As the cost of military surplus and new-production ammunition rises, and while supplies of the same are (at best) unreliable, many Appleseed instructors and attendees have noted a need for a cost-effective means of practicing marksmanship, especially at 25 meters. To this end, we have conducted extensive research and testing of many currently available products.
The following is a summarization of our findings and experiences in the development of the Ruger 10/22® Liberty Training Rifle.
The Appleseed Program promotes rifle safety and marksmanship, as well as knowledge of Revolutionary War history and grass-roots participation in the political process, especially as this relates to the preservation of the Second Amendment. Thousands of satisfied Appleseed attendees have proven that the marksmanship principles that the Appleseed Program teaches at 25m translate into accurate shooting at up to 500 yards.
Unfortunately, the rising cost of ammunition has hindered the participation of some Americans in marksmanship activities. Proficient marksmanship requires regular practice, though not necessarily at full-distance. Practice at 25 meters, fortunately, does not require a full-power centerfire battle rifle; for this distance, a .22LR rimfire rifle is all that is required. Moreover, many indoor ranges do not allow the use of full-power rifles, but .22LR rifles are permitted.
There are several accurate and durable .22LR rifles on the market today, but the Ruger 10/22 has proven one of the most successful. It is both affordable and accurate, and several aftermarket accessories have been shown to make it an ideal platform for a 25m training rifle. The components listed in this thread should not require any gunsmithing, and little mechanical aptitude is required to install them. In short, this is a true 'do-it-yourself' project.
This should help you build a rifle that can quickly be put into service at an Appleseed, be lent to someone at a local AQT shoot, and be used to practice at 25m (or even use in 25 & 50 yard CMP rifle competitions) - all with cheap .22LR ammunition. Also, it will give you a valuable tool to use to train new shooters, without subjecting them to the often-intimidating recoil of a full-power main battle rifle.
Which 10/22 should I use to get started? -- There are a lot of options: rifles, carbines, heavy-barrelled target rifles, even receivers that allow one to build a complete rifle with custom components. One of the most-popular options for many adult shooters is a 22" barreled rifle from WalMart, available for just over $200. Small-framed adults and children may prefer the slightly smaller 10/22 Carbine. Any 10/22 is a good starting point for your Liberty Trainer.
Okay, I've got my rifle. Now what? - The Ruger factory sights are not suited to fine adjustments. Fortunately, Tech-Sights (http://www.tech-sights.com/) produces several adjustable aperture sights for the 10/22. These sights allow simple adjustment for windage and elevation (windage adjustment requires the use of an AR-15 sight adjustment tool - also available from Tech-Sights). [For those of you who would like to be able to quickly and easily adjust windage on the Tech-Sight, DPMS offers the Rapidex knob, which replaces the standard, must-use-a-tool A1 windage drum (Part# UR-3981, $9). ]
On the 22 inch barrel rifle, each click of windage or elevation is .8 MOA. For most standard carbine barrels one click = 1 MOA (at least close enough for practical applications).
So why do I want Tech-Sights instead of some other sights? - You're free to add whatever type of aftermarket sights you like, BUT the sight picture the Tech-Sights give you is very similar to the sight picture of the Springield M1A and the AR-15 rifles. Since these types of rifles are the ones many shooters use when shooting at full-distance, it just makes sense to use 10/22 sights that replicate the sights of their long-distance rifles. Plus, they are easier to adjust than many other types of sights are.
Williams are an alternative aperture-type sight, but do not give a sight picture as similar to your main rifle's as the Tech-Sights do.
How do you take the original front sight off of the barrel? - One of our satisfied shooters says this much better than I can: "I laid the barrel on a piece of 2X4, put the punch on the left side of the sight down on the dovetail part of the front sight blade (not the base) and smacked it with a hammer two or three times. On my 10/22 the dovetail in the front sight base was a lot larger than the new Tech front sight. I had to use a center punch to raise up little dimples in the front sight base dovetail to keep the Tech sight from falling out every time I turned the barrel over... remember to use Locktite on the screws as they will come loose."
The front sight is actually made to go in and be removed from one side. When installing sights, install from right to left. When uninstalling(removing) sights, remove from left to right.
What other parts should I add to my Liberty Trainer? -
1) A sling is a tremendous aid to accurate shooting, often improving group size by 50% or more. If your 10/22 has sling swivels already, you're ahead of the game. If not, you need to add a pair.
Most Ruger factory sling swivels will not accommodate aftermarket sling swivels (the holes are a little too narrow). If you want to add the same sling that you have on your long-distance rifle, you'll need to add a pair of 1¼ " sling swivels (like those available from Uncle Mike's) so that you can mount a US GI 1¼" web sling.
You may have to use a drill or Dremel tool to widen the sling swivel holes very slightly. This should be the only time you'll use a power tool during this project.
2) As it comes from the factory, releasing the 10/22 bolt from the locked-back position is a 2-handed operation, and is especially inconvenient when you're firing from the prone position. The good news is, an aftermarket automatic bolt release only casts about $11 and is easy to install.
The CST Auto Bolt Stop (http://www.cstmtech.com) requires the use of specially modified magazines (using non-modified mags in a CST-equipped rifle may potentially damage the mechanism). Since the goal of this trainer is to get you out to the range (and not into the machine shop), you'll probably be happier with one of the devices that doesn't require you to modify your magazines.
3) The 10/22 magazine release is also difficult to manipulate. Without a doubt, an extended magazine release (the most popular cost about $5-$10) makes magazine changes faster. If your primary MBR is an M1A, the Bell and Carlson release is very similar in length to that of your MBR.
4) Many shooters report improved performance after installing target triggers in their 10/22 Trainers, and while this is not absolutely necessary, it does provide for improved accuracy due to lightening the trigger pull.
There are quite a few magazines available for the 10/22. Which magazines are the best? -- Butler Creek produces some well-regarded 10 round single-stack magazines which extend about 2 inches below the rifle, allowing a convenient grip for more-rapid magazine changes. Their Steel Lips magazines have proven to be nearly as durable as Ruger's factory magazines. If you're an M1A shooter, the Butler Creek 25-round magazines can be loaded with 20 rounds to simulate the M1A's 20 round mags.
A device that allows you to attach 2 or 4 factory 10/22 magazines by their bases is a available from http://www.elmfg.com/store/ruger1022.html#Anchor-45980.
Is there any special modifications that are recommended for my 'WalMart 10/22'? -- The only real difference between the standard receiver and the WalMart 22" version is that the WalMart receiver is painted both inside and out. This leads to rough operation and early fouling as the oil, powder, and rubbed off paint mix to form glop, (the technical term). If you strip the paint from the inside, just the top part, where the bolt and bolt handle rub, and polish the area with very fine sandpaper, you'll find that the bolt is very much slicker to operate.
The standard black receiver should be fine, as they don't paint the inside of those.
Any other tips on constructing my 10/22 Liberty Trainer? -
1) "I've done a couple of these and in both cases I went back to the OEM Ruger trigger return spring. I found that the lighter Volquartsen spring will occasionally just not quite reset the sear. use the Volquartsen hammer spring, but stick with the factory Ruger trigger return spring. That's where mine is, with a decent 3-1/2 lb. trigger and 100% trigger reset reliability thus far."
2) "You might want to consider fully bedding the barrel instead of free floating it. The 10/22 has a somewhat weak connection point between the barrel and the receiver. Free floating reportedly can lead to some POA/ POI and warping issues. On the other had, those who have firmly bedded it report exceptional accuracy gains. I know this sounds anti-intuitive, but this gun seems to prefer bedding vs. floating."
I really don't know how to disassemble my rifle to install these parts - No problem. There are some valuable resources available at http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/triggerruger1022.htm . As a bonus,
this link (http://www.heypete.com/pete/shooting/rugermag.html) shows you how to disassemble a factory magazine for cleaning.
I'd like an adjustable stock, so shooters of all sizes can use my rifle - Several shooters have recommended 2 adjustable stocks: the Christie Super Stock (http://www.1022central.com/) and the T6 Stock for Ruger 10/22 (http://www.tapco.com/catalog.aspx?id=293).
Now get out to the range! And take some new shooters with you.
Disclaimer -- RWVA, its members, the Appleseed Program, and the author have no financial interest in any of the companies listed in this post. Any product endorsement is purely the result of our own satisfaction as consumers.
Many thanks to the RWVA members who contributed to this information (including Atlas Shrug, fordtruck, Hollywood, Junior Birdman, ken grant, lex, raf, et al).
Good job!
In case you haven't seen this yet:
On a HIGH note, I'm going to pick up 3 rifles tomorrow, generously donated by Frugal Squirrel's, AKA John's Gun Shop. John is a local in my area, and we know each other. He is 100% for the Appleseed program, and a decent dealer.
Also Larry at Tech Sights has generously donated 3 sets of sights, and I have them already.
So, the Northeast is on our way to having 3 10/22 trainers.
And, DO NOT BUY THE RAPIDEX KNOB yet. I can get them for you at HALF the cost mentioned by Grin. Watch for threads on the subject of Instructor purchases at FFL cost. That applies as well to some of you that are "movers and shakers", though not Instructors yet (Texans, that means YOU).
The Solution to the Ammo Shortage at Appleseeds orig. posted by fred on: May 5, 2007, 06:02:09 PM
There's always problems.
And seems a current problem is the sudden high cost of good surplus ammo.
What a few months back was 15 cents is now above 50 cents a round.
That's a more than 300% increase.
Ouch!
If you come to an Appleseed, and you go thru 300 rds in two days - or 800 rounds in six days of Boot Camp - your ammo costs have shot up from $45 to over $150 at the weekend Appleseed - and from $120 to over $400 at a Boot Camp.
That's gotta hurt.
But there's an easy solution.
It's called .22 rimfire.
For most of us older guys, say ".22" and you only mean one thing - the lowly .22 rimfire cartridge, billions of which are fired every year in this country.
I say 'lowly' because, being boys at heart, we all gravitate toward speed and power, so the .223 and other ".22s" of recent decades tend to grab the glory, at least among "the .22s".
Yet if any of us can reach back far enough in our memories, we're likely to find the .22 lurking way back in the past as the cartridge on which we cut our teeth as marksmen.
If you soak in those memories a bit, it all starts to come back.
The importance with which you approached the clerk in the country store and asked for "a box of .22s."
And not just "a box of .22s" - no sir - it was a box of "longs" or "long rifles" or - if you were "poor" that day, a box of "shorts". Yep, even back then power was an aphrodisiac, and, if you had the 72 cents, you went for the big ones - the Long Rifles (and if you were really flush, you bought the "Long Rifle Hollow Points" and paid the 80 cents - this country is so rich today that nearly all .22s now sold are "LR" so the glory attached to those two words has probably faded considerably with the younger set.)
If you were short in the coin department, if the most loose change you had was a couple of quarters (made of silver, too!) you were stuck with "shorts".
Bottom line, when you opened the box, and started dropping them down the mag tube, don't know that, excitement-wise, it made much difference.
It's no secret the power and impact that cartridge has on marksmanship.
In that field, the .22 rimfire packs muscle that dwarfs 7.62 X 39, for example. Real Marksmanship Muscle.
Some of the most accomplished marksmen are the smallbore shooters.
It's an old truth, often told: smallbore shooters make great highpower rifle shooters - but the reverse is not automatically true.
A center-fire marksman has to work on his skills when he starts to shoot smallbore, because you have to be sharper than with centerfire.
Which means .22 rimfire is a heck of a maker of rifle-shooting skills.
And no slouch in the Liberty department, either.
Back in 1940, one .22 champion shooter in England explored the possibility of using .22 rimfires on the invading Hun.
He made up dummy targets - wood 'dressed' in a wool uniform, leather cartridge belt, etc - just like an invading Nazi would wear - and found out that, at 300 yards, the 'lowly' .22 would penetrate 'uniform' and 'gear' to lodge an inch or more into the wood.
He concluded the basic .22 cartridge would make nasty wounds.
He concluded, based on his research, that .22 rifles were a viable option in facing the Hun.
Before you laugh, imagine being on the receiving end.
Without warning, sizeable lead pellets penetrate an inch or more into your body.
You can't hear them coming. There's no muzzle report - certainly, not amid vehicular or battlefield noise - to give away the location of the shooter.
They may not kill you, but you will be something the military says is even more valuable: a casualty. Requiring 2-4 men to drag you to a first-aid station, then convalescence, etc.
There's an article in one of the gun magazines way back in the days when there was a flap over civil defense and bomb shelters - say, sometime in the 1950s or early 60s.
It was a story about a man who appeared at his local gun shop once a month, and bought a .22 single-shot and a brick of .22s. (Back then, a twenty would get you both!)
When finally asked why he was buying all those rifles, he responded that, when the time came, the rifles were for his neighbors, and he expected them to use 'em - to get a battle rifle!
Shades of the generations of riflemen who have guarded this country's liberty and heritage for so long!
Now we are in a time of shortages of cheap surplus ammo.
Those of you who had the opportunity to 'buy it cheap and stack it deep' acted like the grasshoppers that most Americans are and instead of planning for the winter, you danced and sang and partied...
But even those with a few cases stacked away are reluctant to freely spend that now 50-cent a round ammo.
But .22 is still plentiful and cheap.
So herewith, we draft that cartridge back into the Cause, once more.
Yes sir, march onto the 'battlefield of liberty" - the 25-meter marksmanship training range - with the goal of becoming riflemen, of becoming one with the tradition.
It's actually already happening.
At Appleseeds, we already see nearly half the guys showing up with .22 rimfire rifles.
In fact, at the recent New York Appleseed, BOTH Riflemen who qualified were firing .22s (one shot a 237!).
Guess you could say that's the beauty of Appleseed. That at 25m you can shift from centerfire to rimfire and the only difference you'll notice, marksmanship-wise, is that your ammo dollar still buys a dollar's worth of ammo.
There's really not much difference, otherwise.
Your shoulder is no sorer.
You still have to 'ride the bull' of the Six Steps of Firing a Shot.
NPOA is still mandatory.
Position checkpoints? Absolutely the same, and absolutely as important.
Plus, if you can master the lowly .22, you can master the big center fire.
No problemo...
Now, to stock up of some of that .22, before IT gets scarce!
At less than 20 bucks per thousand, it's a deal - and a steal!
And you never know when you'll have to go 'hunting the Hun' - huh?
Maybe the title for a future column: "Stalking the Hun with pipe and .22..."
Or, "what will happen if we let this country go down the same road as England", right?
Meantime, .22 offers marksmanship training opportunities in your back yard and basement.
With CB caps, you can be near as quiet as an air rifle.
Geez, I starting to not even miss centerfire!
So yes, the lowly .22 can be a lifesaver - if it allows you to acquire the marksmanship skills you need.
And, as our English guy discovered (maybe to his surprise, and to the snorts of you machos out there), it may even have utility as a defender of Liberty, if and when it ever comes to that.
Dis this cartridge at your peril.
And buy some before everyone else finds out about it, and shortages begin to pop up...
Got some .22 already?
Then come to an Appleseed!
Bring your centerfire for Sunday, when we often switch to longer ranges, so you can see for yourself that what works at 25, works for 200 - or 300 - or 400.
And by using .22 for 90+% of your training on the AQT, your costs to attend an Appleseed actually go down, not up.
Sweet deal.
And the same goes for the Boot Camp.
By firing 2/3s of your shots with .22 rimfire - easily done - you ammo costs stay the same as when surplus ammo was cheap, but you get to shoot over 200 rounds of centerfire to polish off your training.
Sweet deal!
So, in the spirit of Appleseed - adapt, improvise, overcome - and persevere - turn the current ammo shortage in your favor - and save money even more than before the shortage cropped up!
SWEET DEAL!
"Appleseed. It's a beautiful thing."
Ken grant --
QuoteA .22 is really harder to shoot than a center fire because of barrel time. The longer barrel time can multiply any movement after the shot is fired.
This is where follow through shows up and if you relax as soon as you pull the trigger, the shot will be off the POA.
Spartacus2002 --
QuoteI strongly recommend it. The fundamentals of marksmanship are the exact same with such a 10/22 as with any rifle.
M1A4ME --
QuoteOne of the guys at the Feb. RBC shot a .22 all week. He was able to get bullets on paper out to 300 yds. and they were knocking down pop ups at 200 yds. with it (10/22 with a scope). A .22 is a great way to learn and to stay tuned up.
KentuckyRifle --
QuoteThis is a great post. I admit I considered bringing a .22 to the Carrollton Appleseed and then decided against it because I was afraid it wouldnt be perceived a "manly enough." Also reminded me that I need to stock up on more .22 and a good .22 bolt action for shooting those quiet low power cartridges
Nickle --
QuoteYou will save so much money with a .22, that you'll be able to shoot more, and maintain your skill level. Raf said his 10/22 has already paid for itself in saved cost.
At the current price for 1000 rounds of decent 7.62 NATO ammo, you could afford to buy a .22, tweak it a little, add a decent sling and swivels, and buy a mos=dest stash of ammo for it.
And for those that think a .22 has limited use in the field, think again. It's excellent for taking game for dinner.
Damon --
QuoteI've gotten into the .22 spirit myself. I spent the winter combing the local gun shows for beat-up older 10/22's. a few sets of Tech-Sights and GI slings later, and I had these little gems ready. They all have skateboard tape on the butts, quick-release sling swivels and are numbered for easy sight-in reference. I'm still putting together a full set of mags and sight adjustment tool for each.
I loaned six of them out at the Carrollton, KY Appleseed. The only catch, they had to supply their own ammo.
BigDaddy -- "Lowly" .22 rimfire Sparks Breakthrough in Homeland Security and National Defense
QuoteDateline: USA
Recognizing the desperate need of American citizens to reclaim the rifleman heritage of their forefathers, grass roots organizations have rediscovered the .22 rimfire as a means to cost-effectively train rifleman.
Spearheaded by volunteer members of the Revolutionary War Veterans Association (RWVA), RWVA instructors have begun to modify Ruger 10/22 rifles to be used as loaners to train students in the fundamentals of rifle marksmanship.
An RWVA instructor states: "With the recent increase in the cost of centerfire ammunition, the use of Tech-Sights to create .22LR caliber, M1A-like "training rifles" has made marksmanship practice affordable again."
The .22 rimfire is a great training round to be sure, but what about it's actual use in combat. Founding RWVA instructor Fred comments that,
"... .22 rimfire is a heck of a maker of rifle-shooting skills. And no slouch in the Liberty department, either. Back in 1940, one .22 champion shooter in England explored the possibility of using .22 rimfires on the invading Hun. He made up dummy targets - wood 'dressed' in a wool uniform, leather cartridge belt, etc - just like an invading Nazi would wear - and found out that, at 300 yards, the 'lowly' .22 would penetrate 'uniform' and 'gear' to lodge an inch or more into the wood.".
While such terminal performance is dwarfed in comparison to other military calibers, the utility of the round on the modern 5GW battlefield cannot be overemphasized.
Such utility is not lost on our current enemy who have used the round to great effect. Reports from the sand box indicate, head, face and neck shots with .22's. Usually one shot under 100yds. from some jihadist snipers (maybe Chechen) The .22 report signature blends in with urban soundscape, and is very difficult to trace acoustically.
The news of the renewed interest in the .22 rimfire for training rifleman
was disseminated nationwide within hours today. Using the internet, volunteer members of the RWVA, shared specs. and supplier sources for the 10/22 modifications. Such cooperative effort is an element of the GWOT.
Since this should get sticky'd, I'll post a link:
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=84.0 (http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=84.0)
This is to the Notheast Region RWVA Trainer rifles. Any modifications will be listed there. I've found some short cuts that can be easily done, like HOW to modify the bolt release and save that $11. Also, how to do a trigger yourself. Yes, not for the novice gunsmith, but, can be done by a reasonable person.
Multiply the savings by 4, and you see where it pays off to do some work.
Here's some links to doing the trigger. If it works, it will get posted in the above thread.
http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/triggerruger1022.htm (http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/triggerruger1022.htm)
http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/triggerruger1022(two).htm (http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/triggerruger1022(two).htm)
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122386&highlight=cletus+hungwell (http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122386&highlight=cletus+hungwell)
I just got done fixing up my 10/22 Liberty training rifle (that does sound good ;D) and now looking towards doing up either a loaner or one for a give away to a junior shooter. How can i get one donated(i have a good source) do i need an offical letter head or what?
I really like this idea and i am seeing a tremendous amount of work being done all for the program ;D ;D
Even in the Marine Corps in the 50s, the .22 was used for training
both for rifle, and pistol. At this time, there was a lot of ammo at
reasonable prices. Before this time, a lots of 22 ammo expended,
a few boxes of shotgun, with a box of centerfire lasting a season or
two. Probably all those expended 22s most likely was reason for one
shot kills on big game. It surely didn't hurt to have the basics when
entering the service. I've noticed the young shooters at the Appleseeds
become pretty proficient by the second day. I don't know if maybe
it can be the lack of noise and recoil. I know a family of four that
attended, it surely was easier on Dad's pocket book. :) Good job Nickle!
I don't suppose that there is a program for youth shooters through the
CMP. I seem to recall the DCM gave rifles and ammo to sponsered clubs
that had youth shooters. :)
I've got an Enfield trainer that dates back, and know 22's have been a part of most military training for a very long time
I'll admit when I was having some flintch/buck/jerk I broke out my old enfield trainer and had it under control in less than 10 rounds , not to mention having a bunch o fun too!!
farmritch
Details on how to do it should be in the link I posted above, that is in this forum.
If you want to know HOW to get donations, feel free to PM me. I'll be glad to share how I did it.
I will say right now, that Ruger will NOT donate rifles. They WILL sell them to us at just under wholesale, probably a little more than they charge distributors.
If you want to get a rifle (or better rifles) donated, contact your local shops. They are far more likely to donate to a good cause than a big company.
I posted this: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=11&t=222026 (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=11&t=222026) on the
rimfire forum of Arfcom. In the eight days elapsed, it's had over 300 views, so maybe this little seed will have a few sprouts. Gave Appleseed a bit of a plug, natch.
Since I will probably be doing a lot of rimfire and shotgun work in my shop when I eventually set it up(I'll also work on centerfire rifles, but it's not as big as the others on the IBX of NC) I believe I will do a 10/22 for my 4th semester project in about 4-5 months. It will probably have the entire LTR setup, but with a few added bonuses such as:
-Weighted Stock- I want to get the same feel and balance of an MBR, not sure which yet. But I excel with crafting stocks, so it shouldn't be too hard.
-Military Style stock- while a handguard might be out of the question(but not impossible), I should be able to duplicate to "feel" of a military stock, perhaps full length with a nice linseed oil finish.
Perhaps a little cosmetic work such as a faux gas tube like on the Garand or M14(could add the right amount of weight in the front) and if they make them, I'd like to get a steel receiver(not stainless) so I can parkerize it.
Of course, I could be biting off more than I can chew, but it sounds like a nice challenge to me!
If anyone has any comments or suggestions to add, they would be appreciated! You can PM me or post here what type of MBR you would like to see done and I'll see which is the most favored.
Well now, here's the question ... has anybody contacted Ruger about doing a factory LTR? Seems a good time.
Great thought, but I wonder how big business will
receive it ???
Yup, anelon, and I did it personally, and directly to the Rifle Sales Manager herself, over the phone.
They're not interested, and will only get interested if a Distributor asks for them, and then the numbers would have to be high enough to warrant it.
Now the good news.
Want one in kit form?
All you have to do is the parts replacement yourself, or get a local gunsmith to do it.
You provide the 10/22, and get the parts from deals right here at RWVA. The package is being worked out as we speak, believe it or not.
See, I happen to "be in the business", my father is an FFL and Ammo Manufacturer, and yes, I'm looking into a package. Just going to take a little while to put it all together.
I suggest right here and now that anybody interested look into getting your 10/22 right now, and get in on the Group Buy that Grin Reaper is putting on.
When I get my end done, I will come up with a package. Watch the Northeast Trainer thread, as that is me doing those, and what I'm doing is there. I'll try to update this thread when I get done.
Found this site: http://www.guerrillagunsmith.com/1022.htm (http://www.guerrillagunsmith.com/1022.htm), which has very nice, detailed photos and text concerning assy/dis-assy of 10-22. VERY useful if printed out and available during the first couple of dis-assemblies.
Wow... wish I'd found that site this weekend when I detail stripped my 10/22 to give it the cleaning of it's life to try and cure it's almost constant misfires. That would have helped reassembling the trigger group! (I did find another site, but this one is excellent.)
Thanks for posting it, raf! You can be sure that I'm going to be bookmarking it!
I don't detail strip much of anything anymore. I take the metal out of the stock (remove the plastic parts as well) and "blow" the crud out with a can of carb. cleaner (brake cleaner seems to work well also). Once the crud stops flowing out I set the assembly aside to dry while cleaning the barrel. When dry (the carb. cleaner not only removes the dirt/powder residue/crud but also every last drop of lubricant) I spray the assembly with Rem-Oil for rust preventive purposes and lubrication, wipe it down with an oily rag to get the excess oil off it and reassemble the rifle. Seems to work fine for me.
I've been using GunScrubber but I do not like what it does to the finish of the gun. >:( Besides, it's pretty tough to get at the trigger assembly and the firing pin on the 10/22 without ripping the gun apart.
DO NOT use Brake Cleaner on a Wally Word Special 10//22.
It will mess up the finish on your receiver both inside and out.
Inside may be O.K. but not the outside.
Don't ask me how I know ::)
Quote from: M1A4ME on June 19, 2007, 12:20:06 PM
I don't detail strip much of anything anymore. I take the metal out of the stock (remove the plastic parts as well) and "blow" the crud out with a can of carb. cleaner (brake cleaner seems to work well also). Once the crud stops flowing out I set the assembly aside to dry while cleaning the barrel. When dry (the carb. cleaner not only removes the dirt/powder residue/crud but also every last drop of lubricant) I spray the assembly with Rem-Oil for rust preventive purposes and lubrication, wipe it down with an oily rag to get the excess oil off it and reassemble the rifle. Seems to work fine for me.
I sort of agree. I detail strip the new or at least new-to-me 10-22 upon receipt, remove all dirt and lube, and run it that way for about a brick. Then, I detail strip again, and file/hone/stone/sand any rough spots on either the reciprocating parts or the stationary components. Clean again, this time (and subsequently, of course) lubing, and re-assemble. Once this detail stripping is done twice, and things smoothed up, going to the complete strip-down level should be a rare thing. On my stainless 10-22, I just flood the bore and chamber with carb cleaner, wait for it to mostly drip down and out of the lowered muzzle, and then run a boreSnake through it a couple of times. I spray a little carb cleaner on a Q-tip, and clean the face of the bolt. Dab a little CLP here and there and you're good to go. BTW, a source of compressed air is a nice thing to have, even if it is a steel bottle that is filled up at your nearby gas station. The canned stuff is way too expensive to warrant use on firearms, but is very clean and best for computer use..
Has anyone considered offering a service to build up a LTR for those less knowledgable? Me for instance? I am completely new to guns in general, in fact I only just bought my first ever gun (a shotgun), and have no experience do anything with them.
I have been reading about RWVA & Appleseeds for some time now, and am quite keen on it. I really want to get a rifle and start learning to be a rifleman, and this LTR concept seems like it would be the way to start. Unfortunately, I would be worried to start modifying guns on my own and I don't know any local gunsmiths to know who to trust. So, is there anyone who would offer the service of assembling "spec" LTR for those of us complete newbs without the ability/knowledge/confidence?
It has been considered by competent gun repair folks.
It is pretty much impractical to do, as the shipping is a pain. The transfer legalities and fees are another issue. Some FFL's charge for doing a transfer, and some of them aren't too cheap.
But, your local gunsmith could probably help you out, and won't cost you too awful much.
Dumb question, but pertinent. Which state are you in?
Yeah, I hadn't thought about the transfer issues. Could it be done where the buyer actually purchases the firearm and then sends it for the work, perhaps even if the rifle goes directly to the modifier? Would FFL's be required for that instance?
I'm in Michigan, to be specific Metro-Detroit area, but I travel all over southern Michigan & Toledo Ohio area, so could make arrangements anywhere in that area.
Quote from: BBA on July 05, 2007, 05:50:17 PM
Yeah, I hadn't thought about the transfer issues. Could it be done where the buyer actually purchases the firearm and then sends it for the work, perhaps even if the rifle goes directly to the modifier? Would FFL's be required for that instance?
I'm in Michigan, to be specific Metro-Detroit area, but I travel all over southern Michigan & Toledo Ohio area, so could make arrangements anywhere in that area.
Well, are you knowledgeable enough to remove the trigger group? All you have to do is remove the barreled receiver from the stock, then take 2 pins out to drop the trigger group. You could send out just the trigger. Tech Sights are easy to install, and sling swivel studs aren't too hard, either. The rest of the modifications would all be in the trigger assembly.
Quote from: Nickle on July 05, 2007, 05:58:22 PM
Well, are you knowledgeable enough to remove the trigger group? All you have to do is remove the barreled receiver
from the stock, then take 2 pins out to drop the trigger group. You could send out just the trigger. Tech Sights are easy to install, and sling swivel studs aren't too hard, either. The rest of the modifications would all be in the trigger assembly.
While "knowledgable" isn't the word, based on reviewing the instructions linked in the OP I believe I could get to that point.
So the bolt stop modification and magazine release modification are in the trigger assembly? What about the receiver paint stripping & barrel bedding?
I would suggest that you get a Wally World Special,put on a sling,do the bolt stop and mag release(either bought or homemade) and forget about paint stripping or bedding for now.
Learn to shoot the rifle and you may find that you don't have to do anything more to it. This was the case on mine and it both works great and shoots great.
Oops,forgot to mention I did install Tech Sights.
+1 on Ken's post. My used 10/22 has the tech sights, a 1" plastic stock extender (I'm 6' 3" tall) on the butt stock, sling swivels to allow me to use a GI web sling and all the rest of it is Ruger factory stock. I haven't really shot it much but with Rem. and Fed. .22 ammo it shoots 5/8" 5 shot groups at 25 yds. from the prone position. You don't have to have all the gizmos to learn to find your NPOA and put the 6 steps to firing the shot to work for you. Once you get the basics down and can use the little extra benefits of the mods and you feel the benefit is worth the money have at it. Spending the money now may be getting ahead of the curve (you paid for it now but won't really see the benefit till later). Besides, once you get good with the mostly stock rifle you'll get so much more enjoyment out of it when you go to the range and outshoot the guys with the high dollar target rifles. It's a good feeling, I remember it.
Quote from: BBA on July 05, 2007, 09:17:04 PM
So the bolt stop modification and magazine release modification are in the trigger assembly? What about the receiver paint stripping & barrel bedding?
Both modifications are in the trigger group.
Stripping paint and bedding aren't really needed. I've seen a 245 shot with a minimally modified 10/22 (scope, trigger and bolt release). Hard to beat that.
FWIW, Natchez Shooter's Supply has CCI Blazer .22RF ammo on sale at $1.19/box50, vs. usual $2.65. Shipping and hazmat charges, of course. 100 boxes= 1 case, and so shipped if so ordered. If your .22 likes it (all mine do), now might be a good time to stock up. No commercial interest.
Liinky:http://www.natchezss.com/ammo.cfm?contentID=productDetail&ammoGroup=4&brand=CC&prodID=CC0021 (http://www.natchezss.com/ammo.cfm?contentID=productDetail&ammoGroup=4&brand=CC&prodID=CC0021)
Grin Reaper,
I'd like to put your main post summarizing the 10/22 Liberty Training Rifle in this month's GunNews as an article. Do you or anyone with one completed have a picture or two of the rifles, either complete or being worked on?
If they don't exist, can someone with one of the completed rifles get me some? Maybe a side by side of an unmodified one, along with a modified one showing the sights, a sling, the extended mag release if visible.
Thanks,
JN
Sure, as long as you represent the Liberty Trainer as a program of the Appleseed Project's members, and that I did not come up with all this good info myself, I just brought it together.
Just made another mod to my 10/22 Training rifle and it made a world of difference in my shooting.
I am almost 70 yrs. old and eyesight is not great. I have problems with iron(or whatever material) sights and really don't want a scope on this rifle.
I took a Weaver TO-9 base and cut it to fit in front of my Tech sight base. I then put a cheap Red-Dot on it with a 1MOA dot and tried it out. Man, what a difference it made in my shooting.
I may have to come back and drill/tap my base and receiver for a third hole later but it's working great now.
I just used the two front screws and bedded the rear of the base with J.B. Weld to the receiver. I did wax the top of the receiver so the J.B. would not stick and the base can be removed. I also used Loc-Tite on the base screws.
QuoteSure, as long as you represent the Liberty Trainer as a program of the Appleseed Project's members, and that I did not come up with all this good info myself, I just brought it together.
Absolutely. I appreciate what everyone is doing and contributing.
I can take the "before" picture of my stock 10-22 that I'm about to embark on making a LTR (Liberty Training Rifle, with which I hope to have a LTR - Long Term Relationship. ;D
Anyone who's got one complete and can send a pic...
JN
http://www.rwva.org/yabbse/index.php?topic=1149.0
lots of info, as well as some pictures, from the old site, on turning a 10/22 into a MBR simulator training rifle.
OK guys,
I just got another Ruger 10/22 today. It and the other one I had previously are going in my shop this afternoon to modify into my version of the LTR. Mine will probably have a scope setup as I am a "scope guy" when it comes to shooting rifle. ( Sorry Fred) I intend to have them both up and ready for the event at Hinesville in September for my two boys. They both have MBR's (Garands) but the price of ammo is getting out of hand, even for me. Sooo.. it's LTR's for the boys while I attempt to shot rifleman with my "EBR" as I promised Grin I would in RevWar uniform.
I have been practicing a good bit since I got Fred's package and I really like the ghost targets. If my heart problems stay under control(Pumlonary Hypertension) I should give a good account of the RevWar reenactment community during the event. If not, oh well, a cook/gunsmith(artificer) may be all I will ever be. I guess I can live with that. But it wont be for lack of effort.
Thanks for the good ideas on the LTR. I will get right on them while I am here at the shop.
cannonman61
Well, I purchased a Carbine so I have joined the ranks of the 10/22 world. Now its on to the customizing. Is everyone using standard velocity .22LR rounds?
Ax
Wally World keeps raising their prices on the Special 10/22.
When I bought mine(first of the year) it $219.95, then they went to $229.95 and now they are $239.95 as of day before yesterday.
I wanted to buy another one but will now start looking for used ones( have not seen any yet)
The Walmart closest to my house has stopped selling firearms. Colonial Shooter says the one in Petersburg, VA has also stopped selling them. Only the largest WalMart in our area will continue to sell rifles and shotguns. He also says the ones that have stopped selling guns will also stop selling ammo as well. Not sure I'll shop at Walmart much in the future.
Hey guys,
Bass Pro shops here in the south use the 10/22 as a loss leader in their marketing/sales scheme regularly. They are on sale July 1- 15 at the Savannah store for $169.95!!! I got mine wholesale from JSC for only a few bucks less so it pays to watch the adds if you are not an FFL holder or know one real well.
M1A4ME,
My friends in the firearms industry tell me that the Wallmart stores that quit selling firearms are not doing it for political reasons. It's because the minimum wage labor they hire keep screwing up the necessary paperwork that goes with firearms transactions and the stores are getting into trouble. The easiest cure is to get out of the firearms business.
Doug in Virginia
Well, maybe I'll keep buying ammo from them, if they keep selling it at reasonable prices (.22 ammo that is).
I just got mine, and slinged it up. Unfortunately tech-sights are on back order so I won't get mine in time for the Medford Appleseed (my first appleseed). I shot the rifle today with the stock irons and it is dead accurate, and will be much more so with the tech-sights and the longer site radius. Since I won't have the tech-sights in time I'll be bring my m1a to the appleseed.
Cheers.
Doug
I've been reading a lot of commentary on 22lr rifles, and found myself wondering why the 10/22 was chosen for this program. From commentary I've read the Marlin 60 is cheaper, seems to be more accurate out of the box, is atleast equally reliable, and being tube fed instead of magazine fed i would think would be a distinct advantage in a survivalist type situation due to not having to worry about losing or wearing-out magazines.
Realizing all of the above is subjective, based on this I have started to really lean towards the Marlin 60, but I keep coming back to one of my main goals in getting a 22lr rifle is to learn to shoot & attend a appleseed. Which of course leads me to think to myself, why buck the groups convention, going with the 10/22 will allow for commonality with other appleseeders in the event that I need assistance.
Was the 10/22 chosen primarily based on the ability to customize it for similar manual of arms as the commonly shot M1A? How big of an issue is this?
Loading a tube fed takes time!
Might be better in a survivalist situation, but will really impact the tempo of an Appleseed.
Yes, difficult to safely load (on a firing line while sitting or prone) a tube fed rifle quickly enough to finish within the time limits.
Yes, the 10/22 when set up correctly closely mimics the M1A/M1 rifle. It's close enough for me that I've gotten down in prone, inserted the mag., wrapped up in my hasty sling, laid my cheek on the stock, gotten my NPOA and then wasted time searching for my M1A/M1's safety with my trigger finger. Only when I raised my head up off the rifle to try to see what was wrong with the safety did I realize it was my 10/22. When I related this story on the M14 Firing Line Public Forum it got some chuckles/laughs as others have done the same thing. It's that close.
Accessories (sights, stocks, butt extensions, magazines, bolt hold open/release, trigger/sear, etc.) are wide open for the 10/22. Not sure about the Marlin.
As for accuracy? As bad as my up close eye sight is (can't focus on the front sight - always has a blurry look that I can't get rid of) my 10/22 will do 5/8" shot groups at 25 yds.
I don't care who makes it or what it looks like as long as it gets the job done. While I think Ruger makes a good gun and I own several, none of them are my first choice for serious work of the type where your safety or your family's safety is at risk. That's reserved for the M1A, the Colt .45 ACP and the Ithaca 12 ga. riot gun.
Before you buy do some searching on the internet for availability of the accessories you'll need to shoot the rifle (whether at Appleseeds, the rifle range or small game hunting) and pick what you feel will work best for you. Hopefully the folks that suggest the 10/22 are doing so based on their positive experience and not "something they heard/read". I think you'll find that this is a forum of shooters who talk about shooting. It's not a forum of collectors who talk about shooting. There's a difference. Hang around, attend an Appleseed and an RBC and you'll see the difference between shooters who talk and talkers who (sometimes) shoot.
Have a good one.
Since it has been brought up, may I point out that from a "survivalist" point of view, tube-fed rifles have one serious liability.
One good ding in the tube and your rifle has a problem. At best a replacement of the tube, if you have one and are able to do the job. At worst, it is now a relatively heavy single-shot. Tube and mag maintenance about equal out, though most folks are neglectful of both of these issues until problems crop up. Of course, it is too late then.
The militaries of the world had a chance to evaluate tube-fed vs. mag fed rifles long ago. Both types have seen their share of combat usage. The tube was found wanting.
If you already have a tube-fed, then by all means bring it to an Appleseed. You will find that the Instructors will make a point of working with you and your rifle so that you can get the most out of the experience.
BBA, to answer your question, the 10/22 was chosen by a member who wanted a rifle that had (or could have added to it) sights that approximated the sight picture of his M1A and M1 Garand. At the time, the 10/22 with TechSights was the only choice. TechSights has noted that they are working on a set of aperture sights for the Marlin 60, but these are not yet available.
The idea really took off when somebody (Junior Birdman?) found a stock with an adjustable length of pull for the 10/22.
Someone pointed out the quick-reload advantage of the 10/22 vs tube-fed rifles, and this was also a factor.
You're right that the Marlin 60 is less expensive; I just handled a Remington 597, which is also cheaper (maybe TechSights will make up a sight for it, next!).
Well I have now slinged up my little 10/22! My wife says the little rifle is not as intimidating in the house or garage as the M1A, so happy wife.....? Woohooo! She is the money of the marraige and when I said I can shoot ALL day for 30$, well, she LOVES the 10/22 now!! LOL ;D Am I a good husband or WHAT?!?!? Time to order the tech sights roll out the shooting matt, place the 1" blocks up at 82 feet and see what she says!
10/22 Liberty Training Rifles -- Good for Appleseed AND for your budget! marriage!
Building my version of the 22 LTR now.
Ramline has a deal out. Injection molded stock, 2 10 round mags, extended mag release and a bipod for very litle dough. I got mine from jerrys along with a new 10-22. and a Tasco 4x scope and rings. Dealer cost just over $200. :)
I assembled the thing and ranged it and it shows promise. I will have to work on some kind of iron sights even though I prefer glass for sights in my advancing years. :-[
My sons will use 10-22's at our Appleseed here in Hinesville in September, while I will attempt to use my AR to make the grade. I plan on the boys bringing their Garands for some long range practice on Sunday.
Ammo cost is twice the issue when you have kids.
Mine have been shooting for years, let's hope they dont embarass me at the event when asked to shot in 3 positions. The older on wont,or shouldn't, but the younger one is not as familiar as his brother with all things rifle. He prefers his sports have a ball involved. :-\
i finally got my 10/22 carbine to the range yesterday. I REALLY enjoyed shooting it. While my groups in prone with the attached M14 sling WILL be better with the tech sights, I got a 1.5 inch group at 82 feet with 10 shots from the factory clip! I am not bragging, please don't take me as such. I really enjoyed that little rifle and when I get back from vacation this coming week the first thing on the agenda ( right after loathing returning to work) is buying those tech sights. WIth the iron sights though, I diagnosed that I needed the better sights as my groups were all about 3" spread let to right on the Small Bore NRA target.
I had troubles getting and staying fixed on the front sight with that buckhorn rear sight with the painted diamond on it. I was really straining my eyes to focus and I found it rather difficult to maintain the sight picture well, eyes kept focusing to the rear. SO...... I am encouraging all I come in contact with (my cousin from wabash shoot was with me and plans on buying one too!) to get that sling on there and tech sights! We also had a young man just back from Talafar who was impressed with our shooting skills! I only responded NPOA! and the Appleseed clinics JUST PLAIN HELP!! We are working on him to get his own M4 like his he had in Iraq or (hopefully even better!) a M1A. He really likes mine.
Another testimony to the Appleseed and its ability to turn not only heads around with shooting skills but also its ability to turn shooting skills around in a positive direction!
Ax
Hey Grin,
I was just on the Tech-Site website and tried to order some sets. No such luck. Both the 1000 and 2000 are on back order! :o
What did you do? Order their entire production run already? :o
Oh, well. I will stick to glass for the time being as the stock sights just plain suck.
Cannonman
If you are stuck with the stock iron sights you can black out the white diamond on the back sight, then you can put sight paint or a bright color of nail polish on the front.
Good idea about the rear diamond sight! I blacked out the front sight, but didnt think of the rear..DUH!! I will wait 3 weeks then order the sights still.
Az
QuoteHey Grin,
I was just on the Tech-Site website and tried to order some sets. No such luck. Both the 1000 and 2000 are on back order!
What did you do? Order their entire production run already?
I prefer to think of it as the overwhelming free-market influence of the Appleseed Program on the American small-business. ;D
I finally foud a Walmart that still sells firearms. It's over an hour away, but I'm there weekly for business anyways.
Quick question. Do the WM Special 10/22's mentioned here (with the 22" barrel) have a special barrel material ? Something like SST or plated? The one at this WM did. There wasn't anybody at the counter so I couldn't ask any questions when I was there, but it definitely had a different material barrel than the "carbine" version right next to it with the 18-1/2" barrel.
Also any good recommendations for quality .22 ammo available in bulk at good prices would be appreciated.
The Wmart special rifles have stainless barrels, (22"), and the receivers are painted silver.
After much trial and error, seems most folks settle on the Remington Golden Bullet. 525 rounds for about 14 bucks, cheap, and the rifle really likes it.
Last time I past the CMP south store they had 500 rd bricks of their standard velocity match ammo for $15.00. I got a brick to try out, but haven't been able to shoot in so long I don't think I remember which end the round comes out of. Report when I do get to it though...... unless I pick the wrong end. JB
Quotequality .22 ammo available in bulk at good prices would be appreciated.
Federal -- 550rds/$10.98 at WalMart. Remington, about $2 more. Winchester, somewhere in between..
thanks guys
As I just posted on the Deals and steals thred, Basspro shops have the 10/22 on sale one day only August 19th for an astounding $139.88!!!!
Find a Basspro shop nearest you, take a buddy and go get one, or better yet two!
Lots of practice for little dough!!!
CM61
Quote from: cannonman61 on August 04, 2007, 12:50:13 PMBasspro shops have the 10/22 on sale one day only August 19th for an astounding $139.88!!!!
Can someone post a link to this information?
OK, I picked up my 10/22 the other day. Looking at the OP recommendations for modifications I have a couple of questions.
1) Which model of the Tech-Sights should I go for (when they are back in stock), the TSR100 or the TSR200? Is the additional elevation adjustment at the rear sight needed/useful?
2) Where is a good place to get a US GI sling? I assume Fred's store?
3) What brands of automatic bolt release do you guys recommend? From the OP it doesn't seem like CST is recommended due to modified magazine requirement. I have seen a couple of other brands from searching, but any recommendations?
4) Is the Bell and Carlson extended mag release the way to go or are there other brands recommended?
Thanks.
They ought to be in stock by now -- our 1st group but was shipped a few weeks ago.
The elevation-adjustable rear sight is nice, esp if youplan on shooting at ranges other than 25m. For 25m-only, the front sight gives enough elev. adjustment, IMHO.
Nickle, any thoughts on bolt releases. I think you've 'done-up' more of these than anyone.
On my first 10/22, I used the 200. Elevation hard to adjust. Front sight easier.
Stick with same ammo and in most cases, you do not have to change elevation.
On my second, I used the 100 and happy with it.
Sling, Fred may be out(he was at one time,nylon I mean, Fred may still have cotton slings )CDNN has brand new cotton web slings for $6.99. Just got two of them.
CST--- I bought one and had all kinds of problems. Removed and put in junk box along with their Mod. Mags.
All other Auto-Bolt Releases work great but in just a few minutes you can rework your own to work just as well( check several 10/22 forums for a How-To)
I assume you mean an extended mag release for #4. I have a Volquartsen($13.00 )and an Eagle ($3.99 at CDNN). Both work great. Again in a few minutes you can drill your own and put a stud in it. Either glued or screwed.( Also How-To several places)
I alter the original bolt release myself, using a Dremel tool. Don't even think of getting a auto bolt hold open. They require modified magazines. The auto release doesn't, and is highly recommended. Extended mag releases are nice.
http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30867 (http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30867)
That's where I got my info. Of course, you could buy one already done. Midway has them.
If Fred doesn't have slings available, Midway has them. Fred's should be cheaper, if he has any.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=174603 (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=174603) http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=777813 (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=777813)
Tech-Sights website says they'll be out until the end of the month.
My 10/22 shoots Remington Golden Bullets to the same POA/POI from 25 to 100 yds., no sight adjustment required once it was sighted in at 25 yds. Try yours with 2 or 3 different types of ammo (to see what it shoots best for the money) and you may see the same thing.
I bought the cheap little Eagle 10 rnd magazines and the magazine release on those feels pretty natural. It is sliding piece on the back of the magazine. You grab the magazine with your trigger hand, use your thumb to push the sliding piece up, it activated the magazine release on the rifle and you pull the magazine out. Feels a lot like the M1A. Buy a couple. If you like them buy some for back up (some folks say they are pretty cheap and won't last too long, they are plastic but so are some pretty vital parts of your AR15 - if you own one of those).
My mileage varied re: Eagle mags.
One stopped feeding less than 200rds into its life; the other stopped locking in place reliably.
Steel Lips mags, on the other hand, have not given me any problems, and have about the same shape/size as the Eagles.
I've heard so many bad things about aftermarket 10/22 mags that, for the time being, I'm sticking with Ruger mags.
on the mags, are the higher capacity mags (25-30 round) recommended/useful or are 10 rounders sufficient for appleseed drills? How many mags should one plan to have?
Anybody that has used the high capacity mags, does the length of the mag cause any issues in various positions/situations?
The higher-than-10-rd mags are really only useful (IMHO) on the QDAQT when it is shot 'straight though' [as opposed to in stages], as there are fewer mag changes needed.
I have one Butler Creek 25rd mag, which has worked just fine so far, but it tends to dig into one's forearm when prone much as a 30rd AR15 mag does.
Must be a "short arm" issue. No pun intended. I've got all 10 rnd. magazines for one reason - those are the cheapest ones to buy that will get you through a stage. It the Eagles don't last I'm "out" about $5 or $6 each for them and I'll try something else.
Quote from: BBA on August 05, 2007, 11:13:14 PM
on the mags, are the higher capacity mags (25-30 round) recommended/useful or are 10 rounders sufficient for appleseed drills? How many mags should one plan to have?
Anybody that has used the high capacity mags, does the length of the mag cause any issues in various positions/situations?
If one moves the supporting arm far forward (as is best), the 25 rd BC mags pose no problem. If you have medium or short arms, then switch to Ruger 10 or 5 rd mags clipped together at their bottoms with a little gizmo from E&L manufacturing. Just be careful about inadvertantly getting dirt/debris in the bottom mag, whose open end is always down.
I have found it useful to count my shots and have a spare mag handy whose capacity equals the number of shots in the stage you are shooting. If there's a malf, dump old mag, insert new one, and continue shooting until the shot limit is reached. I have done it during an Appleseed, so you can as well. If you practice a bit before attending an Appleseed, you will not have quite as much to absorb, and counting shots will not be too much of a burden.
Pardon my direction change......
I just read in the September Guns and Ammo magazine an article about how subsonic is not subject to the heat and sounds changes of standard velocity .22LR ammo. They write ( and show a list of group sizes per brand) about the results and characteristics of the ammo compared to the standard velocity. Anyone have any experience with this? I plan on purchasing some just to run the paces and see.
??
Ax
Check rimfirecentral.com on the subject.
There is a loss of accuracy when the bullet transitions from supersonic to subsonic.
If it starts out subsonic, or stays supersonic to the target, there is no issue.
I think you'll find standard 22 ammo stays supersonic to 25 meters, but, that's just an assumption, and needs to be checked.
Oh, please delete your thread in the General Discussion area, and start a new one on the subject in th Reloading area. I'll try to sticky it for you.
It is a very good thought, and needs to be sticky'd and discussed.
I'm not sure they are worth the added cost and are so close to standard ???
Hey Nickle, Can you reccomend an inexpensive scope for the 10/22? Tech sights don't have any sights available and I want to bring a 10/22 to BC with me to shoot as a secondary rifle. I have a bull barrel on it and was looking at some scopes, but I honestly have never bought glass for any rifles I have owned. I have always used iron. Thanks!!
Well, I may have a deal for you.
First I'll recommend using a full sized scope, for a centerfire rifle. .22 scopes just SUCK.
Specifically I recommend an older steel tube Weaver scope. Any good or fairly good rifle scope should work.
