like organizations teach competition type markmanship and are quite capable at what they do.  I teach CMP at my local club.  It is totally different from the Rifleman's 1/4 mile.

Thing is, here at Appleseed, we want to win the "soft war".  Look up a post by Garand69 where he lists 3 words that can kill ANYTHING.  Apathy, Ignorance, and Lazyness.  Those 3 words are what we are fighting.  Bullets can't beat them.  Ahhh, but the American that persists and persevers can.  These are the main tools of Appleseed. Persistance and Perseverance. 

I'm not "taking off" on you.  Just want you to understand what this program is truly about.  Hope you stay on and embrace our efforts to salvage a Nation in dire need of Riflemen.

EEL

Very impressive post EEL!!   


It's comforting to know you are on our team!!!





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