Do you already have the scope mount, the wide one for standard Weaver rings? They come with new 10/22's.
Reason I ask is I may have a V8 Weaver you can borrow, and I can send it down with Fred, if he doesn't mind doing so.
Or, I can loan you a set of Tech Sights, also brought down by Fred.
Your choice.
I will take the scope offer. I am going to get tech sights but I have a bull barrel coming and from their mounting info on it, I have to put it on with lock-tight and don't want to mess up yours. I plan on shooting centerfire while at BC, but I need a rifle for my female RBC attendee that is coming to the Davilla RBC. So I want to make sure it is set up right and I can get her squared away on it.
Now ,if you have some extra tech sights, the regular ones for the regular 10/22 just setting around, I will buy them from you for another 10/22 I am getting ready as a loaner for the appleseed here. I am trying to have seven or eight loaner rifles for the appleseed here in Nov. But they are all different rifles. Enfields, SKSs, etc.
Quote from: Scout on August 08, 2007, 05:20:17 PM
I will take the scope offer. I am going to get tech sights but I have a bull barrel coming and from their mounting info on it, I have to put it on with lock-tight and don't want to mess up yours. I plan on shooting centerfire while at BC, but I need a rifle for my female RBC attendee that is coming to the Davilla RBC. So I want to make sure it is set up right and I can get her squared away on it.
Now ,if you have some extra tech sights, the regular ones for the regular 10/22 just setting around, I will buy them from you for another 10/22 I am getting ready as a loaner for the appleseed here. I am trying to have seven or eight loaner rifles for the appleseed here in Nov. But they are all different rifles. Enfields, SKSs, etc.
Scope it is, rings are on it. Do you have a base as well?
I don't have enough Tech Sight sets now, short 2 sets as it is, and those rifles are currently wearing scopes, as the original sights are just horrible.
You can send it back up after you get the Tech Sights, just as long as I have it back by 1 October or so, as I'll want it for the 20-21 Oct Jericho Appleseed (if the young Sergeant shooting my M14 has eyesight issues, which is likely).
Quote from: Nickle on August 08, 2007, 04:39:34 PM
Well, I may have a deal for you.
First I'll recommend using a full sized scope, for a centerfire rifle. .22 scopes just SUCK.
Specifically I recommend an older steel tube Weaver scope. Any good or fairly good rifle scope should work.
Do you already have the scope mount, the wide one for standard Weaver rings? They come with new 10/22's.
Reason I ask is I may have a V8 Weaver you can borrow, and I can send it down with Fred, if he doesn't mind doing so.
Or, I can loan you a set of Tech Sights, also brought down by Fred.
Your choice.
I have personally heard that centerfire rifle scopes wear out faster if they are put on .22s. I can't personally say this is true, but the guy I talked to is quite an experienced gunsmith and shooter, and I trust his opinion on glass. I don't think that it would wear out during a week at RBC, but maybe a back-up wouldn't hurt since you'll be doing a lot of shooting.
I put an old steel tube 4 power weaver on my 10/22 last year. That scope was on several 30.06's over the years (semi and bolt action) with no problems. After a few range sessions on my 10/22 the horizontal cross hair decided to separate about midways of the scope and curl downward. Just for info.
Well, there may be some truth to that, but, I'd wager it is a case of cause and effect.
Most .22's get treated pretty poorly, and then there's the fact that the favored rifle of most teens is a .22, and we KNOW how they treat stuff. Plus, most centerfire scopes put on .22's are pretty crappy.
Seriously, if you put good quality optics on a .22, you won't go wrong. THat's why mine that are scoped are qwearing a Simmons (donated on the rifle) and a V8 Weaver. I'm probably putting a T6 Weaver on another for a little while, until I get some Tech Sights in.
That V8 Weaver is at least 40 years old, an old steel tubed antique, one of the early variables. It has EXTERNAL adjustments, in the rear ring. But, it works. The T6 is probably 30 years old. You just can't kill an old Weaver, short of actual abuse. Well, maybe M1A4ME has a legit failure.
I found some great data from a group that holds 300 yard shooting competitions for .22 shooters.
You read that right -- .22's at 300 yards.
QuoteA few hints to get ready
1. If you can sight your rifle in at 35 yards to shoot 13.5 inches high you will be close at 300 yards.
2. If you can not adjust to 18 inches high a 30 thousands shim under the rear scope ring will do it.
Burris signature rings set with 0.015 down front and 0.015 up back is an elegant way to do this.
3. Hyper velocity stuff knocks down even the hard set targets.
4. Many people think a 22 cannot be shot accurately at 300 yards. This is horse feathers we have
run 7 or 8 straight a number of times. Plan to learn a little about wind, have a good time, and knock over
a few Buffs
from http://www.oscinc.org/Buffalo_runners.html
I just bought a Tactical solutions matt green fluted bull barrel form a company in Kentucky. I told him we might want some more of them and he agreed to discount a group buy. So, if sometime in the future some guys want to get some of these just sing out. Mine was $179.00 with no shipping charge. I looked around a bit and it seemed to be a good price.
Hey Muddog, Not true of 22s being hard on those designed for center fire.
Probably got started when some scopes did not hold up when used on air
rifles due to a differing type of shock when fired. With the exception of some
very old Weaver B scopes, almost all my serious 22s wear the standard type
1" glass from cheap, to costing more than the rifle. Many of the Weaver Bs
and those designed for 22s have the paralex adjustment for 50 to 75 yards,
whereas the 1" average scope for center fire is 100 yards. With an AO,
you can do your own tuning, but honestly have not noticed a big difference
with modern scopes that could mess ya up. With the same cheek meld on
the stock is would make it a moot point anyhow. Most, even the cheaper ones
are are of a better quality of years ago. I suffered one cross hair breakage
with an inexpensive Bushnel on a Win. Md 100, 308, and a wandering point
of inpact on another brand in over 50 years of using glass sights. ;D
Well, like I said, I've never seen it happen(although I did put an air rifle scope on a .22 and that didn't last 10 seconds) but I'm just going to keep going the safer route.
Getting back on the LTR subject, a few months back I mentioned modifing a 10/22 to look more like a military rifle, like an M14. Well instead of using the M14 as a base for the cosmetics, I think that the M1 carbine would probably be a better choice, as it is much closer to the weight of a 10/22 than the M14, and with the Tech sights it would look pretty good. So that's what I'm going with, I'll post a picture up here when I am done, so no one go anywhere for the next several months! ;D
Hey, if it works well and it doesn't take too much time and money, I might just think about making it a prototype for future business...
Quote from: Muddogg on August 13, 2007, 08:13:16 PM
Well, like I said, I've never seen it happen(although I did put an air rifle scope on a .22 and that didn't last 10 seconds) but I'm just going to keep going the safer route.
Getting back on the LTR subject, a few months back I mentioned modifing a 10/22 to look more like a military rifle, like an M14. Well instead of using the M14 as a base for the cosmetics, I think that the M1 carbine would probably be a better choice, as it is much closer to the weight of a 10/22 than the M14, and with the Tech sights it would look pretty good. So that's what I'm going with, I'll post a picture up here when I am done, so no one go anywhere for the next several months! ;D
Hey, if it works well and it doesn't take too much time and money, I might just think about making it a prototype for future business...
Mudogg, rather than reinvent the wheel, why not rebuild 10/22's into what we use now?
I figure there is going to be an interest in them. We had several at Proctor, VT, both the Northeast loaners and a few owned by others.
Also, I've been asked to post some info on what I've done, and will do further, to the ones I'm using.
That is going to be a work in progress.
Quote from: Nickle on August 13, 2007, 08:35:42 PM
Quote from: Muddogg on August 13, 2007, 08:13:16 PM
Well, like I said, I've never seen it happen(although I did put an air rifle scope on a .22 and that didn't last 10 seconds) but I'm just going to keep going the safer route.
Getting back on the LTR subject, a few months back I mentioned modifing a 10/22 to look more like a military rifle, like an M14. Well instead of using the M14 as a base for the cosmetics, I think that the M1 carbine would probably be a better choice, as it is much closer to the weight of a 10/22 than the M14, and with the Tech sights it would look pretty good. So that's what I'm going with, I'll post a picture up here when I am done, so no one go anywhere for the next several months! ;D
Hey, if it works well and it doesn't take too much time and money, I might just think about making it a prototype for future business...
Mudogg, rather than reinvent the wheel, why not rebuild 10/22's into what we use now?
I figure there is going to be an interest in them. We had several at Proctor, VT, both the Northeast loaners and a few owned by others.
Also, I've been asked to post some info on what I've done, and will do further, to the ones I'm using.
That is going to be a work in progress.
True, The sling system of the M1 carbine probably won't be adequate enough for teaching proper sling use, so that is a minus. Basically I just want to make a 10/22 to be the "training wheels" of some of the military rifles you see at Appleseeds(come to think of it, how many people come to an appleseed with a M1 carbine?).
I've also seen so many of those crazy drop-in kits in ads and SGN, such as the MG-42 style, Pullpup, and "Krinker Plinker" designed to look like an AK-74U, but no older versions of the guns we love, so I was thinking of working on that.
I'm looking forward to seeing your improvements on the LTR, I'm sure they will be awesome!
A burning question in my mind at the moment to everyone on this forum: What are you looking for in a training rifle as an instructor or as a student?
Well, here's what I did (or will do, in the case of a couple items), the cost of the items, and this is a decent priced, working setup. All prices are retail. They are not special or sale prices, nor are they group buy prices. These are 24/7/365 retail prices.
First, I started with Ruger 10/22 Carbines.
Add Tech Sights. Add DPMS Rapidex knob, for ease of adjusting (optional).
http://www.tech-sights.com/ruger3.htm (http://www.tech-sights.com/ruger3.htm) $55.00
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=353544 (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=353544) $8.49
Install sling swivels studs, detachable swivels and a USGI M1 Garand type sling.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=705310 (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=705310) $9.49
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=777813 (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=777813) $10.29, black, also comes in green.
Add extended mag release.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=662086 (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=662086) $4.49
Replace bolt release and hammer (or rework existing ones). I reworked mine. Not for the inexperienced.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=145851 (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=145851) $35.99
Add a BoreSnake, sight adjusting tool and spare mags.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=260083 (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=260083) $14.49
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=260328 (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=260328) $6.99
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=252579 (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=252579) $12.99 each. I recommend at LEAST 3 of them.
Muddog said: "Getting back on the LTR subject, a few months back I mentioned modifing a 10/22 to look more like a military rifle, like an M14. Well instead of using the M14 as a base for the cosmetics, I think that the M1 carbine would probably be a better choice, as it is much closer to the weight of a 10/22 than the M14, and with the Tech sights it would look pretty good."
Here's mine:
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r109/ChanBates/1022Trainer003.jpg)
Shoots great for adults or my 11-year old grandson. Started with a 10/22 carbine (shorter stock/barrel, no barrel band), added tech sights, black poly forearm, detachable sling swivels, ext. mag release, reground bolt release, trigger work (4 lbs, smooth), bolt buffer, leather sling. It's small and light, so it will waive if not held steady, but it shoots @ 25 meters just fine. Rifle = $225 OTD, accessories = another $100.
CB3
Quote from: Nickle on August 13, 2007, 09:30:18 PM
Well, here's what I did (or will do, in the case of a couple items), the cost of the items, and this is a decent priced, working setup. All prices are retail. They are not special or sale prices, nor are they group buy prices. These are 24/7/365 retail prices.
...
Excellent information, thanks Nickle. I assume everything is identical whether based on the carbine, rifle, or WM rifle. I can't see why it would be different.
I have 4 10/22 carbines and a 10/22 International (stainless).
The parts are the same, except I didn't use the sling parts on the International, as it had a sling on it. It may wear a leather sling in the future.
Quote from: CB3 on August 14, 2007, 12:36:04 AM
Muddog said: "Getting back on the LTR subject, a few months back I mentioned modifing a 10/22 to look more like a military rifle, like an M14. Well instead of using the M14 as a base for the cosmetics, I think that the M1 carbine would probably be a better choice, as it is much closer to the weight of a 10/22 than the M14, and with the Tech sights it would look pretty good."
(Picture edited out to conserve space -MD)
Shoots great for adults or my 11-year old grandson. Started with a 10/22 carbine (shorter stock/barrel, no barrel band), added tech sights, black poly forearm, detachable sling swivels, ext. mag release, reground bolt release, trigger work (4 lbs, smooth), bolt buffer, leather sling. It's small and light, so it will waive if not held steady, but it shoots @ 25 meters just fine. Rifle = $225 OTD, accessories = another $100.
CB3
Outstanding, that looks exactly like what I want to build! I'll definately take note of this when I start working on mine, and the only thing I would add is maybe some replica or used M1 Carbine parts like a Buttplate and a barrel band(if I can get it to fit well enough) It probably wouldn't be hard to add a little weight to the fore end to make it steadier. Thanks for the pic CB3!
Quote from: Muddogg on August 13, 2007, 08:55:31 PMcome to think of it, how many people come to an appleseed with a M1 carbine?
I did... unfortunately, I had reliability problems, so she'll have to get worked on first. I'm actually debating getting a scope mount given my issues with seeing a one inch square at 25m. I see that Cheaper Than Dirt has some for about $50 in the latest flyer.
Quote from: dwarven1 on August 15, 2007, 09:45:50 AM
Quote from: Muddogg on August 13, 2007, 08:55:31 PMcome to think of it, how many people come to an appleseed with a M1 carbine?
I did... unfortunately, I had reliability problems, so she'll have to get worked on first. I'm actually debating getting a scope mount given my issues with seeing a one inch square at 25m. I see that Cheaper Than Dirt has some for about $50 in the latest flyer.
Do not, repeat
do not, put a receiver scope mount on an M1 carbine.
If you must scope one, the only way to do so that works very well IMHO is the Ultimak mount. It's a forward rail replacing the handguard. It does not disrupt the iron sights like receiver mounts will. Done properly, you can remove your optic and get back on the issue iron sights in under 10 seconds.
http://ultimak.com/
I've done this to a couple of carbines with excellent results. You can use the intermediate (IER) "scout" or extended (EER) "pistol" scope of your choice, or a red dot, reflex, etc. I recommend something small to keep the balance and handling acceptable. Also, it really
must have a quick release mount if you plan to depend upon the rifle in any tight situations. I like Leupold QRW rings. For red dots, the Zeiss Z-point is about perfect, albeit not cheap.
What's your life worth?
Do it right. Load it with 110gr soft point ammo (Remington seems to have the best SP bullet right now). Make sure it's 100% reliable. If using an optic, do with the Ultimak and make it quick release. Fine a way to use a white light with it as well (I've used several methods).
If you want a synthetic stock, the Choate models are good (give you a pistol grip too, if that's of interest).
Set up so, the M1 carbine is an effective "house rifle" that is handy, adequately powerful, and effective.
Nickle, have you done the trigger "stoning" that is referenced here in this thread? I looked at it and then there were posts from folks who said it would cause trigger creep and could be dangerous etc. Would it just be eaiser (or safer) to get the sets from Midway?
Scout, I'll send you a PM. But, I'll say straight up I modified mine.
Stoning a trigger (or any other trigger modifications, other than swapping parts) is NOT for the inexperienced.
Quote from: Nickle on August 15, 2007, 05:09:39 PM
Scout, I'll send you a PM. But, I'll say straight up I modified mine.
Stoning a trigger (or any other trigger modifications, other than swapping parts) is NOT for the inexperienced.
I second that. It is WAY to easy to mess it up if you don't know what you are doing(even if you know what you are doing you can still mess up but you usually can see that you fouled it up and replace it). Stick with the drop in kits or have a professional do it.
Plus if it goes auto on you, the ATF will definately try their best to lock you up for a good long time.
Howdy, ya'll!
I just got back from my first Appleseed, and needless to say, I've got the bug. One of my first orders of business is building a couple LTRs. With that in mind, I have a couple questions:
1 - is there a reason everyone chooses the carbine model to build their LTRs. I've handled a couple of the 18" models, and they seem awfully small and light to me (I'm not huge, but I'm 6" with decently long arms). Is there a reason why you couldn't or wouldn't want to use the 10/22RR (20" barrel) or 10/22-T (20" bull barrel) models?
2 - if I wanted to put an after market barrel on my LTR, would I have issues installing the front Tech Sights?
3 - can anyone suggest a good source for my rifles? I want to build at least two, maybe more, because I plan to do a lot of sharing/loaning/recruiting. I'm in the People's Republic of Massachusetts, so no Bass Pro shops, and it's quite a hike to a Walmart that sells guns (and I'm not to keep on buying from them anyway).
4 - when it comes time to start building, I'm a newbie to firearms and not the most technically proficient guy in the world to begin with. I can handle drop-in parts, but I don't think I should tackle any serious modifications. Can anyone help me out (Nickle, this is where you step in 8) )
Thanks guys!
-TD
Tony, for you, this is an easy one, since you're so close.
I guess you didn't know that one of the 5 LTR's I have is a 10/22 International. I've also got a friend's 10/22 Sporter (DSP) I'm doing some stuff on.
The only reasons many of us use carbines is they're cheaper, and shorter (for those of small stature, like ladies and youths).
The Tech Sight will essentially only work with stock barrels, but, ask Ross how accurate the 10/22 Carbine he was using is. He kept it in 2 MOA most of the time. Sure, much of that was the shooter, but the best shooter out there can't squeeze 2 MOA out of a 6 MOA rifle. SO, stick with the stock barrel (Ruger's heavy barrel is also OK), add the Tech Sights and the few mods mentioned, and there you go.
For source, ask your local shops, and ask Ross where he got his.
Most of the modifications aren't hard, and the newbie should be altering the trigger by parts swapping. If you're up this way, I can help you with that.
So, if you bring the rifles, parts and yourself to Jericho this fall, we can do them up.
Quote from: Nickle on August 15, 2007, 07:54:44 PM
Tony, for you, this is an easy one, since you're so close.
I guess you didn't know that one of the 5 LTR's I have is a 10/22 International. I've also got a friend's 10/22 Sporter (DSP) I'm doing some stuff on.
The only reasons many of us use carbines is they're cheaper, and shorter (for those of small stature, like ladies and youths).
The Tech Sight will essentially only work with stock barrels, but, ask Ross how accurate the 10/22 Carbine he was using is. He kept it in 2 MOA most of the time. Sure, much of that was the shooter, but the best shooter out there can't squeeze 2 MOA out of a 6 MOA rifle. SO, stick with the stock barrel (Ruger's heavy barrel is also OK), add the Tech Sights and the few mods mentioned, and there you go.
For source, ask your local shops, and ask Ross where he got his.
Most of the modifications aren't hard, and the newbie should be altering the trigger by parts swapping. If you're up this way, I can help you with that.
So, if you bring the rifles, parts and yourself to Jericho this fall, we can do them up.
So just to clarify, the Tech Sight
will fit on the 10/22-T with the 20" bull barrel?
You will have to add an adapter, also available from Tech Sights. They're $15.00, and I think raf may have experience with them.
Grin had a Ruger Target Rifle with Tech Sights and adapter at the Toccoa Appleseed November 2006 if I remember correctly(can't really count on that ;D)
I seem to remember he had the TS200 rear sight on it.
Gentlemen,
I have my 10/22 trainer done except for ordering some mags for Bootcamp,I'm going to order 5-10 so I wondered whats best?
thanks for a great forum.
QuoteGrin had a Ruger Target Rifle with Tech Sights and adapter at the Toccoa Appleseed November 2006 if I remember correctly(can't really count on that )
I seem to remember he had the TS200 rear sight on it.
Smartest money I ever spent!
When you mount the 'dove-tail adapter', just make absolutely sure the dovetail is level with the top of the receiver.
Otherwise, the installation is the same as for the standard sights.
QuoteI have my 10/22 trainer done except for ordering some mags for Bootcamp,I'm going to order 5-10 so I wondered whats best?
I like the Butler Creek Steel Lips 10-rounders.
Thanks, I'll order the Butler steel lipped 10 rd mags.
Thanks again for all the great info you guys post.
Butler Creek steel lipped mags work well and stick out farther than stock Ruger 10-round mags so they are easy to remove from the mag well. Most higher capacity mags (20-rounders, for instance) are a crap shoot as to whether they feed well.
The original 10-round Ruger rotary mags are still the best and are a good buy at ca. $12 ea. If you join two together at their bases with a "Dual Clip" they stick out far enough to change rapidly by just inverting the stack. This is quicker and even a little more reliable than fumbling with removing a BC 10-rounder and then inserting another BC 10-rounder.
http://www.clipsnstuff.com/images/products/1022/quadclip.gif (http://www.clipsnstuff.com/images/products/1022/quadclip.gif)
(http://www.clipsnstuff.com/images/products/1022/quadclip.gif)
I think the four way clip is over doing it.
These guys have a number of other accessories for the LTR, decent prices, fast shipping, good to deal with. http://www.clipsnstuff.com/1022.shtml
CB3
If you use stock Ruger mags, a decent bolt release (like the Bell & Carson, cheap and good) and don't fiddle with things, the stock mags will drop free on their own.
Roger, there are 4 dimples at the front of the magazines that have to be trimmed down for them to drop free.
Chris, I bought my 10/22 at Service Merchandise in Paramus, NJ... in 1981. So that won't help you. HOWEVER... Zero Hour Arms in Easton says they have several at $125 each and I'm working with Phillip at Yankee Artifacts in Northboro to get one somewhere in that price range... but if he keeps blowing me off, I'm just driving the hour to Easton tomorrow night. >:(
I've had no problems with them, but, I'll check the mags, and alter as needed. Did the ones you were using drop out OK this past weekend?
I'd just drive the hour, and call it good, before they vanish.
$125 is WAY under wholesale, so I'm assuming these are used ones.
I paid $125 for my used one about 3 years ago so $125 now sounds like a good deal.
Just wanted to let everyone know I bought a Tactical Solutions 16.5 inch matt green fluted bull barrel for my 10/22. I know I didn't need to, but wow, if you look at it you will see why I did it. I am bringing it to Ramseur for every one to evaluate. I don't have a custom trigger yet, but the stock one does not break too bad. I will either work on it myself, with the tutoring of Nickle, or buy the parts from Nickle when I get home.
I have also worked out a deal with the vendor to give us a discount on them for a group buy. I bought this one for $179.00 shipped to my door (in two days). Tac Sol website shows them to be $180.00 without shipping and this guy talked to the factory and said they had agreed to a discount. Start lining up so we can get a good deal on them. Grin thought we could try and get some of the guys from rimfire to come here and join in order to get a discount on the group buy. The vendor also said he would work with us on any of his other products (stocks, etc). I am going to ask him to send out Appleseed literature with his gear also.
It is absolutely beautiful. I also have the Hogue OD green stock to go with it. I have ordered the weaver/pic rail scope mount and will post some pics as soon as I get them. Amyone with any interest i this just PM me.
Has anyone tried/invested/contemplated purshasing and installing hammer and trigger shims? on SKSMAN.COM I seen some for sell and had never come across them before. Any thoughts or takers? Also, an takers on the recoil buffers for the M1A or 10/22? I was thinking with the LTR that extended life do to use of the buffer might be a good thing providing they perform the way they are advertised.
Ax
I've shimmed them with good results, but it isn't really neccessary for good acuracy. If I recall, they are not really cheap considering the small effect on accuracy. I do like the buffer though, it sure keeps from beating up the receiver pin holes. I have a buffer on the M14, and assume it helps, but can't prove it. It just sorta stands to reason. JB
Buffers
I use them in my 10/22's, my FAL, my AK's and SKS's, and a ParaOrdnance P-12 .45. I have never had a problem with any of them being in the actions, and it certainly stands to reason that they both reduce battering and (very slightly) reduce the recoil impulse. They last a long time, are easy to get in & out. When purchased for reasonable prices (<$10), why not?
CB3
I have a question about glass for the rifles. I just put the scope on my 10/22 rifle and it is shooting low even adjusted all the way up. This also occured when I tried it out on my M14. I have no knowledge or experience with glass and was wondering if this is a common type thing? Do I need to somehow shim the scope or is there some way to make any other adjustments other than by the knobs? It was four or five inches low on the M14 at 25m with no more up adjustment. Close to the same with the 10/22.
What I would do is to center the adjustments on the scope both elevation and windage.
Then work on shimming the bases or rings depending what you are using.
Shim under the rear base or ring to bring the POI up,shim under the front base or ring to bring the POI down.
Empty Soda cans make great shims.
The same thing will work on one piece bases but hurts the total fit of the base to the receiver unless you bed it after finding the correct shims. In this case ,it may be better to shim the scope rings.
There exist scope mounts with built-in height differentials. These are intended primarily for very long range shooters, and given the design requirements, tolerances, excellent quality, and small demand, are not cheap.
There are two possible problems here, assuming that the receiver of the 10-22, and/or the mount are not defective. It's unlikely, but that is a possibility. If the receiver is at fault, then sending it back to Ruger is the best solution, unless you want to shim. That is certainly an option, but there may be other causes.
The first issue is the rings. Mark them (piece of tape) and switch them. Maybe they are out of spec and switching the rings will cure the problem. Up to you (if that's the problem) to decide whether or not to send them back to mfr for replacement. There are refinements on this procedure which include not only switching the rings (position fore-and aft) but also reversing each ring.
Next is scope. Begin by mechanically centering the windage and elevation lines.
Turn the adjustment screw until it stops. Don't force it, feel it.
Once you've reached the end of travel in one direction, turn the adjuster screw in the opposite direction, carefully counting/feeling clicks. Once you've reached the other adjustment stop, tally up the number of total clicks, and divide by 2. Reverse direction and click back 1/2 the total # of clicks, and you've mechanically centered that particular scope line. Do the same for the other line.
Now shoot the thing and see how much adjustment you really need. Again, up to you to test the scope mfr's warranty.
Please report back with results/questions. This problem can be solved.
Quote from: Scout on August 18, 2007, 01:47:35 PM
I have a question about glass for the rifles. I just put the scope on my 10/22 rifle and it is shooting low even adjusted all the way up. This also occured when I tried it out on my M14. I have no knowledge or experience with glass and was wondering if this is a common type thing? Do I need to somehow shim the scope or is there some way to make any other adjustments other than by the knobs? It was four or five inches low on the M14 at 25m with no more up adjustment. Close to the same with the 10/22.
Scout, in your situation, I'd wait and try the scope Fred has for you to use.
Normally speaking, you can shim the mounts, this is normally done with 2 base systems on a bolt gun.
But, since this scope is extremely low on 2 totally different rifles, I'd say replace the scope. Scopes are cheap enough that you don't have to fiddle with them, if the rifle and mount are OK. 30 years ago, I'd tell you to shim the mount. Why the difference? Scopes haven't gone up much in proce over the years, with a few exceptions.
Started my LTR projects yesterday when I picked up THREE 10/22s. I got two used Carbines dirt cheap and then a new 10/22-T for a pretty fair price. The Carbines will be loaners, but the Target model is for me; I like the weight and longer barrel.
I send Nickel a PM about getting some Tech Sights for the three (website says they're sold out at the moment) and about the trigger and bolt modification for the Carbines. I'm probably going to splurge and get a KID trigger kit for the Target; it's going to be my baby. Hopefully all three will be ready with time to spare for Jericho.
-TD
A few other sight options for 10/22
http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe/browse?TabID=9&Categoryid=17421&categorystring=10636***10560***9142***11647***
I have the Eagle Zephyr and they're not bad for what they are. The Williams sights have been around forever and I have several sets on various pieces I own.
That said I really want to get a set of Tech Sights
Just picked up a used 10/22 for my nephew tonight for $125. Shoots nice, too - better trigger than mine! Speaking of which, I had to replace the firing pin. After 26 years, it lost .006" in length and was nicely peened at the end. Guess I put a few rounds through it. ;D
Did I read somewhere that Grin Reaper is doing a Tech Sights buy? I need a set for the new rifle.
I sent Grin Reaper a PM yesterday or the day before, but haven't heard back yet. I'm in for 3 sets of sights, so let me know if anyone hears before I do.
Amazing at the differences between trigger pulls of 10/22's. Some good,some bad and some terrible.
I have one terrible one and decided to put a Volquartsen hammer in it. Before it was very heavy(enough to make you quiver) and now it is too light.
All I put in it was the hammer and shims and not the return spring.
Now you have almost no feel between the slack and the actual pull.
I guess now I will go back to the original hammer and do a little polish on it.
If I may point out, the object is to make the trigger pull like that of a good trigger pull on an MBR, not to make it like that of a match rifle.
For training purposes, the trigger pull should ideally replicate that on your MBRs. Hopefully you have had the triggers on your MBRs worked on and altered appropriately (if not, then why not?).
I don't mean Match triggers either, as such can be not only unsafe in the field, but tactically unwise as in NDs at the worst moment.
Quote from: dwarven1 on August 20, 2007, 11:29:42 PMDid I read somewhere that Grin Reaper is doing a Tech Sights buy? I need a set for the new rifle.
Actually, on reconsideration, I've got a Weaver V7 coming to me from an eBay purchase (I guess scopes aren't "necessary to firing a shot" ::)) so I may just pull the sights from MY 10/22 and put them on Ben's. That gives me lead time to purchase another set if I decide I want them.
Has anyone tried 'Uncle Mikes Mil-Spec Swivel Set'
http://triadtactical.com/?mainURL=%2Fstore%2Fitem%2Fpte9%2FTactical_Intervention_Specialists%2FUncle_Mikes_Mil-Spec_Swivel_Set.html%3Fitem_id%3Dpte9
The QD's on my Hogue Overmolded stock are too small for a GI sling
WTR, check the bottom of page 6. 8)
(Yeah, I had to dig for it, and I'm the one that posted it.)
That stuff I posted there I have used, except for the optional stuff. It works (ask Dwarven1, blueskys and smallz, they've used the same rifles.) The swivels listed are 1 1/4 inch, NOT 1 inch. They are Uncle Mike's and the right size.
I'm probably going to redo that post as a separate thread, sticky it and lock it. If I do, I'll add the extra reference info people have submitted.
I suggest under the accessories you add some snap-caps for ball & dummy drills. I prefer the Pachmayr orange polymer ones as they will feed through the magazines with no problems. Load the mag, cycle the bolt......maybe a ball, maybe a dummy. The shooter won't know until he pulls the trigger.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eshoppingcart.exe/quickcat?SaleItemID=521044
Nickle, I just cross-posted the link to this thread, and in particular, the post about what parts you used, to www.northeastshooters.com. We've got a couple of active threads there on Appleseed shoots. Looks like there are a few new Appleseeders in the making there... Chris and I are "keepin' up the skeer". Well, we're trying to encourage folks, anyway.
Check this out - the Mauser / Enfield equivalent to Tech-Sights
http://www.mojosights.com/#
now I'm really itching to drop a few coins on an Ishapore Enfield
ack help me
:o
Do they make that Ishy in an equivalent to a #4 Mk 1 SMLE? That would be one with a rear peep already.
Quote from: Nickle on August 31, 2007, 03:48:16 PM
Do they make that Ishy in an equivalent to a #4 Mk 1 SMLE? That would be one with a rear peep already.
all the Ishy's I've seen are open rear, but I'm no expert in Enfield rifles- brother out law is tempting me to buy one with him this weekend - Rifle at 150 clams, say 70 clams for the sight by the time shipping is added - prolly what $40 for a second mag
Quote from: wtr100 on August 31, 2007, 04:04:24 PM
Quote from: Nickle on August 31, 2007, 03:48:16 PM
Do they make that Ishy in an equivalent to a #4 Mk 1 SMLE? That would be one with a rear peep already.
all the Ishy's I've seen are open rear, but I'm no expert in Enfield rifles- brother out law is tempting me to buy one with him this weekend - Rifle at 150 clams, say 70 clams for the sight by the time shipping is added - prolly what $40 for a second mag
I don't know. I can buy a few Mosins for that pile of money, and
C H E A P 7.62x54R ammo is EASY to find.
My thoughts exactly. And I did put the MOJO sights on one already. Although, it shoots better standing than prone due to the awkward stock and straight bolt configuration. But, I like a challenge. Especially at $.10/bullet.
Quote from: Nickle on August 31, 2007, 08:30:23 PM
Quote from: wtr100 on August 31, 2007, 04:04:24 PM
Quote from: Nickle on August 31, 2007, 03:48:16 PM
Do they make that Ishy in an equivalent to a #4 Mk 1 SMLE? That would be one with a rear peep already.
all the Ishy's I've seen are open rear, but I'm no expert in Enfield rifles- brother out law is tempting me to buy one with him this weekend - Rifle at 150 clams, say 70 clams for the sight by the time shipping is added - prolly what $40 for a second mag
I don't know. I can buy a few Mosins for that pile of money, and C H E A P 7.62x54R ammo is EASY to find.
but I don't LIKE Mosins ;D
actually ANY new shoot'n irons brought home might cause me to er ah dissappear
actually ANY new shoot'n irons brought home might cause me to er ah dissappear
You just need to be good at sneaking them into the garage/shed/ office and then they just show up...Oh I've had this forever just don't mess with it much.LOL
Quote from: wtr100 on August 31, 2007, 04:04:24 PM
Quote from: Nickle on August 31, 2007, 03:48:16 PM
Do they make that Ishy in an equivalent to a #4 Mk 1 SMLE? That would be one with a rear peep already.
all the Ishy's I've seen are open rear, but I'm no expert in Enfield rifles- brother out law is tempting me to buy one with him this weekend - Rifle at 150 clams, say 70 clams for the sight by the time shipping is added - prolly what $40 for a second mag
My "main" rifle is a no4 mk1 (with the sweetest trigger). Its mil stock except for a gold bead topped front sight and a recoil pad on the butt. The but was chewed up, so I ordered another through Springer Sporters and brass butt plate. I like the recoil pad, so it stays on the chewed up stock.
You shouldn't be paying more than $20 for a second magazine. Plus, you don't have to change mags, you just use five round stripper clips to load from the top. I'm far from a mad minute, but I can get 20 rounds on a B-32 target at 100 yards in under one minute. And this is a "lefty" shooter shooting right handed, cause I love this rife so.
Musket
I like to change mags when using my SMLE's...I mean, they are detachable magazine rifles, even if they were intended to be used with stripper clips.
As fast as one can shoot 20 rounds using five round stippers, I'm thinking one could do it a bit faster with just one magazine change....if for any reason faster is better, which is not always the case.
Just a thought. If I were going up against the Redcoats with a SMLE, I'd want five or six loaded magazines, in addition to a couple of bandoliers of ammo in five round charger clips.
klick
Quote from: colonial shooter on September 01, 2007, 09:11:45 AM
actually ANY new shoot'n irons brought home might cause me to er ah dissappear
You just need to be good at sneaking them into the garage/shed/ office and then they just show up...Oh I've had this forever just don't mess with it much.LOL
Both of you have the wrong "Signifcant Other".
Some of us can't hide it, as she is there when we get them.
Of course, we don't have the same problems you guys do.
She just takes a liking to the new gun, and so be it.
As to the strippers vs mags on the SMLE, ask yourself if it's faster to do 1 stripper vs a mag change.
I see everyone's point, but I'll let you guys back out of the stripper vs mag change if I see you in IN in Oct! LOL
In a more "modern" rifle, I'll take a mag change. But in the SMLE, its almost a two handed operation. The mag release is in side the trigger guard. And the guidegroove for the mag is a hit or miss and is harder than a blind AK mag change IMHO. Plus the SMLE's mag weigh about three pounds each! Not really, but pretty close.
Anyways, my LTR is coming along. I went with the WILLIAMS GUIDE SERIES peep, cause it was in stock at the time. One thing I will say about the 10/22, its trigger and overall quaility has gotten better since the last time (ten years ago) I picked up a new one.
Musket
Anybody got any updates how the 2nd group buy is coming along?
Ax
Ax, I'm awaiting payment from a few people, most of whom have had the goos graces to respond to this thread and their pm's.
Most, but not all.
I'll be emailing a deadline to them today.
Grin, let me know if someone backs out; I'll pay for a set that no one claims.
I made a horrible mistake over the weekend... I gave my nephew an LTR for his birthday. His fiancee looks at Uncle Ross (that's me) and in a hurt tone says "I'm 21, too!!"
So I'll need at least one set. (I've got a feeling that I'll be building two more over the next 6 months or so, too... ::) )Sometimes I really like being the crazy uncle in the family. ;D
GR
Ditto on the TECH SIGHTs if anyone backs out. I would like to have a set on my current LTR, but I could never find them in stock.
And like dwarven1, I think most of family is going to want one each!
Musket
[/quote]
You shouldn't be paying more than $20 for a second magazine.
[/quote]
I don't have any experience with the stripper clips on the Enfield 2A, but regarding the magazines I have to say that the ones that were available when I purchased my 2A were in the $40 range. I declined to purchase any extras, but since then have found a couple sources for less than $20. There is a slight difference, however- the original magazine holds 12 rounds, while the spares I bought are 10 round.
I cleaned mine up this past weekend, and put a few rounds through it. At 25 meters, the first shot took out the soup can I was aiming at, so I was content. I will need to clean the black paint off the rear sight, as it is painted in place, so can't be adjusted.
And, the peep sights look appetizing... I think the budget will have cause a delay, however.
I also took apart and cleaned up a MN M44 this past weekend. I didn't fire that one, but it does look better without the cosmoline.
try www.ssporters.com. They have alot of Enfield parts.
I have a back sight for your carbine. Its made for the Enfield, surplus, adn its for out to 700yards. The one I got on my #4 is for 1200 yards. Its calibrated for the 303 and the military front sight. If yo want it, Its $25 shipping included. That's what I paid for it, and its in great shape.
Musket
[mysterious voice] Dwarven1 & Musketball, remind me in a week or 2 if you want TechSights; I might have a new deal negotiated by then... Bwah, hah, hah, hah! [mysterious voice/]
GR
Do you have any insight on the timeframe of the newer models of Tech Sights might come out? The ones for other makes of rifels?
Musket
No. That's a mystery, even to me.
I would also like to be kept informed of any new deals. Or, if they are posted in this thread, I do have it set to notify me.
Thanks!
How about we start a 'group buy's" topic and then sticky it with a 'go to' guy for it?
Ax
Well, thus far we only have one Group Buy item, but if we get another one or 2, we could consider a Group Buy subforum.
Quote from: Grin Reaper on September 08, 2007, 10:55:49 AM
Well, thus far we only have one Group Buy item, but if we get another one or 2, we could consider a Group Buy subforum.
How about some suggestions of what to get on a Group Buy from all of you?
I buy wholesale anyways, so I can help with some of these buys. I'll say right up front that I don't want to head any up, but, I can help get reasonable prices arranged.
My first suggestion would be to get a group buy on CCI .22 LR ammo. Plated bullet/no HP but just plain RN. Can't find in my area.
They work great in .22's and in conversion kits for AR's, 1911's and Glocks.
I have never had a mis-fire with them as I have with Rem., Federal and Win. bulk boxes.
Second, Ruger 10/22 mags.
Third, Butler Creek 10 rd. Steel lip mags.
Well, we'll see what the interest is going to be for that ammo before we move on that one.
Ken, you want to head up a magazine group buy? We can do both Ruger and Butler Creek at the same time, if you want.
how about the cmp .22 ammo?
they say it shoots well at about half the price of mini-mag solid.
maybe an ammo run to the cmp store by someone?
This is what mine likes best:
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=866708&t=11082005
Now you've done it! I had to start saving pennies to modify my 10/22 carbine into a Liberty Training Rifle ;D
Only ammo mine likes is CCI mini mag. Still cheaper than .223 though.
Quote from: wcmartin1 on September 08, 2007, 07:26:04 PM
This is what mine likes best:
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=866708&t=11082005
I can't get you enough break on that to justify shipping it twice.
Also, your price and my price on 5000 rounds of it is the same. $162.99
Funny that it's cheaper for me to buy 10 of the 500 pack, than a single 10 pack of 500's.
Nickle, PM sent.
Musket
Don't use this stuff so I can't say the prices are good or not. Since some folks are interested in this stuff, here's a source for some of the 10/22 accessories
http://stores.ebay.com/Hornet-Products-Ruger1022SuperStore_Ruger-10-22-Parts-Accessories_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfsubZ2QQftidZ2QQtZkm
I've bought two sets of this seller's 10/22 pack. I think its about all you need.
http://cgi.ebay.com/RUGER-10-22-BLUE-MAX-3-PC-COMBO-KIT-3-FAVORITES-SALE_W0QQitemZ200155265580QQihZ010QQcategoryZ73952QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Musket
Quote from: Musketball on September 22, 2007, 10:02:40 AM
I've bought two sets of this seller's 10/22 pack. I think its about all you need.
http://cgi.ebay.com/RUGER-10-22-BLUE-MAX-3-PC-COMBO-KIT-3-FAVORITES-SALE_W0QQitemZ200155265580QQihZ010QQcategoryZ73952QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Musket
I agree on adding a recoil buffer. I think it should be added to Nickle's original accessory list.
Look at this. I'd rather have the peep sight back on the back of the receiver. I'm not sure how well it would work that far from your eye. Don't believe it'll be competition for the Tech Sights, but its interesting that others are seeing a "need" for a rear peep sight. This one would be quick and easy to install.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Ruger-10-22-or-96-Rear-Aperture-Peep-Sight-Blade-New_W0QQitemZ190139488733QQihZ009QQcategoryZ383QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
budro
QuoteI agree on adding a recoil buffer. I think it should be added to Nickle's original accessory list.
I will add this to the LTR thread I have been working on. I really like the buffer addition to my LTR as well. I am going to add them to my M1A, SIG and others I really like as well.
Ax
Tell you how cheap I am......I wanted to see if a buffer really works, so I got a nylon bolt from Ace to see. After a little fitting and cutting, I have a nice $0.33 buffer that I use for a back up.
They are amust for your 10/22.
Musket
Quote from: M1A4ME on September 23, 2007, 06:51:20 PM
Look at this. I'd rather have the peep sight back on the back of the receiver. I'm not sure how well it would work that far from your eye. Don't believe it'll be competition for the Tech Sights, but its interesting that others are seeing a "need" for a rear peep sight. This one would be quick and easy to install.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Ruger-10-22-or-96-Rear-Aperture-Peep-Sight-Blade-New_W0QQitemZ190139488733QQihZ009QQcategoryZ383QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
That is a pretty good product. Its like a MoJo rear sight. Not a true peep, but better than the stock sight.
I've used a "stock" 10/22 (might be the only one in the world) with the stock sights, and after you adjust it, they are good enough for out to 30 yards. So ths is a good option, especially for a back up for scope or reddots.
I'm getting one this week, should let you know how it "runs" in a week.
Musket
The buffer is nice if for no other reason but to quiet the action a bit. It removes a lot of the metal-on-metal "clack-clack-clack".
Tech-Sites:
For those of you who want their peeps but feel they're losing the ability to scope their 10/22 (a fine -and fun- rifle to scope)... a few months ago I had suggested to the folks at Tech-Sites that they create a site with an integrated Weaver or Picatinny rail. I got a response back - they're already on it. I was told that they're hoping to have one ready for December.
Tony
I just updated the LTR thread on the last question about 'special mods for my wal mart 10/22'? I put a recommendation for the recoil buffer on there. I also put a special note about using a little 'Rem oil' to get the thing installed. It's a rought spot when it's dry.
Quote from: Santander on September 23, 2007, 11:15:40 PM
site with an integrated Weaver or Picatinny rail. I got a response back - they're already on it. I was told that they're hoping to have one ready for December.
Oh, man... and I need to get an LTR done for Christmas for someone. Hope that they're serious about that date. I'll have to contact them about it...
I try to keep add ons limited. But I do consider a buffer a needed add on. It quiets the clank and softens the felt hit of the bolt on the bolt pin. If not a buffer, I found a cheek pad helps out also, almost to the same effect.
Musket
Quote from: Musketball on September 23, 2007, 10:53:47 PM
Tell you how cheap I am......I wanted to see if a buffer really works, so I got a nylon bolt from Ace to see. After a little fitting and cutting, I have a nice $0.33 buffer that I use for a back up.
Musket, How did you do this - drill it out and fit it over the already existing pin, or cut off the threads and just slip it in in place of the existing pin? Pics?
Quote from: Musketball on September 22, 2007, 10:02:40 AM
I've bought two sets of this seller's 10/22 pack. I think its about all you need.
http://cgi.ebay.com/RUGER-10-22-BLUE-MAX-3-PC-COMBO-KIT-3-FAVORITES-SALE_W0QQitemZ200155265580QQihZ010QQcategoryZ73952QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Musket
Took your advice. Got two of his kits in the mail yesterday (fast shipping!) and installed them on the two LTR's last night. Added sling swivel to the one that needed it. Now just need some Tech Sights... saving the pennies and nickels. But, measurable progress in reasonable time.
checksix
The seller had a neat looking flex rod for cleaning as well, I ordered one to see how its goign to hold up. I like the idea of using regular attachments like a stiff cleaning rod.
My peep sight is on the way, should be here the begining of the week.
Musket
I will tell you that an Otis cleaning kit for the AR/M16 doesn't work well in a 10/22. The patch/brush end is too long. I found out last weekend, the hard way, and had to remove the bolt to clean the rifle.
I've had problems with 22 cal centerfire cleaning equipment in 22 rimfire bores also.
Musket
Yup, have a kit for the centerfire and a separate kit for the rimfire. I do find that the Boresnake in .22 cal works equally fine in either.
checksix
you know, as this thread grows I find more and more things I can add (and keep adding ) the the 10/22 thread about 'ive got my rifle now what?". I think I will add another sentence or 2 to the cleaning question about the boresnake and the non-conforming .22 cleaning rods. I myself have had issues with the store bought rods. I now pour some Hoppe's in the barrel, plug both ends with old used ear plugs, and let it soak about 20 mins then run patches, then the boresnake. Finally just a dab of oil.
Ax
QuoteI now pour some Hoppe's in the barrel, plug both ends with old used ear plugs, and let it soak about 20 mins then run patches, then the boresnake.
Earplugs! I love it!
Y'all CLEAN your rifles?
Quote from: Junior Birdman on September 30, 2007, 08:53:28 AM
Y'all CLEAN your rifles?
LOL!
I know you're joking JB(at least I hope so :o), but seriously though, the majority(probably 90%) of problems that come into Gunsmith shops is because the owner did not clean their weapon. I've cleaned out DECADES of grass bits, spiderwebs and crud to find out the problem was a dirty firearm. Please clean your rifles, at least the action, they'll last longer. ;D
.22's are kind of funny. I don't know that you'd see an issue with it being "too" dirty till it stopped working all the time. Most folks never clean the action of a .22, only the barrel (if that) and wipe off the outside with an oily rag. Most .22's don't "field strip" as easy as a military style rifle and so are even harder to clean well inside. Of course most folks won't shoot their .22's as much in several years as one gets shot at an Appleseed.
Cleaning is a good thing. Gives you the opportunity to remove crud that will eventually result in misfires, misfeeds, failures to extract. Gives you the opportunity to examine internal parts for wear. Gives you a chance to properly lube those same internal parts. Reduces the frustration factor when you need it to go bang and it won't.
On the other hand too much cleaning can be a bad thing due to increased wear (from disassembly and improper cleaning) so do it right. Using the newly formed observational powers/thinking processes of a rifleman (as you awaken and learn to be one) notice at different round counts and for different ammo types just how dirty your rifle is. The break it down, clean and lube as required to keep it functioning correctly and shooting true.
Quote from: Junior Birdman on September 30, 2007, 08:53:28 AM
Y'all CLEAN your rifles?
Nope, I don't. I've got a couple of tools for that job. They're called "Grandsons" (girlfriend's grandsons, 12 and 14), and that's how they repay the two of us for using the rifles, plus free ammo. The older one os pretty good at it. He can pretty much tear down any simple rifle and clean it right.
I'm tempted to get them t-shirts that say "Will work for Ammo".
Quote from: Muddogg on September 30, 2007, 01:40:49 PMthe majority(probably 90%) of problems that come into Gunsmith shops is because the owner did not clean their weapon. I've cleaned out DECADES of grass bits, spiderwebs and crud to find out the problem was a dirty firearm.
My nephew's LTR came, used, from a gunshop, and I was absolutely amazed to see how much CRUD was built up in the action... and even more amazed when I remembered that it fired absolutely flawlessly when I test-fired it BEFORE the cleaning.
Needless to say, I've impressed on him that he will keep his rifle clean. ;D
I had a similar experience - I bought a 10/22 that dated back to the early 1970s for something like $90. I was amazed that it was in such good condition: the stock was pristine, the barrel was clean, and the chamber only had superficial scratches. So I took it out to the range and put about 100 rounds through it, and while the trigger was a little rough, the rifle functioned flawlessly. Then I took it home and took out the trigger assembly, and it was so RAUNCHY I don't think it had EVER been cleaned. I haven't tried cleaning it yet, but I honestly don't know if it can be cleaned, or if I'd want to use that trigger assembly again. I have an extra trigger assembly from a 10/22-T (the rifle now has a KID kit in it), so I think I'm just going to use that assembly instead.
two words - brake cleaner
remove the trigger housing from the action and spray the crud out with the brake cleaner, then spray it with some rem oil for lub & rust prevention
Quote from: M1A4ME on October 02, 2007, 06:41:53 PM
two words - brake cleaner
remove the trigger housing from the action and spray the crud out with the brake cleaner, then spray it with some rem oil for lub & rust prevention
^thats my new method.
Prior to that I just didnt clean my 10/22. I know it had well over 10k rounds without cleaning and it never stopped running with factory mags.
Quote from: Junior Birdman on September 30, 2007, 08:53:28 AM
Y'all CLEAN your rifles?
I have to. My wife won't do it for me...............
Gloom............. despair................ poor me................
Quote from: TonyDedo on October 02, 2007, 06:30:11 PM
I had a similar experience - I bought a 10/22 that dated back to the early 1970s for something like $90. I was amazed that it was in such good condition: the stock was pristine, the barrel was clean, and the chamber only had superficial scratches. So I took it out to the range and put about 100 rounds through it, and while the trigger was a little rough, the rifle functioned flawlessly. Then I took it home and took out the trigger assembly, and it was so RAUNCHY I don't think it had EVER been cleaned. I haven't tried cleaning it yet, but I honestly don't know if it can be cleaned, or if I'd want to use that trigger assembly again. I have an extra trigger assembly from a 10/22-T (the rifle now has a KID kit in it), so I think I'm just going to use that assembly instead.
When I do a detail clean (complete disassembly) I dump all the parts in a Wal-Mart plastic pan, spray with simple green, let soak for 15 minutes, brush with a toothbrush (the gun clean type) rinse with water, dry on a paper towel, and the parts are "squeaky" clean. When dry I spray with Break Free let set a few minutes, wipe dry with soft cloth and reassemble.
I do the same thing with 10/22 magazines.
Tony (and M1A4ME) - don't bother with the brake cleaner. It doesn't work for crap. Instead, get a can of GunScrubber (gun stores, Walmart) - this stuff is so far ahead of brake cleaner it's not funny. It will take all that gunk right out. I love that stuff; it's great.
Anyone want a half a can of brake cleaner? 'Cause I sure won't be using it on my guns. I only bought it because I couldn't find a gunstore in NJ when I needed to get my nephew's gun clean. Bleah.
Can any one walk me through sighting in my 10/22 at 25yrds with the tech sights (TSR200)
1. Where do I position my front sight to start?
2. Now what?
I've read the posts on the sighting in the AR platform, doesn't seem relevant to me.... but I'm easily confused.
This is for my upcoming Appleseed shoot
Thanks
2
1.
Quote from: wkt60 on October 03, 2007, 06:16:06 PM
Can any one walk me through sighting in my 10/22 at 25yrds with the tech sights (TSR200)
1. Where do I position my front sight to start?
2. Now what?
I've read the posts on the sighting in the AR platform, doesn't seem relevant to me.... but I'm easily confused.
This is for my upcoming Appleseed shoot
Thanks
After you've installed the TS100 sights, check the rear aperture and adjust if necessary so that it is centered between the 'ears" on either side. Crank it all the way in one direction, and then crank it in reverse, counting clicks as you go. Divide the total number of clicks by 2 and go back again that number of clicks.
Flip the rear Peep assy until "0-2" shows up below the peep, and you can see the "0-2" from your normal shooting position. The TS200 has but one aperture, so forget this part for now and read on.
Now, just go to the range and shoot it off a bench. Use a BIG target because the bullet strike could be a ways off.
Let's agree to adjust the rear sight first. Once that's out of the way, we'll adjust the front sight. Keeps things less confusing that way
As mentioned in the instructions, the adjustments are approx 1/8" @ 20 yd. If the bullet's Point of Impact (POI) on the target is to the left of the point you aimed at (Point of Aim (POI)), adjust the rear sight the appropriate amount to the right. If bullet hits to the right, move the rear sight to the left. IOW, move the rear sight in the SAME direction you want the bullet to move. The adjustment on your model of Tech sight rear sight only moves the rear peep from side-to-side; that's called a windage adjustment. Advanced shooters sometimes move the rear sight to accomodate a blowing wind, hence the name windage. There's no vertical (elevation) adjustment on your model of rear Tech sight. We'll do that with the front sight which does have a vertical (elevation) adjustment.
The amount elevation adjustment on the front sight is still about 1/8" @ 20 yds, but the way you move the front sight is different from the way you moved the rear sight.
Remember how we said that when adjusting the rear sight you moved the rear sight in the direction you wanted the bullet to go? That's true of every rear sight, and true for rear sight windage and elevation, too, if it has one or both adjustments.
Your front sight is moved Opposite to the direction you want the bullet to go. If your bullet's POI (Point of Impact) is too high in relation to where you were aiming (Point Of Aim), and you want to move the bullet down, then you will adjust the front sight higher (move the post UP). If you want to raise the POI, then LOWER the post.
I know this may be a little confusing at first, but there's a way to see this happening. Go to the range and point the rifle at the target. Sight in on the target. Now, imagine your front sight has a post twice as high as it really does. Move the muzzle down to simulate this. See how the muzzle is pointing downwards from where it was? If you raised your front sight post to twice its' normal height the effect would be the same, and you would have moved the bullets' POI down. Now, imagine the post is half its' real height. Move the muzzle up the correct amount. Pointing up from where it was at first, right? Bullets' POI would be higher, too.
For the TS200 sights, do the same, but Center the rear peep both horizontally (windage) and vertically (elevation) before starting the sighting-in process. Crank it all the way in one direction, and then crank it in reverse, counting clicks as you go. Divide the total number of clicks by 2 and go back again that number of clicks. Do this for both the elevation and windage adjustments on the TS200. Should be pretty close to being centered.
Adjust the rear peep to get the correct windage on the target, and with the rear peep in the middle of its' vertical travel (elevation), adjust the front sight for elevation.
Front sight: move post in opposite direction to desired change in bullets' Point of Impact. Post up, bullet down. Post down, bullet up.
Rear sight: move peep in same direction as desired change in bullets' Point of Impact. Sight left, bullet left. Sight right, bullet right. For the TS200 with an elevation-adjustable rear peep, it's the same principle: Rear peep up, bullet up. Rear peep down, bullet down.
I've deliberately left out a few points that an advanced shooter might find interesting to know. Once you've got your sight squared away and are shooting good groups, we can revisit the topic if you like.
Good luck, and report back on how you did.
well posted, I am going to add this to the LTR thread I am (continuosly) working now.
If you don't mind Raf, I amy just almost copy and paste....
Go back and read his post again, he said he had a TRS200 which does have Elevation in the rear sight and not the flip aperture.
The TRS100 has the dual aperture. ;D
Quote from: ken grant on October 03, 2007, 11:24:51 PM
Go back and read his post again, he said he had a TRS200 which does have Elevation in the rear sight and not the flip aperture.
The TRS100 has the dual aperture. ;D
You're right. My error. I revised to suit.
I positioned the front sight base nearly flush with the base because I didn't like the way it was a bit sloppy against the spring pressure. It seemed more stable down low like that. The rear sight adjusts as noted, but the instructions were WAY off as far as clicks per MOA. On the Wal Mart special, (22" bbl), I found that each click of rear sight windage or elevation was equal to 0.8 MOA. I supose it is slightly more for the carbine length barrel, possibly nearer to 1 MOA. Anybody ever actually shoot a "box" with a carbine to see what it was? JB
I was going to go out today to get my LTR foundation. Dick's Sporting Goods has a fluted barrel model in a wood stock, or a stainless model in a synthetic stock. No matter which way I go, it's getting dropped into a Tapco T6 anyway so the stock doesn't matter.
Between those two barrels, what would you pick and why?
I have a direction change in the LTR thread.
This for my LTR 'Okay got my rifle now what' FAQ I'm writing. I noticed there is a lot of discussion on mimicing the M1A and Garand. But there is not a whole lot of discussion about mimicing the AR15. I myself am interested in that b/c I am myself purchasing another LTR to be 10/22. I plan on mimicing the AR15 platform. I don't have a AR15 and won't for a long time. But, many people do and I thought (as I plan on attending many shoots to come and also head down the instructors path) that I needed to have a AR15 mimicing LTR on head and experience with it for JUST the purpose of Appleseeds as well as general knowledge.
Can you all....
list good AR15 LTR stocks from different brands you have had experience with
length of pulls--- is adjustable stocks the way to go?
is the weight comparable? what did you do the mimic it?
sling issues.. what sling can be purchased to be close to the mil surp sling?
ideas that brought down the same path?
Ax
There's no question. The Cristie & Cristie "Super Stock" is the hands down winner. It has an adjustable length of pull, pistol grip, acepts USGI slings, and comes in 4 lovely colors! www.1022central.com
You may have seen pics of my LTR on here somewhere sporting one. I took off all that crap on the forstock, (vrtical grip, rails, etc)
If you leave the rail on the underside of the forstock you can mount a QD swivel which instantly becomes an adjustable hand stop. (I'm working on that for mine at present, since the first thing I did was remove the offensive "bling")
The result is a rifle that is near the AR in weight, size, etc, which has the same grip and sights, has lots of aftermarket accesories, cheap, and is shot for a fraction of the price. Mine is a perfect compliment to my AR. JB
PS- Just remembered that you can get it $10 cheaper from Cheaper Than Dirt if you are a buyers club member.
One advantage of the AR platform is the versatility and choice in uppers; I'm leaning toward dedicated upper in 22lr. Have seen a $200 upper made in Czech republic, but all vendors are sold out of it right now... see in Sportsman's Guide. Dedicated uppers range from $200 to $1000.
Cheaper solution is the Ceiner adapter for ~$140. (downside to Ceiner: 22lrs need slower rates of twist for best accuracy; if you have an AR barrel with a 1 in 7 twist, that's twice too fast for 22LR.) If you can bite the cost bullet (ha ha) and spring for an AR right now, that is.
In either case, you have the same sight picture, lower, and very similar weight and balance.
AR modularity is a huge design plus.
Haven't looked at 10/22 stocks to mimic the AR; figured for same $ as a tricked out 1022, can fashion a dedicated upper, supplying my own labor.
If you don't need or want the telescoping stock of the Tapco and/or Christie, consider a Butler Creek folder, preferably in stainless steel.
It is the most robust of all the folders I've seen, and the pistol grip has internal storage for spare parts and other goodies.
The folding portion of the stock is all metal, except for rubber buttpad, as is the entire locking mechanism. It would be very hard to damage or wear out.
The fore-end can be drilled so as to allow the bolting-on of mil-spec rails on sides and/or bottom. The rear sling attachment point will take some fiddlin' on the owner's part, though.
You will want to use a short length of grey closed-cell foam pipe insulation on the metal portion of the stock where your cheek rests. MUCH easier on the cheek in hot and/or cold weather, believe me. Secure it with duct tape.
Get one now before Hillary tries to ban them again and the price (if you can find one) goes through the roof, like it did last go-round.
I have a Winchester 190 22 cal semi-auto, i bought it thirty years ago shot 200 rounds are so and put it in the closet. Purchase date was approxiamtely 1977, winchesters had a good rep then.
Question, can i convert this like the 10-22, or should i find a ruger 10-22. I am really impressed with the stock makeovers , will winchesters convert very easily?
I am mechanically challenged :'( so this is very important .
tyvm in advance WrongWay
WW
I have made several tube fed .22 work for starter Appleseeders. But they have some difficulties to overcome. Mounting the front sling swivel is not as easy on them as 10-22s and the mag change requirement is changed on the line to loading 11 cartridges, firing two, ejecting 1 ( to simulate a mag change and break your POA) and the firing the remaining 8 rounds. This changes the challenge, but does not cheapen it.
190s are 2 piece stocks and I personally don't know of any aftermarket stocks or other supplies for that rifle.
The sights on the 190 are pretty rudimentary and not easily change and noone I know of makes a peep directly for it although there is a manufacturer that makes a generic pep sight that fits on a 22 dovetail, but it sits so high you will have front sight height difficulties and need a taller one that is one the rifle now.
That said, it is an easy thing to mount and scope on the weapon and use that sighting system until you beg, borrow or what ever another platform.
Don't despair. Do what you can, take what you have and the guys at Appleseed will help you out!
I have one of those Winchester 190's myself. Had it for quite some time.
Well, as to doing the LTR modifications, here's a few facts.
You won't need to do the trigger on the 190, because it's already OK from the factory (unlike the 10/22).
You won't need to alter the bolt release, either, as it's already good (unlike the 10/22).
Sights are a whole different story. You could put a decent peep on the back, you'll need to figure out the front sight, though. I suggest a scope, which mine should be wearing before all too long.
The magazine, well, the 190 has a tube mag. Can't do anything there.
Mounting a sling can easily be done. Get a tube sling mount for the front, and a conventional screw type for the rear.
As to the stock, well, you're out of luck there.
But, I don't see a problem with the 10/22 stock, unless you're trying to make it like an AR, which I actually do NOT recommend if you're an AR owner. Why? Get a Ciener for your AR in that case. If you're a FAL owner, then I suggest the 10/22 and a Dragunov type stock.
Now, the bottom line. You say you are mechanically challenged?
Then do the simple version. Get a 10/22, all the parts mentioned in the LTR thread. That would be the extended mag release, bolt release hammer, Tech Sights and sling stuff. Get a local smith to install all of that for you, and forget the stock.
Quote from: WrongWay on October 18, 2007, 05:17:01 PM
I have a Winchester 190 22 cal semi-auto, i bought it thirty years ago shot 200 rounds are so and put it in the closet. Purchase date was approxiamtely 1977, winchesters had a good rep then.
Question, can i convert this like the 10-22, or should i find a ruger 10-22. I am really impressed with the stock makeovers , will winchesters convert very easily?
I am mechanically challenged :'( so this is very important .
tyvm in advance WrongWay
If the thing is 30 years old and practically unused, my suggestion is to keep it as-is. Take it apart, clean it, replace anything it might need, but don't alter it.
If it's well-used, please describe your particular rifle, paying attention to type of magazine and the rear sight.
The 190's are the lower line semi auto (the 290 being the fancy looking rifle). The dovetail in the barrel for the factory rear sight isn't the best place to try to put a peep sight (too far forward). If some outfit makes an adjustable rear peep sight that clamps on the scope dovetail on the receiver it would put the rear sight closer to your eye and increase the sight radius. Not sure what the barrel diameter on the 190 vs. the 10/22 is but some companies make combination front sight (with protective ears for the blade) and flash suppressor that pins on the 10/22 barrel - I have no clue whether or not one would fit a 190 but it might be worth doing some measuring.
Williams makes the sight for it. They isn't a matched pair, you have to figure out what you need for a front sight.
FWIW, I found the factory sights to be less than correct elevation wise in the first place.
Put a scope on that 190, I believe it's a dovetail receiver,
and shoot away. I have one like you don't often use it as
I never had time to put sling swivels on it. I remember it
being a good shooter with about everything you put in it.
Pretty sure it wears an old weaver C-4. ;D
any suggestions about what scope, or maybe i should say what kind of scope?
Also, tyvm, to all who have/or will post?
Check the thread here somewhere about old eyes. Lots of good info on scopes there.
The short part of it is simple. A regular rifle scope, not a small, older .22 scope. And not too much power, either. Anywhere from 2 1/2 X to 4X is plenty. A 2-7X variable would be optimum, as you can crank it down to 2X, and it works.
Most scopes that are designed for 22s will have rings with
clamp on mts that fit the grooved receiver. What Nickle
left out is if you go to 1" tube scope is that the mount must
be the type that fits the smaller 22 base or grooved receiver
and not just Weaver based that is much larger. Yeah bigger
is better, but for 25 meters, most anything will work well. An
expensive do anything might be someone's cup of tea, but
reliable inexpensive stuff for this distance is exceptable for this
type of shooting. If it works well for you, you can always
update it. If not, you don't have a big investment and ya try
something else. Years ago, there seemed not to be an inbet-
ween choice with scopes as it was cheap or expensive. :)
One thing that happened to me several years ago with a 10/22 and standard 22 LR "tip-off" rings is that, although the recoil of a 22 LR is nothing, the cumulative inertia generated by the action and the weight of the scope over time caused my "tip-off" rings to slide forward on the base (yes, they were tight).
I switched to a Weaver-style base and rings. With the grooves cut in the base and the cross-pins on the rings this problem was eliminated. FWIW
Quote from: wcmartin1 on October 20, 2007, 12:30:02 PM
One thing that happened to me several years ago with a 10/22 and standard 22 LR "tip-off" rings is that, although the recoil of a 22 LR is nothing, the cumulative inertia generated by the action and the weight of the scope over time caused my "tip-off" rings to slide forward on the base (yes, they were tight).
I switched to a Weaver-style base and rings. With the grooves cut in the base and the cross-pins on the rings this problem was eliminated. FWIW
A little thread-locking compound (Loc-Tite) applied at the interface of the tip-off groove and the groove in the base of the rings might solve the rings' migration problem. Make sure to de-grease the surfaces first.
Quote from: raf on October 20, 2007, 09:52:13 PM
A little thread-locking compound (Loc-Tite) applied at the interface of the tip-off groove and the groove in the base of the rings might solve the rings' migration problem. Make sure to de-grease the surfaces first.
Maybe so, but I like the Weaver-style base/rings better anyway for this application.
Quote from: wcmartin1 on October 21, 2007, 02:22:10 PM
Quote from: raf on October 20, 2007, 09:52:13 PM
A little thread-locking compound (Loc-Tite) applied at the interface of the tip-off groove and the groove in the base of the rings might solve the rings' migration problem. Make sure to de-grease the surfaces first.
Maybe so, but I like the Weaver-style base/rings better anyway for this application.
Your approach is better, no doubt. Modern Ruger 10-22s come equipped with a Weaver-style rail that can be attached by the owner. I mentioned my alternative for those who might want to try a "poor man's" alternative on their older Ruger OR another rifle whose base may only be available in "tip-off' style. OTOH, if the owner of an older rifle has a Weaver base available, and can afford both the rail and installation, that is surely the way to go. We will know for sure that Ruger has gotten the word on the LTR concept when the scope rails shipped with the 10-22 are Mil-Spec Picatinny style instead of Weaver.
I somehow doubt we will see that. ;)
Anyone thought about the possibility of working with a FFL to purchase a quantity of 10/22s, the requisite parts (tech sights, Tapco stocks, Volquartsen BHO, extended mag release, etc), and crank out a batch of LTRs that could be sold to RWVA participants? I know there would be some logistics issues to overcome (funding the initial purchase, legal compliance for sales, etc.) but I think they would sell, albeit in small quantities. If we could find a way to purchase in a large enough quantity (the parts, at least, if not the rifles themselves), they could be offered "at cost" (+ approx $20 S&H) or nearly so. What a better way to help Patriots get others into shooting than to give them the ability to purchase a simple, cheap, accurate, reliable rifle at the cheapest price possible? Yes, it might cost slightly more than doing it yourself (though not necessarily if you factor in shipping costs for all the various parts), but even if it does cost more, what is your time worth? Instead of turning a stock gun into a "some assembly required" LTR, you can pay a few bucks more to have one shipped right to your local dealer. Yes, this probably means finding a gunsmith (or a good shadetree gunsmith) to do the parts install (but this shouldn't be too hard for anyone who has ever worked on a 10/22), and finding a trustworthy dealer to handle the sales & shipping. All issues above are potential obstacles, but that doesn't necessarily invalidate the concept.
Hope this hasn't been proposed before (not that I care who had the idea, I just don't want to look like an idiot for proposing something that has already been debated and killed), but I haven't been able to completely read all threads on the board so far. It's going to take a while...
It would be nice Madman, and you're not the first to think about it.
Ruger won't touch it with a 10 foot pole, unless a mass merchant or big distributor asks for it.
Most dealers won't do it, too much headache for so little return. Can't say as I knock my brethren in the business, they've got to eat, too.
I know of one FFL that might bite. He's got an LTR already. The same guy that donated 3 10/22's to the Northeast Region for loaner rrifles.
And, you don't need all the stuff mentioned. I did my triggers and bolt release myself, though the trigger isn't for the new or squeamish.
I could come up with an LTR kit, if there was enough demand for it. And yes, I would be willing to sell it at a reasonable price.
Check page 6 for what would be in it. Those prices are retail, and I may have to boost them slightly to cover everything (unless something gives me enough profit to cover shipping plus a few $). You could simply just order the stuff from those 2 sources and be done with it, tough. Cost you less than buying it from me.
I would do it when I get my shop open(I was actually planning on it as a kind of charity), unfortunately that won't be for at least 10 years I estimate.
I just don't have the money, as I will need to repay these student loans and won't have the reputation to get the business I need to start a shop in the first place.
Muddogg, are you willing to do up trigger groups?
Don't need a shop for that. In fact, folks could send you the trigger group and stock, and you could do the work, and all they would have to do is install the parts and the Tech Sights.
As to me doing it, ask me in just over 3 years. I'll be retired from my regular job, and the Army Guard, and working at my own shop, doing repairs and making ammo (and probably doing beaucoup Appleseeds).
Agreed on pretty much all counts, Nickle. I already have a 10/22 and parts will soon be on the way to convert it to a LTR. I'm not thinking so much of myself, or even specific individuals. Mostly I'm thinking of a way to make it easier to get new folks into this. If we invite friends who don't have a rifle, and loan them one of ours for the weekend, chances are they are going to want to get a rifle of their own afterwards. For noob shooters / RiT (Riflemen in Training), dropping $600-$1k for an AR or M1A may be a bigger commitment than they are ready to make, not to mention the rising price of ammo. Likewise, taking on the task of converting a 10/22 to a LTR configuration may be more than a RiT is comfortable with (at first, anyway). OTOH, for $250 - $300, if they could buy a LTR direct from an affiliated FFL, this would hopefully put a gun in their hands at an affordable price, with ammo that is cheap enough to shoot for a month of Sundays. As John Ross once said (paraphrasing loosely), "If you want to learn how to shoot well, buy a .22 rifle and 10,000 rounds of ammo".
I know (purely from reading here) that several group buys have been arranged for 10/22 mags and Tech sights. Granted, they were not at "fire sale" discounts, but the discounts were still enough to make it worthwhile. If we can find a willing dealer and startup funds (even if it's only one rifle at a time), there's bound to be some interest, some response, and some positive outcome. I'm going to ponder this one a bit, and perhaps lean on my local gun trafficker / gunsmith (who attended the Osage Beach Appleseed and is one of the folks who "gets it") to see if he would help in any way.
Quote from: Nickle on October 19, 2007, 10:45:54 AM
Check the thread here somewhere about old eyes. Lots of good info on scopes there.
The short part of it is simple. A regular rifle scope, not a small, older .22 scope. And not too much power, either. Anywhere from 2 1/2 X to 4X is plenty. A 2-7X variable would be optimum, as you can crank it down to 2X, and it works.
You can get a descent scope without spending a fortune.
My latest purchase was a "BSA Sweet 22".
It's clear enough to see your hits and the parallax adjustment feature enables you to get a clear picture down to 10 yards.
(http://www.midwayusa.com/mediasvr.dll/image?saleitemid=764405)
After mounting I found I was too close in the prone position. Solved that problem with an extend scope base (mounts it more forward than is possible with the Ruger mount).
(http://www.midwayusa.com/mediasvr.dll/thumbnail?saleitemid=247211)
Sure helps these 73 year old eyes. Yes I know, some folks think that "Old People" should not be allowed to have guns. Come to think of it, some people think that no one should own guns, (but them of course).
Quote from: Madman on October 25, 2007, 10:54:53 PM
I know (purely from reading here) that several group buys have been arranged for 10/22 mags and Tech sights. Granted, they were not at "fire sale" discounts, but the discounts were still enough to make it worthwhile.
Just so you know, those mags are at wholesale, plus a little for shipping. And I do mean a little. I'm the FFL buyer for them.
You can get one of those BSA's here:
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=944096 (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=944096)
$56.99 plus shipping.
That looks like the perfect scope for this. I'm kinda jealous. Mine was twice the price and doesn't have the target turrets.
That scope is 2-7X, and on 2X would be about perfect.
Now, I'm a fan of old steel tubed Weavers, but I do have a 6-24X BSA Mil-Dot, and for a cheap scope, it isn't all that bad.
One of my LTR's is currently wearing a V8 Weaver, another a T-6 Weaver. I like both of them.
Quote from: Nickle on October 26, 2007, 11:26:36 PM
Now, I'm a fan of old steel tubed Weavers, but I do have a 6-24X BSA Mil-Dot, and for a cheap scope, it isn't all that bad.
Roger that. I have a 8-32x BSA Platinum mil-dot on a Savage heavy-barrell 22-250 (I leave it set at 10x so the mil-dot are correct, though) and it will hit steel at 500 yards consistently. As you said - not bad for a cheap scope.
I did have another BSA (4x16 Contender) on a 30-06 that didn't last, though - too much recoil for it. The factory repaired it and now it sits on my 10/22.
I need to find a range where i can shoot that far
SilverWhiskers Ranting about Cleaning Ruger 10-22's & Mags and other Magazines you can't easily take apart.
Break-Free, Tri-Flow or Tetra Gun will work fine. Some have suggested using spray carborator cleaner. It works fine on blued or stainless guns. Painted finishes or plastic magazines can be another matter. Carborator cleaner is faster. The spray lubes are slower in melting gunk and safer on plastics and paint.
Since this thread is about 10-22's lets use the lubes mentioned above. They will melt gunk if you give them a little while. It helps to use Q-tips intelligently. After you liquify the dirt, carbon and crud, swril around with a Q-tip to loosen the dirt and then all you need to do is spray some more in the rifle or Magazine and the dirty stuff will run out. It may take more than one pass to get it done. Be patient. If you are not patient when cleaning your rifle you probably will not do as good a job as you want to do.
Drilling a drip hole in a magazine sounds OK and probably will not hurt anything. However, why not just turn them right side up for the first wash cycle and upside down for the rinse cycle. Using the dryer is up to you!!! Spray Carborator cleaner works ok on my stock Ruger magazine.
These lubes work the same way in a barrel. Get you favorite barrel squeaky clean and wet it completely with one of these lubes. Wait a week and use a clean patch through it, and out comes more black.
Speaking of cleaning rifle barrels ............ NEVER place it buttstock down and stroke the cleaning rod straight up and down. The buttstocks are cut at an angle. The barrel in most rifles DOES NOT go straight up and down. Some Do go straight but not many. If you forget and stroke the cleaning rod straight up and down it will wear the rifling down at the muzzle crown, just under the front sight. Alway keep your cleaning rod in the middle of the barrel. Notice if your barrel is slanted at an angle because the recoil pad is angled.
When buying a used rifle always look for cleaning rod damage around the barrel crown where the rifling ends, under the front sight. It is the last thing the bullet sees as it leaves the barrel. It isn't a pretty sight if it is rubbed smooth in that one area.. Shooting .22's is a great idea !!!
Silverwhiskers
Here's the LTR I built up three or fours years ago, before it became trendy, and before Tech Sights came out.
1966 10/22, mechanically all stock except for full-floated barrel and a Weaponkraft recoil buffer. I put a real M14 sight up front and an old Redfield peep, found at a gun show, on the rear. It'll put cheap Walmart ammo into about 1/2" at 25 yards, which is way better than I can shoot standing.
I've fired over 25K of .22 this year, 2,000 rounds of it in this rifle (nearly all from standing), much of the rest of it in other "liberty training" rifles and handguns.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/Snake45/102266-1.jpg)
Nice looking .22. To my way of thinking you've done all the mods. you need. If it shoots good with the factory barrel and trigger why replace'em.
Quote from: M1A4ME on November 11, 2007, 08:42:23 AM
If it shoots good with the factory barrel and trigger why replace'em.
Exactly. And if you put aftermarket trigger parts in a 10/22, you'll get a trigger that's much BETTER than you can find on any MBR. That doesn't really do much for your practical skills. Learning to shoot the Ruger factory trigger will make you a better shooter.
Being an older, pre-lawyer gun, the pull on this one isn't too bad--somewhere between 3 and 4 pounds and very crisp. I also have a 1985 10/22 whose trigger is much more military in feel.
In addition to the Tech Sights and the Redfield, the Zephyr (http://www.bosesguns.com/product_p/eag2206.htm) is another aperture sight option for the 10/22 -- I haven't had any occasion to use them, yet, so can't give any feedback.
Redfield doesn't make peeps anymore AFAIK, but Williams makes at least three different kinds of peeps that are usable on 10/22.
I'm working on another 10/22 LTR, this one an M1 carbine simulator. I've figgered out how to get a real M1 sight on the back, and think I've got how to get a carbine banded front sight on (using only common household hand tools). Yes, I know about the ERMA/Iver Johnson EM-1. Have one and shoot it a lot. WAY fun gun! Mags, if you can find them, are pretty spendy, though. The 10/22 will take common and relatively cheap hicaps (both the BC Steel Lips and the Ramline doublestack are working well for me).
snake 45,
is that a barrel band I see on your rifle?
how do you fully float a barrel with a barrel band on it?
Quote from: jpf on November 12, 2007, 11:50:36 PM
snake 45,
is that a barrel band I see on your rifle?
how do you fully float a barrel with a barrel band on it?
Hog out the stock with a sanding drum on a Dremel.
Then turn the sanding drum on the upper part of the barrel band, where it touches the barrel.
Neither the band nor the stock is touching the barrel, I assure you.
But it's not that big a deal. In my own testing, some 10/22s shoot better floated, some with just the band removed, and some with the band on and in full contact the way the factory shipped it. THIS one happened to shoot better floated, so it's floated.
snake45,
good deal on the floating of the barrel. is that the original stock? it looks much better than mine.
I'm glad to see you here.
I have read much of your work on the testing of .22 ammo and it is some of the best work on the net!
Ah, you must be an RFCer! Thanks for the kind words! :)
No, it's not the original stock. A '66 rifle would have a walnut stock. I bought this gun used about 20 years ago for $100 and it came in a Fed Ord "paratrooper" stock I never liked that much. I bought this stock more recently at a gunshow for $20 painted "tactical" black. I shot it that way for a while and then decided wood is prettier. I stripped it with some spray-on stripper from Walmart, made a few subtle mods, sanded it, stained it with Walmart Minwax Red Mahogany, and finished it with spray matte polyurethane. I actually prefer oil finishes but my experience is that stained birch doesn't do well with an oil finish--when you steel-wool each coat of the oil, you end up removing noticable amounts of the color at the same time.
The gun hasn't been cleaned or received any maintenance other than a wipe-down in over two years and is still running fine. This winter I'll strip it completely down for a good cleaning and lube because next year it's going into "heavy rotation" on my shooting schedule, meaning I plan to put somewhere between 2500 and 5000 rounds through it.
Questions for anybody:
What's the status on Tech Sights? Is there another group buy planned, and when might that happen? If applicable, what do we expect the price to be?
Has anybody used the XS ghost ring rear/stripe up the center, square-post front? How'd ya like it? MidwayUSA has those for 10/22 for about $75 + S&H.
Does anybody bother with the buffer gizzies? If needed at all, is one brand or type better than the others? I've used them with M1911 pistols, but nothing else.
Thanks, as you can see, I'm getting antsy for my Winter 2008 project gun.
Quote from: didactic on November 14, 2007, 12:17:35 AM
Does anybody bother with the buffer gizzies? If needed at all, is one brand or type better than the others? I've used them with M1911 pistols, but nothing else.
It's not really needed--if it were, Ruger would make them standard equipment on 10/22.
All it does is eliminate the metal-on-metal "clack" sound/feel at the end of the bolt travel that some rimfire shooters find annoying. To any regular M14 shooter, the recoil of ANY kind of 10/22 is pretty much beneath notice in the first place.
Also, there have been reports of 10/22 receivers cracking at that pin hole after many, many thousands of rounds of hot loads. The buffer should eliminate the possibility of such damage.
I have a WeaponKraft buffer in one of my 10/22s. It's nice but I don't consider it a MUST-have item.
Quote from: didactic on November 14, 2007, 12:17:35 AM
Questions for anybody:
What's the status on Tech Sights? Is there another group buy planned, and when might that happen? If applicable, what do we expect the price to be?
I believe that there is always a group buy going on... 10 at a time. As soon as 10 sign up, the buy goes and the next buy starts.
Quote
Does anybody bother with the buffer gizzies? If needed at all, is one brand or type better than the others?
It's cheap, and the people over at rimfirecentral seem to like them. One brand does not seem to be better than another. I installed one. It takes about 2 minutes (to get the file apart, install it, put rifle back together).
QuoteI believe that there is always a group buy going on... 10 at a time. As soon as 10 sign up, the buy goes and the next buy starts.
Correct!
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=182.msg1177#msg1177
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/clearance_TAPCO_10_22_T6_Collapsible_Stock_Set.html
(http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/tapstk63160b.jpg)
Quote from: didactic on November 14, 2007, 12:17:35 AM
Questions for anybody:
What's the status on Tech Sights? Is there another group buy planned, and when might that happen? If applicable, what do we expect the price to be?
Has anybody used the XS ghost ring rear/stripe up the center, square-post front? How'd ya like it? MidwayUSA has those for 10/22 for about $75 + S&H.
Does anybody bother with the buffer gizzies? If needed at all, is one brand or type better than the others? I've used them with M1911 pistols, but nothing else.
Thanks, as you can see, I'm getting antsy for my Winter 2008 project gun.
The buffer hurts nothing, is inexpensive, and quiets the action. The repeated slamming of the bolt against the OEM metallic pin can elongate the pin's holes over a looooooooong time. Meanwhile, there is that annoying noise/cheek transmitted sound. I suspect Ruger does not fit them initially because the metal pin is fail-safe, and the buffer should be replaced every so often. Go to rimfirecentral and see what people claim is the best. IIRC in the FAQs is a recipe for a homemade version.
As far as sights, small aperture= good for range use. Large aperture= good for field/night use. Change 'em around for varied training.
I am building an LTR for the Fallon, Nevada shoot in March.
As I can't find a Ruger 10/22 Model RR with the 20 inch barrel, it looks like I will be going with the Walley World Special with the 22 inch tube. The first thing I plan is to totally strip the receiver in and out and refinish with something like Duracoat. I may even do the entire barreled action.
Has anyone done this? Is so, with what coating and what are the "do's" and "don'ts"?
Also, has anyone tried the trigger assemblies from Hornet Products? http://www.hornetproducts.com/bin/category.asp?category=10 (http://www.hornetproducts.com/bin/category.asp?category=10)
For about $90.00 they have a reworked trigger, enhanced bolt release, and extended mag release. (They may also provide a trade-in credit of $30.00 for the swapped out factory assembly which I am confirming). Alternatively, you can send them your factory assembly and they will rework them similarly for $55.00 with a 3 day turnaround.
This appears to be a great deal based on the prices of the separate parts needed. Plus it is completely "drop in" with no smithing or fitting required. The quality looks good based on many positive reviews on RimfireCentral.com. This may be just the ticket for the "standard" or "recommended" LTR package discussed above.
Thoughts? I will be the "tester" if no one else has experience with this set-up.
Dutch
I've been "promising" myself that I would do the same to my 10/22 (strip and paint) but haven't gotten around to it yet. It's a good (fairly) warm winter day project. I did an FAL last year and it looks like a new rifle. Not sure the same stuff will work on the 10/22 but I'm going to try it. Whatever you use you might try testing it on a small piece of metal first. Test both the finish surface and it's resistance to the chemicals you'll be using to clean the rifle. It would be a shame to go to all the trouble to disassemble and strip the rifle and refinish it just to have the bore cleaner or lubricant stain or remove the new finish.
As to the trigger work - lots of folks do it. I haven't seen the need yet on my 10/22. It's purpose is to provide a cheap to operate "clone" of my M1A/M1. As rough as some may find a factory 10/22 trigger it's certainly no harder to use than the big rifle triggers so I've left it alone so it's closer to my big "boys".
I'm not against nice triggers, I know a nice trigger can help you out when firing a rifle. I'll tell you also that I've seen folks shoot very well with rifles that I thought had terrible triggers (talking about you Student). Just be sure the money spent on the trigger work is better than money spent on practice ammo.
Have a good one.
QuoteThoughts? I will be the "tester" if no one else has experience with this set-up.
I have no experience with them, but I'm intruiged...
Quote from: M1A4ME on December 03, 2007, 10:25:37 PM
As to the trigger work - I haven't seen the need yet on my 10/22. It's purpose is to provide a cheap to operate "clone" of my M1A/M1. As rough as some may find a factory 10/22 trigger it's certainly no harder to use than the big rifle triggers so I've left it alone so it's closer to my big "boys".
I'm not against nice triggers, I know a nice trigger can help you out when firing a rifle. I'll tell you also that I've seen folks shoot very well with rifles that I thought had terrible triggers (talking about you Student). Just be sure the money spent on the trigger work is better than money spent on practice ammo.
AB-solutely! These words should be made a sticky to appear at the top of every page of this thread!
I make it a point to shoot a number of different rifles with all kinds of triggers, from sweet to pretty crappy. (Handguns too, for that matter.) This gives me the skill to do fairly well with just about anything I happen to pick up.
M14A4Me and Snake45:
Message received. I will evaluate the trigger when I get the rifle in hand. I certainly see the benefit of having it be similar to that of my M1A. If it's way off I will make the call at that time. I also see that I don't want or need a 10/22 match quality trigger.
What do you think of the enhanced bolt release and extended magazine release upgrades? Nice to have or have to have?
Thanks again.
Dutch
Fixing the bolt and mag releases is pretty much essential.
You don't HAVE to do it, but, you'll wish you had.
As to trigger jobs, folks, if you go that route, don't get carried away. I found my 10/22 triggers to be heavy and rough, so I trimmed down the weight (to 3 1/2 - 4 1/2 pounds) and called it good. They're a long way from perfect, but much better than they were. The object is to duplicate a battle rifle, not be a match gun.
QuoteFixing the bolt and mag releases is pretty much essential.
You don't HAVE to do it, but, you'll wish you had.
+1 to that!
I have extended mag releases on both my 10/22s. Nice to have.
Don't have the bolt stop mod on either and have never missed it, though I might mod the factory part myself next time I have it apart, if the mood strikes me.
The 10 rnd. mags. I bought have a release "button" built into them. I sort of works like an M1A mag. I grab the mag with my trigger hand, push up on the button (on the mag) with the thumb of my trigger hand and pull the magazine out of the rifle. If those mags ever tear up I may install an extended mag. release.
Again, attempting to duplicate the movements required to operate your "big" rifle is part of the idea here so do what you can to duplicate those actions.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=145851&t=11082005
This package was recently on sale for $30.
It not only solves the bolt problem, but much improves the trigger of the 10/22 by replacing the hammer.
The notch in the Volquartsen hammer is smoother than the stock Ruger hammer. Not that you can't modify the stock trigger, but this takes some skill and the new hammer is drop-in. Granted either road requires some gunsmithing skill.
Midway sells another product that replaces both the sear and hammer for $79, but you still have to buy the auto bolt release or manually modify the factory bolt release.
Every type of after market mag release I've installed for the 10/22 has worked fine. Midway sells a $5 plastic release that wokrs as well as the expensive releases.
While I'm typing I'll mention a Hogue rubber overmolded stock for the 10/22 I saw at a gunshow a few weeks ago.
One problem I have with any of the Ruger 10/22 stocks I've got is they are slick. When I'm prone and using the sling I want for a non slippery surface under the stock so my hand won't slide. The rubber stock is great for that, but since I use a scope I need a raised piece for the cheek weld and the rubber type stock didn't have it.
I noticed the fellow beside me at Evansville had some type of anti slip tape under his 10/22. It looked like a 120 grit waterproof sandpaper glued to the stock under the barrel. Some bath tub anti slip tape might work too.
The VQ hammer is all you need to improve the 10/22 trigger. I polished all the parts in mine and installed the hammer. It makes all the difference in the world. I wouldnt recommend spending any more money than that on the trigger unless your building a benchrest gun.
One not: Use the factory springs, not the ones in the VQ kit. You can end up with light strikes or a trigger that doesnt reset with the light springs.
I used the VQ hammer in one of my 10/22 with the Ruger springs. The trigger pull was too light for most shooters including me. You don't have any feel at all.
With the factory hammer in, the pull is too heavy (really heavy)for most shooters including me.
What do I do now?
I bought one of these for my M1 stock. Two little phillips head screws hold it in place (once you figure out exactly where it needs to be for you).
http://cgi.ebay.com/ADVANCED-TECHNOLOGY-UNIVERSAL-CHEEK-REST-FACTORY-NEW_W0QQitemZ220113760647QQihZ012QQcategoryZ73951QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem
Quote from: SGTCap on December 04, 2007, 10:16:34 PM
The VQ hammer is all you need to improve the 10/22 trigger. I polished all the parts in mine and installed the hammer. It makes all the difference in the world.
One note: Use the factory springs, not the ones in the VQ kit. You can end up with light strikes or a trigger that doesnt reset with the light springs.
I originally just replaced the hammer as you suggest, but on my 10/22 the trigger pull still wasn't smooth. Maybe it would have improved with more use, but I did switch the VQ springs and the pull is much better. The pull is light, but no problems so far.
BTW, for a newbie like me, I've found the book "Customize the Ruger 10/22" by James House to be incredibly helpful. I found the instructions of the VQ kit and the instructions for the extended magazine release to be confusing. No matter! I just went through the disassembly and assembly instructions in the book and all went well.
Quote from: ken grant on December 04, 2007, 10:33:39 PM
I used the VQ hammer in one of my 10/22 with the Ruger springs. The trigger pull was too light for most shooters including me. You don't have any feel at all.
With the factory hammer in, the pull is too heavy (really heavy)for most shooters including me.
What do I do now?
Stone the (original) hammer. Should lower the pull to 3-4 lbs instead of 8 (original) or 2.5 (VQ).
I have two 10/22s and have never had the trigger groups apart on either. The 1966 gun, bought used in the '80s, has a delightful trigger--about 4 pounds, and very crisp with little if any felt movement. It's actually better and easier to shoot than any centerfire military rifle I own. My 1985 10/22, bought new, has a pull of maybe 5-6 pounds with a little felt creep. It's just a little bit cleaner than the pull of my Inland M1 carbine. I understand that newer 10/22s have much worse triggers and almost require attention of some kind to shoot well.
I have an Iver Johnson/ERMA EM-1 .22 carbine which is delightful to shoot except for its trigger, which is actually TOO good. It's somewhere around 2 pounds but has about as much movement as the trigger of a Glock pistol--but very smooth. It's a nice trigger to shoot but it feels nothing like my "real" carbine's trigger--or any of my other military rifles.
I also have a Norinco JW-14 whose trigger feels very, very similar to the one in my Polytech M14S--somewhere around 4 pounds with a small amount of smooth movement. I think this rifle is going to get a larger share of my LTR duties next year.
Quote from: rdhood on December 05, 2007, 08:53:47 AM
Quote from: ken grant on December 04, 2007, 10:33:39 PM
I used the VQ hammer in one of my 10/22 with the Ruger springs. The trigger pull was too light for most shooters including me. You don't have any feel at all.
With the factory hammer in, the pull is too heavy (really heavy)for most shooters including me.
What do I do now?
Stone the (original) hammer. Should lower the pull to 3-4 lbs instead of 8 (original) or 2.5 (VQ).
http://smartflix.com/store/video/1291/Ruger-1022-Trigger-Job
Here's a link to the AGI video course you can rent for $10.
Quote from: rdhood on December 05, 2007, 08:53:47 AM
Quote from: ken grant on December 04, 2007, 10:33:39 PM
I used the VQ hammer in one of my 10/22 with the Ruger springs. The trigger pull was too light for most shooters including me. You don't have any feel at all.
With the factory hammer in, the pull is too heavy (really heavy)for most shooters including me.
What do I do now?
Stone the (original) hammer. Should lower the pull to 3-4 lbs instead of 8 (original) or 2.5 (VQ).
Yup, stone the original hammer.
I have altered a few of them already, and have gotten pretty decent results. Didn't exactly stone them, but, I did lighten them up enough.
The problem with the original hammer is the sear angle isn't right. You check my posts in this thread, and you should find the link on how to stone the hammer. It's over at Rimfire Central.
Snake, you just hit on the real problem, and now I understand why you say the original triggers are OK. They are great triggers, if they're older 10/22's. The new ones, well, the triggers just SUCK. So heavy that they cause rifle movement, and they're heavier than ANY of the military rifles I've got (and I've got a bunch of them from 1895 to present). Totally unacceptable for marksmanship.
I'll have to confess I've never shot a 10/22 other than my two, so I really have no idea just how bad the trigger is on the newer ones, other than reading the common complaints at RFC. But you know how some people are, they start asking about what junk and toys and candy they "need" for their new gun before they've even paid it out of layaway so I've perhaps tended to discount much of the talk about the new ones "needing" trigger work. But maybe they really do.
I'm still of the opinon that if you're interested in building skill with a battle rifle, you can have a trigger on a practice rifle that's "too good."
QuoteI'm still of the opinon that if you're interested in building skill with a battle rifle, you can have a trigger on a practice rifle that's "too good."
i agree with that holeheartedly. I have been switching back n forth between my M1A and my LTR the past 2-3 weeks in dry firing. When I go back to the LTR, that tough little trigger has me canting right off the bat! The SA is a 'Loaded', so it is not a NM trigger. But, WHOW, what a world of difference. I get a trigger squeeze lesson all over again when I climb onto the LTR. I think it is good practise for me to just stick with the factory lbs. and let it break rough. So I can practise my 'sighter' shots with every pull of the trigger.
Ax
How-to install TechSights with pics at http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=1453.msg16218#msg16218
I went yesterday to buy my new 10-22. The lady at WallyWorld told me that they don't sell real guns in CA because of all the fruits and nuts( no joke). Said that it was just too dangerous.
I could have told her that liberty is always dangerous, for tyrants. I didn't say any thing, what could she have understand? But it does get you thinking about living in a Free State.
There is an upside, I now know where not to do my shopping.
Serf
Agreed. There is no real response to those who choose to live in ignorance purposely. I live in I.U. town and the people here just want their little utopia of 'academia elites' and nothing more. It is amazing at how these people, in their attempt a pacifism and 'peace', somehow bypass the knowledge that someone (definitely not them--they are above it) had to actually pay the cost of freedom at some point. I guess these individuals think that wars are fought rocks and elegant tongue lashings. ;D
In their attempt at being learned and in the know, they have been swayed by the system into choosing ignorance. A closed mind can hide behind many different faces in many different places.
There is no better way to put it.
Remember, LTR's aren't just for you to practice with and save on your ammo bills -- over the Cjristmas break, take your LTR and a young person (or better yet, a soccer mom) to the range -- win their hearts and minds.
I am going to work on taking my daughter's mom to the range. She seems to be the most opposing force in my gun culture world. Winning the mind in this situation is a must.
I want/need/have been working on educating my own family on their right to defend themselves and the responsibility to do it. Rather than rely on a slothful government and a uninterested man with a radio and a badge.
Appleseed seems to open doors to many discussions.
Product rewiew for Tactical Solutions extended mag release. The cool looking one that wraps around the triggergaurd and almost looks like a Ruger#1 lever.
Don't know if anybody has reported this before.
It works good, to good! One afternoon at the range convinced me just a little finger drag across the back of the trigger gaurd drops your mag very neatly. (Murpy will insist this happens over mud hole) As range was frozen solid today it only happened while feeling for trigger after achiving NPOA.
FOR SALE one Tactical Solutions extended mag release.
Clodhopper
Murphy...pfft. He has had a hand in many of my adventures as well. He is always spot on regarding most of the undertakings that I go through with. Especially with my manual addition of the Tech Sight front sight. He stated I would remove the factory in the wrong direction... of course... I did. Figuring he was right, well, hated to disappoint. Now shooting well, after a serious of 'touch ups'.
ax
At my local gunshop I saw a 10/22 for $129 - had a 5 digit serial number and looked like it'd been around for a while. The flip (rear) sight was marked Lyman, and it was canted to the right. It also looked like the FRONT sight was canted, too... it was a nice price, but I'm just not sure about the sights. I know that the rear will be replaced by a Tech-sight mounted on the reciever, but the front sight worries me. Anyone ever see something like that before? The barrel seemed securely mounted to the receiver, but how could the sights have gotten canted? And is there anything I can do about them without replacing the barrel?
Quote from: dwarven1 on December 24, 2007, 02:20:20 PM
At my local gunshop I saw a 10/22 for $129 - had a 5 digit serial number and looked like it'd been around for a while. The flip (rear) sight was marked Lyman, and it was canted to the right. It also looked like the FRONT sight was canted, too... it was a nice price, but I'm just not sure about the sights. I know that the rear will be replaced by a Tech-sight mounted on the reciever, but the front sight worries me. Anyone ever see something like that before? The barrel seemed securely mounted to the receiver, but how could the sights have gotten canted? And is there anything I can do about them without replacing the barrel?
That is a hella price for a 10/22 in today's market, especially for one that probably has a walnut stock and metal buttplate instead of the birch and plastic of today.
BUY IT NOW--TODAY! Before someone else does!
Don't worry about the sights. When installing the barrel, it's possible to cant it a few degrees in either direction. This is almost certainly the case with yours. It would be 10 minutes work with a common Allen wrench to straighten it up, most likey.
And if not, stock 10/22 barrels are CHEAP. They are so commonly replaced that they're easily found for $20-25. If you ask at rimfirecentral.com, you might be able to find someone who'll be glad to send you a new, unfired factory barrel for the price of shipping. I know at least one guy over there who had so many of the things that he cut some of them up and made wind chimes out of them. True story.
10/22's are easy to tear down. Pull it out of the stock and turn it over. You'll see two small allen head screws that thread into the receiver through a v-block on the bottom of the barrel (one on each side). These clamp the barrel to the receiver. You can remove them and remove the barrel or just loosen them and "twist" the barrel back to where it "looks" right and retighten them.
When I installed my tech sights my rear sight ended up way off to one side. I took the barrel off, cut a half "moon sliver" shim out of soda can and slid it between the barrel and the receiver and then tightened the opposite side screw first to "twist" the barrel even farther to the right. Now my rear side is much closer to the center of the base.
I picked up one of those compact 10/22's that have a stock that is 2" shorter and a 16" barrel.......all the same modifications drop right in place! ;D I had to drill the front of the stock for the sling swivel (better than the barrel band attachment anyway) because there is no barrel band. I took my buddy's 12 year old to the range yesterday and the shorter length of pull and lighter barrel made all the difference!! I recommend one of these for an LTR for our younger Appleseeders!! ;D 8)
Does anyone know if the adjustable stock by Christies(the one with the pistol grip) is Cal. legal? Seems to me that it would be ideal for women and youngsters.
Serf
(1) Am about to "pull the trigger" on a 10/22. "For my son," I'm telling myself (he's just four), but I want to be ready, and I need to break in the rifle, right? ;) I'm very tempted to go with the black synthetic stock and stainless steel version, just since it should last a little better with less need for maintenance, right? Or is it just a wasted $40? Thoughts? Anyone have this model and like it?
(2) With the synthetic stock, any problems with adapting it for the 1 1/4" official GI sling? Will screws hold in the stock ok?
Thanks!
Quote from: tower59 on January 06, 2008, 11:45:04 PM
I'm very tempted to go with the black synthetic stock and stainless steel version, just since it should last a little better with less need for maintenance, right? Or is it just a wasted $40?
Unless you anticipate severe-weather use, or just like the black and silver look, pretty much just wasted $40 IMHO. There's not much to rust on a 10/22. Receiver and trigger housing are alloy, as is the front band; buttplate is plastic. Bolt should be lightly lubed; it's easy to keep the blued steel barrel oiled (it's not gonna rust inside; modern .22 ammo pretty much IS a bore protector) and if it should rust, factory 10/22 takeoff barrels are dirt cheap.
Here's an idea for you: Get the wood stock and saw the butt end off in several 3/4" or 1" slices. Save the pieces. As your kid grows, glue them back on. When you've glued them all back on 10 or 12 years from now, get a replacement factory stock (again, takeoffs are common and cheap--$20-$25). Then saw the slices back off your "growing" stock and you're ready for the grandkids. ;)
Tower, I just picked up a stainless 10/22 - basically, the price was right. ;D I'm planning on keeping that one and giving my niece mine for her birthday (assuming that she finds a place to keep it; my sister is major-league anti-gun). It seems to be a little lighter than my wood-stocked 10/22 simply because the stock is hollowed out. Shoots OK, but I've only test fired it with about 100 rounds or so.
Basically, it comes down to personal preference... are you going to be using this for camping / hunting in ugly weather? Or do you just prefer stainless? Like I said, the only reason I got this is because I happened to fall into it. I'd have been just as happy with a blued/wood version! In fact, I have been... for 26 years! I bought my 10/22 in 1981 - first rifle I ever bought.
ETA... OOPS! I just remembered my niece reads this forum... Oh, well. So much for a surprise. ::)
My 10/22 is having fairly consistent feeding problems, regardless of the mag used. Were it not for that issue, it would be a rifle anyone could make Rifleman with. Typically what appears to happen (though I can't swear this is actually what is happening) is some kind of double feed. What I typically find in there is a round in the chamber that is unfired and a second one trying to feed which jams up the works. Anyone experience this or have a fix idea?
Inspect your extractor. Compare to a brand new extractor, see it's worn or its range of motion is impaired. Is the recess in the barrel into which the extractor is shoved free of grit, carbon, obstructions? Is the rim of the un-extracted casing deformed or ripped out or ridden over by the extractor? Tried brushing your chamber out with a bronze brush? Broken extractor spring, or binding of extractor mechanism? Improper angle ground into extractor, which presents not a hook but instead a ramp, to the cartridge rim upon extraction?
Swap bolts with a buddy and see if the problem persists or goes away. Or maybe you have multiple 10-22s.
edit:
Whoa, you said a round in the chamber unfired...what you really need is a priest, because that's just weird. Need to think about that.
Something unusual about your particular rifle...I'm grasping at straws here, but get fine point permanent marker, and mark your shells 1 thru 10, load them in reverse order. Or scribe them 1 thru 10 with an awl, but serialize them. Mark, load, shoot, repeat until the failure happens. Now you can take the mag out, and see if:
Bolt traveling rearward during recoil sequence, properly extracts and ejects spent casing "4". Meanwhile, cartridge "5" is somehow nudged forward in the mag, and goes so far forward that it's ejected from the mag, skittering around inside the action. Round "6" is now presented by the mag feed spring to the feed lips, where the now forward-traveling bolt strips cartridge "6" from the mag and chambers "6" while crunching "5". That's all I can think of. I certainly hope a 10/22 won't fire unless the bolt is fully forward.
But see if the round is in the chamber that you expect to be in the chamber, or if it's one round further down than you expected.
Assuming this accounts for your problem, I'd alter the way the rifle behaves on recoil by installing a recoil buffer, using a different stronger spring for the bolt, in the hope that the rounds in the mag stay put under recoil. Would be interesting to swap bolt spring/charging handle assembly with a buddy and see if that helps.
I thought about the failure to extract issue first and it seems logical. I know for a fact though that I had at least one instance of the unfired round in the chamber and the "double feed" jamming up in there. It doesn't make sense. This rifle is basically brand new. I am going to disassemble and clean vigorously and follow your suggestions and see what happens.
Thanks,
Quote from: Francis Marion on January 07, 2008, 07:13:41 PMI certainly hope a 10/22 won't fire unless the bolt is fully forward.
It can, but not with the bolt as far back as, say, an AR-15.
If you don't believe me, CLEAR THE RIFLE, pull the bolt handle back a little, and pull the trigger. Hear the hammer drop? No? You have the bolt back too far. Ease it forward slowly, pulling the trigger repeatedly as you go. At some point that hammer WILL drop, and it will be before the bolt is fully home. It's not unknown for 10/22s to fire in this condidtion, and if the case lets go, this is known as an OOB kaBOOM. Usually blows out the extractor, can sometimes wreck the magazine as well.
Dirty little secret, almost all .22 semiautos will do this. OOB kaBOOMs are fairly common in .22 ARs, Rhineland R22s, Remington 597s, and T/C Classics. Well, not COMMON, maybe, but I've heard multiple reports of them with all those guns.
The only .22 semiauto rifle I have that will NOT let the hammer fall with the bolt back at least a hair (and I own quite a few of the things) is an old High Standard tube-mag Model 31 (Higgins).
You might try putting a little more tension on your magazine spring.
The top rd. may be moving forward when the bolt hits the boltstop and the bolt tries to pick up the next rd. when moving back to battery.
Very much like a 1911 with a weak mag spring
Yea, I know, a 1911 has much more recoil. ;D
Mag spring tension increase, I like that too.
To do a quick check,just dunk the mag in ATF and shake the fluid out,turn upside down and let drain. This will lub everything and make it very slippery.
Shoot it and see if there is a difference.
If so, clean and increase tension on the spring.
What is needed to increase tension on the spring?
check out the first video, it's about disassembly, cleaning and reassembly of the ruger 10/22 magazine.
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=557.msg5135#msg5135
Quote from: dwarven1 on January 07, 2008, 12:02:14 PM
I'm planning on keeping that one and giving my niece mine for her birthday (assuming that she finds a place to keep it; my sister is major-league anti-gun).
I think I can cover the storage spot, and I WILL be talking to your sister sometime before long (since I'm local, and considering where I'm employed, she may be more receptive to Blueskys and I). That's one of the things I was supposed to get done sometime over the winter.
Quote from: Nickle on January 08, 2008, 05:13:37 PM
I think I can cover the storage spot, and I WILL be talking to your sister sometime before long (since I'm local, and considering where I'm employed, she may be more receptive to Blueskys and I). That's one of the things I was supposed to get done sometime over the winter.
I've actually been waiting to see if Liz would think of asking you... And if you can get Sue with a rifle in her hands... well... all I'll say would be that the Age of Miracles isn't over. ;D
On another topic... does anyone know of a set of sights for the 10/22 that are like the Garand sights? I really like the sights on my Garand - even more than the Tech-Sights - so I was wondering if someone makes them that I could put on my 10/22 instead of the Tech-Sights.
I suppose I'll have to post a picture of Sue holding a rifle as proof, IF I can pull it off, right? I'm actually considering a personal invite to an Appleseed, probably Proctor. I'll even provide the rifle and ammo for her myself. I do have an awesome ladies LTR (scoped).
As to Liz, well, you (and she should) already know the answer.
As to M1 Garand sights, that would be tough, as they'll be tall. M1 Carbine sights may be doable, though.
Quote from: Nickle on January 08, 2008, 05:53:38 PMM1 Carbine sights may be doable, though.
Yes, that works fine. You just get one of those common Weaver sight bases and file a dovetail slot in it for the carbine sight. I've done it. Works good, looks good.
Quote from: Snake45 on January 08, 2008, 06:06:46 PM
Quote from: Nickle on January 08, 2008, 05:53:38 PMM1 Carbine sights may be doable, though.
Yes, that works fine. You just get one of those common Weaver sight bases and file a dovetail slot in it for the carbine sight. I've done it. Works good, looks good.
I'm not sure what you mean by "common Weaver sight base" here. You mean something like the scope base that's included with the 10/22 when you buy it new and just hand-file a dovetail into it? What about the front sight?
Quote from: dwarven1 on January 08, 2008, 07:28:57 PM
Quote from: Snake45 on January 08, 2008, 06:06:46 PM
Quote from: Nickle on January 08, 2008, 05:53:38 PMM1 Carbine sights may be doable, though.
Yes, that works fine. You just get one of those common Weaver sight bases and file a dovetail slot in it for the carbine sight. I've done it. Works good, looks good.
I'm not sure what you mean by "common Weaver sight base" here. You mean something like the scope base that's included with the 10/22 when you buy it new and just hand-file a dovetail into it? What about the front sight?
Answer to first question is "Yup, exactly that."
Answer to second question, "I would use a Tech Sight front sight, and change the post to a wider one. Somebody makes them wider, IIRC."
Quote from: dwarven1 on January 08, 2008, 07:28:57 PM
Quote from: Snake45 on January 08, 2008, 06:06:46 PM
Quote from: Nickle on January 08, 2008, 05:53:38 PMM1 Carbine sights may be doable, though.
Yes, that works fine. You just get one of those common Weaver sight bases and file a dovetail slot in it for the carbine sight. I've done it. Works good, looks good.
I'm not sure what you mean by "common Weaver sight base" here. You mean something like the scope base that's included with the 10/22 when you buy it new and just hand-file a dovetail into it? What about the front sight?
Weaver makes a 10/22 base, it might be called TO9 or something like that, that a lot of places carry, even Walmart. Cheap, too.
The Tech Sight front would prolly be too high for this application. I think the M14 front sight, as I illustrated a couple pages ago, would be just about right.
I'm trying to work out a way to put a USGI Carbine front sight on a stock 10/22 barrel, and that should prolly work, too. (Trying to turn one of my 10/22s into a carbine clone LTR.)
How would you adjust elevation if you use a carb front sight and a tech rear sight.
Quote from: Francis Marion on January 08, 2008, 08:00:54 PM
How would you adjust elevation if you use a carb front sight and a tech rear sight.
That combination wouldn't work. Carbine front sight isn't high enough.
I'm starting to think that this discussion should be continued in the Wiley E. Coyote School Of Gunsmithing thread... ;D but I think I'll get a spare scope base and a carbine rear site and start experimenting this spring. It has potential, I think...
Thanks for the ideas.
I have finished reading all 20+ pages of this thread and 20+ pages of the "optics for old eyes thread" and now my old eyes are TIRED. I was looking to see if anyone has tried out the Bushnell Sportsman 3x9x32 AO .22 scope. The only thing I saw that was close was the BSA. I put a Bushnell on my son's Marlin and I am very impressed so far. I have Techsights on order but if they don't work out I will be getting another Bushnell. Tommy
I have used several of these lower end Bushnell and BSAs and each
rifle they are on (.22) have always been reliable and elevation and
windage operate as they should. Remember to make sure scope
base and scope rings are tight. ;D
Quote from: VaWolf on January 11, 2008, 12:56:00 AM
I was looking to see if anyone has tried out the Bushnell Sportsman 3x9x32 AO .22 scope.
Haven't used that one but I have the Simmons 22MAG of exactly the same specs on a CZ 452 and I couldn't like it more. Perfect for all-around .22 use!
The LTR idea is catching on elsewhere: http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24586 (http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24586) -- a Zombie Hunter's Training Rifle!
He did a pretty good job of setting one up and explaining its benefits, and even changed a few minds of some doubters.
And now Perhaps the Appleseed link where they can practise their .22 Zombie Hunting in force? Come to an Appleseed, kill Red Coat Zombies. It has a ring to it.
Who's paying for zombie targets? This is an election year. Don't you guys get a daily newspaper? ;)
Woo Hoo...Just finished the hard part of setting up our LTRs. Installed Tech Sights, new mag release and a Volquartsen bolt release and hammer kit for each of our 10/22s. All I have left is to install is the swivels for our slings and we are set. Now all we need is the snow to stop and the temps to moderate so we can get out in the back yard to practice!
Love the Tech Sights and bolt release. This will make the rifles so much easier to shoot and operate. Highly recommended.
Fitz
Here's a guy turned his 10/22 into an M1 carbine clone/LTR. The Tech Sights are ugly on it, but otherwise he did a darn nice job with the project. It actually looks a lot better than it sounds. I think I'm gonna do one of these next, except I'm gonna use real M1 carbine sights on mine.
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205809
Just keep in mind that (in my Appleseed experience, as well as with my personal M1) the M1 carbine has abismal sling qualities. It truly is a carry strap. You can only get a hasty sling out of it and then it is very hard to get adjusted. I've found that in standing position, the butt is too shallow to get a good cheek weld. (If you raise the stock to the cheek, it is no longer on the shoulder, and the sling cuts into my throat since it comes from the side of the stock, not the bottom of it)
Other stocks are out there and seem to make better Appleseed platforms, (Although minus the cool factor). I did rig a decent sling for the thing, and I'm working on a forward sling stud (from a 10/22 with a band) that will go on the band screw with a nut which will give a good, adjustable, GI sling for loop or hasty applications. More on that later. JB
On the other hand (in spite of the effort and the expense of such a project), a slightly modified unit such as you suggest might be a neat little LTR for the children or the wife due to different physical makeup. I'm not a carbine fan myself but for folks who are that rifle would be the cat's meow for a trainer substitute.
I've wondered about trying to something similar with and M1 Garand stock and some additional accesories to make it look more like an M1 or M1A.
Just prepare yourself for Fred to ask why you aren't putting all that time and effort into doing Appleseeds. ;D
Quote from: M1A4ME on January 22, 2008, 01:02:43 PM
I've wondered about trying to something similar with and M1 Garand stock and some additional accesories to make it look more like an M1 or M1A.
Some good discussion on just such a project here:
http://www.m-14forum.com/upload/showthread.php?t=40714
Quote from: Junior Birdman on January 22, 2008, 12:45:52 PM
Just keep in mind that (in my Appleseed experience, as well as with my personal M1) the M1 carbine has abismal sling qualities. It truly is a carry strap. You can only get a hasty sling out of it and then it is very hard to get adjusted. I've found that in standing position, the butt is too shallow to get a good cheek weld. (If you raise the stock to the cheek, it is no longer on the shoulder, and the sling cuts into my throat since it comes from the side of the stock, not the bottom of it)
JB, not everyone is as tall as you are - my M1 fits me VERY nicely, thank you. As for my 10/22... well... I have a spare (eBay) stock that I'm planning on cutting down about 1/2" at a time to try and find a length of pull that fits me better.
I never thought that I would be excited about a humble .22 but I am , I am getting a 10/22 for my birthday can't hardly wait lots of trigger time I can aford (when I get to stop driveing ).
Wade
Quote from: dwarven1 on January 22, 2008, 02:34:43 PM
Quote from: Junior Birdman on January 22, 2008, 12:45:52 PM
Just keep in mind that (in my Appleseed experience, as well as with my personal M1) the M1 carbine has abismal sling qualities. It truly is a carry strap. You can only get a hasty sling out of it and then it is very hard to get adjusted. I've found that in standing position, the butt is too shallow to get a good cheek weld. (If you raise the stock to the cheek, it is no longer on the shoulder, and the sling cuts into my throat since it comes from the side of the stock, not the bottom of it)
JB, not everyone is as tall as you are - my M1 fits me VERY nicely, thank you. As for my 10/22... well... I have a spare (eBay) stock that I'm planning on cutting down about 1/2" at a time to try and find a length of pull that fits me better.
Ross, add sling swivel studs to that cut down stock, and you can use a better sling than the Carbine sling.
Quote from: Nickle on January 22, 2008, 07:24:57 PM
Quote from: dwarven1 on January 22, 2008, 02:34:43 PM
Quote from: Junior Birdman on January 22, 2008, 12:45:52 PM
Just keep in mind that (in my Appleseed experience, as well as with my personal M1) the M1 carbine has abismal sling qualities. It truly is a carry strap. You can only get a hasty sling out of it and then it is very hard to get adjusted. I've found that in standing position, the butt is too shallow to get a good cheek weld. (If you raise the stock to the cheek, it is no longer on the shoulder, and the sling cuts into my throat since it comes from the side of the stock, not the bottom of it)
JB, not everyone is as tall as you are - my M1 fits me VERY nicely, thank you. As for my 10/22... well... I have a spare (eBay) stock that I'm planning on cutting down about 1/2" at a time to try and find a length of pull that fits me better.
Ross, add sling swivel studs to that cut down stock, and you can use a better sling than the Carbine sling.
?? Roger, I'm cutting down a 10/22 - the M1 fits me fine the way it is. Adding sling swivel studs to the Carbine so I can use a different sling, now, isn't a bad idea.
Yeah, just don't butcher the stock on your Carbine, wait until you get another one, and butcher the worse of the two. Remember the M1 Carbine has collector value, even a Plainfield has some collector value.
The Carbine band can be easily modified to take a regular sling swivel. Here's another of my LTRs. The 10/22 in the middle, I modified the factory stock to take an old GI carbine front band. This band was missing its sling swivel so I just added one via the takedown screw. Now it works just like any other sling swivel.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/Snake45/1022s1.jpg)
Quote from: Groundhog on January 07, 2008, 06:30:39 PM
My 10/22 is having fairly consistent feeding problems, regardless of the mag used. Were it not for that issue, it would be a rifle anyone could make Rifleman with. Typically what appears to happen (though I can't swear this is actually what is happening) is some kind of double feed. What I typically find in there is a round in the chamber that is unfired and a second one trying to feed which jams up the works. Anyone experience this or have a fix idea?
Why don't folks post the problems their LTRs have, and the fixes tried and their results, so we can improve LTR reliability. I'm the second guy here who had reliability trouble with a brand new 10-22.
We can generate a troubleshooting guide to resolve the most popular issues.
I have the same double feed trouble, with a new 10/22 having had fewer than 500 rounds fired through it.
1) Double feeds: happens to me with either of two brand new 10shot factory mags used, frequency once in 20 rounds. Happens with the stock steel receiver/bolt stop pin, and with a hard plastic/polycarbonate buffer pin (home made buffer). Haven't tried lower durometer buffers or aftermarket buffers.
Haven't tried adjusting mag spring tension yet.
2) Failure to eject spent casing: happens once in 40 shots. Have stock ejector and stock extractor & bolt assembly.
What problems do people have, and what solutions are known to work?
First solution to ANY 10/22 functioning problem is to switch ammo.
The Federal Walmart Bulk is USUALLY extremely good-functioning ammo--MOST lots of it. Every now and then a bad lot gets through that's junk, but having shot it in over 30 different kinds of rifles and pistols, I can tell you this stuff is really reliable. Not that accurate, but really reliable.
CCI MiniMags are also extremely reliable and work in almost anything. If your gun won't run on at least one of those two, you've prolly got a gun problem.
Stovepiping or weak ejection, as well as the obvious failure to extract, in a 10/22 is almost always a function of the factory extractor. Either replace it with a VQ or other quality aftermarket extractor, or take the factory extractor out, file more of an undercut angle on the "hook," and reinstall it (if you're working on the cheap). Either fix will usually eliminate stovepiping problems.
I've had a number of issues with my 10/22 in the past, and every time the culprit was the ammo.
I was using that cheap stuff from Wal-Mart - not the Federal, it was something else and my memory fails me (box of 550; Remington?). I switched to Remington yellow jackets and lo and behold, fewer problems, but every now and then I'll have a problem.
I finally switched to the CCI mini Mags, Velocitors and Stingers, and no more problems.
I'm happy to say that I spent a good amount of time on MLK day sighting in 2 LTRs and an M1A for the upcoming Appleseed in Kingsport, TN.
As for my own 10-22 LTR, I modified the bolt release to the automatic style. I couldn't seem to get it to work even after grinding what seemed to be an excessive amount of metal. I finally discovered that it was binding on the plastic extended magazine release. About 15 seconds worth of Dremel grinding on the mag release and it worked perfectly.
Moral of the story: The problem may not be obvious, take your time and figure out what EXACTLY is happening.
Will
Quote from: Francis Marion on January 23, 2008, 06:01:33 PM
Why don't folks post the problems their LTRs have, and the fixes tried and their results, so we can improve LTR reliability. I'm the second guy here who had reliability trouble with a brand new 10-22.
We can generate a troubleshooting guide to resolve the most popular issues.
I'm of two minds on this. My first thought was "Because we're NOT a gun board, we're an APPLESEED board - and there are approximately 600,000 10/22 nuts over on www.rimfirecentral.com, and if they haven't seen the problem - AND know how to fix it! - it's not worth trying to fix at all.
OTOH, my second thought was "Well, we DID come up with the idea of the LTR here, so maybe a "Trick my LTR" thread might not be out of line.
So... I guess I'll stay out of this as I can't make up my mind about it.
Quote from: Politenessman on January 23, 2008, 06:53:41 PM
I've had a number of issues with my 10/22 in the past, and every time the culprit was the ammo.
I was using that cheap stuff from Wal-Mart - not the Federal, it was something else and my memory fails me (box of 550; Remington?).
The Remington bulk stuff had the bullet design changed a few years back; the hole in the hollowpoint was enlarged and the bullet shape itself was changed. I know because what had been a reliable round in my Ruger Mark 1 pistol suddenly turned it into a jammomatic. So my advice would have been what you did - try other brands. FWIW, my 10/22 doesn't have any feed problems with the Federal bulk stuff from WallyWorld.
Quote from: dwarven1 on January 24, 2008, 09:41:56 AM
Quote from: Francis Marion on January 23, 2008, 06:01:33 PM
Why don't folks post the problems their LTRs have, and the fixes tried and their results, so we can improve LTR reliability. I'm the second guy here who had reliability trouble with a brand new 10-22.
We can generate a troubleshooting guide to resolve the most popular issues.
I'm of two minds on this. My first thought was "Because we're NOT a gun board, we're an APPLESEED board - and there are approximately 600,000 10/22 nuts over on www.rimfirecentral.com, and if they haven't seen the problem - AND know how to fix it! - it's not worth trying to fix at all.
OTOH, my second thought was "Well, we DID come up with the idea of the LTR here, so maybe a "Trick my LTR" thread might not be out of line.
So... I guess I'll stay out of this as I can't make up my mind about it.
Quote from: Politenessman on January 23, 2008, 06:53:41 PM
I've had a number of issues with my 10/22 in the past, and every time the culprit was the ammo.
I was using that cheap stuff from Wal-Mart - not the Federal, it was something else and my memory fails me (box of 550; Remington?).
The Remington bulk stuff had the bullet design changed a few years back; the hole in the hollowpoint was enlarged and the bullet shape itself was changed. I know because what had been a reliable round in my Ruger Mark 1 pistol suddenly turned it into a jammomatic. (I compared some of the older stuff side by each with the current fodder, which is how I know the exact differences) So my advice would have been what you did - try other brands. FWIW, my 10/22 doesn't have any feed problems with the Federal bulk stuff from WallyWorld.
I ordered all my parts yesterday and will pick up the rifle on Sunday. Definatley looking forward to building my LTR and attending my first Appleseed.
Welcome Bratch,
You are going to love the Appleseed program, and the LTR is the perfect fit for a trainer!
Good times comming your way.
Where will you be attending your first shoot?
With three different versions of the 10/22 functioning has never been
a problem. They eat every brand and type ammo that it is fed. The
last purchased was about 8 years back. The three are listed by age
a sporter with the checkered walnut stock, target, and the last a stand-
rifle ;D
I'll be attending the ones in OK.
My Midway order arrived now waiting on the rifle and Tech-sights. ;D
Ok? Need thoughts or ideas on the 10/22 rifle or carbine. Is the difference in accuracy noticeable.
Accuracy won't be affected by 4 inches of barrel. The velocity will be a little lower for the shorter barrel but won't be a factor at 25 meters.
My short barreled (carbine) 10/22 will shoot 5/8" groups at 25 meters with the sling and tech sights with Remington Golden Bullets.
Agreed. Barrel length might become a factor for a .22 at 100yds, but not at 25.
Hmmm, I thought that most 22lr cartridges reached full burn around 16-17 inches. Wouldn't that mean that the 20" 10/22 might actually sling the same bullet just a touch slower due to the extra friction (in theory)? Then again, in Theory, theory and practice are the same. In Practice, they're not. ;-)
Redwolf, you'll most certainly benefit from the longer sight radius of the rifle.
Quote from: Redwolf on February 02, 2008, 09:10:44 PM
Ok? Need thoughts or ideas on the 10/22 rifle or carbine. Is the difference in accuracy noticeable.
No. Accuracy will vary more between individual barrels than between particular lengths. Three of my four most accurate .22 rifles have the longest barrels (24, 25, and 26 inches), but the trend in .22 benchrest these days is for shorter barrels--16 to 18 inches, 20 tops.
Velocity will actually be higher in the shorter (16" is legal minimum) .22 barrels.
Buy either you want based on looks, balance, price, or any other consideration you wish without regard to accuracy or velocity. You'll never notice the difference, if any.
Oh, the longer a .22 barrel is, the quieter the rifle will be. Not that ANY of them make all THAT much noise.
For the LTR, the length of the barrel is considered for:
Longer barrel = longer sight radius, and
Longer barrel with that slow bullet = WILL train you to follow through
Even then, there's not enough difference that the average guy would notice. The average guy will never shoot up to the accuracy potential of the rifle, out of the box anyway, carbine or 22". JB
Good stuff. I like the idea of the follow through and the longer sight radius. Sound like that would be good practice when you go for putting the 308 out at 500. Of course carbine dose have a good feel.
We have the stainless 18.5 and the 22". Wally World has them for 218 or 238.
I know that with all these shooters some one has to have tried to reach out and see what they can do. The plan is to get one for Ramseur this month. Thanks
On this thread there was mention of using a Ar 15 windage knob on the Tech sights. I have both & the sights look great but I don't see that the knob will work.
Any ideas ?
Thanks
Quote from: dave on February 04, 2008, 12:09:42 AM
Any ideas ?
Yes. I don't mean to sound like a smartass, but readily adjustable windage on a .22 just isn't critical IMHO. Set your sights up on a wind-free day at your desired range (I like 50 yards for irons on a .22), and then leave them alone. I find that to be the simplest way to handle the problem.
Quote from: dave on February 04, 2008, 12:09:42 AM
On this thread there was mention of using a Ar 15 windage knob on the Tech sights. I have both & the sights look great but I don't see that the knob will work.
I picked up the DPMS knob and it won't really work. I Tech Sights use a post detent, but the DPMS seems to want a ball detent so it can turn.
Currently I am using this: http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=260328&t=11082005
Yup, got the same one for adjusting the windage on the rear sight and got this one http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=304696 for adjusting elevation on the front sight.
Since they work for the AR type rifles as well I take them to an Appleseed when I go.
I checked at Midway this morning and they were listed as sold out, backorder ok. I just got my Tech sights yesterday and couldn't wait so I adjusted windage with a very small punch and a screwdriver. Used the small punch and a Glock punch for the front sight elevation and the Glock punch for elevation on the rear sight. It is very slow and you have to be careful not to scatch things up but it works in a pinch.
Glad to know I wasn't missing something :)
I figured that, once set, the windage wouldn't be fooled with much. But it seems like a really cool idea to have it set up with the windage knob.
I noticed Tech Sights sells a tool similar to the one mentioned. I "knew" I should have ordered one:)
I have been setting up LTRs for my self & a couple of other guys that have gotten interested in AS. At least 2 of us will be in Corona Ca.
I do appreciate the help guys .
dave
I've only shot 3 kinds of .22 ammo in mine so I haven't see a need to make windage or elevation adjustments for that (but could some day). Mine has been through a lot of adjustment due to loaining it out at Appleseeds. Seems nobody shoots it to the same POA so sight adjustments are necessary to get them on the target. Then I have to put it back afterwards. By the way, it helps if you do the sight adjustments so you can keep track of where to put it back to if you want to be able to pull it out of the case and use it yourself.
Quote from: M1A4ME on February 05, 2008, 12:14:06 PM
Mine has been through a lot of adjustment due to loaining it out at Appleseeds. Seems nobody shoots it to the same POA so sight adjustments are necessary to get them on the target. Then I have to put it back afterwards. By the way, it helps if you do the sight adjustments so you can keep track of where to put it back to if you want to be able to pull it out of the case and use it yourself.
Point taken. ;)
Quote from: Nickle on August 13, 2007, 09:30:18 PM
Well, here's what I did (or will do, in the case of a couple items), the cost of the items, and this is a decent priced, working setup. All prices are retail. They are not special or sale prices, nor are they group buy prices. These are 24/7/365 retail prices.
First, I started with Ruger 10/22 Carbines.
Install sling swivels studs, detachable swivels and a USGI M1 Garand type sling.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=366960 (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=366960) $2.49
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=270453 (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=270453) $6.79
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=777813 (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=777813) $10.29, black, also comes in green.
Do these swivel studs make use of the barrel band? I see that the Uncle Mike's Swivel Stud 115 B Set includes a machine screw and a wood screw.
It appears they are confident of the rear one holding fine when just the butt stock is drilled and the stud screwed into it. On the front it looks like they expect you to drill through the forend and into the barrel channel (so take the rifle action/barrel out of the stock) and install the nut on the front stud. My 10/22 carbine stock was pretty thick (form the bottom of the barrel channel to the bottom of the forend) so I countersunk the holes from the inside so the nut/screws would not stick up into the barrel channel. I don't know if the Uncle Mike's stuff has a long enough stud to come all the way through into the barrel channel or not. If not you'll need to countersink the hole with a drill bit large enough to allow the nut to pull down into the hole without splitting the forend.
Looks like you got the right swivels and the right sling. You get the sling and the tech sights on that thing and when you get down and serious it'll feel like an M1 or M1A (you'll know your mind has made that crossover when you start trying to push the safety forward in the trigger guard and can't find it.) It makes an excellent training rifle.
I ordered the Tech Sights a few days ago so I should be good to go on that.
Uncle Mike makes some swivels that come with a 10/22 band adapter, but they only go up to 1". Still, it might be worth ordering a set to cherry pick that one piece for use with the 1.25" swivels that Nickle is recommending. Or I suppose I could make something.
It's just that I would hate to drill into the stock when there's already a more elegant solution - I'm kinda obsessive about that kind of crap ::)
If you want one of those adapters, PM your mailing address to me and I will send you one. I tried it and wasn't happy with it. When you tighten up the sling, the barrel band puts pressure on the barrel and changes the point of impact. Some people remove the barrel band entirely for this reason. The best setup for a wood stock is here:
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=190783
(or find a well-stocked Uncle Mike's dealer with this item)
For a synthetic stock:
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=705310
I replace the knurled nut with a 5mm nut and washer from the hardware store. It makes it easier to tighten down with a socket instead of pliers.
I will take you up on that and thank you for it.
Disappointed that you think it won't work as well though. (But I'm still gonna try it :-\ )
Your Mileage May Vary. Be aware you also have to file/grind the opening in the barrel band to allow for the thickness of the adapter.
Quote from: GMB74 on February 15, 2008, 06:03:35 PM
Your Mileage May Vary. Be aware you also have to file/grind the opening in the barrel band to allow for the thickness of the adapter.
Huh, that's about as bad as drilling holes in the wood. I'm screwed no matter which way I go :p
I drilled two holes in the front and the butt stock. I used an M14 front sling swivel and a M1917 US Enfield sling swivel in the back. My sling attachment is rock solid. And it looks good, too.
Quote from: Nishnabotna on February 15, 2008, 06:06:45 PM
Quote from: GMB74 on February 15, 2008, 06:03:35 PM
Your Mileage May Vary. Be aware you also have to file/grind the opening in the barrel band to allow for the thickness of the adapter.
Huh, that's about as bad as drilling holes in the wood. I'm screwed no matter which way I go :p
Replacement barrel bands are about $5. You can also get them free for asking at Rimfirecentral.com, as many of them have simply been discarded in the building of "ultimates" (10/22 hot rods).
Brand-new factory stocks range in price from $20-$25 (gun shows) down to the cost of shipping (again, by asking at RFC, and for the same reason).
There's no need to treat either part as valuable, collectible, or sacred. (Older, walnut 10/22 stocks do have some value, though.)
Quote from: Snake45 on February 15, 2008, 11:33:57 PM
There's no need to treat either part as valuable, collectible, or sacred. (Older, walnut 10/22 stocks do have some value, though.)
It's a personal mania of mine. Never mind, I'll suck it up and do one or the other. Thanks to the kind offer from GMB74 I have the choice.
On another note, the Tech Sights I had ordered came in today - ordered on the 13th, arrived on the 15th. That's service! Now I need to get the weaver mount off... damn lock-tite...
Quote from: GMB74 on February 15, 2008, 05:44:11 PM
When you tighten up the sling, the barrel band puts pressure on the barrel and changes the point of impact. Some people remove the barrel band entirely for this reason.
I try not to ever put anything on my rifle that touches the barrel, especially that has pressure on and off, like a barrel band that will pull the barrel off of poi when applying pressures with your sling. The same would go for any of the Bipods I see people putting on that clamp on your barrel. I have a hogue stock on a Tactical Solutions bull barrel, but I can pass a dollar between the barrel and stock even under sling pressure.
I picked up my 10/22 LTR today and I'm stuck in the same boat with the sling studs. Mine doesn't have any and I didn't get the wood stock but the synthetic digicam (it looked cool) and I really don't want to mess it up. Guess Ill need to either suck it up or get a smith to do it.
On the barrel band though, is that something I should be taking off?
Quote from: Gawl on February 16, 2008, 02:17:59 AM
On the barrel band though, is that something I should be taking off?
Only you can say that, after careful testing. Some 10/22s will shoot better with the band removed, some shoot better with it on there. I have one of each.
You'll probably need a scope and a benchrest to tell the difference. For Appleseed purposes, I don't think it's going to make much difference--probably not nearly as much difference as you'll find between the best and worst of ammo brands.
Keep in mind that a 10/22 has just the one action bedding screw.
I'd agree with Snake45 about trying your rifle out before you remove the barrel band. Mine shoots great with it one. I have the original stock (refinished though), the sling swivels mentioned above, a 1 & 1/2" butt extension (for my long arms) and the tech sights. My best groups from a sling supported prone position are around 5/8" at 25 yds.
That's why I keep telling people to go to an Appleseed, learn to use that sling and you won't need a bench rest to get nice groups. I have sighted some rifles in (irons and scopes) sitting since I've learned the value of the sling and how to get a good sitting position.
You really need that sling to help you lock that rifle into your shoulder and steady it up.
Well I picked up the uncle mikes swivel set, its only the 1" ones but I can swap the swivels later. Going to take a crack at drilling them in later on. Thanks for the advice on the barrel band, I'll play with it and see. I do like the way it looks with it off better so I may just leave it off if it won't adversly affect the rifle.
The Uncle Mike's studs that come with the one machine screw will fit the stock just fine; you drill a hole in the stock as far forward as you can and countersink a larger hole in the stock from under the barrel. The nut that comes with it gets drawn down into the hole when you tighten the screw. Works great.
Anyone who wants a barrel band that's already filed to accept the swivel, just PM me your address and I'll send you mine. I had mine done that way but I've decided to change it over to the countersunk version.
Well I drilled the sink hole and the other hole inside of it just fine and screwed the front post in, but the post doesn't seem to tighten...as in it doesn't reach a point where it stops turning. I can't pull the stud out, but is it normal for it to still spin some? Also the nut your referring to that it comes with, is that the white washer? My kit did not have a nut to put on from the inside.
Quote from: Gawl on February 16, 2008, 05:18:14 PM
Well I drilled the sink hole and the other hole inside of it just fine and screwed the front post in, but the post doesn't seem to tighten...as in it doesn't reach a point where it stops turning. I can't pull the stud out, but is it normal for it to still spin some? Also the nut your referring to that it comes with, is that the white washer? My kit did not have a nut to put on from the inside.
Wood screw type threads? Doesn't use the nut.
(http://www.unclemikes.com/images/wood_screw_type.jpg)
This kind below? Machine screw type, and that shows the nut.
(http://www.unclemikes.com/images/machine_screw.jpg)
I think I see the problem, the ones I picked up are the wood and not for synthetic (knew I would find a way to mess this up). Guess I'll need to see if I can find the synthetic set and see if the nut will work on the wood, or if they will fit the holes I drilled. Thanks Nickle.
Gawl, you could also try filling in that hole with Plastic Wood - it hardens into something that can be drilled and tapped.
Brownell's sells Bisonite, an epoxy that is made specifically for stock work. It also can be drilled and tapped, and is good stuff.
An alternative would be Devcon F, should hold well enough to work.
That's assuming you can't make the woodscrew type work with epoxy.
Well I got the synthetic set today and the problem now is the hole for the post in the front is to big. I put the post in and the nut from the inside and was able to tighten it down really good. Problem is now if I hook the swivel up and rotate it counter clockwise the nut on the inside catches the inside of the stock and it loosens. I was wondering if I could just use some 2 part poxy on the inside with the nut to fasten it in place to keep it from moving or if thats not a good idea. Thanks for all the help everyone, much appreciated.
If you use epoxy you need to use some dishwashing liquid on the screw threads (as a "release" compound) or you may never get the stud in/out again. The epoxy should hold the nut in place pretty good, you just don't want epoxy on the internal threads of the nut or the threads on the screw.
Quote from: Gawl on February 18, 2008, 02:51:23 PM
Well I got the synthetic set today and the problem now is the hole for the post in the front is to big. I put the post in and the nut from the inside and was able to tighten it down really good. Problem is now if I hook the swivel up and rotate it counter clockwise the nut on the inside catches the inside of the stock and it loosens. I was wondering if I could just use some 2 part poxy on the inside with the nut to fasten it in place to keep it from moving or if thats not a good idea. Thanks for all the help everyone, much appreciated.
That's what I would do.
Remember to use some form of release compound on the screw threads, and you should be all set.
Sounds good, I'll put some on it and should be good. Thanks again for all the help, going to take the LTR out tomorrow and put some rounds through her to break her in ;D
If this hasn't been answered already...
Q: Will an M16 A2 front post fit into a Tech Sight front assembly?
A: Yes, both use the same 8-36 thread pattern. However, you'll probably have to file off a few of the threads from the bottom of the M16 A2 post.
The Tech Sight front post has a threaded portion which is 0.395 inch long, and the M16 A2 front post has a threaded portion which is 0.460 inch long. So, if you want to use an M16 A2 front post in your Tech Sight, you might find that you have to file off a few of the A2 threads in case the A2 post bottoms out before you have achieved the desired elevation change.
You can see the difference in the photo attached; the tech sight post is on the left, the A2 post on the right.
Ouch. 8-36? Who uses 8-36?
If anyone does get that M16A2 sight, you may want to drop by the hardware store and see if you can find an 8-36 nut (good luck!). When you file down the post, thread the nut on the post BEFORE you start filing. That way, when you're done shortening the screw, you back the nut off the threads and it cleans up the end of the threads.
Old machinist's trick. ;)
OK, I could use some advice. I need to take off the Weaver base to install the Tech Sights. Problem is that the foremost screw apparently got a liberal dose of lok-tite. I cannot get the dang thing off and I'm slowly ruining the screw head with my efforts. I do have the correct size driver, or at least I started out with it. By now I've managed to widen the slot enough I will need a larger driver to properly fit. I'm also afraid that I will end up twisting the screw head off leaving the post in the threads (been there done that).
Is there any kind of trick to get past this, or am I approaching smith territory?
Heat will release the Loc-Tite.
A large Soldering Iron on the head of the screw works great.
Quote from: ken grant on February 18, 2008, 07:29:58 PM
Heat will release the Loc-Tite.
A large Soldering Iron on the head of the screw works great.
Ah, now that I have. I will try this out!
Try putting a little heat to it. All you have to heat is the screw, and that should be enough to loosen the Loc Tite. Heat a rod and touch it to the screw. Propane torch shoule give enough heat.
Oops, I see that got mentioned already.
Another thing that works sometimes is rapping the butt of the screwdriver with a hammer. Not too hard, enough to jar the screw some.
I assume you are using a gunsmith screwdriver set, not a standard screwdriver. Gunsmith screwdriver bits are hollow ground, giving parallel faces to fit the straight sides of the screws used in guns. Standard screwdrivers are tapered, or chisel shaped. When using a standard screwdriver in a gunscrew the tapered driver will tend to "walk" up the straight walls of the gunscrew slot, boogering it. Apply some heat as recommended,get the right screwdriver to apply the max. torque, and here's one more secret: automotive valve lapping compound. Available at any auto parts store. Apply a dab to the screwdriver tip, apply as much downward force as you can to keep the driver from walking out of the slot. The particles of grit will help fill in the boogered slot and keep the driver from slipping.
Good luck.
Is anyone having trouble with the Tech sights on a 10/22 as far as having to raise the front post sight so far that it wobbles? I heard a couple of grumbles at the last shoot I was at but it didn't hit home until today. I bought two sets and both seem like the sight post is to short.
Absolutely heard of this problem. It seems to be a problem only sometimes.
The two possible solutions seem to be, to replace the front sight post with an original M-16 post, same screw thgread but longer shank, or to install a Williams "riser block," available from MidwayUSA or Brownell's. That raises the sight .250," which may be too much. Solutions to that problem that come to mind would be to grind down the front sight post or install a shim (thinner than .250") under the rear sight.
This info is mostly second-hand, my own experiments are on-going. "Bother," said Pooh.
Mine should be in today as well as my order with midway and I had ordered an A2 front post for my tech sights. Once they get here I'll take a crack at installing them and let you know if it works golfer.
Quote from: golfer7080 on February 20, 2008, 03:09:43 AM
Is anyone having trouble with the Tech sights on a 10/22 as far as having to raise the front post sight so far that it wobbles? I heard a couple of grumbles at the last shoot I was at but it didn't hit home until today. I bought two sets and both seem like the sight post is to short.
Is this a problem with both the 100 and 200? Or just the 100 (since the 200 has adjustable elevation it might meet the front post at a point that it is comfortable with. Of course, I haven't figured out how to adjust the aperture elevation yet. The tool doesn't seem to fit on it and my finger nails aren't strong enough to simply rotate it.)?
I talked with Larry (owner/designer) at tech-sights today. The front sight post is fine with the TSR-100 series sights. The issue came up with the 200 series. The addition of the elevation adjustment on the rear sight makes the front post sight a tad short for 25m shooting. They are looking into adding a "tall" front sight post as an accesory item and possibly incorporating a "tall" sight with the 200 series. He has the front sight posts made for his sights and they are "thinned" compared to AR sight posts to present a better and more accurate sight picture for the .22's. I have been researching sight posts and am looking for the most reasonable price for the taller sight post. I will get some and play with "thinning" these to see how it works out. I have added some links to where you can order sight posts and sight tools (most reasonable so far).
http://www.del-ton.com/Front_Sight_Post_p/st1020.htm (http://www.del-ton.com/Front_Sight_Post_p/st1020.htm)
http://www.del-ton.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=a1+sight (http://www.del-ton.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=a1+sight)
Quote from: golfer7080 on February 20, 2008, 03:09:43 AM
Is anyone having trouble with the Tech sights on a 10/22 as far as having to raise the front post sight so far that it wobbles? I heard a couple of grumbles at the last shoot I was at but it didn't hit home until today. I bought two sets and both seem like the sight post is to short.
You might eke out a bit more useful travel out of the spring detent by removing the post, detent and spring, dropping a small bit of something into the spring hole (shotgun pellet, cylindrical segment of thick copper wire, etc.) and replacing the spring, detent, and post. Now the detent will push against the post a bit more than it did before, and hopefully the post will rest in a consistent spot because it's now under the influence of the spring. Whatever bit you drop into the hole should be larger in diameter than the spring, and unable to work its way inside the spring.
edit- or, head to the hardware store, front sight assembly in hand, and find a longer spring.
Forgive me if its posted here but my search wasn't finding it, but I'm having issues with the factory mag not seating right. I have one mag which came with my 10/22, seats just fine. I can load it up and slip it in no problem. I purchased another from walmart (factory) that loaded will not slide in without me holding the mag release open. I looked over both magazines and I can't see a single difference between them. I haven't tried that particular mag unloaded so I will try that along with the other mags I ordered through midway. Was wondering if anyone else had seen this come up and if so knew what the problem might be.
The mags themselves feed fine. Went out yesterday with my ltr and put 500 rounds of different ammo through it. Ran some remington thunder bolts, gold, and cci blazer with no feed issues or misfires. I was mainly testing ammo to make sure what I had fed right. Wish I would have watched them a little better though as one of those brands really got her dirty. Got the rest of the stuff from midway so taking a crack at that next, also got my tech sights on (those are sweet). Will post some pics when done as its looking pretty wicked. I think we might need an LTR pic thread to show these beautiful trainers off ;)
Quote from: Gawl on February 20, 2008, 09:02:34 PM
I was mainly testing ammo to make sure what I had fed right. Wish I would have watched them a little better though as one of those brands really got her dirty.
That would be the Thunderbolts - yes, they're definitely nasty.
As far as the mag issue - it's not unusual for each one to have it's own quirks. Some just need a little break-in time. Others benefit from the WECSOG. As you accumulate more it's a good idea to number them so you can keep up with which ones have repetitive issues that you may be able to diagnose and fix yourself.
Good luck, Sir.
Yeah I tested the other mags as well as that one unloaded...it will go in if you really slam it home, otherwise it wont budge. Think it had something to do with the nipple on it. As for numbering was going to do that. Figured I would order some of those clips that hold 2 factory mags together for my 6 mags and just start with the problem mag as the first one.
I got the automatic bolt release in (thank god) as well as the extended mag release and they make a huge difference. I will say though, I'll be happy if I never have to take that trigger housing apart again. Putting those springs back in was not fun.
Yup, the mags do seem to require a little bit of breaking in. It seems to help if you give them a very slight forward push when new.
I've noticed that on the forward side of the magazines, you'll see several indentations. Sometimes these have some flashing on them sticking up. It interferes with the mag dropping free; maybe on yours it's interfering with the mag going in? A few touches with a file, or a machinist's scraper will remove the flashing quickly.
Thought I would post my experience so far with building my trainer.
I started with a 10/22 from the '70s that a family member gave me. I want to teach my 2 sons to shoot with this rifle, so I got the TAPCO adjustable stock.
The TAPCO stock went on OK - I had to drill out the hole for the take down screw a bit to get it to go in at the correct angle. Other than that, it fits well. The rear swivel that comes with the stock is interchangable with an AR one, only it is thick plastic. I filed it down so my sling can clip on to it. I will eventually replace it with a metal AR swivel.
I drilled a hole just forward of the lower rail cover on the stock, and installed a swivel (Midway item 788464) for the front. The stock comes with a mount for a front swivel, but it is on the side of the stock and would not be good for a shooting sling. I am using a sling I bought from Fred at my first Appleseed - works great with this setup.
I added the Tech Sights model TSR100. Went on easy, works well. Got the rifle sighted in at 25m in no time.
For bolt release, I did the modification where you file away the 'hump' on the bolt stop. Easy mod - works well.
I ordered Power Custom's Hammer and Sear kit (around $45). It just arrived, so I will be installing it this week. Hoping it will improve the heavy trigger pull (8 lbs).
I ordered up some Eagle brand 10 round mags. I have heard good and bad about them, but they were only $5 ea (not a big loss if I have to toss them). I also have a bunch of Butler Creek 25 rnd mags that came with the gun - they work well but stick out too far to get in a good prone position. I also have some factory mags, which work fine but are not as easy to get out of the gun.
I have a Volquartsen extended mag release on order from Midway.
That is about it! The only other thing I have planned is to install a recoil buffer, which should reduce wear on the rifle.
The money I am saving on .308 has already paid for all of the parts I have bought. The rifle shoots well, and I am looking forward to using it at the Wenatchee Appleseed in April.
-Josh
Since there is this new emphasis on using .22 caliber rifles at AS...
AND since the current AQT is scored based on 30 cal. hole sizes... (am I right on that?)
May it be resolved that there might be a niche for an AQT with scoring lines adjusted for .22 caliber hole as opposed to superimposing a 30 cal shell over a 22 cal hole to judge the 'close ones'?
(http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/anim_sniper2.gif)
Anyone know where I can find a butt extender? I have found a couple that use the original butt plate screw however my rifle does not have that. I have the special edition camo model that doesn't have a butt plate screw, its just a solid piece. Also the bolt return pin seems to be loose as when not in the stock it constantly slides out and when in the stock it rattles around. Is there something I can do to fix this other than just put some tape over the sides?
Hey Gawl,
I have some ideas for your rifle. Give me a call. I don't know of a bolt return pin. I am thinking that you mean the bolt stop pin. If this is true that is an easy fix. Just put in a bolt damper. I may have one here. Are you sure about the buttplate. Is it just covered up with the paint scheme? I don't see Ruger redoing the entire stock just for one flavor of rifle. I will do some research. Give me a call.
Chris
aka Golfer7080
I bought one of those $7 plastic ones off ebay. If it fits your rifle (width, height and curve why not just use it as the template for drilling a couple of holes to mount it to the butt stock.
As for the pins, are you talking about the plastic pins (2) that hold the trigger group in the receiver? If so one of the other members here suggested using a center punch to "expand the two ends slightly so they fit more snugly in the receiver holes. Just tap them on the ends a few times (trying them in the receiver holes) till they fit better.
As to the scoring question, it's no different than for .223 caliber holes. It's called the 30 caliber rule. You look at the bullet hole. If it's so close to the next higher scoring line that the line would have been cut by a 30 caliber bullet then you score it that way - add the extra point.
OK...another topic segue.
I just installed the Tech Sight TSR 100 on my nascent LTR. They come with a 50yd and 100 yd dual aperture rear sight. I presume the one with the thicker stalk is the 50 yd'er. However, Tech Sight's FAQ section doesn't specify which is which (that I could find, anyway). Is my assumption correct? Also, what is the purpose of having the same aperture peep hole on two different sized supports? It doesn't seem to affect the sight picture any :-\.
Thanks.
Keith
I don't have the 100 on my rifle so I don't have experience with it. I'd say that the taller "leg" of the rear sight was the 100 yd sight. See if you can measure which one of the two has the aperature that is farther away from the top of the receiver. The higher the aperature, higher you will "lift" the front sight to center it and that will increase the arc of the bullet's trajectory to enable it to hit a target at a longer range.
Having said that, nothing guarantees those sights on your rifle with the ammo you are shooting will be dead on at 50 or 100 yds. until you shoot the rifle and sight it in. Since most of the AQT shooting with a .22 is done at 25 meters I sighted mine in at that range. With mine (carbine version of the 10/22) and Remington Golden Bullets it hits POA at 25 yds. and at 100 yds. with no sight adjustment necessary.
That's part of the fun. Learning what you can do with your rifle.
I had a problem recently.
I replaced the original bolt handle with a Power Custom SS model. I did two rifles exactly the same . When I went to the range one wouldn't fire, click but no bang. The other rifle worked well. So back on went the original part. And this rifle shot as before.
When I had the rifle apart I couldn't see any problem. Where did I go wrong?
Thanks
Did you try to reinstall the bolt handle again? It is possible that if you did not get the bolt spring guide rod snapped onto place in the receiver properly that it will not let the bolt fully engage. It will let the trigger "cock" and fire but will not hit the firing pin.
Chris
aka golfer7080
Added the Tech sighs to my 10/22 today. They made a world of difference. Thumbs up.
Getting ready for April 19th.
Quote from: golfer7080 on February 20, 2008, 11:33:29 AM
I talked with Larry (owner/designer) at tech-sights today. The front sight post is fine with the TSR-100 series sights. The issue came up with the 200 series. The addition of the elevation adjustment on the rear sight makes the front post sight a tad short for 25m shooting. They are looking into adding a "tall" front sight post as an accesory item and possibly incorporating a "tall" sight with the 200 series. He has the front sight posts made for his sights and they are "thinned" compared to AR sight posts to present a better and more accurate sight picture for the .22's. I have been researching sight posts and am looking for the most reasonable price for the taller sight post. I will get some and play with "thinning" these to see how it works out. I have added some links to where you can order sight posts and sight tools (most reasonable so far).
http://www.del-ton.com/Front_Sight_Post_p/st1020.htm (http://www.del-ton.com/Front_Sight_Post_p/st1020.htm)
http://www.del-ton.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=a1+sight (http://www.del-ton.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=a1+sight)
Has anyone had a chance to try out one of the extended front sight posts? I got my sights installed last week and took it out today for a rough zero session (no sling/mounts yet and table was still under a snowdrift). Its close but I don't want to raise that front sight anymore and the rear is maxed.
Here's the sight post at Midway:
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=810857
DPMS has it cheaper but it looks like it will take them longer to ship and I don't want to wait. Figures, I just received a Midway order too, guess I'll have to find some more stuff there to order...
Steelheart
I just "overhauled" my old 10/22 yesterday evening. I'm hoping to go the Fall Knob Creek Appleseed shoot and am setting it up for that, plus to use as a low-cost trainer for my M1 Garands.
Years ago I had installed QD sling swivels, an extended mag release, and a set of Williams aperture sights. I decided that I did not really like the Williams sights - mainly I was dissatisfied with the bead front sight. I mainly punch paper, and the bead was hard to get a consistent 6:00 hold. Also the deal of having to loosen a setscrew and slide the rear sight to adjust it was annoying - I prefer something with click adjustments - spoiled by the Garands, I guess.
But Garands and M14's have the BEST irons ever put on a rifle, IMHO! If I can get something even approaching that perfection on my 10/22 I'll be happy.
So, yesterday evening I put on a set of TSR-100 Tech Sights, but I decided to use an M16A2 front sight post instead of the standard A1 sight post. I like the A2 post because it is a square post, not a cylindrical one like the A1. Of course it only has 4-clicks of adjustment instead of 5, but it always presents a flat face to the rear sight. I'm going to sight in for 25 meters, and then adjust for elevation at different ranges using "come-ups" of the front sight clicks. Oh, while I was at it, I used a narrower NM post, too.
I also installed a Volquartsen auto bolt release, and I drifted out the no-longer-used stocker open sight off of the barrel and drifted in a dovetail filler.
Just for looks I added a Ram-Line handguard. I think that the Tech Sights are visually so high, the addition of the handguard seems to help "balance" the gun's appearance - the only non-functional mod on the rifle, but I like it!
I put a G.I. web sling on it, but since I already had QD sling swivels I took the rear clip off of the sling and just looped it through the rear QD swivel. Now, to sling up, instead of un-clipping the sling from the rear swivel I just pop the button and unhook the swivel from it's base. The other nice thing about having the QD swivels is that, when I want to walk downrange to check my target, I don't have to un-loop from the sling - I just undo the front QD and leave the sling on my arm. Convenient.
Also, a while back, I stripped the original finish off of the birch or whatever mystery wood that Ruger made the stock out of, and re-finished it with BLO and a touch of Brownells Pre-64 stain. Looks really good, and I was able to sand out a chip on the heel of the stock to boot.
I have an extended buttpad on order, and am just waiting for it to arrive. I think the original stock is just a little short for me.
Tomorrow if the back yard isn't like quicksand from all the rain today, I hope to get out and zero the rifle at 25 meters. I am going to set the rear sight at mechanical zero and get windage dialed in by shifting the front sight in its dovetail - it has a setscrew so I should be able to tweak it just like a Garand. Might need files to set the elevation on the front post, though, but like I said, I only plan on shooting at 25 meters.
Nice having a 25 meter range in the backyard!
Regarding magazines - I'm not a big fan of the "banana clip" look. I find that they just get in the way (especially in prone and sitting), and just scream "Hey Look! I'm a .22!". I find that the standard 10-round Ruger rotary mags are just about perfect!
Sounds good, tpelle.
Please post a pic of your LTR, if you can.
Quote from: wcmartin1 on March 15, 2008, 01:33:18 PM
Sounds good, tpelle.
Please post a pic of your LTR, if you can.
Here ya go!
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c354/tpelle/Ruger%2010_22/DSCN0450-1.jpg)
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c354/tpelle/Ruger%2010_22/DSCN0451.jpg)
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c354/tpelle/Ruger%2010_22/DSCN0453.jpg)
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c354/tpelle/Ruger%2010_22/DSCN0455.jpg)
BTW, the rifle continues to evolve!
As of now, the big ol' Goat and Logo on the top of the handguard is gone! A flat file, a sheet of 600 grit wet/dry sandpaper, and some elbow grease took care of that! I figure if the Ram-Line Corporation would like to come to some financial agreement with me for my services in advertising their product, then we can talk. Until then, I'm not gonna have that big thing uglyin' up my rifle.
Also, the extended buttplate came in today, and I put it on. This rifle originally had a hard-plastic buttplate, and it never did really fit the buttstock that well - there was always a gap between the buttplate and the wood. I'm happy with the extended buttplate. It not only lengthens the pull just that little bit it needed, but it conforms to the shape of the butt profile better.
Cool! That handguard does look good.
Quote from: wcmartin1 on March 15, 2008, 05:21:39 PM
Cool! That handguard does look good.
Thanks. I like it.
As far as I can tell, there are a couple of different kinds available. I was originally thinking about buying the steel one that someone makes, but I think it attaches to the wood stock with screws. I figure this would make the rifle too hard to field strip, as you'd have to unscrew the handguard screws before you could take the barreled action out of the stock.
The Ram-Line handguard attaches with two metal straps that wrap around the barrel. One goes around just in front of the V-block and has a hole in it that the takedown screw goes throuh. The other passes around the barrel just behind the band. Both band have holes punched in the ends, and there's a sort of nut kinda thing that goes through the two holes on each band. There are two screws that then go through the handguard and into those nuts to hold the handguard on.
This way the handguard is mounted to the barrel and comes out with the barreled action when you field strip the rifle.
I sorta screwed up when I mounted the handguard. I was just about to put the screws in, and lo and behold there was a tube of blue Locktite handy.......and the rest is history! Now, when I try to take the handguard off, the little nut kinda things spin in the two straps! She aint comin' off!
Note to self: Don't use Locktite on handguard screws.
OK, one last step and my LTR will be complete. I need to attach the sling swivels and screws. It appears from the above photos that the front attaches to the barrel band (the Ram Line is a nice touch :) ). Is this correct? And if a rifle has no barrelband, is there any procedure for determining optimum placement of both front and rear swivel? Thanks.
Keith
Quote from: trainsktg on March 16, 2008, 03:35:27 AM
OK, one last step and my LTR will be complete. I need to attach the sling swivels and screws. It appears from the above photos that the front attaches to the barrel band (the Ram Line is a nice touch :) ). Is this correct? And if a rifle has no barrelband, is there any procedure for determining optimum placement of both front and rear swivel? Thanks.
Keith
The QD swivels that I used are made to fit to the front barrel band. If I recall correctly - I put these on years ago and don't recall for sure - I had to file a "gap" between where the band screws together to accept the front swivel. Obviously, if you have no band, then you'll have to improvise. I don't think there's a hard-and-fast rule - probably just look at pics of other rifles and guestimate. I just measured my M1, and its 16-1/4" from the trigger to the front swivel, and on my 10/22 the same measurement is 13-3/4".
THis is how I fit swivels for myself and for others that I have done the work for. The rear swivel should be no closer than 2" to the rear edge of the stock. This is so there is less chance of the stock splitting. I have mine set at 2.5" from the rear. Make sure that you find the centerline of the stock before drilling. I strongly suggest using a center punch to set your mark before drilling. This can be a difficult area to start and nothing is as bad as a drill bit that "walks" on wood. If you do not have a center punch you can get a spring loaded one from Wal-Mart or most any hardware store for $5.00 - $7.00. These work on most any surface that you would be drilling and are very handy to have. If you don't want to get one of these a SMALL phillips screwdriver will work. Tap it gently, you are just trying to set a small (small) indentation to give the drill bit a place to start. Again, make sure that you have the centerline of the stock. This is most important for the rear stud as this will be the narrowest part of the wood and the asthetics are terrible if you get it off line. Make sure that you use a sharp drill bit.
As for the front swivel. The proceedure that I use is easier if you have someone that can help you out. Get into each position and mark the stock where the "valley" between your thumb and index finger is. A dull pencil usually works great for this. I mount the front swivel 2" forward of the most forward mark. This gives room so that the sling does not "pinch" your hand when you are "slung in". It also gives just enough room that you can shoot with a glove on if you need to. Again, I always use a center punch to mark where I want to drill. It gives you that one last chance to make sure that you have the exact center line of the stock and this IS where you want the sling swivel to be. It also keeps the drill bit from walking. Make sure that you are using a sharp drill bit. I have seen wood torn and chipped because the bit was not sharp.
These are not hard and fast manufacturer guidelines or measurements. These are just what has worked for me and with a lot of installations I have done for others. Hope this helps.
golfer7080
Quote from: tpelle on March 15, 2008, 08:42:32 AM
But Garands and M14's have the BEST irons ever put on a rifle, IMHO!
That's exactly why I put an actual M14 front sight on mine.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/Snake45/M14Sight1022.jpg)
I used a Williams front sight riser, and hand-filed the top part of it to match the M14 sight's dovetail. I have an old Redfield peep on the rear, but the M14 sight height should work fine with any of the currently available Williams peeps as well, if my measurements are correct. One of these days I'm going to get around to filing a dovetail in a common Weaver 10/22 scope base and drifting an M1 carbine sight into that--again, my measurements show it should work.
These options are IMHO a little more visually attractive (and lower, which means a better cheek weld) than the Tech Sights.
Snake, you're a genius!
As far as I can tell, the only thing really cheesy with the Tech Sights is the front sight base - it doesn't fit in the dovetail very precisely, and only works because you can cinch it down with the setscrew. I really like your idea, although, honestly, I'm not too sure that the M1 Carbine sight is all that great. I have a (dreaded) Universal with the later style sight on it, the one with the slider for elevation, and it feels sort of flimsy to me. It does adjust for windage with 'clicks' though, so it would be better than the standard Williams RG aperture sight.
After reading this very informative thread I'm still wondering about swivel configuration. I purchased the swivel screw set that attaches to the front barrel band. For sling shooting, would it be best to attach the screw to the fore-stock and remove the barrel band preventing slight flexing of the barrel under tension?
If I upgraded the stock to get away from the barrel band altogether, should I avoid one with a top cover (Tapco) vs. one without, (Hogue) for the same reason?
I would argue that it's more important whether you like the Tapco stock with the pistol grip and adjustable buttstock or a more traditional stock like the Hogue.
I have a Hogue on a 10/22 and like it well.
I also have a Tapco on an SKS (I know - different animal) and like the pistol grip and flexibility of the adjustable buttstock.
Either will work well. It's matter of preference. I would not be concerned with the "top cover" (upper handguard) on the Tapco.
Good luck, Sir.
Thor's Hammer and I both have Tapco stocks on both 10/22 and SKS, and have outfitted both with front and rear M-14 swivels from Numrich Gun Parts, closely mimicing our M1A's, in addition to being much stronger. Also, when installing my Tapco 10/22 stock, I cut off the front 1 1/2 " of the upper forearm cover and used it as a sort of barrel band, after glass-bedding the barrel into the forearm of the stock. This also allows a very solid attachment for the M-14 swivels.
Longshot
Stick with the band mounted swivel. It's been my experience at a few Appleseeds that the folks who remove the band suffer for a while then put it back when they want to shoot acurately. JB
Quote from: Junior Birdman on March 23, 2008, 02:22:14 PM
Stick with the band mounted swivel. It's been my experience at a few Appleseeds that the folks who remove the band suffer for a while then put it back when they want to shoot acurately. JB
Thanks JB, seems to me I could get an adequate sling tension without tourqueing steel. Not having tried yet I don't really know. I'm more inclined to keep the stock for my first Appleseed if I can just go that route. After that I'll be a better judge of what I want in a stock long term. I hope to get an AR so the Tapco looks good. I get the feeling learning marksmanship Appleseed-style might be easier on the Hogue, cheek-weld and all. Installing swivels looks pretty simple, so does changing a stock.
The stock carbine stock was too short for me so I replaced it with a Houge because it seemed to work better with the Tech Sights. I now want to build another 1022 with a scope and a stock with a higher cheek piece. Tommy
If I may jump in and give my opinion....
I purchased the barrel band sling mount, used it for 50 round the removed it. It actually came loose under proper sling tension. I also found, and the instructor at the shoot also noticed, that the barrel band was also torqing the barrel and POI at about 1/4 to 3/8" of POA down range. I would venture to recommend staying away from the barrel band mount. I ended up drilling just behind the barrel band (its now removed ) where the carbine stock drops off to fit the barrel band. Right there, just behind the band, and about 1" from the butt of the stock (mounting points I mean) are really close dimensions to a M1As sling mounts.
Each rifle is a different page of the book. Shoot enough of them and you'll see.
My experience is anything touching a barrel is bbbaaaaddddd. Between barrel vibration and the barrel heating up I've seen movement of the rounds on the target as the number of shots in the group grows.
The above statement may not be true for some rifles. I just know that when I encountered one that had an issue and checked the barrel was usually contacting the stock channel somewhere.
For what it's worth, my 10/22 has a US Enfield rear sling swivel (attached with the correct two screws). If it worked on a US Enfield in combat in WW1 it should do fine on my little 10/22. The front sling swivel is an M14 front sling swivel (attached with two allen head screws, heads outside, flat washer and locknuts countersunk into the stock below the barrel channel). Again, if that sling swivel was tough enough for an M14 it will do fine on the 10/22. Slling? USGI 1 & 1/4" cotton web of course.
I left my barrel band on the rifle as it does not seem to affect the groups, but I'm not pulling on it with the sling.
I think if I replaced the stock I'd like the Tapco for the pistol grip. I worry the traditional stock could aggravate some tendonitis I'm having in my right wrist. A pistol grip would straighten out the wrist right? I shot last night and the wrist didn't like the standard position. The too-slick plastic shoulder piece probably needs to go too. Thing is, Midway has Hogues on sale for $54.00. Tapco's are $89.00 from CTD. They both look plenty solid for sling shooting. The Dreganov type ones look like you could break them with a sling. Is that possible? Does the Tapco work OK for Appleseed despite it's adjustable stock? It looks pretty solid. Polymer is "growing" on me. All my LTR parts have been received. A stock is my last decision.
I had feeding problems big-time with my new BC hot lips mags w/ federal bulk. I'll have to dedicate a range session to really checking them out before I dispair. My old ramlines always worked OK. Probably should have sprung for the Steel Lips.
I have a Choate Dragunov stock on my LTR. No way are you going to break it with a sling. I don't know about the ATI version. The Tapco stock has gotten good reviews. Check around- a lot of places sell the Tapco stock and prices will vary. You might find a deal somewhere.
muxtex,
I got my tapco t-6 stocks on ebay. That is where I bought mine. Here is a link for a tan version that is selling for $70.53 + $14.00 shipping. If you don't like tan and can wait a few days they usually come up for about $70.00-$75.00.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Tapco-6-Position-Stock-Set-Desert-Tan-for-Ruger-10-22_W0QQitemZ310033505751QQihZ021QQcategoryZ310QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQ_trksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcmdZViewItem (ftp://http://cgi.ebay.com/Tapco-6-Position-Stock-Set-Desert-Tan-for-Ruger-10-22_W0QQitemZ310033505751QQihZ021QQcategoryZ310QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQ_trksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcmdZViewItem)
Quote from: Cache on March 01, 2008, 01:07:56 AM
Since there is this new emphasis on using .22 caliber rifles at AS...
AND since the current AQT is scored based on 30 cal. hole sizes... (am I right on that?)
May it be resolved that there might be a niche for an AQT with scoring lines adjusted for .22 caliber hole as opposed to superimposing a 30 cal shell over a 22 cal hole to judge the 'close ones'?
(http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/anim_sniper2.gif)
Nah, no need to adjusting the lines, just score it as-is. Same with .223 ... never liked the "thurty cal adjustment" quirk --- seems not using it will just mean you'll end up shooting more accurately in the long run.
For those of us who prefer AR type rifles, Brownell's is now carrying a new product to dress up the 10/22 in the AR style. The AR22 Receiver Chassis.
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/productdetail.aspx?p=26206&mc_ID=3011 (http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/productdetail.aspx?p=26206&mc_ID=3011)
The front sight may be tricky. One could possibly use a 10/22 heavy barrel, turned down in a lathe if necessary, and an actual AR front sight base. There are tons of rear sight options for a flattop AR.
It's a little spendy, but I may eventually get one for my wife to complement her MBR (after, of course, I finally build her MBR). It's probably less expensive than a dedicated .22 upper, though.
I have no affiliation with Brownell's except as a regular customer.
Clod
WAHOO!!!
Just got back from picking up my 10/22 for my LTR build. Lots of ideas...doubt I'll even take it shooting tomorrow...too much to do with my Appleseed primary and backup rifles...
As far as my plan, its changed a little...the stock will need some work. Its about 3/4" shorter in length of pull than my Hogue-equipped pet 10/22...so its either get an extension (VERY likely) or get a new stock (likely, but not for a while).
I plan to:
- install some type of ghost-ring sights...prolly gonna be Tech-Sights (might be XS, though)
- work the hammer (I've got 2 spares from other builds I've done on 10/22s)
- install bolt buffer
- trim factory mag release to match the VQ one in my other 10/22
- install sling (mounts, et al.)
- install better extractor (VQ or Power Custom)
- install flash hider (I just like them...low on the list, for sure!)
- learn how to shoot like I know I can (on the cheap)
Thanks for the ideas, guys. This is going to be a good little rifle...and good experience, to boot!
Byrdman
FWIW, I ordered Tech-Sights on a Friday afternoon and received them the following Monday. I was impressed with the very quick shipping.
Quote from: Steelheart on March 15, 2008, 04:14:04 AM
Has anyone had a chance to try out one of the extended front sight posts? I got my sights installed last week and took it out today for a rough zero session (no sling/mounts yet and table was still under a snowdrift). Its close but I don't want to raise that front sight anymore and the rear is maxed.
Here's the sight post at Midway:
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=810857
DPMS has it cheaper but it looks like it will take them longer to ship and I don't want to wait. Figures, I just received a Midway order too, guess I'll have to find some more stuff there to order...
Steelheart
I just got back from Searsboro and felt that since I had answered my own question I should share it with anyone who was wondering.
The taller front sight post does give enough adjustment. However, after thinking about it I'd suggest getting the T100 rear sight and calling it good. Its cheaper and you can still adjust the elevation with the front.
I also suggest (and will be ordering in the near future) one of those automatic bolt releases. It is a real pain in the rear end trying to unlock your bolt from the rear on the firing line. I hadn't realized this previously as I don't normally practice from a locked back bolt.
Steelheart
I'd like to just point out one thing... when folks say to LocTite the sights down...
DO IT!!!!
They may not work loose for your average range trip, but over the course of a 2 day Appleseed, ESPECIALLY if you're shooting with Nickle and doing 40-round, 4 minute (rapid fire) AQT after AQT, they WILL work loose over the course of 500 rounds.
Please do not ask me how I know this. (http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a29/canthsrider/smilies/blush-anim-cl.gif)
Quote from: Steelheart on April 21, 2008, 02:35:32 AM
I also suggest (and will be ordering in the near future) one of those automatic bolt releases. It is a real pain in the rear end trying to unlock your bolt from the rear on the firing line. I hadn't realized this previously as I don't normally practice from a locked back bolt.
Steelheart
Please don't waste your money. I'll post pics (if I can figure out how, or I can email them to you) of the only difference between the stock bolt release and the auto...you just need to cut less than 1/8" of metal off.
Its easy, and I don't want you to have to spend any money on it you don't have to!
Lemme tear my 10/22 down and get the pics.
Byrdman
The info on the Bolt Release is on RimfireCentral.com forum.
Quote from: dwarven1 on April 21, 2008, 08:27:43 AM
I'd like to just point out one thing... when folks say to LocTite the sights down...
DO IT!!!!
They may not work loose for your average range trip, but over the course of a 2 day Appleseed, ESPECIALLY if you're shooting with Nickle and doing 40-round, 4 minute (rapid fire) AQT after AQT, they WILL work loose over the course of 500 rounds.
Please do not ask me how I know this. (http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a29/canthsrider/smilies/blush-anim-cl.gif)
I might have a real good understanding about this... I only used my LTR the first day (ran my AR the 2nd). I got home and the front sight was loose in the case....
MCKNBRD & Nickle, I did some digging and found the info (that I had seen previously and forgotten about) on Rimfirecentral.com. IF I screw mine up then I'll order the Vol. part. Here's the link for anyone else who's thinking about this:
http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30867
Steelheart
LTR report from Canon City
My LTR that I put together in the past month or so is my first rifle I've seriously tried to shoot (prior to this, I've had a plinking AR-7 variant and a lever action...barely used), so I'm NOT a serious rifle shooter and never have been.
SO, I put together my LRT, broke it in with a stack of rounds, and headed to my first Appleseed before bad habits could set in.
After a couple rounds of shooting, the front Tech-sight fell off (so THAT'S why the rear sight was all the way to the left!). Back on with a small shim and more loctite, this newbie...remember, carbine with stock trigger and barrel, and only the suggestions in this thread...managed a 197...while not getting 2 rounds off during the sitting stage.
LTR is a great learning tool, and despite what I read elsewhere (where everyone is telling people to get expensive barrels and trigger assemblies), is perfectly capable. Thanks to Funfaler and all the others who answered my questions along the way!
Quote from: cj on April 21, 2008, 02:27:23 PMLTR is a great learning tool, and despite what I read elsewhere (where everyone is telling people to get expensive barrels and trigger assemblies), is perfectly capable.
Hear, hear! What he said. ;D
My LTR has a trigger job (by Nickle), a Weaver K7 scope, an extended mag release, an auto bolt release and a sling. That's it. About the only things I want to do to it still are to replace the takedown screw with an Allen head version (and buy a small torque wrench to tighten it with, so I can make it the same tightness each time) and get a new scope base so I can mount the scope a little farther forward (I need more eye relief to be comfortable). Barrel, springs, trigger & hammer... they're all fine the way they are.
A drop of Loctite on the takedown screw is a good idea too. Use the low-strength variants (purple or blue) NOT the high-strength red or green. That way you can take it apart to clean it when needed without it loosening up during use.
Actually, I just discovered something interesting. I'd posted on rimfirecentral.com about my takedown screw loosening up in the middle of what would have been a VERY good AQT, and they mentioned that frequently the takedown screw is just a bit too long, and it hits the barrel when it's screwed in, and the constant pounding loosens it up. Just looked at one of my LTRs, and sonova#$%^& if they're not right!!
So, put it in a vise (in between a couple of pieces of wood) and took 1/16th" or so off of it. Should be interesting next time I take it out to a shoot.
If you have issues with the takedown screw loosening up, check that out next time you have it apart.
Interesting note, Dwarven1. I had at least one crummy AQT (although somehow my target ended up with 13 holes on one stage, so I wasn't the only one!) with a loose takedown screw (I'll claim credit for all my other crummy ones though :) ), so I started whipping out my multitool during each prep phase and doing a tightening up. I had been considering an o-ring or teflon tape to try to hold things together a bit, but I'll need to see if it's tapping the barrel.
Any suggestions on the easiest way to check that?
Oops... thought I posted that. (http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a29/canthsrider/smilies/blush-anim-cl.gif)
Take the action out of the stock and shine a flashlight down the screwhole - it's right near where the barrel is attached to the receiver. If the screw is touching the barrel, you'll see bare metal where the bluing has rubbed off from the screw hitting it. Looked like a faint ring on mine.
It's amazing how I could find out that info so fast. One post on an internet forum and I learned something new...
I don't understand what the auto bolt release solves. My 10/22 is a 1991 std carbine. I insert a mag, pull back the handle and let go. Ready to shoot. What's to automate?
Muxtek, with a the stock 10/22, when the bolt is latched open (like when the chamber flag is in and your gun is down on your shooting mat between stages), you need two hands to unlatch it. The modified bolt release allows you to simply pull back on the bolt when the bolt is open and let go - no need to manipulate the bolt release while you're doing it.
I only need one hand. Trigger finger works the release, thumb works the bolt.
Showoff! Realistically, most Newbies/kids don't have the hand strength and dexterity to do that.
Thanks, that makes sense. It was the only accessory I bought that I wasn't totally sure what it did. I'll be retrofitting in the next week or two. All I'm waiting on is a stock.
Mux
Quote from: didactic on April 27, 2008, 06:25:34 PM
Showoff! Realistically, most Newbies/kids don't have the hand strength and dexterity to do that.
Disagree. I've got about half the mobility in my hands that I used to, and it shouldn't be that long of a reach even for kids. Someone just needs to show em.
I've seen a lot of folks have problems with that bolt release. I guess it's a little tricky till you get the hang of pulling back on the bolt handle while pushing upwards on the top forward edge of the release. Once you get the hang of it then it's no big deal.
I just put the TSR200 sights on my Wal-Mart 22" 10/22 and added a Volquartsen extended magazine release and automatic bolt release. Now all I'm waiting for is some swivel studs to come in and I'm ready to go. I picked up a saddle ridge "super sling 2" to put on it when the studs get in, I've had pretty good luck with it on other rifles.
First off, who thought it would be a good idea to spraypaint the receiver? That seems dumb to me.
Secondly does anyone have any suggestions for making the elevation adjustment on the rear sight a bit easier? Mine seems to be very, very stiff.
It is stiff, but also realize that it, too, has a detent - push the dial in towards the end of the barrel. Perhaps use the nose of a .22 HP to help you push it in.
Hi there!
Having attended my first Appleseed on the 19th I am somewhat stoked about leaving cook status and becoming a rifleman. To further that goal I immediately began shopping for a 10/22 to build into an LTR - something I can afford to shoot a whole lot. The disturbing thread(s) I found on the Internet last week indicate that Ruger is going (has gone) to a plastic trigger assembly (along with plastic barrel bands on those models that have bands).
The link that provides the most evidence (based on my limited surfing) is:
http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=23311
Having seen these reports, I scampered down to Wally World last Saturday to get that 22" stainless they're selling for $238 - the picture on their website shows a stainless (i.e. silvery) trigger assembly. Well, the trigger assembly was definitely plastic, black plastic.
In this neck of the woods (AZ), Big 5 Sports has a sale this week on 10/22's - $219.99 for the standard RB model. I went to my local Big 5 this afternoon and their rifles (2 in stock) both had metal trigger assemblies.
If you're looking to build an LTR, and you don't like plastic, you might want to move quickly or buy used. Wally World is into that just-in-time inventory thing, i.e. they don't renew stock until they're out/almost out of stock so they're probably not the source for an LTR these days. A real gun shop probably still has all-metal Rugers, but it looks like they're going away quickly.
Lastly, based on what I saw, Ruger's plastic doesn't seem to be the same stuff Glock uses, they're using real plastic.
I wonder if only Walmart is getting the plastic rifle. That would be pretty usual for them, to demand an even cheaper item. Hopefully Ruger will continue to make metal rifles for the real gun shops.
Quote from: Rhandhali on April 28, 2008, 10:25:32 PM
I just put the TSR200 sights on my Wal-Mart 22" 10/22 and added a Volquartsen extended magazine release and automatic bolt release. Now all I'm waiting for is some swivel studs to come in and I'm ready to go. I picked up a saddle ridge "super sling 2" to put on it when the studs get in, I've had pretty good luck with it on other rifles.
First off, who thought it would be a good idea to spraypaint the receiver? That seems dumb to me.
Secondly does anyone have any suggestions for making the elevation adjustment on the rear sight a bit easier? Mine seems to be very, very stiff.
My elevation adjustment is stiff also. After turning it a few times it seems to have gotten easier.
I striped all the silver paint from my receiver and polished it untill it looked like stainless. It looked great but I ended up repainting it (exterior only) with satin black ceramic engine paint. Looks better than the sliver and matches the trigger now.
The auto bolt release in mandatory, should be that way from the factory.
Quote from: Nishnabotna on April 29, 2008, 08:43:42 AM
I wonder if only Walmart is getting the plastic rifle. That would be pretty usual for them, to demand an even cheaper item. Hopefully Ruger will continue to make metal rifles for the real gun shops.
Basspro recently had a sale on the 10/22 for $159.88. The ad showed the 20" barrel, no band model. I went to the nearest Basspro and was told that "Ruger isn't making that model this year" and here's the replacement. The carbine with barrel band and cheap stock.
It has a longer mag release but it is plastic. The trigger housing is plastic. The barrel band is plastic. Looks like plastic is the "new ruger 10/22." All hte models Basspro had had plastic components.
Although, I did buy one because used one's are difficult to find and cost as much or more than the sale price.
Why are you getting excited over plastic barrel bands? I've taken the barrel bands off of all my LTRs - they don't do anything useful and can affect accuracy if you put a sling on them.
Now, plastic trigger assemblies is Not A Good Thing, I agree.
I bought a carbine model a few days ago at Dick's Sporting Goods. The 3 they had in the rack all had metal parts. It's not just WalMart that has them with plastic parts. All new 10/22s being shipped from the factory now have it. If you hunt around, you may be able to find new old stock with the metal.
Quote from: dwarven1 on April 29, 2008, 03:07:12 PM
Why are you getting excited over plastic barrel bands? I've taken the barrel bands off of all my LTRs - they don't do anything useful and can affect accuracy if you put a sling on them.
After reading a net article in which a guy took the band off his 10/22 and groups tightened, and then floated the barrel and groups tightened a good deal more, I tried the same thing with both my 10/22s.
After testing with several kinds of ammo, neither rifle shot more accurately with the band removed. One shot (slightly) better with the barrel full floated, the other shot best with the band in place. The lesson: Your Mileage May Vary. ;D
I now have the barrel floated on the one that liked that (and the band ground out to clear the barrel), and the band in place on the one that liked that.
Remember that the 10/22 has only a single action screw. On a stock rifle, the barrel's contact with the forend and the band's contact with the barrel are, essentially, the other "action screw" (or can be, if things are working properly). In working with other "single screw" rifles (ex: Remington 581, Winchester 69A), I've learned that they can be expected to deliver better accuracy with some foreend pressure providing a bit of consistent tension in the whole barrelled action.
Every gun and ammo combination is a law unto itself. You have to experiment and test to find out what works best for YOU. Don't take anyone else's word for it.
I bought a stainless Walmart 10/22 a couple weeks ago and although the trigger group originally looked plastic to me it is actually painted/powdercoated metal, and works just fine. A dremel with wire brush took care of the paint in the action.
A new Ruger from a gunshop had the plastic trigger group (complete with line from the mold).
Greg
Snake45 knows what he's talking about. Each rifle is a little different than the one right next to it in the rack. Find out what works best for your rifle by experimenting before you start removing part and chucking them in the can.
My 10/22 still carries it's barrel band and if I do my part the groups are just larger than 1/2" at 25 yds. Never tried it without the band because those groups are good enough. That is only with the Remington Golden Bullets though. Tried the Federal bulk boxes and Remington Thunderbolts but the Golden Bullets were the best.
Wondering if anyone has a good idea for how to stop my scope mount screws from loosening on my 10/22.
I'm getting ready for an Appleseed in Yakima on June 7, and so I took it out today to sight in with a new scope.
I found after about 100rds that the small screws securing it to the receiver had loosened a fair bit.
I've read somewhere that purple locktite (222) is the way to go. Anyone used it to good effect?
Alternatively, I've got no problems epoxying the base to the receiver - just to make sure. Has anyone
done this and how well will it work with the relatively smooth surfaces of receiver and mount?
Any advice welcome..
S.
A small amount of loktite is common and works well.
I just torqued the hell out of the screws on mine.
I've had good success with blue (medium strength) Loctite. Kitchen-table gunsmith's alternative is clear finger nail polish.
I should mention that the receiver is aluminum and the screws steel, so I didn't want to torque
the heck out of it for fear of stripping the holes..
Two big thumbs up to the Loctite recommendation. I used it on the screw for my Tech-SIGHTS and it has held wonderfully.
I finished my LTR build and I've been breaking in my new Butler Creek hot lips mags and mag loader. My front (tech) sight fell off at the range last week so I'll be applying the loctite I bought. I had constant FTE with Federal Bulk (walmart). Switched to CCI mini mags and FTE's ceased. How to best lube the bolt/action to cycle the 10/22 with lower velocity ammo? Also, hollowpoints cut a nicer more visible hole in paper than round nose bullets. The CCI mini mags were unusually waxy, I'm not sure I want all that wax build-up in my magazines and loader. I want to try the Remington Golden bullets but could not find them at walmart. I'll try Gander next week. I also want to find some skateboard tape to apply to my furniture stock plastic butt plate, (I decided to forego a new stock for now). The ruger stock lines my eye up with the iron sights so I decided to keep it simple at my first Appleseed and focus more on the software. I want to guard against feeding problems so I can concentrate on marksmanship.
I really like the CCI Standard Velocity!
I like to lube the bolt, firing pin, inside of receiver, etc. with either Break-free clp or Corrosion-X. Spray some on, wipe off all you can, and it's good to go. This assumes an unpainted or paint removed receiver interior. Most will then cycle standard velocity .22 LR's if nothing's binding on a rough burr of metal or bent part somewhere.
SOME rifles group standard velocity a little better, some don't.
YMMV, or others may have better ideas.
Quote from: muxtek on May 26, 2008, 04:21:18 PMI had constant FTE with Federal Bulk (walmart). Switched to CCI mini mags and FTE's ceased. How to best lube the bolt/action to cycle the 10/22 with lower velocity ammo?
RE that, read my last couple posts in this thread (page 3): http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=371.40.
Sounds like you were working with a bad lot of the Fed Bulks, as I had a couple boxes of the stuff do exactly the same thing this weekend. Bad lots of this stuff used to be rare but of the Fed Bulks I've bought lately, they seem to be the rule, not the exception. A GOOD lot of that ammo, that's performing the way it should, should run your 10/22 as reliably as any .22 ammo available at any price. Take note of the lot number on the box, and DON'T buy any more of that lot number!
Thanks for the info guys. I'll try it. Snake, thanks for the link. I liked what you wrote about the various sounds the ammo makes. That was so true. I'll try another lot and see what happens. I can always use it in my single six if it's questionable.
Regarding lubrication, I have a can of the Rem oil spray. Would that be better than nothing?
rem oil is what I use on my 10/22, my AR and my M1A as well as my M1 trigger groups.
That oughta answer fine. Main rule: Spray some in, wipe out as much as you can, put it back together. What you can't wipe out is the right amount to leave. You don't want it dripping with lubricant, that just holds dust and powder residue, gunks up faster and causes problems sooner.
On semi-auto pistols I often use some of that high-tech grease (several brands) that comes in the little syringes, put some on the slide rails and other high-stress points of contact. Spread it around with a q-tip, remove excess. Might not do any good, just makes me feel better. I've never done this with a 10/22, shouldn't hurt if you want to, to slick up the bolt's fore-and-aft travel.
I have the blued 10/22 and I use carb cleaner or brake cleaner to blow all the old lube, powder residue and carbon out of the trigger assembly and the receiver. Then when it dries out good I clean the barrel with Hoppes and relube with the rem oil. I remove the action/barrel from the stock before cleaning.
I also use the carb or brake cleaner on my CAR, my M1A and my M1 and then relube with rem oil. No issues yet. I do my best to keep the carb cleaner off the CARs plastic stock and fore end. No use taking a chance on melting it since carb cleaner will melt some plastics.
If you go the carb/brake cleaner route remember to get oil back on all the metal surfaces as ALL OIL will be stripped off and they will rust if you don't get a protective film of oil back on them.
My LTR... No problems getting a 25M zero with the as-supplied front sight post... Zero problems this weekend at the Appleseed with the Wally World bulk packaged Federal Match rounds... I use CLP exclusively for cleaning and lubing.....
(http://usw247.org/Recreation/ltr5.jpg)
I have a 10/22 with the shorter barrel, 18.5 in, I think, and I'm thinking of making a LTR out of it. Am I at a serious handicap with the shorter barrel?
Quote from: Burke on May 27, 2008, 10:16:23 PM
I have a 10/22 with the shorter barrel, 18.5 in, I think, and I'm thinking of making a LTR out of it. Am I at a serious handicap with the shorter barrel?
Not as far as accuracy, velocity, reliability, or any other objective factor. Only in things like sight radius, "feel," and so forth. Your barrel will work for you just fine.
Here's another way to build an LTR. I like this one so much, I'm going to build myself one just like it:
http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1877608&posted=1#post1877608
Did a search for "cleaning" on the forum home page.
Here's several links to check with many pages of opinions and experiences:
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=411.0
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=683.0
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=2231.0
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=557.0
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=1559.0
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=685.0
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=955.0
Good luck, Sir.
22 rim fire,
Try Fiocchi, just the regular stuff. Very Consistent, Allways.
Coly
Quote from: colycat on May 28, 2008, 09:47:08 PM
22 rim fire,
Try Fiocchi, just the regular stuff. Very Consistent, Allways.
Coly
I'll check it out. I bought the Remington Golden bullets. Still having FTE's in my LTR. I tried some Federal Champion 510 from Gander and they ran better, but still. I ran a hundred rounds of each brand and struggled to get through a 10 rd Butler Creek mag without a stoppage and crushed brass. I used to shoot thunderbolts from 25 rd ramlines and hardly ever had a stoppage. The gun is clean and I applied Rem oil per the above. I bought 6 of the hot lipps mags. I hope they're not the problem. When I remove the mag and lock the bolt back, a live round and a bent case fall out. I'm still hearing stronger and weaker bangs, and on good bangs it runs good. At least I'm getting good at clearing stoppages. It's not a huge deal but I'd like to bring reliable gear to my first Appleseed next weekend near Canton Ohio.
The Steel Lips work much better than the Hot Lips. I have yet to have a stovepipe or extraction/ejection problem yet with Steel Lips that wasn't obviously caused by underpowered ammo. (A 10/22's primary ejector is on the left lip of the magazine.)
One more question regarding the BC mags. The first thing I noticed was they don't fit as solid into the receiver as the ramlines. If I put my finger on the bottom tip of any of them they will wiggle slightly side to side like a loose tooth. They are properly seated. Could I be loosing pressure out of a gap causing poor cycling? Just wondering. If I decide I hate them will Midway take them back? We're talking around a hundred bucks for four 10 rd and two 25 rd. I've probably had them longer than 90 days but not by much.
Guys, do you notice how many complaints there are about the Butler Creek mags? See that many about the factory 10 round mags? No?
That would be why I run factory mags only in my 10/22s. For a buck or two more, it's worth it.
I called Midway. The steel lips are on the way. Hot lips are going back. What can I say? I like magazines with a handle. ;D
They should just drop free - there are some molding spots on the front of the factory mags that occasionally need touching up as they'll have some flashing there sometimes. If you are experiencing hangups, just get them smoothed out and the mags will drop free. I've had to do that on a few mags.
I only use 10 rnd mags, Ruger.
But I have spent up to 10 bucks a box for "match ammo". In ever 10 rnds there is always one that is a flyer. Sounds different, you can tell right away. Not with Fiocchi! Fiocchi are your reading? AS ought to get some support!!!!!
Coly
A LOT of shooters have made the Rifleman cut by using factory mags.
Plus, the Ruger OEM mags/ mag releases are also the fastest reloads out there. Not as cool, but practical. I like the extended release and mags only to make it more like the MOA for the M14, but I can reload a lot faster with the OEM stuff with less chance of fumbling. JB
Yes, get the extended mag release. My mags drop out just fine on both of my 10-22's
Coly
The thing that bothers me about an upside down magazine is that sooner or later it'll end up top down in the dirt.
You only have a shooting mat at an Appleseed/RBC. In the field you got the grass, the weeds, the leaves and the dirt.
Would you stick your AR or M1A mags together upside down?
Now the little extension glued to the bottom of the factory mag. looks like it would be a good thing to help get a grip on the mag for changes.
I have some of those eagle 10 round jobs with the tab on the back that work the factory mag. release similar to my M1A.
I've never been able to figure out the use or purpose of those dohickies that clip two or four 10/22 magazines together. None for me, thanks, you can have all mine.
Quote from: Arc on May 30, 2008, 12:19:22 PM
That's cool Snake45, you can send them to me!
I meant, I left all "mine" at the store. You can pick them up there. ;D
Since the purpose of the LTR is to train shooters in the basics and to mimic as closely as possible the MBRs, the purpose of the E&L Mfg connectors is to make the magazine hang down just like the MBR. No more, no less, and it does this well. If you have an AR it mimics the drop out or pull out. If you have an M14 it mimics the web of the hand pushing through the release and pushihg the mag out. I don't know what the deal is with the one that connects 4 of 'em together though. :D JB
Quote from: Junior Birdman on May 30, 2008, 05:44:38 PM
Since the purpose of the LTR is to train shooters in the basics and to mimic as closely as possible the MBRs, the purpose of the E&L Mfg connectors is to make the magazine hang down just like the MBR.
Just like
what MBR? The 10/22 LTR is a fine little rifle in its own right but it doesn't come close to mimicking any MBR I can think of (M1 carbine with the early type pushbutton safety would be about the closest). I keep trying to tell this to the guys who want to spend five or six hundred bucks trying to make their 10/22s into "AR-15 trainers/simulators." It just ain't happening. You want an AR training rifle, build one up on a dedicated .22 upper, or at least put a Ciener or M261 into an AR.
As I've said before. I've got down in a good sling supported prone position, gone through my NPOA drill, and I'm about to put some holes in the black part of the target, when suddenly my mind goes left because my trigger finger just ain't findin' that dang M1/M1A safety in the front of the trigger guard. I'm so "stunned" I raise my head up off the stock to find out where that dang safety went only to realize its my 10/22,not my M1.
If that's not tricking your mind (pretty important I think) into believing you've got hold of your MBR, I don't know what is.
Recoil only matters if your position is weak and you have to reposition between shots (or after a couple). I cannot remember a time when I was concious of recoil with an M1 or M1A except when it disturbs that sight picture. After a few shots I don't even conciously think about that. It's part of the process and I think my mind accepts it and ignores it as long as my position is strong enough that the sights settle back on the target.
To me that 10/22 is a great substitute for my M1 or M1A - for the process of firing the shot. All the controls may not be the same, all the reload steps may not be the same, but for putting the 6 steps to use, finding my NPOA and putting holes in the black, it's hard to beat.
quote "Francis Marion has a Ciener kit for his preban Colt Sportster AR15. I observed the groups, and they are not as good as .223 cartridge. Makes sense because a .22 round is smaller than a .223 round by about .002" or so.
Five or six hundred bacon cheeseburger frosties spent on a 10/22 look-alike could be spent on a AR-15 .22 upper. Waste of money IMO to convert the 10/22 into something it is not, and still not be something it is not.
[/quote]
My Ceiner in my CAR shoots "one torn hole groups" at 25 meters, ask crashkid2k, he's seen it. Maybe it's the ammo, not the rifle.
My 10/22 trainer cost me a total of $220. You don't need the special triggers, barrels, stocks, etc. It's your money, but its not necessary to get a good shooting LTR.
If you want a 10/22 magazine that hangs down, but not TOO far, check out the Ram Line doublestack 25 rounder. It works pretty well, too--not quite as good as the BC Steel Lips, but it works fine with good ammo (the BC Steel works better with marginal ammo).
I don't understand the desire to have anything but a factory 10 rd Ruger Mag for the AQT. Reliability alone should be enough motivation.
Since we're speaking of magazines, Midway has the Ruger 10 rnd. factory magazines on sale for $10.99 (blue color) and 12.99 (clear).
I'm not getting anywhere using a brass punch on my front sight. Any suggestions before I try to find a smith with the proper tools? Thanks.
I just installed my tech sights last week.
I think the instructions say to TAP the old sight out. I think it was more of a WHACK to get mine started. Comes out fairly easy after it gets started.
Make sure the barrel end is supported and drive it left to right. A good wack with a hammer using a brass punch should do the trick.....
Do I hear 27...
I attended my first Appleseed over the weekend and wanted to know where to get the front G.I. sling attachment point (I don't know what it's called, can ya tell?) that I saw screwed to the 10/22 stock. Anyone know?
nothing fancy - cave man basic if most besterester
Quote from: wtr100 on June 02, 2008, 02:21:27 PM
nothing fancy - cave man basic if most besterester
Uh... what?
There is more than one way to skin a cat.
Some folks go to walmart and buy the uncle mike's sling swivel installation kit and just install those (get the 1&1/4" wide set of sling swivels so a GI web sling works). The kit should have instructions telling you how to install the posts into the stock. If you have a wood stock be sure to get the kit made for wood stocks (or if you have the synthectic stock get the kit for that).
I used an M14 front swivel which is attached to the forend with two allen head screws (the nuts/washers are countersunk in the barrel channel so they don't contact the barrel.)
Student used two US Enfield rear sling swivels (one screwed to the butt stock and one screwed to the fore end) on his 10/22.
There are probably more ways to do it.
Quote from: deolexrex on June 02, 2008, 02:30:03 PM
Quote from: wtr100 on June 02, 2008, 02:21:27 PM
nothing fancy - cave man basic if most besterester
Uh... what?
May want some of these, too...
Quote from: wcmartin1 on March 15, 2008, 01:29:40 PM
Extra web sling clips at Numrich. It's the second item on the page. Here's the link:
http://www.e-gunparts.com/search_beta.asp?search=slings&srchMfgr=&srchModel=&MfgrType=&ModelType=1&DescType=2&ModelSelect=0&MfgrSelect=0&Page=
ok for the humor impaired - who's got a nice simple weaver base the screw into a 10/22 receiver?
ugh! ugh! ugh!
Quote from: wtr100 on June 02, 2008, 03:00:33 PM
ok for the humor impaired - who's got a nice simple weaver base the screw into a 10/22 receiver?
ugh! ugh! ugh!
Weaver makes one. I think it might be called the T9 or T09. Very commonly found at gun shops and gun shows, all internet suppliers, even some Walmarts stock them. Only about $8. Cool thing about this base it that you can use either Weaver rings or common .22 3/8" dovetail rings on it.
I think this
QuoteM14 front swivel
may be what I'm looking for... sorry for the noob questions.
Quote from: wtr100 on June 02, 2008, 03:00:33 PM
ok for the humor impaired - who's got a nice simple weaver base the screw into a 10/22 receiver?
ugh! ugh! ugh!
The new 10/22s ship with a weaver style base. I'll have one you can have when my Tech-Sights come in. PM me your address.
Byrdman
Two things I bought with my LTR supplies were the sight adjustment tool and the rear sight rapidex windage knob (AR-15). I think I figured out the tool, (skinny end front, wide end rear sight). So the wider windage knob replaces the relatively flat knob on the right side of the rear tech-sight. That right? Any pointers? Which way does it go?
I received 5 steel lips 10 rd BC mags today. I plan to try them Wed 6/4. I'll let you know how they do.
Quote from: MCKNBRD on June 02, 2008, 10:36:56 PM
Quote from: wtr100 on June 02, 2008, 03:00:33 PM
ok for the humor impaired - who's got a nice simple weaver base the screw into a 10/22 receiver?
ugh! ugh! ugh!
The new 10/22s ship with a weaver style base. I'll have one you can have when my Tech-Sights come in. PM me your address.
Byrdman
hmmm maybe I'm asking for the wrong thing - the base that came with min is for a 3/8" .22 scope
I picked up a Barska red dot sight for the wife to use and the stock base is way tooo narrow
what am I looking for?
You are looking for a Weaver style. The last 2 new 10/22s I have purchased came with a factory mount which would accept either the Weaver style rings or the standard "tip off" .22 style mounts. I just picked up a "tactical" style mount which more resembles a 1913/picatinny style rail. It has more slots to give you more flexibility when mounting optics. It was only $8 from Fleet Farm and I think it was Weaver brand. I will have to check when I get home. You can get the Weaver or dual style at any Gander, Sportsman's, Wal Mart, etc...
Quote from: deolexrex on June 02, 2008, 02:06:31 PM
I attended my first Appleseed over the weekend and wanted to know where to get the front G.I. sling attachment point (I don't know what it's called, can ya tell?) that I saw screwed to the 10/22 stock. Anyone know?
Brownells and others also sell a barrel band with a swivel attached to it in addition to the screw in style for wooden stocks which originally didn't come with one....
I using a Hogue stock so I guess I'm going to have to use the regular 1 1/4 swivels.
Quote from: deolexrex on June 03, 2008, 07:47:23 AM
I using a Hogue stock so I guess I'm going to have to use the regular 1 1/4 swivels.
You say that like it is a bad thing... I use a Hogue stock with a standard 1 1/4 swivel and it works A-OK....
Yeah, it will work just fine but I was looking for an attachment point with a little less "swivel".
Quote from: wtr100 on June 03, 2008, 07:13:02 AM
hmmm maybe I'm asking for the wrong thing - the base that came with min is for a 3/8" .22 scope
I picked up a Barska red dot sight for the wife to use and the stock base is way tooo narrow
what am I looking for?
Yeah, thats the OLD style mount. I've got one of the new ones that fits standard or 3/8" rings.
PM me your snail mail addy and I'll send it to you when my Tech-Sights arrive.
Byrdman
Anybody who needs one and misses that freebie, try Natchez Shooters Supply #BQ915514 A $3.56.
Quote from: Junior Birdman on May 30, 2008, 05:44:38 PM
Since the purpose of the LTR is to train shooters in the basics and to mimic as closely as possible the MBRs, the purpose of the E&L Mfg connectors is to make the magazine hang down just like the MBR.
I'm still looking for something that will mimic
my MBR for loading and safety ergonomics... I have an M1 Garand. ;D
Everything arrived yesterday (except the recoil buffer and rapidex knob) to set up my son's youth 10/22 and my used stainless. W00t!
The only trouble is the rear sight. My son's slid right out of its dovetail, but mine won't budge. I've tried smacking it out with a punch and rubber mallet, and it doesn't want to move. Is there some trick I missed? It's a flip-up notch sight with tiny screws for elevation adjustment.
Thanks!
Len.
Keep banging on it. Oh, and make sure you are moving it left to right. (as viewed from the shooter)
M1Guy,
The problem is the rubber hammer. Switch to a steel hammer and tap ligthly. Increase force until it moves and reposition your punch each strike so that it doesn't slip.
VAshooter
Or just leave it -- it doesn't interfere with the Tech-Sights.
Never seen this particular sight, but make sure there is not a (hidden?) set screw locking the sight in the dovetail.
Quote from: VAshooter on June 05, 2008, 10:44:32 AM
The problem is the rubber hammer. Switch to a steel hammer and tap ligthly. Increase force until it moves and reposition your punch each strike so that it doesn't slip.
That did it!
Now I just have to paint it; it was used and had surface defects which I made worse trying to polish with a dremel. So today I sanded the receiver (with 600 sandpaper) almost down to bare metal, which also got the defects out. Tomorrow I plan to mask the inside of the receiver thoroughly, stick a dowel up the barrel (with tape around the crown) and paint it with Krylon camo flat black. Hoping for the best...
--Len
If you degrease it thoroughly, you'll be fine.
I've found the high-temp auto engine or header paint to work even better for gun metal than Krylon camo.
I've never taken a 10/22 seriously, without a scope. The given sights were just too close to the barrel to be comfortable to use. Then a search gives me this thread and I find out about improving the 10/22 and Appleseed. A week later, I have two LTRs built up. I used two of the Gander Mountain 10/22s (nice looking rifles, without the barrel band) for $199.95 till the 15th (http://gandermountain.shoplocal.com/gandermountain/default.aspx?action=detail&storeid=2489520&rapid=0&pagenumber=0&listingid=-2091499448&offerid=&ref=%2fgandermountain%2fdefault.aspx%3faction%3dsearch%26storeid%3d2489520%26searchtext%3d10%252F22%26go%3dGo) and Tech Sights mounted. It really transforms these rifles. One is for me and one for my fiancee. The triggers are pretty stiff, but I want to make sure they run well out at the range, before mod them too much.
I haven't been out shooting in 6 years. It surprises me to say that, but it has been that long. Appleseed has gotten me excited to get back out and truly learn how to shoot a rifle. Fred's target pack is already on the way.
Oh, go ahead and mod the triggers. They really need it! ;D
For those using two Ruger 10 round mags, joined with the 2 way adapter, how do you arrange them? I'm trying to decide if it makes more sense to have both mags mounted bullets forward or bullets opposite on the bottom. Both would have their own method of flipping over to use the other side.
Well, how do you "flip over" your M14 magazine to shoot the bullets out of the other end of it? Arrange your 10/22 mag the same way. ;D
If you're removing the magazine and flipping it over, you're not doing it right. That is what we refer to as negative teaching.
Nope, you treat 'em like any other magazine and remove and replace with another one.
The advantage of putting the two together via the E&L Mfg thingy is that you (a) have a magazine that you can get your hands on, and (b) you have more capacity.
You can shoot the entire 40 round AQT straight through that way. You can also load them 2 and 8 and prep more rounds, (Two stages), giving you more time to learn by listening.
We're not trying to mimic exact rifle MOAs here, just build GROSS MOTOR skills. That's what the LTR is all about. What I practice on the LTR translates nicely to any MBR I own. JB
Quote from: Junior Birdman on June 12, 2008, 05:55:50 PM
We're not trying to mimic exact rifle MOAs here, just build GROSS MOTOR skills. That's what the LTR is all about. What I practice on the LTR translates nicely to any MBR I own. JB
Exactly so. An LTR is about learning to watch the sights and learning to pull a trigger. An MBR is not a quick-reaction weapon (like a handgun or shotgun), whose operation must become unconscious and instinctive. And so the LTR is not a quick-reaction weapon or trainer, whose operation must become unconscious and instinctive. It's NICE if it CAN, of course, but it is absolutely not necessary to the utility of the LTR.
Thanks. That is what I figured. I'll put them together the way that fits best.
Here's a technique the Texas Instructor Squad used to address the "different length of trigger pull" for younger students using the 10/22 LTR.
1. Acquire (1) take-off wood stock from a 10/22.
2. Remove the butt cap. This will not be used again.
3. Remove the rear sling swivel. This will be reattached later.
4. Cut-off (3) 1/2" sections from the end of the buttstock. Try to make straight, square cuts.
This will shorten the overall length of the stock by approx. 2", including saw blade width.
5. Take the last butt section (shortest length) cut-off from the stock and drill (2) pilot holes, for #8 wood screws, thru it, to reattach it to the stock using wood screws (just like the butt cap, but different hole spacing). Be careful not to drill the lower hole to low, as it may interfere with the rear sling swivel when reattached.
6. Use this drilled butt section to mark, and then drill (2) pilot holes in the stock and (2) remaining cut-off butt sections. All (3) butt sections should have the same hole spacing as the stock hole spacing.
7. Now redrill the (3) butt sections for clearance holes for #8 wood screws.
8. Acquire 3 sets (2 each) of #8 wood screws, round heads, of different lengths.
1.25" set for (1) butt section.
1.75" set for (2) butt sections.
2.25" set for (3) butt sections.
You may need slightly longer wood screws if your butt sections are greater than 1/2" thick.
9. You should now be able to attach 1, 2, or 3, butt sections to your shorten stock to adjust it's length to accomodate different lengths of trigger pull for younger students.
10. Drill the rear bottom of the stock to reattach the rear sling swivel.
11. You may want to acquire a slip-on recoil pad to add a non-slip, soft forming surface to replace the discarded butt cap. Slit the bottom of the slip-on part to slide past the rear sling swivel. A strip of Velcro around, or attached to, the slip-on part will secure the pad to the butt stock. You may also need to cut away some of the slip-on bottom section to avoid interfering with the rear sling swivel.
Note: You can check how long the buttstock needs to be by placing the stock along the inside of the forearm with the butt resting on the inside of the elbow joint. The pad of the trigger finger should just touch the lower portion of the trigger.
Thanks to Didactic for asking for this technique to be posted.
Happy Teaching.
Dennis
I have the fancy-shmancy Tech Sites T-200 model or whatever it is, the one that costs more and has the rear elevation adjustment on it. I figured I'd order that one as my MBR (AR-A2 config. with the fancy-shmancy elevation adjustment on the rear) has it as well.
However, now that it's on there and I've used the Tech Sites a few times, I don't really see the need to get the improved model with the elevation adjust. (And definitely don't think spending the extra $15 or whatever it was is worth it.)
Anyone out there actually use theirs? I don't know, maybe I just haven't been creative enough with mine, but it seems like it's unnecessary for LTR applications as the .22 is going to be shot at ranges where a quick elevation adjust ins't necessary. On an MBR like the AR, sure, it's a VERY convenient feature and for those ordering Tech Sites for their SKSs, maybe it's good to have. But, for those ordering Tech Sites for an LTR it seems like saving the extra money and going with the base model T-100 would be better.
Agreed, disagreed? Have you used your elevation adjust?
My LTR gets lots of use from many different sized and shaped shooters at Appleseeds.
YES! I do use the rear sight elevation! A Lot! I've found that in some cases you will run out of elevation using only the front sight to adjust. Sometimes you have to use both.
So if you're building a 10/22 for yourself I'd say it most likely wouldn't matter.
But if you're building an LTR, a rifle to build Riflemen, a rifle to loan out at Appleseeds, a rifle to fit many different shooters, then the 200 is worth the extra money. JB
Those drastic elevation changes probably show that many folks have a cheek weld that results in the front sight post not really being centered in the peep sight. If the front post was centered (meaning really centered top/bottom/left/right) no sight changes should be required unless different ammo changed the point of impact.
Or, it could mean that people's faces are different than mine, so they have a different cheek weld and hence, a different sight alignment. JB
Quote from: Junior Birdman on July 17, 2008, 07:33:36 PM
Or, it could mean that people's faces are different than mine, so they have a different cheek weld and hence, a different sight alignment. JB
Yep. Everyone's zero can be slightly different. Even with a scope.
the rear sight has the same ID no matter who is shooting the rifle
The front post is the same height no matter who is shooting the rifle
if the post is exactly centered by the shooter the point of impact doesn't change
I agree its an alignment issue, because the eye is not centering the front sight in the peep
and yes, it happens with a scope. It happens with both iron and scope sights with the same shooter, as you transition from one target to another if you allow your eye to move in relation to the sight then your group moves. I will never forget the first Appleseed I went to and the shoot boss looking at my target and saying, "Wow, nice group, any idea why its not where it should be?" At the time I didn't know. Now I do.
Roger that.
So basically what you're saying is I wasted the money on "my" LTR (since I have a fat face and hence, a "perfect" cheekweld) but I should definitely put them on the next Liberty Training Rifles I build, the ones that are going to be "Loaner Training Rifles?"
Excellent point, thanks for the reply!
I'm guessing I should also have the T-6, Super Stock, or "Texas-style" stock on there as well, right?
Not a big fan of the T6. It has no place to cheek weld. Needs a higher comb. Most "tacti-cool" stocks have no means for a decent cheek weld. I like the factory wood or the Christie Super Stock . It has an adjustable comb and will fit most anyone. If you're making an LTR, you musy consider people from 9 year old girls to 6' 6" professional wrestlers. (Or, Rasslers where I'm from) JB
Quote from: slim on July 18, 2008, 05:45:31 AM
So basically what you're saying is I wasted the money on "my" LTR (since I have a fat face and hence, a "perfect" cheekweld) but I should definitely put them on the next Liberty Training Rifles I build, the ones that are going to be "Loaner Training Rifles?"
I think it's a good idea to have the adjustment capability on every rifle. Who knows who'll be shootin 'em in the future. As you progress through the program you may allow "your" rifle to, in fact, become a loaner/trainer at any AS you attend given the right circumstance.
You may also want the capability should you decide to shoot at say... 200-yards with the LTR on a windy day just to see if you can do it. :o ;D
Let's not forget what the T in LTR stands for. How many MBRs offer a perfect cheek weld to everyone? Not many I can think of. If you really want to TRAIN, you better learn to shoot with a less-than-perfect cheek weld. Learn to do what it takes to get your EYE in the proper place behind the SIGHT, regardless of where the stock happens to fall on your cheek (or, I guess, vice-versa).
A perfect cheek weld is a wonderful thing to have. Makes shooting any rifle more pleasant. But also learn to get along without it, because you might someday HAVE to.
Wow ....lot's of good information here.
Why nobody uses the the front barrel band for their sling mounting. I assume it causes accuracy problems maybe? I have the rifle, sling, 6 mags and tech sight. I have been looking at the clarke custom standard trigger kit, bolt release and mag release. Anyone have any experience with clarke custom trigger kits. From their website the trigger kit mag release and bolt release will be $65.00 + SH.
Thanks Mike H
I have the sling mounted on my barrel band, no problems at all. Looks good, works great! Couldn't like it more.
Quote from: snowman357 on July 20, 2008, 11:24:29 AM
Why nobody uses the the front barrel band for their sling mounting. I assume it causes accuracy problems maybe? I have the rifle, sling, 6 mags and tech sight. I have been looking at the clarke custom standard trigger kit, bolt release and mag release. Anyone have any experience with clarke custom trigger kits. From their website the trigger kit mag release and bolt release will be $65.00 + SH.
Thanks Mike H
Just a note: If you're mechanically inclined you can do the auto bolt release and extended mag release. (Not that they are that expensive to buy but just because you can do it yourself!) Auto bolt release just requires a little file & polish work on the "bolt-hold-open" plate, the mag release involves some drilling, a 1/4 x 20 tap, and a 1/4" shoulder bolt. Very inexpensive if you have the tools on hand.
usafe7ret
The only problem with the barrel band mount is finding the piece from Uncle mikes. I now have 3 sets of 1" detachable swivels. This seems to be the only package with the barrel band mount. #1461-2
Gander Mountain has all the 10-22's for $199.99 each. We bought 2 yesterday, to lend out at AS shoots.
Colycat
Quote from: colycat on July 21, 2008, 10:22:36 PMThis seems to be the only package with the barrel band mount. #1461-2....
Colycat
I bought two of the #1461-2 kits yesterday at a sporting goods shop. Last two they had.
A sling question...how far up from the back corner of the butt stock should I drill the hole for the rear swivel?
I want to fill the original hole and re-drill it because the person who drilled it the first time drilled it crooked. That person was me...over thirty years ago...dumb kids. :)
What's the best way to repair the bad hole..."plastic wood" or is there a better stronger type of wood filler?
If it were steel, I'd just weld it shut! :)
Also, has anybody tried the 1" black rubber butt-plate extender/pads that are available for five or six bucks on ebay?
Currently working on our two 10/22's for the next Appleseed in Northern N.Y. I found a couple of brand new nylon slings at a small gun shop for about five bucks each. I think they're AK slings. The package says "Grey Universal 1" 54" long w/hardware sling AK". They come with two adjustment buckles so hopefully they should work OK.
Thanks...sorry if these questions have been asked before.
QuoteI have been looking at the clarke custom standard trigger kit, bolt release and mag release. Anyone have any experience with clarke custom trigger kits. From their website the trigger kit mag release and bolt release will be $65.00 + SH.
Conventional wisdom says to get or make an auto bolt release, and an extended mag release, add Tech-sights or some other kind of improved sights, add the sling swivels. Front sling swivel on the barrel band or directly into the wood is an individual thing, some rifles like one better than the other.
Most recommend skipping a slicked-up trigger, this is a Liberty TRAINING Rifle.
Of course, no two are identical. Nor do they need to be. Your FRN's, your rifle, your choice. If it gets you Appleseeding, it's all good!
Yes, I bought one of those cheap plastic butt stock extenders and it works great. Make the rifle (carbine version) fit me much better.
I didn't mess with the trigger on mine. It's a training replacement for my M1A/M1 rifles and they don't have match triggers on them so why have one on the 10/22?
I installed my rear sling swivel (used a US Enfield rear sling swivel) about 1.5 inches up from the end of the butt, that's where it looked "right" to me.
welder,
plasitc wood will work fine as long as you are not drilling right next to it. You could try some epoxy and add a filler to it. This would be the best fix. Being a metal guy you prob. dont have access to some belt sander dust. This is the best filler to add the glue.
cc
Another good way to fill that hole would be with a piece of wood dowel. Drill the hole out to match the size dowel you have, coat the dowel up with glue, drive it in, when it's dry, cut it off and sand it to contour. Won't be pretty but will be hella strong!
Thanks for the replies on my 10/22 stock repair. I ended up taking it to a guy I know who works on stringed instruments as a business. He builds all kinds of guitars, mandolins, etc., from scratch as well as repairs. Been doing it for over thirty years. He drilled out the boogered up area and glued in hardwood dowels. On top of that, he pieced in a rectangular piece of walnut and contored it to the original shape. The walnut he used is a bit darker than the walnut Ruger made the stock from 32 years ago, but I'm OK with that. I just want it to be functional...to hold the sling swivel stud in securely. He assured me it would. He didn't charge me much. It was worth it. One step closer to getting another LTR ready... :)
I try to get the trigger down to somewhere between 2 1/2 to 4 1/2 pounds. 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 would be ideal, but sometimes too much comes off. And a 4 pound (+/- 1/2) comes close to many good Battle Rifles.
Quote from: colycat on July 21, 2008, 10:22:36 PM
The only problem with the barrel band mount is finding the piece from Uncle mikes. I now have 3 sets of 1" detachable swivels. This seems to be the only package with the barrel band mount. #1461-2
I ordered a set of 1" from Midway. Found they wouldn't fit the 1 1/4 slings. Duh.
Ordered the 1 1/4" set, Got a note from Midway saying they've placed a purchase order with Uncle Mikes, but for some reason, they just can't get them to deliver.
I'm going to go ahead and get a set of 1" straps and call it good.
Was at Wally world today. They had some plain ole 1.25 strap hangers. No screws, bolts or anything else. Closing them out for 5$ a set.
I was also at Wally World today... their 1/2 rack of shooting stuff (what is this country coming to?) was on close-out there too. Seems we have less and less a need for shooting supplies in this country.
We're on the way to doing something about that.....
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/SearchResults.aspx?site=All+Products&num=10&q=22+recoil+buffer
would anyone reccommend this kit? anyone used it?
Quotehttp://www.cheaperthandirt.com/SearchResults.aspx?site=All+Products&num=10&q=22+recoil+buffer
would anyone reccommend this kit? anyone used it?
I just bought two, haven't installed them yet. Christie & Christie has a good reputation. The shock buffer, auto bolt release, and extended mag release are the three (action) accessories that conventional wisdom recommends for LTR's. Other necessities for a full LTR are a sling and improved sights, of course.
The things I believe are most needed for 10/22 LTR GI web sling and better sights tec sights best bet,
every thing else is just nice to have.
Wade
great. i'm gonna at least get the kits installed on the two i have and get slings. the tech sights are probably gonna have to wait a bit. i doubt seriously i can get them in time for the november shoot in ga. plus i know nothing about sights. nothing. i can probably do the kits tho.
The last Tech-SIGHTS I ordered were direct purchases, from the web site, and I got them pretty quickly. Installation is quite easy, if you're comfortable with screwdriver, hex-wrench, and Loctite. Most find the TSR-100 adequate for 25m zero, and simpler than the TSR-200.
I called up to Tech-Sights on Thursday, ordered a set ("rush" shipping for $4 more...) and got them Monday. It's absolutely sure you'll get them before November, even if you order through the group buy... (check out the deals and steals section for more info on the group buy... 15% off!) And, they're very easy to install and use. They come with step-by-step instructions. (I'd bet someone on here could lend you a hand if needed.....)
As for other "accessories" for your 10/22 -
You will need one more magazine. Factory is fine but if you're going to buy aftermarket, go with the "steel-lipped" version of whatever kind you get.
A sling is the difference between being a dangerous cook and a Rifleman. No matter how well you shoot without a sling, a sling will help you immensely.
If your 10/22 is "loose" for mag changes, you should be OK. But, if it's like 90% of the 10/22s out there, a mag release extension is a good idea.
These are the only four things I personally feel are "necessary" to make a great LTR and all told, they're going to cost you around $100. Couple that with your 10/22 (for around $200) and you have an awesome trainer for yourself and others that'll run you about $300. Installation of the above items is pretty straight forward and "do it yourself" friendly. But if you have a question.... ask it here!
There are a million things you can do to your LTR and a million "accessories" you can add. But, no matter what you put on your rifle, it's not going to benefit you as much as following what you learn in Appleseed and practicing it. Once you've "mastered" (used very loosely... Always room for improvement!)the knowledge and put it to good use, then you can add a buffer and extracting claw, automatic bolt release, 2 lb. trigger, $275 barrel, $175 stock, $340 scope and of course, camo paint!
Or.... you can take all that money and buy a couple more "basic" LTRs to train your friends, family and countrymen with!
(And just for the record.... I've never once had a sore shoulder from the recoil of a .22. Even after shooting all day long! Buffers, shmuffers! I can see buying one if you're planning on shooting a million rounds through your 10/22 and you want to "save" the action, but the nice thing about the 10/22 is the average LTR shooter has more a chance of sore shoulder from rubber butt pad rub than actual recoil!)
I installed the TSR 200 tech sights on my LTR. At my first AS it shot to the right 1&1/4" at 25 yards. How do I adjust them and how many clicks to bring POI to the left 1.25" at 25 yards? I want to make that adjustment first, shoot it from a rest, and tweak as necessary. I did purchase the adjustment tool, just not sure how to use it.
Mux,
To move the POI to the left, you want to rotate the windage knob counterclockwise, as you look at the sight from the right side of the rifle.
The windage screw/knob make one revolution in five 'clicks'.
Suggest you print a group as is, don't make a windage change.
Then, move the sight ten clicks, or two revolutions, counterclockwise, then print a second group.
Measure the distance between these two group centers in inches.
Divide that measurement by 10; that's the number of inches windage shift per click.
Then write that data down on a piece of paper, tape it to your stock.
Do same experiment for elevation.
Well, Tech Sight Front Elevation and Rear Windage values are about 1 MOA.
So, apply Inches, Minutes, Clicks and get your answer.
If you need help with that, either do a search here, or reply in this thread, and we'll explain it for you.
If they would've covered MOA in math class, I might've paid more attention!
Thanks Guys. I think I got it. Sighted it in yesterday and figured the tool out. I'm loaning my LTR to another shooter for Sunday 8/24 in Gibsonburg Oh. I plan to shoot it myself in Minerva in October. I know it was off and that didn't help my first go-round. Next time I want to score better and get in the game.
Too bad there's no handy tool to fix my npoa or follow through. ;)
Quote from: muxtek on August 23, 2008, 12:40:06 AM
Too bad there's no handy tool to fix my npoa or follow through. ;)
There is - dry fire!
Has any one tried eagle mags in their 10/22 I got a couple at a gunshow a few weeks back and used them for the first time yesterday it seemed like almost every round had some trouble feeding but it did give me a chance for some ball and dummy drills but it made my 10/22 perform like a bolt action I might have to quit being cheap and buy some steel lips mags I have a friend that swears by them
I have an Eagle 10 rd. that came with a rifle that I bought. I used it this weekend and shot 500-600 rounds, not one mag issue. That said, I have always had the best results with the simple Ruger 10 round magazines. They just work and if they "quit"...you take them apart, clean them, tweek the spring a little and they go right back to working. I have NEVER seen a bad factory mag..
I have four 10 round eagles and they seem to work pretty good. I like the mag release button on the rear, makes it similar to my M1A.
The first 12 rounds fired flawlessly but on the second stage when I changed mags that is when the problems started it seemed to be stuffing every round to the top of the chamber the ones that didn't jam at least got shaved a bit I guess it's not fair to blame the mags I didn't ever try the factory mag and this was the first I shot the gun I think I'll have to play with it tonight when I get home
I have some adjustable "steel lip" mags from Tactical-Inc.com. The first time I used them they were horrible. FTF, FTE, just problem after problem... then, I tightened the little screws all the way down (allen wrench included in package) gave 'em a 1/2 turn back, and have had exactly ONE misfeed since.
I was ready to throw them away but once I made the little adjustment I'm really, really thinking they were money well spent. (3/$100 at the gun show) They're a lot more sturdy than the Butler Creek or Eagle mags. From what I've heard, most 10/22 aftermarket mags seem to be "use 'em til they break" type mags. These are much better and will probably last a long time. They've been through 3 Appleseeds so far and done lots of "other" shooting as well, so they're already well past the Eagle standard of a couple hundred shots before they need replaced.
If you're going to spend some money on mags, I recommend the Tactical-Inc.com mags. They're pretty good.
And as said above, you can't go wrong with the factory mags either. (If you like doing mag changes every 10 shots!)
It's not the capacity that I don't like about the factory mags it's the flush fit that makes it difficult to get a grip when it's time to change mags
A good mag release fixes that, though you may have to clean some casting flashing from the factory mags.
Mine all drop free, and I use the Bell and Carson releases.
Seems there's some pictures farther back in this thread where someone (Jr. Birdman???) glued some square wood blocks to the bottom of his 10/22 mags, painted them black and now they stick down about 2" further and are both easier to remove and insert. Page back through this thread and have a look, I've seen that somewhere and seen the mags. on the range at Ramseur.
Quote from: Nickle on August 26, 2008, 08:51:36 AM
A good mag release fixes that, though you may have to clean some casting flashing from the factory mags.
Roger is correct - on the forward side there are 4 dimples that usually have flashing around them. Scrape this flashing off and you will usually have a drop free magazine. I do that to all my mags.
Quote from: ann on August 17, 2008, 09:34:44 PM
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/SearchResults.aspx?site=All+Products&num=10&q=22+recoil+buffer
would anyone reccommend this kit? anyone used it?
I've used 10/22 LTRs with that type of extended mag release and a more flat paddle (instead of the rod). I highly prefer the paddle. It is more comfortable for me to use.
I was impressed with putting in a recoil buffer. It really reduced the noise of the action. I have yet to put in that auto mag release. I find myself dry firing during prep, so I insert a mag and just cycle the bolt. On 2 and 8 stages, I always drop a mag after the first shot so I don't have to manually cycle the action after a mag change. Counting shots is still ingrained in my mind from action pistol shooting courses.
I never thought of the one shot mag change but it makes sense thanks for the tip.
I started doing the one shot mag change at the last Appleseed and found it really helped on the time element. Before, I would forget and fire the third shot without changing mags and have a dry fire. Great practice, bad in timed shoots! I can usually count to one. :)
No matter how you do it.... verify your NPOA!
im in the process of gettin my LTR back in order..took it to the range today with 2 AQTS and about a hundred and fifty rnds of federal ammo 40grns.ball.
it jammed up alot wouldnt eject.
what should i get?
as far as upgrade kits or something and where should i go?thanks
If it isn't kicking the fired brass out (stove piping), then the federal isn't providing enough pressure to reliably cycle the action
Try a different ammo. Buy several brands and get more trigger time ;D testing them until you find one that will cycle reliably in you wpn. Remember every gun is different, they don't all operate well with the same ammo. Some will work well with the bulk box ammo, others have more expensive tastes. Mine only likes CCI Mini Mag.
usafe7ret
Did you make sure the bolt face, extractor and chamber were free of carbon? A good cleaning? 10/22s are great, but I have seen about 50% of them with some kind of function like this. Getting the right ammo is good, but just shooting through it is sometimes good too.
Fred once wrote about buying a bad lot of ammo and wishing he had a chance to get some more of it, because it was ready made ball and dummy. ;) It can be aggravating, but I tell my guys on the line, don't get frustrated with it, think about how much more training you are getting for the money.
When you are firing a COF and you have two misfires or jams and you clear them and still make the COF with enough points, then you really are a candidate for Rifleman. When you fire the mag change COFs, just make sure you have a third loaded mag there in case you have some misfires.
ive run remington target through it some months back we both hated that stuff and now the federal im gonna try the mini mags..
happened in all my magazines..eagle,ramline,and even ruger factory 10rnd mags.
so you guys dont think maybe its a shell extracter,ejector and spring thing??
thanks for the quik reply
tom
Quote from: Scout on September 11, 2008, 12:05:04 AM
Did you make sure the bolt face, extractor and chamber were free of carbon? A good cleaning? 10/22s are great, but I have seen about 50% of them with some kind of function like this. Getting the right ammo is good, but just shooting through it is sometimes good too.
Fred once wrote about buying a bad lot of ammo and wishing he had a chance to get some more of it, because it was ready made ball and dummy. ;) It can be aggravating, but I tell my guys on the line, don't get frustrated with it, think about how much more training you are getting for the money.
When you are firing a COF and you have two misfires or jams and you clear them and still make the COF with enough points, then you really are a candidate for Rifleman. When you fire the mag change COFs, just make sure you have a third loaded mag there in case you have some misfires.
I have found my best scores were from COF with several missfires or jams. When I am behind and in a hurry it seems my mind becomes clear and I can just shoot. One of my better scores was when first round jamed in one of the mags on a rapid AQT, and I had to reload a complete 10 round mag during the AQT.
When I first started shooting my LTR I had the same problems.
Wal-Mart ammo just doesn't do the trick in some of the LTRs. I now use only the Winchester Target HP (bought at Dick's Sporting Goods for about $20) and they cycle like they were custom made for my rifle.
I use the tacticalinc.com mags and they too would not work worth a darn when I first started. After making some minor adjustments to them (they're fully adjustable) they work extremely well in both of my LTRs. Ruger factory mags have always worked pretty good too.
And lastly, as said above, carbon buildup is a problem for some LTRs. (Some work better when dirty... go figure.) Whenver I shoot mine I dab the inside of the receiver and action with a lubed patch, run the boresnake through the barrel a couple times, and then give it a couple extra drops of oil right in the action on the "rails" and manually cycle it about 20 times. Works just fine after that.
I have a couple LTR's that I use as loaners. One likes high velocity ammo and the other likes standard velocity ammo. The brand doesn't seem as important as matching the velocity to what the rifle likes.
VAshooter
As to Federal ammo, it depends on which ammo.
I've had horrible results from Auto Match (325 rd box), while the 550 round box of regular stuff has been fine in my 10/22's (all 6 of them). That being said, when they get dirty enough, they start malfunctioning, and these rifles get USED a LOT. The rifles are loaners, for the most part, though 2 of them get used less (and maintained more) than the rest of them.
One thing that seems to make a big difference and it is counter intuitive is the extractor.
If I have a 10/22 that is problematic I switch out the extractor for a Volquartsen. People say, it's a blowback it doesn't even need an extractor...True...but the extractor holding the casing tightly makes sure that the EJECTOR gets a get clean, hard hit on it- thereby helping to throw it completely clear of the gun.
It took me quite awhile to figure out how important that was....hope it saves someone else some trouble.
On 10/22 with ejection problems: A decent gunsmith can stone the extractor. This helps and, if done properly, gives good function (as, some have said, does the extractor from Volquartsen).
Also, some ammo is just plain dirty. For a range expedient, keep handy an old toothbrush, swabs or cleaning patches*, and a solvent/lubricant like Breakfree CLP. When ejection problems start up, apply a few drops of CLP to the toothbrush and scrub the bolt face, extractor and the matching groove in the face of the barrel. Wipe away the loosened grime with a swab or cleaning patch. Place a small drop of CLP right on the extractor where it joins the bolt. This scrubbing can be done through the ejection port without any disassembly and will normally get you through another couple hundred rounds. Good to know, because even if your 10/22 is fine, somebody else may have this trouble.
*Real cotton cleaning patches are best. Avoid the synthetic ones because they are usually not good at soaking up wet stuff and grime. If you can't find anything else, just cut up an old cotton t-shirt. As for toothbrushes, get a very plain one. It seems that all they sell is those big bulky ones. If you can, get the green, double-ended, "Army" toothbrushes. Brownells and others sell them at a fairly good price, and they are very handy.
I've had trouble before with the barrel slot for the extractor getting filled with crud. And it's hard to see inside it to make that determination.
After experiencing problems with a number of brands(in 10/22's and more specifically in my marlin 60), I have settled on CCI. Doesn't seem to matter if it is mini mags or standard velocity stuff. Just pick one to be consistent.
Toothbrushes are OK, but I've found the best method is to have a dental pick on hand and scrape the corners of the boltface that hold the rim of the round. I also use synthetic motor oil (the castrol gunlube stuff...I just found out its their synthetic motor oil, marketed with Hoppes and sold in a little can...no more little cans for me!) on the extractor, plunger, and mainspring guide rod (above the bolt with it retracted). I use it SPARINGLY...my 10/22s run fine fairly dry. Makes scraping off the crap easier, too.
Anyone that is ever at an Appleseed with me, I'll gladly give a 'tips and tricks' class after the range day is through. I work with a guy that used to build 10/22s for the Chevy Truck Challenge and has forgotten more about them than most folks will ever know, and I'm going to pick his brain dry...
Just thought I'd share . . .
(http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g276/double_ation/LTR.jpg)
I started with a 10/22 carbine and added:
Green Mountain barrel
Hogue stock
Tech Sights
VQ hammer and auto bolt release
Ranch mag release
Buffer
;D
How's it balance? Seems like it'd be a little muzzle-heavy, but that just reflects my preference for the CG to be closer to my body
It's not all that nose heavy, much less than I thought it would be. When I ordered the bull barrel I had a hard time choosing between the fluted and non-fluted because I was worried about the weight. If it was a 20" barrel it might not be so great, but at 18", I find it really comfortable and I like the balance. The balance point is a half inch forward of the take down screw.
While I'm not really up to date on the latest gizmos for the 10/22. I do know that most bull barrels are not set up for iron sights.
So, how did you set up the front site?
It definitely looks good.
smle
Tech Sights makes a bull barrel adapter. It's glued on with thread locker (as per their instructions). So far so good, I've only run about 300 rounds through it, but it seems pretty solid.
Looks like a close cousin to mine....
(http://usw247.org/Recreation/ltr5.jpg)
I really like the extra weight. The regular thread locker wouldn't work for me, so I used the bushing holder style loctite which is made for larger gaps. I have tried a couple of stocks and the Hogue is the most comfortable for me. I was amazed at the difference the VQ hammer makes. I built a couple of rifles this way so far.
Nice Rifle. looks like mine. I splurged when i got my rifle , I had the local 'smith pin the adapter in place, got some real odd looks the day I picked it up. shoots like a dream though.
Quote from: fepowered on September 20, 2008, 03:18:29 PM
I was amazed at the difference the VQ hammer makes.
I agree, it makes a huge difference and so easy to do. Did you change the springs or use the factory ones?
Quote from: double_action on September 20, 2008, 08:45:21 PM
I agree, it makes a huge difference and so easy to do. Did you change the springs or use the factory ones?
I changed the hammer spring only. I read somewhere about issues with the trigger spring so I left the factory spring in place.
I didn't change any springs, just the hammer. I must have read the same thing as you ;)
went to the range today with a couple of hundred rnds od cci mini mags and original ruger magazine
not even one malfunction
tried the cci in banana clips and low and behold malfunction
guess where those mags are goin??
This is from Rimfirecentral.com
http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=382428&postcount=9 (http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=382428&postcount=9)
QuoteStovepiping: the partial ejection of a fired case, usually leaving the open mouth of the case sticking out of the ejection port, looking like a "stove pipe", and thus jamming the action of a semi-automatic firearm.
Stovepiping is caused by the slow or incomplete cycling of the bolt...! !
Causes of the slow or incomplete cycling of the 10/22's bolt:
0 Gummed-up action: the Ruger applied 'preservative' was not removed before firing, or oil was used as a lube...! !
0 Rifle was stored vertically after cleaning, allowing oil to run into the action & gum-it-up...! !
0 Unlubed or rough "Bolt Handle Guide Rod" [B-7]...! !
0 Action not lubed with a dry Teflon type spray lube or "CLP"...! !
0 Action not 'broken-in' yet..! ! Normally it takes 1 - 2 bricks [500 rds ea.] of High Velocity ammo to 'break-in' a 10/22's action...! !
0 Use of Standard Velocity or Sub Sonic ammo...! !
0 Aftermarket action parts misinstalled...! !
0 Scope base mounting screws rubbing on the top of the bolt.
0 "Hammer Strut Assembly" reassembled with the 'slot' of the "Retaining Washer" facing down; it must face UP...! !
0 Use of a non Ruger magazine...! ! Use a Ruger BX-1...! !
0 Magazine not seating with a 'click'...! !
0 Dirty or untuned magazine(s); see the "Sticky" Post at the top of this Forum for "Magazine Service"...! !
0 Magazine touching the stock in magazine well; can you pass a business card up both sides of the magazine all-the-way to the receiver...? ?
Note: The 10/22 is a "blow back" action, and it does not need an "extractor" to extract and eject fired rounds...! ! The "extractor" is only need to extract unfired rounds...! ! The primary "ejector" is the last 1/4" of the left lip of the BX-1's magazine throat...! !
You will have to see which cause(s) best fit(s) your particular situation...! !
Hope this helps....! !
Sexy, very sexy with that color stock.
Guys, I'm not knocking anyone here, and I believe you should have a nice LTR set up to get you shooting more and help you maintain your proficiency. It's your money, use it how you see fit.
But.... if you're spending several hundred bucks "upgrading" your LTR, you could've bought another LTR and had another shooter on the line with you. A true LTR set up is just under $300. When you're spending money on your rifles, keep the mission in mind.
Is it better to have 1 shooter shooting 1-MOA or 2 shooters shooting 4-MOA? They both cost about the same price!
Quote from: redman1 on September 20, 2008, 11:04:57 PM
went to the range today with a couple of hundred rnds od cci mini mags and original ruger magazine
not even one malfunction
tried the cci in banana clips and low and behold malfunction
guess where those mags are goin??
See if you can trade them for factory mags or sell them on gunbroker or another site like that.
Find what works for you and then go with it!
I need to ask, does your banana clip have steel lips? I seem to remember reading somewhere that the plastic lipped clips could cause those kind of problems.
I've seen others use banana clips without a single malfunction all day. They were running the Federal bulk .22"s
smle
Slim, I hear what you're saying.
It's easy to go crazy with upgrading the 10/22, and I do love a project . .
I do think the only extras on mine are the barrel and maybe the stock. I built this because I need some serious trigger time and can't afford to shoot my M1A that much, plus I have a flinch I need to get rid of.
The bolt release and mag release are essential to keep it like my M1A. The hammer I got because the factory pull was ~8 lbs at least (I could hang the gun by the trigger and it wouldn't go off :o). The hogue sock is just more comfortable. I didn't need the bull barrel, but I got it anyway.
Here's how much I have it in:
10/22: $220
Barrel: $75
Stock: $40
Sights $70
Hammer $30
Bolt release: $12
Mag release: $10
Buffer: $4
Swivels and sling: $16
Grand total: $477
I think that's still reasonable.
Quote from: double_action on September 20, 2008, 11:29:00 PM
This is from Rimfirecentral.com
http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=382428&postcount=9 (http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=382428&postcount=9)
Quote
Note: The 10/22 is a "blow back" action, and it does not need an "extractor" to extract and eject fired rounds...! ! The "extractor" is only need to extract unfired rounds...! ! The primary "ejector" is the last 1/4" of the left lip of the BX-1's magazine throat...! !
While it is true that the extractor is not necessarily needed to complete the
extraction of the case from the chamber in a blowback firearm (I have a pistol that functions perfectly well without an extractor), the extractor that is in the 10/22 performs an important function in the relatively closed geometry of the 10/22 receiver. If the extractor does not have the proper grip, i.e. if there is gummy stuff on it and the bolt face, then as the case flies back and hits the ejector, the case may not be knocked away at the correct angle that will allow it to exit the ejection port. (The pistol mentioned above has an exposed breach and has well over 180 degrees of ejection path freedom.) In other words, proper ejection requires the extractor pinning the case and providing a pivot point. This pivot point provides the correct exit angle for the case.
Quote from: slim on September 21, 2008, 12:46:43 PM
if you're spending several hundred bucks "upgrading" your LTR, you could've bought another LTR and had another shooter on the line with you. A true LTR set up is just under $300. When you're spending money on your rifles, keep the mission in mind.
I paid an average of $100 for each of the LTR rifles I have started out with. I picked up 3 stock and barrel sets from Gander for $100 a set on clearance. 1 build I got a barrel from Gander for $50 on clearance and ordered the Hogue stock from Brownells for $60. The VQ hammer was around $30 from Brownells.
Not counting the Tech Sights I have no more than $250 for each of the LTR builds I have done so far. I just picked up another project gun yesterday with less than 50 rounds through it and a new Butler Creek stock for less than $115. This will be a skinny barrel LTR project for the kids who can't hold up a heavy barrel gun.
On the subject of 'economy LTRs', I'd recommend investing in a Dremel tool, if you don't have one already. I used said Dremel to hog out the factory bolt release (saved $15) and to clean up all the pressed surfaces in the action (hammer spring guide comes to mind off the bat). As far as the hammer, hop on www.rimfirecentral.com and look up 'hammer stoning' for a guide on how to make the stock 10/22 hammer work great. I got the factory one down to around 5 lbs with a better, cleaner break than the VQ one I have in my squirrel gun. If you have a vise and a good file, you can save $30 per hammer if you're so inclined. Right there is $45 saved.
I don't have a bull barrel on my LTR. Nor will it ever wear one. They're too heavy, screw up the balance (IMHO), and don't provide the 'bang for the buck' in accuracy improvement that you'll see at 25 yards. If you get a cheap one, its roughly a hundred bones (before the Tech-sights adapter you have to buy) that can buy a couple of Ruger mags and 2 or 3 bricks of ammo, depending on what your rifle likes.
I have the factory stock from my first 10/22 on my LTR, and it works great. The Hogue stock is on my squirrel gun, and I love it, but the advantages are null for a first time shooter.
Also, I hate to bad mouth anything Tech-sights has made (I LOVE the sights on my LTR), but the TSR200 is overkill for our needs. It forces the front sight WAAAAAAY up too high, and I saw the problems at the last Ramseur Appleseed. There are fixes (new, taller sight posts, spacers under the sights, etc.) but why invest in the problem? You're not going to be engaging rabbits at 200 yards, so I don't think the extra adjustability is really necessary for our needs. JMHO, of course.
Just my 2 pennies on the subject, YMMV.
I have to second the advice about the 200 model of the sights. I am the example from the Aug 30-31 Ramseur. I could not get the front site high enough (even with the rear all the way down to the point that it was in the mount) to be able to shoot any lower than 3" above point of aim while still engaging the detent with my 10/22 carbine. That might be fine for some people. But I just can't get used to that kind of "kentucky windage."
I ordered a taller front site last week, received it Saturday, installed it on Saturday night, sighted in the rifle at an Appleseed Mini on Sunday and finally shot a "Rifleman" score late Sunday afternoon.
I'm not saying that I don't like the 200. But I am saying that it cost me some extra time, work and money to get it right on my carbine.
One more point about bull barrels...the bull barrel tends to have a tighter chamber, which, especially on the .22LR, greatly contributes to accuracy. But, it also makes the rifle its mounted in MUCH more ammo sensitive.
My squirrel gun, which wears an early VQ THM Tension barrel (circa 2000 or so), is very persnickity about the fodder I feed her. My LTR, wearing the factory barrel, chews up and spits out about anything I can find.
Just another point of view.
JMDavis, were you the guy I helped on Sunday, that we installed the sight riser on? If not, that makes at least 3 that had problems at one Appleseed.
We all know that the Appleseed message and mission is clear. 4MOA with "rack" grade rifles. Some of us are fortunate to be able to personalize our LTRs, but that isn't anywhere near a requirement to shoot Rifleman if you are doing your job. I have repeatedly shot Rifeman scores with 10/22 and AR15 rifles with iron sights. I know that it is me and not my rifle that earned those scores.
I will never say that a heavy barrel is necessary as I shoot Rifleman with or without them, but I personally prefer them. I am accustomed to shooting my AR15 which is heavier than a 10/22. Same thing with the Hogue (rubber overmolded) stock. Not a necessity, but they sure are more comfortable than the hard plastic stocks like the Butler Creek or the factory wooden stock. I actually like the balance of my heavy barrel LTR. If it feels a little heavy during off hand, then you can dry fire with a rope or belt over the barrel and a little extra weight hanging from it. Just like everything else, your muscles need to be accustomed to your rifle of choice.
I am on #4 10/22 LTR build with Butler Creek .920 barrels and have had zero issues. They all eat a variety of ammo just fine. I stick with Federal Automatch as they go bang every time for me. I run both 200 and 100 Tech-Sights on .920 barrel rifles and have had no problems with the zero on any of them. It may be possible that the 200 is more of an issue with some factory barrels??? I will be building a factory stainless barrel LTR rifle this week with a 200 sight. I will report any zero issues with it...
"JMDavis, were you the guy I helped on Sunday, that we installed the sight riser on? If not, that makes at least 3 that had problems at one Appleseed."
Actually on Sunday I switched to my AR and used that. We talked on Saturday and I believe that you told me about shimming the area of the recoil lug (or the closest thing to a recoil lug on a 10/22) to get the barrel higher.
Quote from: jmdavis on September 23, 2008, 09:39:37 AM
"JMDavis, were you the guy I helped on Sunday, that we installed the sight riser on? If not, that makes at least 3 that had problems at one Appleseed."
Actually on Sunday I switched to my AR and used that. We talked on Saturday and I believe that you told me about shimming the area of the recoil lug (or the closest thing to a recoil lug on a 10/22) to get the barrel higher.
Gotcha! The shimming was Crash's trick; he talked about it during the RBC, using soda cans cut down. I remember now!
jeesh...my memory is slipping pretty badly...of course, we had been out there for a week already, and I think my waterlogged noggin was about as full as possible. Glad you got a good solution for your 10/22, and congrats on shooting Rifleman!
Hmmm - I'm tempted to post this in 'deals and steals' also, but I think I'll start here and wait for feedback, first -
The 10/22 LTR is designed to approximate the M-1A/M-14/Garand series of rifles. But what does one of us do who wishes to approximate an M4 series rifle? The ergonomics are very different, as is the manual of arms. I think I may have a solution, especially for prospective Appleseeders who have (or prefer!) the AR-15 or equivalent.
A 10/22 is about $200-, and mags, sling, bases and swivels, and sights bring the price up to about $300-, or more if the shooter installs an aftermarket auto bolt release, extended magazine release, buffer, and jumbo cocking handle, as is common. Another approach for an AR shooter is to buy a dedicated .22 upper. Velocity Firearms offers one such for $299- at velocityfirearms.com. For someone who already owns an AR, this upper plus a cheap carrying handle/rear sight might well be more appealing than buying and setting up a 10/22. Relying on others' experience, I do not recommend trying to save a few bucks by using the M261 or Ciener .22 conversions ($150 - $220+) and risking damaging your expensive .223 upper for mediocre results.
In addition, Tactical Innovations has a special offer of 27 round .22 AR magazines that will work with the Ciener conversion and most dedicated .22 uppers (including the velocity upper) at 34.99 each - or 3 for 84.99 - at www.tacticalinc.com
I know several of us Appleseed members (and wannabes (or gonnabes) as in my case) are military - and this may well be of special interest to us. Specifically, practicing the AQT with an M68 CCO has appeal.
Hope this information helps!
Trent
Check out this thread by SGT Cap -
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=3471.0
Well,
I shot rifleman my first time at an appleseed in Piru, CA using a Marlin Model 60, 14 shot tube fed rifle.
Bought this thing back in 1985, put a lot of shots through it over the years.
I did have a cheap $30 3x7x32 scope on it though.
I attribute the end rifleman score to the teaching obtained that day at the Appleseed.
Appleseed rocks....
I'm not shure about all of you guys but when it comes to rifles a ruger 10/22 is the first thing in my gun cabinet.
shure when i aquired it after my father bought it back when the 10/22 first came out on the market it was just a standard factory issue gun. and thus we come to the great point about 10/22's that (from what i've read) everyone here has dwelled upon in some form or another.
10/22's in my opinion are the ultimate rimfire rifle due to the fact that they are USER CUSTOMIZEABLE.
since i first came into posession of that old 10/22 i've done everything to it from adding a telescopic reddot sight, to taking the original wooden stock and free-floating the barrell (at the suggestion of Nickle (thanks)), to most recently adding an aftermarket replacement stock.
overall i've come up w/ a 80 yard tackdriver that looks B.A. ta' boot
experimentation with customization leads to great things.
because nothing works better than a man using a rifle that was BUILT FOR HIM TO USE.
long live the appleseed!!!
You guys are completely missing the point on the LTR.
As defined way back when, (Before this thread was even started), an LTR is a cheap, easy to maintain and shoot rifle used to LOAN TO OTHER SHOOTERS at an Appleseed event for the purpose of training.
It isn't meant to mimic the manual of arms of any other rifle in particular, although it may. The 10/22 was chosen by most folks because, as it has been pointed out, it is easily found and purchased, has a huge aftermarket, and if the person you loan it to drops the thing in the gravel, it's no big deal.
If you build a $700 rifle to use yourself, that's cool, I like that idea too. But it ain't an LTR. And I doub't you'll loan your beauty to the 12 year old girl on the line who needs a rifle. :D
Flame away! :o JB
JB's right. Why do you think I have 6 of them? Loaners.
Quote from: wcmartin1 on October 06, 2008, 11:45:36 PM
Check out this thread by SGT Cap -
SGT Cap's thread is great - but unless I miss my guess, he has somewhere between 3-1/2 and 4
thousand dollars invested between his MBR and LTR - and that's a bit of a stretch for most of our members, I think!
scopeboy, you may well have a point - as far as I can see, Appleseed
is about sharing what we know more than anything - but for me and others who are planning on going in harm's way, "Train as you fight" is an important maxim. And my thoughts on this were started by an instructor who noted his LTR so closely approximated his MBR that he found himself unconsciously searching for a trigger guard safety on the firing line.
And that thought about sharing is why I set up my 10/22 LTR first - but my concerns about integrating Appleseed into my pre-deployment training is why I posted the above.
FWIW - if I've stimulated discussion, I feel I've done a good thing, if nothing else!
Quote from: Grunt Medic on October 08, 2008, 11:17:39 PM
FWIW - if I've stimulated discussion, I feel I've done a good thing, if nothing else!
Yep. It's all good.
grunt med. Has an excelent point.
train with what you use.
looking for a safety that isn't there is never a good thing, be it weather you are taking enemy fire, or have an 8point buck in the crosshairs.
The main reason that I use my 10/22 is b/c it is the rifle that I use in most situations (I hunt alot of small game).
the principal of practice w/ what you use has been common among clays shooters for decades.
get one gun you like, learn to shoot it well, never stray from it.
Plain and simple.
I did the auto bolt mod myself, and now I'm getting repeated jams because it is jumping up and interferring with the action when I fire. When I hold the bolt lock down with one hand and shoot with the other, I don't have that problem. The rifle fires properly.
Anyone else here have this problem, and if so, what did you do about it?
I don't think you got the spring back in place properly. It should hold the bolt hold open down out of the way of the bolt until you push it up to catch the bolt and hold it open. Pull the trigger group back out and check. One leg of the spring sits on the BHO and the other sits under the crosspin that also holds the ejector.
Thus:
See pic at the bottom of this link:
http://riflestocks.tripod.com/trigger-travel.html
See third image down on this link:
http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11017
"A" leg of spring should contact "A" pin.
"B" leg of spring should contact the bolt hold open at "B"
Either that, or you might not have removed enough material from it.
Check the spring FIRST, then the BHO next. My bet is on the spring being wrong.
I had the bolt lock spring in wrong. Thanks fellas.
I just acquired my 10/22 a few weeks ago, and am LTR'ing it for this weekend's Minerva Appleseed. I got the 20 inch DSP model w/ no barrel band, but I've run into a problem with replacing the factory sling mounts with a swivel mount. Any ideas on how to get the originals off w/o ruining the stock?
Unless yours are different than mine, just grab the swivel and unscrew the whole thing. They are one- piece, rather than a separate stud and swivel.
This makes replacement easy though. No drilling. Just screw the studs in the holes left by the originals, attach your swivels, done.
where do you attach the sling swivels on a rifle that doesn't have any? my oldest boy chose the stainless with plastic? stock model. and my youngest got the crr model with the wood stock? i did order the correct swivels, i'm just not sure what to do with them.
Quote from: GMB74 on October 22, 2008, 08:52:38 PM
Unless yours are different than mine, just grab the swivel and unscrew the whole thing. They are one- piece, rather than a separate stud and swivel.
This makes replacement easy though. No drilling. Just screw the studs in the holes left by the originals, attach your swivels, done.
edit: Success!! Now just a trip to WallyWorld for some Loc-Tite, and I'm in business.
In the past I have unscrewed the thing, removed the wire loop, drilled the hole all the way through to the requesit size and reinstalled it. Didn't even buy studs! JB
Hi guys. Jason here in Peoria AZ.
Ran across this site some time back. Read a large number of posts and went ahead and signed up. Bought a new 10/22 carbine and most of the stuff listed in this post: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=32.msg6061#msg6061 (http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=32.msg6061#msg6061) including the Tech-sights. Decide to get the Tech-sights installed first. Well... big problem.
I cannot for the life of me get the front sight out.
I tapped the sight from left to right .. no joy.
I tapped a bit harder.. no joy.
I tapped even harder (OK, I hit it ???).. still no joy.
Not wanting to do an injury to the weapon, I stopped and called for help.... HELP!
I'm using a 5/32 pin punch and a 22oz ball-peen if that could make any difference. And the barrel is supported along it's entire length.
Do ya think it being new could have something to do with it?
BTW, will be signing up for the end of November AS at Ben Avery the end of the week. Looking forward to it. :)
I did it!!!!!!!
i installed the kit's from christies in both of my boy's rifles tonite. the recoil buffer pin, the auto release, extended mag release and the jumbo cocking handle. i went to some of the websites listed in this thread, printed the very good pictures and instructions and got to work. everything went fine. the only trouble i had was trying to install the mag release upside down. duh. ::)
i will install the sling swivels tomorrow, cant find one of my drill bits (of course it's the one i need) and i gotta get some epoxy.
anyone who is nervous about trying to install this stuff, don't be. if i can do it, anyone can.
Quote from: ashlock on October 26, 2008, 07:41:20 PM
I tapped even harder (OK, I hit it ???).. still no joy.
Not wanting to do an injury to the weapon, I stopped and called for help.... HELP!
Sorry, bud, you're gonna hafta hit it harder or get a bigger hammer.
I had to really pound on one of my front sights. Try finding a way to squeeze some oil wherever you can to see if that will help.
squirt some kroil on there and let it soak in for 5 or 10 min.
that stuff works wonders. the front sight should pop right out.
I have read here that the Ruger factory original extractor is often to blame for failures to extract. Six different brands of ammo all give the same dismal reliability with the Ruger extractor. It's astonishing that a factory new rifle is sold with such a handicap.
Which companies make more reliable replacement extractors?
Anybody try stoning the factory extractor to enhance its grasp of the shell rim?
My experience is that extractor problems are caused by grit in the spring/plunger reccess. A sometimes grit comes installed by the factory.
To answer the who sells a better extractor question:
https://www.volquartsen.com/product/163-exact-edge-extractor
I bought the Volquartsen Extractor from Midway USA $9.99
I can eliminate the grit possibility as a cause; I clean after every session by complete disassembly of the bolt, extractor, and spring/pin. Plus, the extraction trouble begins with the first magazine.
Examining the Ruger extractor, I can see that half of the volume of the claw- which grips the case rim- has been removed thanks to enthusiastic radiusing by the part fabricator. Of the theoretical maximum size of the extractor claw, it's operating on 50% of that thanks to the fabricator's belt sander/ edge breaker.
Now here's an extractor by Volquartsen, which depicts a sharp, continuous, un-radiused claw.
[attachment=1]
The Volq claw depicted offers twice the rim contact area compared to the Ruger part in my rifle.
I expect functional improvement with the Volq part, if the actual part looks like the image here.
You're fast on the draw- thanks ARpjoe, I'll try that.
Hey everyone, based on previous posts in this thread, I ordered a couple of these DPMS Rear Sight Windage Knobs (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=353544) since my LTRs will probably be passed around a lot and it would be nice to easily zero for different shooters.
I can *guess* how I'm supposed to install one, but thought I'd ask before taking apart my TechSights 200. :)
Thanks.
problems w/ a 10/22 extractor?
WOW!
I'm not sure about all of u guys but that is virtually unheard of around my neck of the woods.
i know that they can get a little gritty after you put a few thousand rounds through them but mine have alwase kept spitting out brass.
Quote from: Francis Marion on November 02, 2008, 09:36:59 PM
Six different brands of ammo all give the same dismal reliability with the Ruger extractor. It's astonishing that a factory new rifle is sold with such a handicap.
I have owned 10/22s from nearly every change point in its life from the 60s to the present. I have gotten examples which were used and abused and I have gotten several new ones within the past 5 years, pre and post plastic trigger housing. I have yet to be let down by their performance in both reliability and accuracy. I have found most issues and accounts of problems to have a root cause in the shooter and poor basic maintenance, not any inherent problem with the rifle. New or used, I tear them down to the bare frame and clean lube & inspect every part. I use Remington Golden HP bullets for plinking and Federal Auto Match for Appleseed shooting and hunting. I don't see any significant change in POA/POI switching back and forth. The Remington Golden bullets are a little less reliable than the Auto Match which are nearly 100% reliable in feeding and function.
I will stick to these "terrible" "horrid" "junk" rifles.... ;D
i know what ur talking about when u say feeding problems.
mine gets AWESOME accuracy shooting a stinger HPSWC round.
the only problem is that they jam and/ or deform when you chamber them using a mag, because the reciever keeps smashing them into the lower part of the barrell just below the mouth of the chamber.
any suggestions / tricks to stop this. please post.
I have nearly 10,000 rounds through my LTR with nary a single FTE, all on the same original factory extractor. I can do B&D with it without having to buy dummies, try that in your 597! ;) The stock mag release and magazines are THE fastest reloads on the line, bar none. All the factory barrels I've seen have been much better than 4 moa, and that's all we require. And all the other complaints seem to be just that, complaints. A rifleman persists, he doesn't wait for a perfect rifle to be designed.
I have to agree, all the problems I've seen on the line have to do with lack of cleaning. I've yet to see one choke due to mechanical problems that weren't associated with either cleaning or someone's ill fitted aftermarket parts.
Come on 34......34.....come on 34..........I'm feeling lucky.........
Quote from: Junior Birdman on November 10, 2008, 10:37:08 PM
Come on 34......34.....come on 34..........I'm feeling lucky.........
What's the best poodley-pow thingie that can make me shoot Rifleman with my 10/22? I need one in titanium.
I got one in my range box. The Titanium model will cost you though.
Come on 34.........34.......come on 34............I'm feeling lucky........
JB .... You quack me up.
I have just started putting my LTR together. I picked up the 10-22 a couple of weeks ago.
There are 33 pages of wisdom here. I wonder how long it will take me to read through it.
Dangit! I wanted to start page 34! Oh well, there's always page 35....or 36.....or 132,691
Congrats on starting page 34 Sav, you'll like having that LTR handy when you get to the shoots. Mine just made another Rifleman this past weekend. (I think that technically, I get 17% credit for this)
Hard to beat the feeling ya git when you loan someone a sighted in rifle that works flawlessly after they have struggled with one that isn't / doesn't.
They walk back from "speaking" with their target and have a huge grin on their mug.
You simply cannot buy that!
If it's the stuff I'm thinking of that federal would have been in a box of gold/white w/black trim and it dates from the early 60's not the 80's. 70's/80's would have been in a red box with white trim and blue accents.
either way old rimfire is bad news.
Sam
"Remember, theres no more important safety rule than to wear these, safety glasses" Or something like that that Norm says.
I'm a woodworker and I've learned my lesson. Always were safety glasses. EVEN IF you think your regular glasses are 'good enough', they aren't.
I buy these 'fitovers' that go over my regular glasses that provide protection all the way around the eye, and not just in front of it.
They come in smoke, clear, and slightly mirrored (Good for shooting)....
Just my 2cents.
Come on 35........35.....come on 35........I'm feeling lucky........35, 35, 35..........
JB, consider this a bump.
I see even you cannot resist the pull of the LTR thread. The LTR MoJo is strong......
BTW, you may have not gotten to 35, yet....., however, you did hit reply #666.......
OK, I'll bite... I'm not reading thru 35 pages...
I bought two LTR's carbines. After only a few months of use all of the black finish is peeling and bubbling inside the receiver.... I've scraped off the flaky stuff and it doesn't seem to affect reliability it just looks c**p.
Is this normal? Should I get some paint stripper and remove it all to a nice shiny aluminium (as the Brits say) receiver...
Just asking...
Cheers
Phil
Let it wear. It does no harm flaking off with use. Patchiness isn't ugly- it's inability to hit that's ugly.
I've read that the 10/22 receivers are (even the SS guns have aluminum receivers) painted.
If the flakes get in the works and you think it could be a problem then remove the paint from the interior and just keep it oiled so it doesn't corrode on you. If not, don't worry about it, after all, being on the inside doesn't affect the appearance of the rifle.
Hey, V! I'll save you the trouble of searching the last 700 posts: ;)
The newer receivers, (Last ten years or so), are painted inside. This paint is on the bearing surface where the bolt rides along the "roof" of the receiver and does flake off. When mixed with certain solvents and lubricants it becomes a nice, sticky goo. (Read: FTF, FTE, etc)
The fix? Just strip the inside of the receiver along the roof. If the surface is a little rough, just polish it. I've had nary a problem with any of mine after doing such.
Guy: Do you think there's anything to that post #? :o
Now, come on 35! 35, 35, 35! Come on 35! ^-^
My "stainless" receiver did not come with any paint on the inside as far as I can tell.....
Quote from: fepowered on December 09, 2008, 06:48:34 PM
My "stainless" receiver did not come with any paint on the inside as far as I can tell.....
Oh c'mon... you were just going for 35 with that reply.... c'mon, be honest...
This is a real poor man's version of FIRST!
I know, LAST!
Come on 35! 35, 35, 35! Come on 35!
Quote from: Junior Birdman on November 11, 2008, 10:56:41 AM
Dangit! I wanted to start page 34! Oh well, there's always page 35....or 36.....or 132,691
Congrats on starting page 34 Sav, you'll like having that LTR handy when you get to the shoots. Mine just made another Rifleman this past weekend. (I think that technically, I get 17% credit for this)
Hey JB,
I give you close to 17% credit for my Rifleman score. I used my own Rifle, so you only get the credit for your Instruction.
I received the Tech-Sites for the LTR and will have it ready for the Scouts this coming weekend at the Piru Appleseed.
BTW you should be getting really close to 35. ;D
~SS
Quote from: Francis Marion on December 08, 2008, 03:19:35 AM
Let it wear. It does no harm flaking off with use. Patchiness isn't ugly- it's inability to hit that's ugly.
At My first AS I would wipe down my LTR constantly ... every time dust or grass would get on it. And, if it got a scratch on it, that was the end of the world. After all, take care of your LTR, it will take care of you. But,
I have since learned much about rifles. That scratch just gives it character, reminds me of what we've been through together. For the 10/22 I have since acquired the stainless steel bbl. And, yes, it was painted with some old gray paint that turned to goo while cleaning. I just kept cleaning and polishing until it is all gone. The paint seemed to impede smooth operation with the bolt. Now all are polished, dry, and work quite smoothly. It is a pleasure to shoot now.
For the newbies, take advantage of the knowledge base at an AS event. Ask questions about cleaning. I think the turning point for me was when Scout showed me how to pull the lower off my 10/22 and clean it correctly. Since then I have completely disassembled the LTR down to the trigger springs, sear, etc. Although there are a few little tricks to getting it back together it is not difficult.
And, I don't mind dust and grass ... or scratches.
Now, if I could just fix that inability to hit!
POP
Quote from: V on December 09, 2008, 07:32:15 PM
Oh c'mon... you were just going for 35 with that reply.... c'mon, be honest...
No, Really!!
Not a spec of paint.... 8)
Come on 35.........
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=3755.0
&) !@#) **)
Edited to add this below before someone thinks I'm a sourpuss:
Just teasin', JB. Notice the **) at the end. (Actually I was tryin' to beatcha to 35 myself. ;D)
Quote from: Junior Birdman on December 10, 2008, 12:00:47 AM
Come on 35.........
Nope. You missed it.
Elvis has left the building.
ummmmm . . . and we have three LTRs now.
DADFRIGGINGUMMIT! !@#)
OK, so, while JB is running up his post count ++), I'll make a valuable post concerning LTRs...
Here is a recap of what I think you should buy and what I think you should/could do to a 10/22 to make it a great LTR...
What you should do (if you're comfortable with amateur gunsmithing):
Modify your factory bolt release (saves about $15)
Stone the hammer to reduce creep and lighten the pull a little (saves $30)
De-burr and clean up internals (most are stamped and have a rough edge)
Chamfer the bolt (radius the lower corner, under the notch for the bolt stop; it increases the lever arm on the hammer as well as lightening the weight of the bolt, improving reliability)
(incidentally, great guidance for all of the above mods can be found on www.rimfirecentral.com )
What you should buy (and install yourself, of course...if you're comfortable with it)
Tech-Sights (I HIGHLY recommend the TSR-100s, as the only problems I've seen with elevation have been on the -200s)
DPMS windage knob for AR
Tech-Sights tool (get 2 or 3 of them...you'll end up loaning them out)
Loop sling and sling studs that screw into the WOOD on the stock (I really think that many problems with the barrel bands are due to folks that attach their sling using it instead of drilling into the stock and soundly mounting them there)
Extended mag release (newer 10/22s have a great one, but us with older ones need the upgrade)
Bolt buffer (there are about eleventy-billion of them on the market, find one you like and use it. I've heard of getting nylon bolts that work...haven't tried that yet)
'Nice to haves'...
I like having a flash suppressor on my LTR, as it helps lock in the Tech-Sights front post...and I like the look.
VQ or Power Custom extractor (some have had problems extracting with factory stuff if its old)
A spare parts kit can be built from factory 10/22 parts pretty cheaply:
Recoil spring/guide rod/handle assembly
Extractor plunger
Extractor spring
Extractor (keep your factory one if you upgrade)
Multiple magazines...I like the factory ones, due to reliability. I'm going to try a mod that JB suggested (don't know where it came from, but I heard it from him at the Eight-OH-Eight RBC) and epoxy on a brass cabinet knob to the bottom of the factory mag to add weight and give a purchase to pull it free...I had some problems extracting mags from my Hogue stocked 10/22 this summer...lesson learned.
Now, the biggest problem with 10/22s (or any autoloading rimfire, for that matter) is that they can be picky with ammo...finding what your rifle likes is not usually a cheap proposition. Unfortunately, ammo manufacturers are getting away from 'brick' ammo sales and forcing retailers to sell by the box instead. Bulk ammo is still available, but it tends to be less accurate and consistent. We're looking for 3-4 moa, so we're not really uber-precise, but repeatability is very nice. Nothing really to add, except to figure out what your rifle likes and stock up on it. My 'squirrel gun' (the VQ-barreled, scoped 10/22 that I've had forever) likes the subsonic ammo and works well with it after my mods. My LTR happens to like the Remington Golden Bullet value pack (525 rds, I think I got it at Wally World). Winchester Super-X 40grn HP or Round nose works well, but you can't get them in bulk anymore...so they're likely out.
The other major problem with 10/22s is the 'bug'...you get bitten and want to modify like crazy...which is cool, if you want a fun range toy. LTRs should be simulators of your battle rifle, so IMHO, I think you should avoid match hammers and barrels, exotic stocks and optics and such. Reliability problems abound with the 'Bentz' chamber on higher dollar barrels, as well as issues with extracting unfired rounds. Stoning the hammer to reduce the creep (a lot) and pull (a little) is all that is needed for an LTR; the factory barrel is MORE than adequate for our uses, and the factory stock can be easily shortened or lengthened as needed for loaner LTRs.
Well, enough 'back on track' stuff...JB, you may continue... :D
MCKNBRD,
Now *that's* a useful post.
I haven't done all of that yet. Looks like I have some work to do on my three LTRs.
(Even though it's useful, it's not nearly as entertaining as JB's).
I found a device on Gunbroker that will take care of the barrel sag problem on some 10/22s, The device takes the place of the barrel block and has a set screw that pushes up on the barrel so your front sight doesn't have to be all the way up. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=118256107 I've ordered a couple for my 10/22s.
I'd be afraid anything on the barrel out there (between the barrel and the wood) might affect groups as the rifle is worked through an AQT. A .22 rimfire might not get hot enough to begin putting pressure on the barrel so it might not be an issue.
My 10/22, with Tech Sights was shooting so far to the right that my rear sight was almost touching the sight frame/base on the left side. The 10/22 barrel (once the action is removed from the stock) can be pulled out of the receiver by removing those two allen head screws under the barrel that screw into the receiver. I cut a shim (sort of cresent moon shaped) out of a diet pepsi can and slipped it between the barrel and the receiver on the right side and first tightened down the left side screw followed by the right sight scew. The "pulled" the barrel to the left enough that I could just about center my rear sight in the base. Didn't seem to affect the feeding/extraction/ejection at all. The shim is invisible, the barrel is tight against the receiver.
If mine was shooting high or low I'd try the same thing. Wonder if some of them shoot low because the two bolts clamping the barrel to the receiver are on the bottom of the barrel/receiver? A little extra "unintended clearance" in the receiver might give the barrel enough slop room to allow the bolts to "pull" it down when clamped in. Just a thought.
I have the recoil buffers in all my 10/22s <:)
Finally mounted my dedicated .22 upper to my Fulton Armory lower; $300- for an assembled lower WITH a trigger job is one hell of a deal! Picked up an M68 CCO (red dot sight) clone at the local airsoft store - and am REALLY looking forward to putting this girl through her paces!
Get yerself some really good performance,
Save the grief and heartache of accessorizing
relieve yourself of the tinkering
and save some real money
Save RWVA about 65 Gazillion MB on the server too
Buy yourself a Marlin 795.
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=4148.0
I'll just say this. I've had 10/22s for nearly 30 years. My own LTR has more than 6000 rounds through it, (probably just short of 10,000 rounds, come to think of it now), and has helped a few folks make Rifleman.
I've never put a lot of money in them because they are trainers. I've never put in any aftermarket extractors, bolts, firing pins, triggers, etc, and I've never had any problems with FTF, FTE, Fail to Anything. I mounted Tech Sights because it makes it more Appleseed Friendly. (The thing has a LOT of different shooters and gets sight changes very often. The Ruger sights don't lend themselves to that! :P)
I've never worried about my tech sights being off center to the left or right, since they shoot 2 moa groups right where they're supposed to. I've never worried about the barrel drooping because , well, see the last sentence. Basically, it's a simple rifle which works day in and day out and will perform well beyond anything required of it by Appleseed standards.
I do understand tinkering. I love to tinker and experiment with rifles too. But when it comes down to it, the 10/22, right out of the box, will do just what we want it to: Train marksmen. If you want to tinker, go ahead, it's fun. Is any of this stuff really needed to make the rifle train Riflemen? Nah, not really.
If you want to buy a different kind of rifle and put it on the line for others to shoot, have at it! I can guarantee you that it'll perform better than the shooter will ever shoot. Put on a scope, tech sights, modify the bolt, crown, trigger or anything else you want. The main thing is to get rifles out there on the line putting rounds downrange and hammering out Riflemen.
This thread has about 785,394 posts now, many of which are repeats, many of which are multilple repeats. Many are "Why I hate the 10/22" posts, others are "Why Your Rifle Sux and How to Fix It" posts. But the truth is that every time I go to an Appleseed, I see many of the 10/22s on the line, shooting, building skills, and if they're cleaned more than once a lifetime or so, FUNCTIONING properly. ;D (And that seems to go for ANY rifle for some reason....hmmmm)
Get an extra rifle or two. Take them to an Appleseed. Loan them to other shootrs to build the skills. That is what LTRs are about. Each kind of rifle on the line has good and not so good things about it. But in the end that's not what matters. JB
Quote from: Junior Birdman on December 20, 2008, 01:42:43 PM
If you want to buy a different kind of rifle and put it on the line for others to shoot, have at it! I can guarantee you that it'll perform better than the shooter will ever shoot. Put on a scope, tech sights, modify the bolt, crown, trigger or anything else you want. The main thing is to get rifles out there on the line putting rounds downrange and hammering out Riflemen.
Agreed.
Run whatcha brung.
Get off the couch, come shoot, and get involved. (Bail, Baby, Bail!)
JB summed it up nicely; talking hardware is fun. Modding and tinkering with 10/22s (or any gun, for that matter) is fun. I've heard it at Appleseed, I've heard it in the military; professionals and experts talk software. We know that its the loose nut behind the trigger that makes the hole go where it needs to, whether at 25 yards, 250, 500, or beyond. Amateurs talk hardware; which gun is better for this or that or what super-tacticool accessory gadget that I need on my rig to make it effective against mutant zombie monkeys that are in cahoots with rabid, flesh-eating squirrels or something.
We have fun with what you would like to have on your LTR. We know, though, when it comes down to it, a decent rifle with good sights and a cool, competent operator on its trigger is more effective than 15lbs worth of tacticool lightweight s**t hanging off of the weapon.
Besides, we know that a suppressed .22LR is the ultimate zombie gun. ;)
Amen Birdman,
My LTR, sling swivels, sling, xtra mags, mag release, bolt release mod, tech sights and hammer mod totals out at less than $350.00 complete. Thats just a little more than what I'd have spent on ammo for my MBR at my first AS. It also gives me a cheap practice platform. Once I can shoot Rifleman with it, I'll build another as a loaner and shoot Saturday part of an AS with LTR and Sunday with MBR. Ammo savings will also help to afford taking a week off to attend a boot camp.
So far about 700 rds of Federal Automatch & Champion through it w/o malfunction. Let it run all weekend at AS w/o cleaning just to see if it would. Only problem front tech sight loosened up then later fell off (after 2nd round of blue loctite). Red stuff fixed problem.
G
Capt, excuse me, but once you can shoot Rifleman with it,
we need you instructing O0 and turning out more Riflemen :~
Get to the shoot the night before and enjoy a little IPT.
Sorry.
IPT: Instructor Play Time
PJ,
That is the goal.
G ;)
I'm feeling lucky........come on 36......36, 36, 36.......come on 36!
JB,
Trying to help the cause here.... Found a good price on the Marlin 795s. Extra mags too. Do they work / function as an LTR as well as 10/22 at an AS? If so, I might pick up a couple to set up as loaners.
EEL
Quote from: Junior Birdman on December 26, 2008, 07:55:39 PM
I'm feeling lucky........come on 36......36, 36, 36.......come on 36!
Come on JB
Each page is 20 posts no matter how long each post is &)
You must know this ;)
So here you go page 36 :) 8) :o
:~
Izat the secret!?!?!? OK! Now that I know THAT little tidbit! ^-^
Quote from: Junior Birdman on December 27, 2008, 12:12:45 PM
Izat the secret!?!?!? OK! Now that I know THAT little tidbit! ^-^
Kinda took the fun out of it, didn't it? ;D
An innovative Californian adds Tech Sights and M14 stock to his 10-22, creating a beautifully scaled LTR:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=1832699&posted=1#post1832699
Quote from: Junior Birdman on December 26, 2008, 07:55:39 PM
I'm feeling lucky........come on 36......36, 36, 36.......come on 36!
JB, don't you have anything BETTER to do than to post this useless drivel? (http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a29/canthsrider/smilies/bottom.gif) Enough already. Go over to ARFcom if you want to be a post whore.
EEL, as to the Marlins, you'll need multiple mags, for sure. Just get rifles on the line. I've seen no problems with them. Will they allow B&D and multiple dryfire with empty mags? (Maybe I'm thinking about the Remingtons) (Some require a round in the mag to be able to actuate the bolt....Lawyers?)
Come on 37.............. ::)
Quote from: Junior Birdman on January 05, 2009, 03:30:36 PM
EEL, as to the Marlins, you'll need multiple mags, for sure. Just get rifles on the line. I've seen no problems with them. Will they allow B&D and multiple dryfire with empty mags? (Maybe I'm thinking about the Remingtons) (Some require a round in the mag to be able to actuate the bolt....Lawyers?)
Come on 37.............. ::)
Yep. The empty mag locks open the bolt, but there is a bolt lock lever that will allow you to manually close the bolt on an empty mag (or easily lock the bolt open) as needed.
I went to Marlin's web today and pulled up the owner's manual on the 795. It says the gun will ONLY FIRE WITH THE MAGAZINE IN PLACE. It seems to be a safety feature. Maybe not unlike Hi-Powers and some S & W pistols. I tried to contact them via phone with no luck. If that is true, then they would not be a good choice for an LTR as the only way you could dry fire would be to insert a magazine. And THAT ain't gonna happen at an AS!! >:(
I'll try them again tomorrow. Tell 'em they're losin' a TON of business to Ruger and their 10/22.
When I get something solid from them, I'll post it.
EEL
Quote from: EEL on January 05, 2009, 08:50:35 PM
I went to Marlin's web today and pulled up the owner's manual on the 795. It says the gun will ONLY FIRE WITH THE MAGAZINE IN PLACE. It seems to be a safety feature. Maybe not unlike Hi-Powers and some S & W pistols. I tried to contact them via phone with no luck. If that is true, then they would not be a good choice for an LTR as the only way you could dry fire would be to insert a magazine. And THAT ain't gonna happen at an AS!! >:(
I'll try them again tomorrow. Tell 'em they're losin' a TON of business to Ruger and their 10/22.
When I get something solid from them, I'll post it.
EEL
Uh... you lost me. Nothing wrong with inserting a mag during ball and dummy. ???
Roger that. I mean dry fire during the prep period. The Guy really stresses to use the prep time to dry fire, dry fire, dry fire. If a mag MUST be in to dry fire during prep period :-X .........Don't think we even want to go there!!!!!!
Quote from: EEL on January 05, 2009, 09:03:26 PM
Roger that. I mean dry fire during the prep period. The Guy really stresses to use the prep time to dry fire, dry fire, dry fire. If a mag MUST be in to dry fire during prep period :-X .........Don't think we even want to go there!!!!!!
Absolutely.
However, you can still practice the six steps and dry fire without cocking the action, but the trigger pull will be different.
This isn't all that bad as I find it sometimes easier to see if I'm influencing the rifle during my trigger squeeze without the hammer actually dropping. Try it, you might be surprised.
Can't resist it....
If a tree falls in the forest an no one is there to hear it, did it really make any noise?
If no hammer is released by the trigger pull, is it really dry firing?
:) ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8) ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :'( >:D ^-^ O0 <:) %) #) &) @) **) !@#) ++) @@) $$-0 :)) @&) :~
Er, um... that would be simulated dry-firing... I think. ;D
I may be strange, but it works for me anyway.
Try it. You may be strange, too. :o
Ummmmmm....I had an older Marlin795 and I could dry fire with the mag dropped....It must be a new feature......I'll find out soon enough ;)
Quote from: MeanStreaker on November 06, 2008, 10:15:03 PM
Hey everyone, based on previous posts in this thread, I ordered a couple of these DPMS Rear Sight Windage Knobs (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=353544) since my LTRs will probably be passed around a lot and it would be nice to easily zero for different shooters.
I put together various bits of advice from different sources and came up with a complicated but surefire method using Dremel drill bits as pin punches:
1. Secure windage drum to sight with a padded vise-grip pliers to keep parts from jumping off
2. Use 3/64" drill bit shaft (broke off the bit end) to drive out roll pin
3. Placed rifle over large tray to catch parts and took off piers - drum, washer and detent pin came off but spring stayed in detent pin hole
4. Line up hole in bolt parallel with barrel and note which way hole through new knob goes
5. With rifle left side up, place spring in hole and set detent pin on spring, balanced in correct position
6. Set washer & knob over bolt and push down to push detent back into detent hole
7. Secure with 1/32" dill bit through hole to line everything up and put vise grip pliers back on
8. Slide roll pin over 1/32" dril bit and tap back in using 3/64" drill shaft
9. Pull out 1/32" drill bit and use 3/64" to check roll pin is centered
10. Take off pliers
The knob is very tight and can't be turned easily by hand, so maybe the washer isn't needed?
Old Dog,
Your post on 5 Jan regarding the hammer fall and dry firing caused me to recall a really dumb day at the range last fall.
I thought, since it was such a long drive, I'd take all of my long guns - and I did. Now shooting an M-1, an M-1 Carbine, two Lee-Enfields, a CAR-15, a Mini-14, and three .22s was fun, but when I got home I had to clean them all!
Here's the dumb part. I started from the largest caliber and worked down to my grandfather's Winchester Model 90 pump gun in .22 short (Gramps got it when he was about 10 in 1908 and gave it to me 50 years later). Since I was wearing both ear plugs and ear muffs, when I squeezed the first round I didn't hear it fire. Yet when I looked just off my mat there was a brand new .22 short brass laying in the grass. I glassed the target and found the hole at about 7 o'clock. So, I just figured I had on MORE than enough hearing protection for a .22 short. I fired four more rounds and glassed the target - only two new holes. I was a little disappointed. Fired five more and glassed the target - no new holes. Fired the last five, glassed the target, no new holes. I was furious. Went down range and pulled my target - yep, three holes only. I got even more furious. Packed up my guns, rolled up my mat, and to my chagrin, found 12 unfired rounds and three fired cases next to my mat. I had broken the firing pin and the recoil and noise of a .22 short is so "bad" that I was loading, squeezing, ejecting, etc and not firing a round. Ah, life in the country...
just chiming in to account for one more LTR in the new england area. file photo attached.
by the way, prices are going up. the 10/22RB cost me $225 (well, ok, its new england), and the TSR200 tech sights with A1 adjustment tool, courtesy of EEL, were another $70.
depending how well i do with this LTR at my first appleseed, i will consider bedding the action and/or the barrel, which is probably just a few more bucks. i intend to qualify with this and not my MBR so that when i bring someone along next time, they can't complain that "it's the rifle." O0
$0.02: were i to build a second LTR, i would probably go with the marlin 60. not that the marlin is necessarily better, or cheaper, or anything, but given the cost of "going ruger," i would rather experiment with a different rifle, and develop the LTR concept.
I hope you meant to say the Marlin 795. It is mag fed. The Marlin 60 is a tube job.
Don't want to see you order the wrong rifle one day.
EEL
hmm.. possibly some used car salesmen at the local gun store. i'll spend some time on marlin's website.
Well, my son is signed up for March at Evansville Indiana, I will shoot in April at Cloverdale I hope. I worked over my 10/22 this week. I shortened the breechface .025 to tighten up the chamber, checked with 8 different types ammo to make certain I didn't go too far. Polished the breechblock, chamfered the rear of the breechblock and the hammer face. Turned a piller and bedded the receiver. Did a minor trigger job, tested safe, not too light, about 4.5 lbs. Finally, I added a sling and repainted the receiver. We will see how much improvement I made in a day or two, I have eight different boxes of 22LR to test.
Sights... I want to install Williams sights, I know them, I trust them. My concern is the height of the tech sights. I can't understand why they are so tall. However I am thinking that as this rifle will be a loaner the tech sights are certainly far easier to adjust while at the line, and other instructors will be familiar with them.
Are the Tech sights the best bet? Are they usable for a non-scope shooting rifleman like me?
DAve
Come on 37...............
Quote from: Junior Birdman on February 08, 2009, 08:02:08 AM
Come on 37...............
That must have made your day, JB. ;D
He DID it!!! ^5 JB
Hey Jake, I have no experience with the Williams sights. If you prefer them they should be what you put on your rifle. It sounds like you are doing a lot of work. It is good to find out which ammo your Rifle likes.
I have tech-sights on my Granddaughters 10-22 and she likes them. They are really easy to adjust and, as you said, most of the Instructors are familiar with them.
I was wondering about something else. I have 2 10-22's with tech-sights and I was thinking about putting a scope on the 3rd. Does anyone have any thoughts on that? Is there any particular scope that is good for what we do at Appleseed?
Thanks.
~SS
SavageShootr,
I'm real partial to Leupold scopes of any model. I've got 2 LTR's w/ tech-sights and one with a Leupold 4xrimfire for hunting or Appleseeder's with less than perfect vision and I love it!! They're not cheap by any stretch but they're crystal clear!!
Fireman
Thanks Fireman Ed. I have a Leupold scope on my Savage. It does get the job done. Though I don't think it is specific to rimfire. I will have to check that out.
~SS
I'm looking to add a scope to an LTR.
This will be my first scope purchase so I'm climbing the learning curve and trying to avoid a newbie mistake.
Is it important to have an Adjustable Objective to adjust for Parallax error when shooting the AQT at 25yards. Most Rimfire scopes are set for longer distances. What happens when you shoot within the adjusted difference? The one inch square is small enough without having to compensate for the scopes optical error.
I'm choosing between a 4x 32mm and a 3-9x 40mm. I suspect that either one would work fine. The question of AO always seems to come up when comparing the two.
Thank's in advance to the Appleseed Community for it's counsel.
I don't think an AO is necessary. It is for removing parallex (sp) at longer ranges. I use a tasco 4 X 32 on my LTR. As you will probably set it for 25 yrds / meters and leave it, I wouldn't spend a ton on glass. Now if you intend on tricking out your LTR (thumbhole stock, heavy free floated barrel, match firing control etc) and use high $$$ ammo to shoot asprin at 100 yards, then your glass should match OR exceed the cost of your rifle.
One thing with glass...Usually you get what you pay for.
My thoughts, that's all.
EEL
I would also add to EEL's reccomendation...
If you do go cheap, go with the fixed power. I constantly see folks (including my son Wetfoot) using their scopes as spotting scopes. At first they insist on using the highest power which then screws with their heads because they can easily see their misses, and then once you talk them into using the lowest power, they start cranking it up to see their shot string and then backing it back down to shoot the next string. Sure enough, by the time they are really close to hit rifleman, and bam, their zero has shifted, and they have nice, though off centered groups and they miss the brass ring flying by them.
A scope is a good idea for older eyes; we just can't see the front sight as clearly as we should. I've found lower power scopes (or lower power settings on variables) to be more useful for 25 meter shooting. At higher powers wobble is more visible (and distracting), the shooter is looking at the target rather than the crosshairs, and eye relief can be more critical. Ideally, scopes are mounted far enough forward so the shooter has a full, clear presentation with no dark ring boundary ring. In practice, most 22's have a fairly short receiver and, for me, the scope can't be mounted far enough forward. In this situation, I simply use the scope as I would a peep sight: I center the crosshairs in the dark ring and find and maintain a consistent check weld to keep them there. The consistent check weld also elminates any parallax error.
Ditto the old eyes, Ash. I have "Offset" mounts on the squirrel gun, it allows the scope to go pretty far forward.
Just remember folks that unlike iron sights, you can't vary the eye relief for the scopes. What we see at Appleseeds is folks showing up with their favorite squirrel gun which has the scope set for standing (Or more likely, sitting at a bench! You know I always take a bench in the woods when I hunt!) so the first time they drop to prone the scope is impossible to use due to the shortened eye relief.
It is suggested that you set the scope up for use in prone because you can more easily adjust cheek weld forward to make eye relief in sitting or standing than you can prone. AO/ parralax doesn't seem to be a factor.
Also remember that every person you loan this thing out to will twist the knobs to suit them so it needs to have easy to use adjustments. That is the reason we like the Tech Sights so much. My LTR (Tech Sights) has been through too many shooters to count and they all adjust the sights.
I don't even touch them before loaning it out because they SHOULD have to adjust them so they learn how to! In fact, I don't think I'd recommend more than getting the thing within and inch or two before loaning it out. That way the shooter gets to learn how to zero a rifle. Not much value in handing a shooter a rifle that YOU zeroed.
As you recall, we don't care where the rounds hit for the first half of the day anyway because we're looking for tightening groups. Once they get the groups shrunk we allow them to adjust to the center of the square.
You can spend really big bucks and a lot of time to make a hair splitting rifle, but truth is that the off the rack 10/22 from Wal Mart will shoot much tighter than 90% of the shooters out there and involves no tuning or extra money unless you want to mount sights or optics. JB
I wasn't so concerned about target accuracy, the bedding makes the rifle much easier to reassemble, the chamber on this rifle was loose to an extreme (accuracy was always "plinker" grade), and I chamfered and polished the bolt to make operation a bit smoother for beginners. The trigger job didn't lightened it at all, just got rid of the gritty feel.
I'm looking at the Savage and Mossburg rifles now, the 10/22s are getting pretty pricey to built another LTR. Anyone have experience with either of those rifles?
DAve
Hi, Guys and Gals,
Rifleman here. I am thinking of combining a standard 10-22 barreled action with a Tapco extending stock to create a near clone of my ACOG equipped S&W MP15 Carbine. My old eyes don't do iron sights very well anymore and the ACOG is a great sight for my 16" bbl AR with just about dead-on trajectory compensation with the AE223N cartridge.
I plan on using my Bushnell Trophy 1x (ACOG look-alike) with the red/greem T-dot reticle on this new rifle.
Do any of you have any experience with a similar project?
Mountainman
Quote from: mountainman on February 26, 2009, 08:54:12 PM
Do any of you have any experience with a similar project?
There is always a first for everything... O0
Quote from: yellowhousejake on February 10, 2009, 12:22:43 PM
I wasn't so concerned about target accuracy, the bedding makes the rifle much easier to reassemble, the chamber on this rifle was loose to an extreme (accuracy was always "plinker" grade), and I chamfered and polished the bolt to make operation a bit smoother for beginners. The trigger job didn't lightened it at all, just got rid of the gritty feel.
I'm looking at the Savage and Mossburg rifles now, the 10/22s are getting pretty pricey to built another LTR. Anyone have experience with either of those rifles?
DAve
I plan to bring my USGI Mossburg M44 to the Appleseed. I'm told that others have been successful if they have done enough advance prep work to be vey comfortable with working the action and maintaining their natural point of aim. (I have some homework to do)
I think most folks find the Tapco stock nearly impossible to get a decent cheek weld on. Try before you buy!
Quote from: eaglescouter on February 27, 2009, 01:17:44 AM
I plan to bring my USGI Mossburg M44 to the Appleseed. I'm told that others have been successful if they have done enough advance prep work to be vey comfortable with working the action and maintaining their natural point of aim. (I have some homework to do)
One of my local IIT's has shot numerous Rifleman scores with my Remington 513-T, and liked it so much he went out and bought one for himself.
I installed my TSR100 yesterday so I couldn't wait to get down the range today... :)
I shot my first group and it was a couple of inches high, so I reached into my range bag and pulled out my AR sighting tool... ^-^
4 pins, while the Techsight has more than that...
Darn! Nobody told me that!
I thought I could use the AR tool, so I didn't buy the techsight tool... :(
The Tech Sight uses the A1 sight tool (five prongs), the new AR's with the square post (A2 sight) use the 4 prong tools. DPMS used to make a dual tool with both A1 and A2 prongs; a useful accessory for an Appleseed Instructor in his shoot-bag.
Wow, I have done it! I have read all 37 pages, I now feel qualified to make my own LTR. Good thing I ordered the parts today...
OK, I'm officially annoyed. (go ahead and get it out of your system, JB... I'll wait)
Just went to MidwayUSA's site last night (while I was sitting on the couch watching TV, no less!) to order some stuff and found that the DPMS sling referenced below has been manufacturer discontinued.
Quote from: Nickle on August 13, 2007, 09:30:18 PMInstall sling swivels studs, detachable swivels and a USGI M1 Garand type sling.http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=777813 (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=777813) $10.29, black, also comes in green.
Anyone got an alternative sling that is comparable and not too expensive? I want to order a bunch to keep in my range bag for when I'm instructing.
There are so many invalid links in this discussion thread that we need an update with valid data in the first post!
Re: Midway slings:
item 777813 (green Garand style sling) is no longer available. The black sling (174603) still is available.
M1 style sling, new production from midwayusa.com:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=1413174603
Green: Discontinued
Black: Out of Stock. Backorders ok, estimated delivery 3/23/09
I have four of these nice and long
CJ Weapons M1 Garand Web Sling Cotton Olive Drab
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=966254
Status: Out of Stock, Backorder OK
Date Expected In-Stock: 3/16/2009
"Which 10/22 should I use to get started? -- There are a lot of options: rifles, carbines, heavy-barrelled target rifles, even receivers that allow one to build a complete rifle with custom components. One of the most-popular options for many adult shooters is a 22" barreled rifle from WalMart, available for just over $200. Small-framed adults and children may prefer the slightly smaller 10/22 Carbine. Any 10/22 is a good starting point for your Liberty Trainer."
Question: Those of us in California have discovered that our WalMart stores do not sell rifles. Which Ruger is the next best option for building a LTR?
I looked at the Target models with bull barrels, but they all lack a front sight.
In this case we would be shopping for an adult over 6' tall.
Eaglescouter
I have purchased a few Ruger 10-22's from Turners. Big5 Sporting Goods has them also, and I hear they are on sale this week (I have not seen the ad). There are probably a few small dealers left that have them as well.
Up In Arms in Fillmore, CA might have or could get.
Hi SavageShootr, There are several rifle shops in town, plus the Big5. The rifle shops are willing to order if they don't carry the specific model.
My question: Which model should I be searching for since the Walmart version is not available? (I have used the Ruger 10/22 Carbine and found it to be too tiny and light for comfortable use)
IMO The standard 10-22 would likely be the best bet.
~SS
Some questions on sling swivels.
1. The 10/22 available at Walmart uses 3/4" screws on its swivels, both front and rear. The screws in the Uncle Mike's swivel set are 1/2 inch for the front. Is that a problem? (It also looks like I'll need to get a set of screws to get one for the rear, also)
2. Has anyone tried getting the swivel part out of the stock Ruger swivels, to salvage the screws? That way, I just need the swivels themselves. Is there something especially frustrating inside the screw that is holing the swivel in place?
3. Is there a vendor with CHEAP shipping? It kind of goes against my frugal outlook to pay almost as much for shipping as I'll pay for the part!
4. Although I wonder what I'm getting myself into, is there enough interest in a group buy for a set of Uncle Mikes QD swivels, with 3/4 screws?
Quote from: eaglescouter on March 11, 2009, 03:07:08 PM
Question: Those of us in California have discovered that our WalMart stores do not sell rifles. Which Ruger is the next best option for building a LTR?
I looked at the Target models with bull barrels, but they all lack a front sight.
In this case we would be shopping for an adult over 6' tall.
Big 5 does have them on sale this week. The ad lists the plain wood stock model for $239. I bought one in Simi on Monday, it rang up as $229, so they gave me the lower price.
The shop in my local town has one for $275, but doesn't want to dicker about the price.
I have a Ruger 10/22, but I recently had my brother go to an appleseed shoot. I have been before and he went to our local walmart and took a savage model 22 which cost him $117.00 dollars and he bought an extra clip and he was set. I was'nt sure if the rifle would do ok or not, but it did great. This was in southwest VA. My 2 cents.
Quote from: SkyDaver on March 11, 2009, 04:25:48 PM
Some questions on sling swivels.
1. The 10/22 available at Walmart uses 3/4" screws on its swivels, both front and rear. The screws in the Uncle Mike's swivel set are 1/2 inch for the front. Is that a problem? (It also looks like I'll need to get a set of screws to get one for the rear, also)
2. Has anyone tried getting the swivel part out of the stock Ruger swivels, to salvage the screws? That way, I just need the swivels themselves. Is there something especially frustrating inside the screw that is holing the swivel in place?
3. Is there a vendor with CHEAP shipping? It kind of goes against my frugal outlook to pay almost as much for shipping as I'll pay for the part!
4. Although I wonder what I'm getting myself into, is there enough interest in a group buy for a set of Uncle Mikes QD swivels, with 3/4 screws?
FWIW, I just buy the 1-1/4" Talon Heavy Duty Sling Swivels - although I have to go to a different Sporting Goods store a few miles away to get the bases for it. Tax is cheaper than shipping - so you now have an excuse to comparison shop! And my 10/22 came without swivels installed, which suits me fine - I got to place mine exactly where I wanted in the wood.
"Hold 'em, squeeze 'em and hit 'em!"
Well the cost and availability of ammo talked me into getting a 10/22. I really wanted to shoot my M1A and M1 Garand but I don't have a ton of ammo (1K per rifle) and thought I should save that until I can get more at a decent price. Here's what I got and the mods I made based on the first post in this thread.
Picture 1 is stock 10/22 rifle "before" shot, and picture 2 is the built rifle "after" picture:
Bone stock from the dealer:
1)
(http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/2364/1022before.jpg) (http://img8.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1022before.jpg)
After mods:
2)
(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/1589/1022after.jpg) (http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1022after.jpg)
Items I added:
Green Mountain Barrel
Tech-Sights front and rear sight (front sight is a special slip on for .920 bull barrels)
Ruger 10/22T stock.
E&L Clip holders for 8 clips
I got the extended clip release, but I kind of like the stock Ruger one, so I'd be happy to pass this on to someone else. I'm waiting to get the auto bolt release part to fix the 2 handed bolt release issue.
I need to figure out how to align the front sight before thread locking the slip over sight in place. any thoughts?
Unfortunately the GM barrel came with some pitting and weird stain like marks all over the barrel. I may have to send it back or get a discount refunded :mad: I wonder if that's normal. I tried some steel wool on the stains and they do not come off.
I think it kind of looks like a mini version of my Springfield Armory M1A Super Match with the SS barrel. I can't wait to shoot it at Allemans next month.
Mooney
It looks great.
A few questions:
1. Where did you find the barrel in stock, and which length did you select?
2. Where did you find the T stock at a good price?
3. How is the cheek weld on this combination? I'm worried that the comb is too low.
Talk to me about your excess clip release, we have a 10/22 here that has the nasty push button kind that is very hard to use.
Thanks! I may eventually refinish the stock in a darker color to resemble the old M1 style stocks, but for now it will do.
The trick to finding the barrel is being willing to pay a bit more for the version that is drilled and tapped for a scope. It's also only 18" long instead of 20 like the barrel i really wanted. I'm hoping the shorter barrel won't matter much. I got it directly from Green Mountain last week. They have the drilled and tapped versions in stock.
The T stock came from the rimfirecentral.com classifieds, I paid $75 for it. Was that too much? I figured with the going rate of $99 for a new aftermarket one, not in stock of course, that $75 wasn't a bad price to pay.
cheek weld is pretty much the same as the original stock. I can't feel much difference. Overall a slight bit thicker, but not noticable really.
I'll PM you info about the extended clip release. I wasn't aware of the push button style release, I was kind of confused as to why folks thought this was better then what I had. Now I understand, since I must have a newer and easier to use style lever.
Thanks,
Mooney
Quote from: mooney on March 15, 2009, 08:54:38 PMI got the extended clip release, but I kind of like the stock Ruger one, so I'd be happy to pass this on to someone else. I'm waiting to get the auto bolt release part to fix the 2 handed bolt release issue.
I need to figure out how to align the front sight before thread locking the slip over sight in place. any thoughts?
I think it kind of looks like a mini version of my Springfield Armory M1A Super Match with the SS barrel. I can't wait to shoot it at Allemans next month.
Mooney
Good looking 10/22, Mooney! And yes, it does look (and, you'll find, handles) like the M1A. One of the many reasons this
is the default LTR. I also have a dedicated .22 upper for my AR - but if you're a wooden stocked rifle kind of guy, this is the way to go. And there's nothing wrong with training at 25 yards with smallbore - 4 MOA is 4 MOA!
Aligning sights - you need to find a buddy who has a rifle vise (or improvise something similar), and adjust your rifle in it until a vertical line down the mddle of the buttplate is plumb. I use a carpenter's square and a small level for this. Then you move to the front sight and position
it so it is in the same plumb line. I'm at work now - will see if I can get some pics of what I'm talking about when I get home tonight.
And yes, the 'issue' extended magazine release works just fine, but you'll be
much happier with the auto bolt release installed - Christies' version goes for less than $20-
See you on the line!
Yeah, I'm kind of a "classic look rifle" kind of a guy. I like the old WWII rifle look. I played with my "black rifle" for so long in the Army that I just don't like the looks of them anymore, been there done that. I'm also hoping to figure out a way to embed 2 of my new Appleseed Challange coins in either side of my stock. I think the magic of the coins will help me shoot Rifleman at Allemans on April 18/19 ;)
FYI - I have to say Green Mountain Barrels has got to be one of the best vendors I've dealt with in a while. They are sending a new barrel out to me, after inspecting it closely for defects, and letting me return the defective one after the new one arrives. No hassel or issues at all and they were very aploigetic. Hard to get this kind of customer service these days so highly recommended.
OK, there's just no way to say this gently. The Shooter's Ridge swivels that we're getting (that are referenced in Roger's post on page 5) just plain suck.
I've had at least THREE die on my loaner LTRs. The cross-piece (the one that goes through the stud) just works it's way loose and falls out. Those things should be welded in, not press-fit. >:(
So I just ordered three sets of Uncle Mike's QD (Midway PN 774577) swivels and three sets of Outdoor Connection's (Midway PN 156955) swivels. I'll report back on how they hold up.
OK, edited that post on page 5 to use Uncle Mike's swivels.
I don't know if they'll be any better or not; I called up Midway and asked their advice. According to the nice young lady who took my order, the Outdoor Connections and the Uncle Mike's both had 5 stars from customer recommendations, so that's why I got both. I'll let you know how they work out as things progress.
I'm not sure any "QD" or stud mounted front sling swivel is made to take much repeated pressure. After all, that's why QD swivels have become so popular. You take it off and put it in your pocket to hunt with it or shoot it and you put the sling back on it to carry the rifle on your shoulder while you drag the deer out of the woods.
What does the military use? Why does the military use what they use?
I put an M14 front sling swivel on my 10/22 and the only way it will pull off the stock is if the stock splits in half.
Oh, the rear sling swivel on my 10/22 is from a 1917 Enfield and it won't fall out or break either. Overkill works.
Quote from: mooney on March 16, 2009, 10:54:30 AM
Yeah, I'm kind of a "classic look rifle" kind of a guy. I like the old WWII rifle look. I played with my "black rifle" for so long in the Army that I just don't like the looks of them anymore, been there done that. I'm also hoping to figure out a way to embed 2 of my new Appleseed Challange coins in either side of my stock. I think the magic of the coins will help me shoot Rifleman at Allemans on April 18/19 ;)
The reason I have the .22 AR is for my own training - that's the platform I'll be carrying when my Battalion deploys at the end of this year, after all - and I figure if I can get some of my Guard buddies on the line with the lure of a black rifle, then it's all to the good!
As to inletting an RWVA coin into a stock - it's obvious we think alike. Disassemble the action from the stock, clamp the stock in some kind of vise or similar arrangement, and use a proper sized Forstner bit to drill a circular recess.
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r111/trent2232/riflestockwcoin1.jpg)
Test fit the coin to make sure the depth of the recess is to your liking...
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r111/trent2232/riflestockwcoin2.jpg)
a dab of epoxy, your coin, and a topcoat of expoxy to seal it in, and you're done!
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r111/trent2232/riflestockwcoin3.jpg)
Must have worked, since I shot Rifleman with it afterward - only took me 4 days of Boot Camp to do so. :-[ Now I just need to put up pics of the completed rifle...
http://www.nodakspud.com/NDS-22.htm
Appears to be a high end 10/22 receiver with a built in peep sight. They even mention Appleseed :)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/NDS-22b.JPG)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/NDS-22c.JPG)
Quote from: eaglescouter on March 21, 2009, 01:43:35 AM
http://www.nodakspud.com/NDS-22.htm
Appears to be a high end 10/22 receiver with a built in peep sight. They even mention Appleseed :)
Here is another thread discussing it..... http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=5214.0 (http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=5214.0) O0
I've read all 39 pages but I still have a question.
I have a 10/22T and a set of Tech sights on the way. What color of Loctite should one use to put the front sight adaptor on the barrel with and what type for the rear sight?
Any advice would be appreciated.
Quote from: guitarzan on March 22, 2009, 10:54:33 AM
I've read all 39 pages but I still have a question.
I have a 10/22T and a set of Tech sights on the way. What color of Loctite should one use to put the front sight adaptor on the barrel with and what type for the rear sight?
Any advice would be appreciated.
From another thread -
Quote from: CaptG on December 09, 2008, 05:34:44 PM
As a comment to the installation guidelines on page one, I'll say that my front is now red loctited in. It loosened up on my LTR mid afternoon Sat at AS and fell completely off a couple hours later after being blue loctited a 2nd time. Since the red, no further problems...
CaptG
When you place the sight adapter on the barrel, there is a slight gap. This adapter is a slip fit and not a pressed fit. Conventional thread locker type Loctite brand liquid is inadequate for such an application. Red threadlocker works OK for some slip fit applications but not when there is a gap. The proper Loctite is the 635 (63531) Retaining Compound or an equivalent. It is green in color although it comes in a red bottle. It is recommended for gaps up to .007" (.18mm).
I disassembled a relatively new, very well treated Ruger 10/22 carbine today.
I was amazed at the amount of aluminum 'dust' that was present in the receiver.
After cleaning and reassembly the action was much smoother.
I then performed the 'Auto Bolt Release' modification as found at rimfirecentral.com. Now the bolt release works just like the one on the M1 Carbine. Simply pull the bolt back and let go. No more fussing with the little lever down under the safety.
Activating the bolt hold open works exactly the same as it does on a stock Ruger. Only the release process is simplified..
Pictures of the modification can be seen at: http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30867 (Note: These are not my images, I simply found them to be helpful.)
So, Tech Sight has come out with an aperture set for the Marlin 795. With Tech Sights, GI Sling, 10 rd magazine (and it looks like bolt hold open), and a good deal cheaper price than the 10/22, I may start picking Marlins up to fill the LTR role instead. What is the average quality and accuracy out of the box with these things. I generally have heard good things about Marlin but have no direct experience. Give me your opinions.
Quote from: Nishnabotna on March 25, 2009, 09:23:55 AM
So, Tech Sight has come out with an aperture set for the Marlin 795. With Tech Sights, GI Sling, 10 rd magazine (and it looks like bolt hold open), and a good deal cheaper price than the 10/22, I may start picking Marlins up to fill the LTR role instead. What is the average quality and accuracy out of the box with these things. I generally have heard good things about Marlin but have no direct experience. Give me your opinions.
Try these links -
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=4148.0
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=5538.0
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=5511.0
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=5484.0
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=4428.0
Quote from: wcmartin1 on March 25, 2009, 09:43:57 AM
Quote from: Nishnabotna on March 25, 2009, 09:23:55 AM
So, Tech Sight has come out with an aperture set for the Marlin 795. With Tech Sights, GI Sling, 10 rd magazine (and it looks like bolt hold open), and a good deal cheaper price than the 10/22, I may start picking Marlins up to fill the LTR role instead. What is the average quality and accuracy out of the box with these things. I generally have heard good things about Marlin but have no direct experience. Give me your opinions.
Try these links -
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=4148.0
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=5538.0
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=5511.0
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=5484.0
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=4428.0
OK, so it looks like the 795 is, if not outright prefered to the 10/22, at least as good as and almost half the price. Should we start thinking about pushing the Marlin over the Ruger as the LTR? I know there's not as much aftermarket support for the Marlin, but what do you really
need after the Tech Sights and the sling?
Quote from: Junior Birdman on December 20, 2008, 01:42:43 PM
I'll just say this. I've had 10/22s for nearly 30 years. My own LTR has more than 6000 rounds through it, (probably just short of 10,000 rounds, come to think of it now), and has helped a few folks make Rifleman.
I've never put a lot of money in them because they are trainers. I've never put in any aftermarket extractors, bolts, firing pins, triggers, etc, and I've never had any problems with FTF, FTE, Fail to Anything. I mounted Tech Sights because it makes it more Appleseed Friendly. (The thing has a LOT of different shooters and gets sight changes very often. The Ruger sights don't lend themselves to that! :P)
I've never worried about my tech sights being off center to the left or right, since they shoot 2 moa groups right where they're supposed to. I've never worried about the barrel drooping because , well, see the last sentence. Basically, it's a simple rifle which works day in and day out and will perform well beyond anything required of it by Appleseed standards.
I do understand tinkering. I love to tinker and experiment with rifles too. But when it comes down to it, the 10/22, right out of the box, will do just what we want it to: Train marksmen. If you want to tinker, go ahead, it's fun. Is any of this stuff really needed to make the rifle train Riflemen? Nah, not really.
If you want to buy a different kind of rifle and put it on the line for others to shoot, have at it! I can guarantee you that it'll perform better than the shooter will ever shoot. Put on a scope, tech sights, modify the bolt, crown, trigger or anything else you want. The main thing is to get rifles out there on the line putting rounds downrange and hammering out Riflemen.
This thread has about 785,394 posts now, many of which are repeats, many of which are multilple repeats. Many are "Why I hate the 10/22" posts, others are "Why Your Rifle Sux and How to Fix It" posts. But the truth is that every time I go to an Appleseed, I see many of the 10/22s on the line, shooting, building skills, and if they're cleaned more than once a lifetime or so, FUNCTIONING properly. ;D (And that seems to go for ANY rifle for some reason....hmmmm)
Get an extra rifle or two. Take them to an Appleseed. Loan them to other shootrs to build the skills. That is what LTRs are about. Each kind of rifle on the line has good and not so good things about it. But in the end that's not what matters. JB
Bottom line - I've got a Marlin 795 and a Ruger 10/22. They both get the job done.
Get the Marlin if you want and fix it up. I'm sure you'll be happy with it. I am.
I wouldn't waste a lot of time on it, though, as we've got more important things to do around here. <:)
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=6348.0
Git-R-Done!
You're a funny man.
Quote from: Nishnabotna on March 25, 2009, 10:53:05 AM
OK, so it looks like the 795 is, if not outright prefered to the 10/22, at least as good as and almost half the price. Should we start thinking about pushing the Marlin over the Ruger as the LTR? I know there's not as much aftermarket support for the Marlin, but what do you really need after the Tech Sights and the sling?
Although there are individuals who prefer the 795 for their own reasons, the 10/22 continues to be the majority choice. They are not significantly more expensive when new and are much more plentiful used as well as new. One can be found or easily made to fit anyone from a toddler to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. The only time the 795 is 1/2 the price is if you are comparing a new 10/22 with a well used 795. You read about so many people modifying the 10/22 simply because it is easy, the parts are available and it is fun. As is evidenced by 1K threads and 100K posts, people just naturally can't seem to leave a stock rifle alone.... :)
Now, one of you Marlin 795 knowledgeable guys really should start a separate LTR thread on it, so the info on what and how to tweak one for Appleseed doesn't get lost in the shuffle.
Quote from: wcmartin1 on March 25, 2009, 09:43:57 AM
Quote from: Nishnabotna on March 25, 2009, 09:23:55 AM
So, Tech Sight has come out with an aperture set for the Marlin 795. With Tech Sights, GI Sling, 10 rd magazine (and it looks like bolt hold open), and a good deal cheaper price than the 10/22, I may start picking Marlins up to fill the LTR role instead. What is the average quality and accuracy out of the box with these things. I generally have heard good things about Marlin but have no direct experience. Give me your opinions.
Try these links -
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=4148.0
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=5538.0
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=5511.0
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=5484.0
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=4428.0
Have a moderator combine these five links into one Marlin 795 LTR thread with a sticky and voila! Done.
Marlin 795 is a good rifle. Marlin makes good stuff. Have a 795. Mags don't drop free. Must break position and use 2 hands on mag change. Mags stick out like a 25rnd on a 10/22 (may, may, compromise newbies getting elbow directly under rifle).
Not as easy to modify as very limited aftermarket accessories (stocks, mags, forearms, grips, barrels, fire control parts, etc.) available.
While it is a good, inexpensive, accurate rifle....I would still go with the 10/22. They are far and away THE most used rifle at an AS. If you break something, loose something, or need a mag.....Chances are someone will have what you need.
Some here swear by the 795........me, for the couple extra $$$, I'd go 10/22
EEL
A friend has been pestering his local WalMart for a 10/22. This weekend, the sporting goods manager (I think) told him that Ruger has backorders from Walmart for around 150,000 10/22s. No way of saying whether said person was correct.
Just as another datapoint, I've not noticed 10/22s advertised in any of the Dick's Sporting Goods or Sports Authority flyers in several months.
I picked one up at Dicks 2 weeks ago and they had others on the rack. They're out there. If your local store is out, have them check inventory of nearby locations and they can hold one for you.
Quote from: eaglescouter on February 27, 2009, 01:17:44 AM
I plan to bring my USGI Mossburg M44 to the Appleseed. I'm told that others have been successful if they have done enough advance prep work to be vey comfortable with working the action and maintaining their natural point of aim. (I have some homework to do)
The biggest hangup most people seem to have w/ shooting a bolt repeater is breaking their cheek weld on the stock.
While this is a requirement w/ an '03 Springfield [or else you'll get the safety on the back of the bolt in your eye, due to the short stock LOP], w/ every .22lr bolty I've ever encountered, it is
completely unnecessary.
Practice in front of the TV, taking aim at the talking heads and working the action w/o losing your sight picture.
After that, the only trouble w/ making the score using a bolt gun is whether or not your rifle has a convenient mag system [the Mossy 44 is only so-so, my Remmy 541x is atrocious! In comparison, the 10-22 is magnificent, mag changes are a breeze, even w/ the factory mag release (which is #1 on the hit parade of things to modify...)]
I wasn't far off the mark last December using my Mossberg, & only found out after the event I had an equipment failure [the front sight was so loose in its dovetail I'm lucky (or was I?) that it didn't fall out while shooting!]: hopefully, I can scare up the money [it sux getting old, for many reasons. Money
should be the least of them, but isn't, for me.. :-\] and get out there again & make the cut using my Mossberg! (No, I'm
not going to bother trying w/ the 541 again, at least not until I fab up some sort of chamfered guide that will prevent my
having to break position every time I swap a mag! $$-0)
As long as we're hijacking this thread.....COME ON 40!!!!!!
Tech Sights were added to a Ruger 10/22 T with a factory bull barrel.
It seems that the sights are too tall to permit a proper cheek weld on the factory stock.
Am I doing it wrong or does the stock now need to be modified?
As a side note: The bull barrel adapter for the front sight post is a loose fit, as if it is machined to large on the inside diameter. The front sight post fits very sloppily and the set screw lifts the leading edge with a rather pronounced gap.
Quote from: eaglescouter on April 05, 2009, 03:41:27 AM
Tech Sights were added to a Ruger 10/22 T with a factory bull barrel.
It seems that the sights are too tall to permit a proper cheek weld on the factory stock.
Am I doing it wrong or does the stock now need to be modified?
As a side note: The bull barrel adapter for the front sight post is a loose fit, as if it is machined to large on the inside diameter. The front sight post fits very sloppily and the set screw lifts the leading edge with a rather pronounced gap.
You can either get another stock, or add a cheek pad (home made or boughten) to your existing stock. It is normal for the adapter to be loose fitting. That is why you use a loctite which is intended to hold sleeves on and fill the gap. It is also normal for the set screw to raise the sight insert slightly because of the loose fit. The set screw will hold just fine.
What if someone were to place shims between the barrel and the sight on the side opposite the set screw? Thereby allowing for less verticle rise.
Quote from: AFTERMATH on April 06, 2009, 12:19:23 AM
What if someone were to place shims between the barrel and the sight on the side opposite the set screw? Thereby allowing for less verticle rise.
This is not an issue as it causes no problems. The looseness is in the dovetail of the adapter for the .920" diameter barrel, not between the barrel and anything. There is not really room for shims and it would be a waste of time. The loose fitting between the barrrel adapter and the barrel has nothing to do with the sight insert raising when the set screw is tightened. The barrel adapter not being snug is just because of the slip fit and is not an issue if the proper loctite is used.
On the affordability issue, just rec'd a Bass Pro flyer. 10/22's for $199.94 thru 4/16.
20in barrel, picture shows no barrel band.
G
I got a brand new 10/22 and am having problems with the mag release. The release moves forward to drop the mag, but you then have to jiggle and tickle the mag out of the reciever. There is no quick drop, in fact the last time I shot the gun I ended up using a screwdriver to pry them out as I held the release forward. I showed it to a gun smith and he said it that he'd be "mad at ruger about that". I know that the older styles have to be pulled toward the trigger guard. Has anyone else experianced this? I plan to replace the trigger assebly with a volquartsen unit which should (better!!) fix this.
Quote from: GoJohnnyGo on April 07, 2009, 07:39:20 AM
I got a brand new 10/22 and am having problems with the mag release. The release moves forward to drop the mag, but you then have to jiggle and tickle the mag out of the reciever. There is no quick drop, in fact the last time I shot the gun I ended up using a screwdriver to pry them out as I held the release forward. I showed it to a gun smith and he said it that he'd be "mad at ruger about that". I know that the older styles have to be pulled toward the trigger guard. Has anyone else experianced this? I plan to replace the trigger assebly with a volquartsen unit which should (better!!) fix this.
The factory Ruger mag was designed to be removed with two fingers. The thumb pushs the release straight up, and the mag is grasped between that thumb and index finger. Try a thourough cleaning and lightly lubricating the mag release mechanism, or you can replace it with an aftermarket extended mag release, I leave mine stock with the exception of a trigger job and replacement sights.
Check for flashing on the mags from when the plastic was cast. Sometimes that keeps the mags from dropping free. With use, the factory mags should drop free. You might even want to polish them up woith a little sandpaper to make them break in faster.
With the magazine in the gun you should be able to insert a standard business card freely on either side of the mag all the way up into the magwell to the action itself. It should have that much clearance.
If not, consider sanding the mag well portion of the stock until you have that much clearance.
Quote from: Junior Birdman on April 04, 2009, 04:59:09 PM
As long as we're hijacking this thread.....COME ON 40!!!!!!
**) **) **)
In preparing for the Appleseed next weekend my wife and I have been doing a fair amount of shooting with our Ruger 10/22 Liberty Training Rifles. Today we discovered that our factory magazines would no longer reliably feed. When shooting you could hear the magazine advance a round a second or more after a shot was fired.
Online research indicated that the magazines were probably full of so much bullet lube/wax that proper rotation of the rounds in the magazine was becoming impossible.
I located this tutorial and used it to solve my problem: http://www.heypete.com/pete/shooting/rugermag.html
During the cleaning process I found a thick rim of bullet wax that needed to be scraped off the walls of the magazine.
I've heard that the mags never need maintenance (don't believe it, FWIW) and they need cleaning once every 10 years (I'm closer to that).
Best thing I've heard for short-notice (ie: on the firing line and the mags start sticking) cleaning is to soak them down with brake or carb cleaner, give it a couple of minutes to dry out (easier if you have compressed air), then pour it full of trans fluid and let it soak for 10-15 minutes.
Drain the trans fluid, blow it out with compressed air (if avail, of course) or shake the bejeezus out of it to get as much out as possible, then load and go.
Thing with trans fluid instead of regular oil is that trans fluid has many more detergents and is designed to stand up to MUCH longer abuse than most oils, and it sticks to the internals better.
Of course, YMMV, but this seems to be a good Q&D route to go.
Byrdman
I you have an allen wrench you could clean one faster than spraying, dribbling, and blowing. If you leave you mag damp with tranny fluid it's going to attract all kinds of grit.
Quote from: clodhopper on April 15, 2009, 08:17:58 PM
I you have an allen wrench you could clean one faster than spraying, dribbling, and blowing. If you leave you mag damp with tranny fluid it's going to attract all kinds of grit.
I've placed a 9/64" Allen wrench in my range bag in case we need to clean out a 10/22 mag, and a 5/64" Allen wrench in there in case we've got some loose Tech Sights. AND a tube of Loctite.
Quote from: Junior Birdman on April 04, 2009, 04:59:09 PM
As long as we're hijacking this thread.....COME ON 40!!!!!!
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a29/canthsrider/smilies/nutkick.gif)
JB, it was funny the first 10 or 20 times. The first time you did it, you were a wit. The second time makes you a half-wit, and it gets worse from there. Enough. Why don't you just stop reading the thread if you don't like it?
Who said I didn't like this thread???? As a matter of fact I LOVE this thread! I check it daily for important and relevant information I can use. 10 or 20 times I've done that??? Man, I've told you a million times, don't exagerate! I understand your personal opinion of me is pretty low, but a PM would have been a better way to let me know. Kicking others in the crotch in public is not nice.
Now......Come on 41!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: Junior Birdman on April 16, 2009, 05:24:38 PMKicking others in the crotch in public is not nice.
Now......Come on 41!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*sigh* Maybe I'll get better results with a clownbat. &)
That's OK, JB, he was known as the Spelling Nazi at the NortheastShooters forum.
Hoping to be helpful, one doesn't have to check any particular thread for updates. Use the subscribe function
QuotePlace keeper for something witty about JBs next post.
There you go JB
Quote from: Nickle on April 16, 2009, 05:55:44 PM
That's OK, JB, he was known as the Spelling Nazi at the NortheastShooters forum.
Please. I was the Resident Grammarian. ;) Never a Nazi. &)
QuoteQuoteThat's OK, JB, he was known as the Spelling Nazi at the NortheastShooters forum.
Please. I was the Resident Grammarian. Never a Nazi.
You say 'Taters, I say 'Tatters.....Cinnamon and sugary and softly spoken lies, Ya never know just how ya look through other peoples eyes..
Always "dry" clean rotary mags..as clodhopper says "wet" lube attracts grit and dirt....
Play nice...
Wheeler44
Just 41 pages?
The LTR thread in northeastshooters is up to 36 pages...
Plus the rimfire.com pages on the mods...
It's getting a bit disorganized and hard to find information on the 10/22 LTR.
I'm thinking I need to buy a different kind of rifle just so I don't have to sort through so many threads...
I bid on a 1927 stevens .22lr single shot - still quicker than a musket, but less to know about than a 10/22.
Think of all the time I'll save preping mags!
(hijack! hijack!)
For anybody interestd with my post on pg 40... I solved the problem I've been having with my mags not dropping by HEAVILY sanding the sidewalls of the stock with a dremel. It took a lot more work than it should of and I'm pretty disappointed with Hogue for shipping me a fairly expensive stock in this state. But, nonetheless things are working smoothly now and I got an excuse to tinker out of it...no harm no foul. :~
Please recommend a scope for this rifle (10/22). I've got a .920 bull barrel so tech sights are out ( I know they just released an adapter but the barrel's threaded, so thats a no go). Ideas?
Quote from: GoJohnnyGo on April 20, 2009, 02:59:51 PM
Please recommend a scope for this rifle (10/22). I've got a .920 bull barrel so tech sights are out ( I know they just released an adapter but the barrel's threaded, so thats a no go). Ideas?
Several options...you could have a gunsmith/machinist dovetail the heavy barrel and install Tech-Sights if you wanted to go that route. If you're set on getting glass, I'd recommend not 'overpowering' the rifle. Tailor the equipment to the mission; if its going to primarily be an LTR, you're kinda hurting because most scopes are set for a 50+yd parallax. I'd recommend going the T-S option.
As far as glass goes, the sky is the limit. I've had VERY good luck with Bushnell Banner scopes and have a 1.5-4.5x32 that has been on and off many rifles, and is excellent. They are typically in the $70-$130 range, depending on power & objective. If you're looking in the $200 range, Leupold comes to mind. Only thing is, the parallax is locked in at 60yds on all of their rimfire scopes except the VX-II 3-9x33 EFR, and it bumps you up to around 400 bones. Look around, but don't, under any circumstances, over scope it. You'll see too much of the target and your scores will go down on the AQT. The first time I fired my LTR w/ Tech-Sights, I scored a 227. I made Rifleman with a scoped 10/22 (VQ'd out...THM Tension barrel, scope mount, hammer, etc.) and a score of 219. At the RBC 8-0-8, I used the same rifle most of the week, but switched to my LTR to wring it out. I fussed the shot MUCH less and the scores went up. Dunno, but there's something to using aperture sights instead of a scope for our purposes.
Anyway, theres my 3 pennies.
MCKNBRD
Thanks for the advice. Honestly, I hadn't thought about getting the barrel dovetailed. I'm going to look into that.
The last of my parts conveniently arrived Saturday, while I was 5 hours away at the Allemans PA shoot. Thank you, Midwayusa.com for your excelent timing! $$-0
Before:
(http://bunkerseeds.com/e107_plugins/autogallery/Gallery/Firearms/Liberty%20Training%20Rifle/IMG_8118.jpg)
After:
(http://bunkerseeds.com/e107_plugins/autogallery/Gallery/Firearms/Liberty%20Training%20Rifle/IMG_8536.jpg)
The rifle on top is my 10/22 LTR with a "Ghillie Green" Hogue Stock (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=970738), Tech Sights (http://www.tech-sights.com/), stock extended magazine release, Blackhawk Lok-Down 1 1/4" Sling Swivels (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productnumber=684015) mounted into the stock Hogue sling swivels. The sling is a CJ Weapons M1A Web Sling (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productnumber=559962), OD, Nylon.
The rifle on the bottom (My Fiancee's LTR) is outfitted with the same parts but with a Black Hogue Stock (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=258395).
Quote from: GoJohnnyGo on April 20, 2009, 02:56:24 PM
For anybody interestd with my post on pg 40... I solved the problem I've been having with my mags not dropping by HEAVILY sanding the sidewalls of the stock with a dremel. It took a lot more work than it should of and I'm pretty disappointed with Hogue for shipping me a fairly expensive stock in this state. But, nonetheless things are working smoothly now and I got an excuse to tinker out of it...no harm no foul. :~
With had the same issue with aFajen. I hit the inside of the stock lightly with a file and they still didn't drop free. I took the file to the mags, again, lightly 10-12 strokes, and the mags now drop free and clear with ease.
Had sim issues with the Tapco Fusion stock, the tech sights and two Butler Creek mags - all had to be "modified" to function, but hey - what fun would it b if it all worked out of the box - where's the challenge in that?
No problems - only challenges and solutions - ahhh the life of the Rifleman! 8)
P.S. Read all 41 pages. Ya'll are an odd bunch. :D
Glad to be a member. Strongly considering trying to get off of work for the Van Etten shoot Memorial Day weekend.
Possibly some photos of the LTR's in action tonight.
I ran into a problem--I ordered a VQ hammer and bolt release and when I went to install the hammer--it said to use the factory hammer bushings on the new hammer--I guess Ruger changed their factory hammer and the bushings are part of the hammer. Any idea where I can get the bushings?
Quote from: gjwilliamsjr on April 24, 2009, 05:11:10 PM
I ran into a problem--I ordered a VQ hammer and bolt release and when I went to install the hammer--it said to use the factory hammer bushings on the new hammer--I guess Ruger changed their factory hammer and the bushings are part of the hammer. Any idea where I can get the bushings?
Contact VQ and they will take care of you.
Midway also sells the bushings. They're cheap but not always in stock.
G
thanks eagle and capt G--I will order them tonight--wish I knew I had to get them before I ordered the hammer--oh well--live and learn
Have you torn it down and looked at the hammer? I have a new 10/22 and it has the same old bushings as the 20 year old version. They pop right into the Volquartzen hammer. You're not saying bushings and thinking shims are you? Shims are definately after market items and not necessary. Hope this helps, JB
Quote from: Junior Birdman on April 24, 2009, 10:27:32 PM
Have you torn it down and looked at the hammer? I have a new 10/22 and it has the same old bushings as the 20 year old version. They pop right into the Volquartzen hammer. You're not saying bushings and thinking shims are you? Shims are definately after market items and not necessary. Hope this helps, JB
I've completely torn it down JB--Ruger has a new style hammer in some models--I found this
http://www.prestostore.com/cgi-bin/pro08.pl?ref=armedamerica@comcast.net&ct=65367&pd=302059
--more expensive than midway, but its in stock
Very interseting..... Looks like I got the new trigger group housing but the old style hammer. Thanks for the update! JB
Quote from: Junior Birdman on April 25, 2009, 11:39:45 PM
Very interseting..... Looks like I got the new trigger group housing but the old style hammer. Thanks for the update! JB
Same here.
Whooo Hoooo... Go 42
Dangit!
Quote from: Junior Birdman on April 25, 2009, 11:39:45 PM
Very interseting..... Looks like I got the new trigger group housing but the old style hammer. Thanks for the update! JB
no problem--I guess I was just "lucky" getting the "new" hammer....RATS!!
What can you tell us about the hammer? In other words, does it appear to need to be replaced? Or are you looking to lighten the trigger pull by using an atermarket hammer? Is it fairly tight in the housing? (Little side to side movement) I assume the hammer/ sear surface could still be polished to lighten the trigger.
I would guess the new hammer is a means of reducing production costs. One part instead of three.
Has anyone tried a DPMS A3 rear sight on a 10/22 using a weaver rail on a 10/22?
Someone had on rimfire, and had issues with 25 yard sighting because the front sight wasn't high enough - but they were using a heavy barrel with the front site channel cut into the barrel. - so it's not clear to me if that would be an issue on the standard 10/22 - or the techsite front sight.
I'd give it whirl but my AR is an A2.
It would be nice to have the thumb-adjust on the elevation and windage (It's become a chore finding and keeping track of the adjustment tool.)
Quote from: gunville on April 26, 2009, 04:30:03 PM
so it's not clear to me if that would be an issue on the standard 10/22 - or the techsite front sight.
The difference is huge. Neither a Tech-Sight nor a factory front sight post is anyhwere near high enough. It is simply not necessary to have so much adjustment on a LTR.
Quote from: fepowered on April 26, 2009, 05:11:56 PM
The difference is huge. Neither a Tech-Sight nor a factory front sight post is anyhwere near high enough. It is simply not necessary to have so much adjustment on a LTR.
Precisely why I recommend the TSR-100 on the basic LTR. Less expensive, simpler, and does the job just fine. If you like the adjustment wheel on the rear, pick up the DPMS 'Rapidex' windage knob. Extra bonus: it give you an extra notch of adjustment, as there are 10 detents instead of 5, as on the A1 rear sight.
MCKNBRD
Quote from: Junior Birdman on April 26, 2009, 12:46:19 PM
What can you tell us about the hammer? In other words, does it appear to need to be replaced? Or are you looking to lighten the trigger pull by using an atermarket hammer? Is it fairly tight in the housing? (Little side to side movement) I assume the hammer/ sear surface could still be polished to lighten the trigger.
I would guess the new hammer is a means of reducing production costs. One part instead of three.
I was replacing it to lighten the trigger--I don't have a scale, but I can hang the rifle by its trigger and it won't fire. (how much does a 10/22 carbine weigh?) There is no noticeable play (side to side) in the hammer at all. It looks as though you could polish it w/o any problems. I've never done it before, so I figured I'd replace it and then play with polishing later. I think you're right about production costs--It's the only reason I can think of for changing it. Here is a great article about the hammers and trigger housings http://ruger22.com/plastic.htm
http://tinyurl.com/triggerjob
Where can a DPMS 'Rapidex' windage knob be acquired since MidwayUSA is out of stock?
DPMS sells direct. Whether or not they have one in stock may be another question. The last parts I got from them took about 4 months.
Guy
When you DO get that Rapidex knob, I recommend engraving an arrow on it so you know which direction moves the sights left or right - something I just noticed was that lack and I will be fixing that very shortly.
I have read that the Uncle Mike's Swivel Stud 115 B set is recommended for wooden stocked 10/22s.
Is the same set recommended for synthetic stocked rifles or is there something better?
Thanks,
Rube
Are the tech sights designed for a specific length 10/22 barrel?
I have a shorter barrel - 18" - and I find I really have to turkey neck to get the front sight in view in the aperature (I don't see much difference between aperature settings either.)
And, the elevation clicks are not near the 1/8" at 20 yards specified (maybe I can borrow a lead slead and figure exactly what they are but I'm guessing 1/3".)
If I compare to my AR, (22" barrel) I can see the front sight easily - not sure if it's because of the larger aperature or the greater lenght of the barrel.
I'm wondering how it is for you guys with the wally world 22" 10/22?
Gunville makes an excellent mathmatical point. Different length between front and rear sight will make for a different adjustment per click at any fixed target distance. However I do not know if the difference is large enough to be an issue on a 16" carbine vs an 18" T or a 22" Wallyworld.
I did a quick calculation (and like most quick calculations it's probably wrong) but from an 18" to 22", sight at same height, a 1/8" click on the 18" should only be about 10% higher - very small.
But on the sight picture end - I think the extra 6" makes the front sight small enough to fit in the aperature considerably further back on the stock.
A couple of beers and I'll tackle that math. $$-0
(Were did I put my TI55?)
I'll go out on a limb, without a calculator, just from logic. [I'm sure some one will let me know if my logic is faulty! :-[ ] If you change from 22 to 18, it's about a 20% change, ballpark. So, would not the results downrange be 5 clicks on the 22inch yielding about the same change as 4 clicks on the 18inch?
To quote Buzzworth; "Squares are your friend!" They'll tell the story. :)
Factory 10/22s were/are equipped with one of four barrel lengths: 16.5", 18.5", 20" or 22". 90+% of the 10/22s that left the factory are 'Carbines' (model 10/22 RB) and have the 18.5" barrel. One of my ongoing goals is to get a barrel of each length and equip it with Tech-Sights and see EXACTLY what the IMC calibrations are for each one. As well as what the IMC is for an A2 (4 detents, instead of 5) front sight post equipped Tech Sight.
If anyone has a WWS 10/22 (the only one I know of that has the 22" barrel) or 10/22 CRR (the youth model with the 16.5" barrel) that they're rebarreling, I'd love to borrow it for a couple of weeks and see what the adjustments are...
MCKNBRD
I'll save you the trouble on the 22" bbl: For the 200's it's .8 MOA per click.
and BD sets up JB....
I'm calculating 0.114" difference (lower) at 100yd for a 22" barrel - assuming the 5/8" is correct for the TS at 100yds. Noise for our purpose, especially at 82ft.
Dangit! !@#) (But thanks anyway, BD!)
Anyway.......Does it really matter? At Appleseed we train folks to use their rifles to it's fullest potential, and that requires some IMC work. You can give a man a fish, (Tell him that each click will move the poi "X" amount), or you can teach a man to fish, (Tell him to try 1:1 and see what happens).
Unless the guy is already shooting REALLY well, around our desired 4 moa, I don't think it'll make any difference to them initially. They can figure it out on their own as their abilities inprove. I bet you that at that stage the guy isn't even calling the shots, so..........
When the fellow with the M-4gery, with the rails, collapsible stock, bipod, EOTech, back up irons, cell phone charger, iPod, quad speakers, mix and match upper and lower asks you what each click of the rear sight does you just shrug and say "Try 1 moa per click and see what happens". Then he can take the data observed from that movement and apply it to the next one. So his group only moves half the distance he wanted it to? He knows he has 1/2 moa sights, right? Group moves twice as far as intended? He must have 2 moa sights. And he LEARNED something he can pass on to others!
This ain't rocket science and such information, while nice to have, isn't really necessary on the line at an Appleseed.
Teach them the concept of IMC, make sure they understand it well, and turn them loose to learn to fish. I'm just sayin.........
And for the record, I have yet to see a Tech-Sight(ed) rifle have the same poi shift per click that is stated in the instructions. Has anyone else? So you might want to use the real world methods described above on the line.
No, it doesn't matter - I'm not concerned about .114" at 100yd or .57" at 500 yd.
The answer is still good to know, but sometimes there is more learning in the exercise than in the answer.
I'm having a problem with blurriness and floaters in the rear ghost ring of my Tech-sights. The fuzzines obscures the target and front post and is becoming frustrating. Moving my head forward or back does not correct this problem. Anyone else experience this?
Quote from: notarex on May 16, 2009, 03:25:00 PM
I'm having a problem with blurriness and floaters in the rear ghost ring of my Tech-sights. The fuzzines obscures the target and front post and is becoming frustrating. Moving my head forward or back does not correct this problem. Anyone else experience this?
Have you contacted Tech-Sights? Mine work well , better than my eyes at least.
Fuzzy rear sight?
I've heard of some that can't focus on the Front sight resort to a pair of readers (but I can't understand how they can put together a sight picture and a call with readers.)
maybe time for a visit to the eye doctor?
I've always had good experiences with Tech Sights. I agree with gunville go to the optomatrist. ;D ;D
-ERS
With peep sights the opening has to be the right size or the front sight will be blurred. Problem is everyone eyes are different and larger opening in the front decreases accuracy. Check with Tech-Sights and ask them about it, proper sight picture is crucial. If you don't have any problems reading you shouldn't have to get your eyes checked but do it anyway for jic.
Regarding a fuzzy-appearing rear aperture sight: perhaps it's just my bad eyes, but I don't think the aperture will ever be in focus if you're focusing on the front sight or target. :o
When I align the sights, I'm usually looking mostly at the front sight, with the rear looking like a fuzzy donut, then when I bring the sights onto target, the target is clear and both sights are fuzzy. Finally, shifting focus to the front sight (with my eye and my mind...right?) the rear sight is still fuzzy.
Does anyone out there really see a crystal clear rear sight during any of these phases? (If so, I'm jealous!)
If they do, and still retain front sight focus; I want their eyes!
The rear sight should be blurry, if you are focusing on the front sight. (In fact, the rear sight is so close to your eye, most people couldn't even focus on it if they tried.)
Your eye can only focus on one thing at a time, so blurry rear sight, blurry target, crisp clear front sight- is perfect.
Now, the extent of the blur on the target can become an issue, but as long as you can still focus on the front sight, and place it in the center of the blur, you'll be fine.
The rear sight really isn't as important as it may seem. This is the reason for 'turkey-necking' or consistant cheek-weld. So you can pretty-much forget about that rear sight.
Line up the sights, place the sights on the target and focus on that front sight.
Skip the focusing on the target, it may cause you to draw your focus off the front sight.
The rear sight is a "ghost" ring for a reason and should be blurry, I agree. The problem is I'm seeing fuzzy lines and dots inside the ring, and therefore obscuring the front post and target...
Even with shooting glasses I have a problem with focus, front sight or rear, does not matter.
Someone posted a link to EYEPAL. I don't work for them or anything like that. It WORKS.
It's a piece of black cling film with a pin hole aperture that sticks to your prescription or shooting glasses.
NO BULL, when I use it I can clearly see the front sight AND the rear. The rear sight, instead of being a large blurred ghost ring that I have to guess at where the front sight should be, becomes a clear ring that frames the front sight. The 'ears' on the Tech Sight front sight just fit inside it.
I went to the local range last Wednesday and tried it out. Even with my 58 year old eyes, with astigmatism and Diabetes, I was tearing the centers out of 1" squares ar 25 yards.
Even the target comes into focus.
If you are having problems with focus you may want to check it out.
HTH
Douglas
Quote from: notarex on May 18, 2009, 08:06:43 AM
The rear sight is a "ghost" ring for a reason and should be blurry, I agree. The problem is I'm seeing fuzzy lines and dots inside the ring, and therefore obscuring the front post and target...
You can do a test to find out if it's a problem with the sight or a problem with your eye. Get out your box of drills and find one that just fits through the hole in the rear sight. Be careful not to damage it. Then using that same drill, drill a hole in any small piece of thin metal, a coin might work. Now, holding your newly drilled aperture at the same distance as your rear sight would be, see if you get the same effect that you do when you look through the Tech Sights. Also you might want to try smaller apertures with brighter light sources and see if the effect increases.
Quote from: wikipedia link= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floater
The brightness of the daytime sky also causes the eyes' pupils to contract, reducing the aperture, which makes floaters less blurry and easier to see.
It's possible that the small aperture of the Tech Sight is having the same effect as a pinhole camera, bringing into focus things you would not normally see, like floaters inside your eye. Everybody has them to some degree, and most of the time they are totally harmless, but if you have enough to obscure your vision when looking through a small aperture it may be time to see a professional about it.
QuoteIt's possible that the small aperture of the Tech Sight is having the same effect as a pinhole camera, bringing into focus things you would not normally see, like floaters inside your eye. Everybody has them to some degree, and most of the time they are totally harmless, but if you have enough to obscure your vision when looking through a small aperture it may be time to see a professional about it.
I've got what I consider bad floaters, and I find it very aggravating that there really isn't a proven technique that can help.
Quote from: douglas34474 on May 18, 2009, 11:20:46 AM
Even with shooting glasses I have a problem with focus, front sight or rear, does not matter.
Someone posted a link to EYEPAL. I don't work for them or anything like that. It WORKS.
It's a piece of black cling film with a pin hole aperture that sticks to your prescription or shooting glasses.
NO BULL, when I use it I can clearly see the front sight AND the rear. The rear sight, instead of being a large blurred ghost ring that I have to guess at where the front sight should be, becomes a clear ring that frames the front sight. The 'ears' on the Tech Sight front sight just fit inside it.
I went to the local range last Wednesday and tried it out. Even with my 58 year old eyes, with astigmatism and Diabetes, I was tearing the centers out of 1" squares ar 25 yards.
Even the target comes into focus.
If you are having problems with focus you may want to check it out.
HTH
Douglas
THanks this looks great going to order a rifle set soon as possible.
I ordered the combo pack; one rifle and one pistol.
My performance with the 1911A1 also improved. O0
HTH
Douglas
Quote from: notarex on May 16, 2009, 03:25:00 PM
I'm having a problem with blurriness and floaters in the rear ghost ring of my Tech-sights. The fuzzines obscures the target and front post and is becoming frustrating. Moving my head forward or back does not correct this problem. Anyone else experience this?
Notarex, I think your problem has been dealt with in another set of posts. Check out my response to it at this location: Road to Rifleman>Skill Sets of Shooting>Ever wonder what that little dark spot in the rear sight is?
Thanks dond- I passed my rifle around at the last Appleseed I was at and no one else saw that black dot or the "webs", must be my eyes- I wear corrective lenses 8). It's frustrating to the point that I'm thinking of switching to a 2X scout scope...
Perhaps everyone else ought to get corrective lenses. :D I've got a scout scope on my M1A Scout. It's nice. ;)
I think somewhere in here was burried that you can use an A2 rear apperature on a tech-sight.
Is the front sight also A2 compatible?
I'm picking up an NM front sight (I can't stand that square thing) for my AR15, and was thinking of getting a second for my 10/22 tech-sights.
I bought the eyepals as mentioned earlier in this post, they do work quite well.
the shipping was fast, and buying them online was easy. I have scaring of the cornea and while they do not make my vision perfect thay are a improvement over my glasses.
now I just need to get out to the range and try them out.
Quote from: gunville on May 28, 2009, 11:23:14 PM
I think somewhere in here was burried that you can use an A2 rear apperature on a tech-sight.
Is the front sight also A2 compatible?
I'm picking up an NM front sight (I can't stand that square thing) for my AR15, and was thinking of getting a second for my 10/22 tech-sights.
Yep. Any AR sight (A1 or A2) will work on the T-S. Just make sure you have the proper sight adjustment tool!
Byrdman
Unforch, nothing makes "floaters" and "sinkers" and other optic debris go away.
those are actually the leftover cell membranes of red blood cells and other microscopic structures that literally are afloat in your eyeball fluid...old injuries and traumas that you experienced in your wild, reckless and, dare I say, checkered past @&) coming back to haunt you....as they randomly travel around, trapped inside your eyeball, at any given moment a few dozen are going to be right there where they'll interfere with the lens-focus image on your retina....and there are a few thousand others that are NOT right there in that zone, but, they contribute to an overall level of fuzziness that no pair of glasses can quite fix.
I guess if you could have your eyefluid drained and replaced, like motor oil, or transmission fluid, you could get rid of floaters.
Unfortunately, Jiffy Lube won't change peeper-fluid. :o
Has anyone rigged up a homemade eyepal?
I had no luck with a piece of paper - I punched a hole, but I think it was too large with rough edges - it didn't work - I had fuzzy edges that were more of a distraction, plus I was using a fairly crumby pair of shooting glasses at the time. (plus I wear contacts - but they can't correct everything.)
I want a proof of concept before I plunk down $25 for cling-on sticker...
It works the principle is of reducing you aperture reduces errors in optics. Common use in telescopes and other optical devices but what puzzles me is why I didn't think of it. I beleive the opening has to be 7mm and very precise to work correctly but I using an old brain to recall this.
I've noticed something similar (not with an aperature sight or something on my glasses). Sitting in my recliner I have to wear glasses to read the time on the cable TV box or VCR. One day I noticed, while drinking a cup of coffee and looking over the top edge of the cup, that the numbers were clear and easily readable. Drop the cup, the numbers blurred, raise the cup (which obscured the majority of my field of view) and the numbers were nice a clear again. There is a scientific explanation for why blocking most of your field of view "sharpens" up your blurry vision but it's something I read and the details didn't matter enough to me to stick with me.
But it works.
Quote from: gunville on June 04, 2009, 03:26:07 AM
Has anyone rigged up a homemade eyepal?
I had no luck with a piece of paper - I punched a hole, but I think it was too large with rough edges - it didn't work - I had fuzzy edges that were more of a distraction, plus I was using a fairly crumby pair of shooting glasses at the time. (plus I wear contacts - but they can't correct everything.)
I want a proof of concept before I plunk down $25 for cling-on sticker...
instead of a piece of paper, use a piece of black garbage-bag plastic, and attach it with electrical tape....for really tidy holepunching, sandwich the plastic between 2 pieces of cardboard, in order to reduce the tendency of hole-edge distortion.
use whatever amount of e-tape you need, to obscure as much, or as little of your glasses-lens as you need. at the end of the day, a small amount of gun oil, followed by alcohol (EXTERNALLY!!!!) will remove any pesky adhesive from your glasses....I suppose you COULD use rubber-bands, as well, thereby avoiding the pesky-adhesive issue entirely, but, I'd expect wiggling in wind.
If you're REALLY, REALLY crafty/handy, you could rig up a pressing jig that will allow you to drill thru a sandwich of wood/cardboard/plastic/cardboard/wood....using that, you could make a pile of'em with different-sized, really neatly cut apertures, and then you can figure out which one's best for you.
you can buy a LOT of garbage bags and electrical tape for $25
What about a cheap pair of flip up sunglasses? Remove one lens, paint the other black and drill a hole through it.
?
DAve
Quote from: Old Dog on June 07, 2009, 09:02:20 AM
I've noticed something similar (not with an aperature sight or something on my glasses). Sitting in my recliner I have to wear glasses to read the time on the cable TV box or VCR. One day I noticed, while drinking a cup of coffee and looking over the top edge of the cup, that the numbers were clear and easily readable. Drop the cup, the numbers blurred, raise the cup (which obscured the majority of my field of view) and the numbers were nice a clear again. There is a scientific explanation for why blocking most of your field of view "sharpens" up your blurry vision but it's something I read and the details didn't matter enough to me to stick with me.
But it works.
The scientific name is "edge refraction." As light passes by an edge, it is curved or refracted, changing the focal point of an object beyond that edge. In WWII, my dad, who wears glasses, used it to
almost be accepted into Naval Officer Candidate School. On the eye exam, you were required to cover one eye with a card and read the chart with the other one. He simply slid the edge of the card a little further past the bridge of his nose so that the eye being tested could look past the edge and use the refraction to bring the chart into focus. He did the same for the opposite eye. After passing several physicals, when he arrived at OCS, they administered one more eye test. The old chief giving the test said, "Get that card over on the other side of your nose!" Thus ended my dad's shot at OCS. :D
Bob
I'm not sure what this has to do with a 10/22, but it IS pushing the post count ever closer to the magic 20 required! O0 Come on 44!!!
I like the flip-up sunglasses idea,
I'll try the garbage bag idea to figure out the hole size.
7mm? all I have are SAE bits, but I'll try starting with 1/4", and get my LTR to the range to evalute (...trying to unhijack the thread.)
Junior - is this thread your only hobby?
Experimenting with paper on the outside of my prescription glasses showed the best size, for me, was a lot smaller then 1/4". In line with 1/32" to 1/16". A hole .032 thou gave me a clear sight picture on my LTR and my SMLE, the SMLE having a tangent sight and the LTR a Williams peep. (I said LTR twice, no three times).
I think I may try this when I dry fire my LTR tonight (FOUR times).
DAve
Dangit! Always a bridesmaid......
I wouldn't call it a hobby. Vice, maybe. But not hobby. #)
Quote from: Junior Birdman on June 12, 2009, 09:39:48 PM
Dangit! Always a bridesmaid......
I wouldn't call it a hobby. Vice, maybe. But not hobby. #)
Gee... and I set you up so nicely!!!
Better be careful, the LTR thread in Northeast shooters forum is already 38 pages! They're catching up.
Quote from: yellowhousejake on June 12, 2009, 06:08:20 PM
Experimenting with paper on the outside of my prescription glasses showed the best size, for me, was a lot smaller then 1/4". In line with 1/32" to 1/16". A hole .032 thou gave me a clear sight picture on my LTR and my SMLE, the SMLE having a tangent sight and the LTR a Williams peep. (I said LTR twice, no three times).
I think I may try this when I dry fire my LTR tonight (FOUR times).
DAve
Bingo, get a cheap cling sticker, the kind for your car window that use no adhesive, I used my son's old parking sticker. Cut a piece the size of a nickle out and put a small hole through it (I used a hot, not red hot, .0032 wire). Simply press onto your eyeglasses and instant 20/20 vision. The small nickle size doesn't adversely affect general use of the glasses as it will be in the top corner of the lens.
I am 20/200 in both eyes and need bifocals. When I look down my SMLE I can see everything between the charger bridge and the target clearly. This will certainly need some experimentation, very promising.
DAve
I have an update for the paint peeling issue. Ruger is no longer painting the inside top of the receivers so there is nothing to peel. I also verified that WalMart is no longer selling ANY 10/22s.
Quote from: yellowhousejake on June 16, 2009, 07:24:56 PM
Quote from: yellowhousejake on June 12, 2009, 06:08:20 PM
Experimenting with paper on the outside of my prescription glasses showed the best size, for me, was a lot smaller then 1/4". In line with 1/32" to 1/16". A hole .032 thou gave me a clear sight picture on my LTR and my SMLE, the SMLE having a tangent sight and the LTR a Williams peep. (I said LTR twice, no three times).
I think I may try this when I dry fire my LTR tonight (FOUR times).
DAve
Bingo, get a cheap cling sticker, the kind for your car window that use no adhesive, I used my son's old parking sticker. Cut a piece the size of a nickle out and put a small hole through it (I used a hot, not red hot, .0032 wire). Simply press onto your eyeglasses and instant 20/20 vision. The small nickle size doesn't adversely affect general use of the glasses as it will be in the top corner of the lens.
I am 20/200 in both eyes and need bifocals. When I look down my SMLE I can see everything between the charger bridge and the target clearly. This will certainly need some experimentation, very promising.
DAve
Good deal going to try this with some of those sun glasses cling strips thats always on them when you buy them, what gauge is that wire or what did you use for it and I will give it a try on my Ruger, AK, and Mosin to get a good sample group, cant use my prime LTR since the marlin has a scope on it now.
Quote from: Rhodes on June 23, 2009, 04:03:03 AM
Quote from: yellowhousejake on June 16, 2009, 07:24:56 PM
Bingo, get a cheap cling sticker, the kind for your car window that use no adhesive, I used my son's old parking sticker. Cut a piece the size of a nickle out and put a small hole through it (I used a hot, not red hot, .0032 wire). Simply press onto your eyeglasses and instant 20/20 vision. The small nickle size doesn't adversely affect general use of the glasses as it will be in the top corner of the lens.
I am 20/200 in both eyes and need bifocals. When I look down my SMLE I can see everything between the charger bridge and the target clearly. This will certainly need some experimentation, very promising.
DAve
Good deal going to try this with some of those sun glasses cling strips thats always on them when you buy them, what gauge is that wire or what did you use for it and I will give it a try on my Ruger, AK, and Mosin to get a good sample group, cant use my prime LTR since the marlin has a scope on it now.
I would think it depends on your eyes, but I found so far that .050 wire heated just warm enough to melt a hole through the cling sticker worked best. I will be trying out the sticker this weekend at the Cloverdale Indiana Appleseed.
DAve
And this has what, exactly, to do with the Liberty Training Rifle? &)
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a29/canthsrider/smilies/StayOnTarget.jpg)
Well, if you're going to apply THAT standard........ ;D
Quote from: dwarven1 on June 24, 2009, 02:49:14 PM
And this has what, exactly, to do with the Liberty Training Rifle? &)
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a29/canthsrider/smilies/StayOnTarget.jpg)
(http://www.carrieisgett.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/pancake-bunny.jpg)
(http://www.carrieisgett.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/pancake-bunny.jpg)
The bunny is my hero.
Quote from: dwarven1 on June 24, 2009, 02:49:14 PM
And this has what, exactly, to do with the Liberty Training Rifle? &)
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a29/canthsrider/smilies/StayOnTarget.jpg)
People who both can't see, and can't use "The Force" can't use their LTRs as well as they should. The optical tangent disguised as a hijack is just one more aspect of the many rules of gunfighting. "Always cheat. Always win" :~ ......even if your opponent is a piece of paper stapled to plywood 25m away. :D
It's the LTP - Liberty Training Patch.
And doubles to give Junior Birdman a shot at flipping 45.
But to maintain some semblance of forum discipline, let me ask:
I've seen several LTR's with the front barrel band removed. Has anyone actually seen this help?
Also, is removing the barrel band sufficient to float the barrel on an LTR, or does it require some inlet work?
Although I haven't seen that, and therefore could put the pancake bunny picture here, it would seem intuitive that action-bedding (the gunsmith kind, not the R-rated kind) would be necessary....and then, of course verify "float" with a piece of paper.....dollars are getting harder to obtain
Quote from: gunville on June 24, 2009, 11:15:03 PM
It's the LTP - Liberty Training Patch.
And doubles to give Junior Birdman a shot at flipping 45.
But to maintain some semblance of forum discipline, let me ask:
I've seen several LTR's with the front barrel band removed. Has anyone actually seen this help?
Also, is removing the barrel band sufficient to float the barrel on an LTR, or does it require some inlet work?
More work required but not much just to float the barrel. Some good instructions on the matter just google the subject sure its still there. Bedding is fairly easy also as long as you are careful about greasing that barrel first.
It is not necessary to float the 10/22 barrel and it is actually not desirable at all for the factory standard barrel rifles. 10/22 barrels, especially the longer versions can sag if the action is bedded and the barrel not supported. What the barrel band sometimes does do is put funky pressure on the barrel. Just the removal of the band without any additional stock relief can improve groups. Hogue and Butler Creek stocks are not a free float design including the bull barrel versions. Free float barrels are not necessary to get 1-2MOA out of your 10/22 LTR.
All it takes to make Rifleman is 4MOA. Anyone who can shoot 2MOA with their LTR and center these 2MOA groups on the redcoats looks like a rock star..... 8)
Quote from: fepowered on June 25, 2009, 08:24:06 AM
...
Free float barrels are not necessary to get 1-2MOA out of your 10/22 LTR.
All it takes to make Rifleman is 4MOA. Anyone who can shoot 2MOA with their LTR and center these 2MOA groups on the redcoats looks like a rock star..... 8)
I have to agree with this. Take the money that you would have spent on bedding compound and buy a brick of 22LR. The results may be even better. I recently took my 1974 Deluxe Carbin out of its walnut stock and put it into one of the new compact stocks. Having a stock that fits my short arms is really nice. One thing I noticed about the new stock was that it appears that the action screwgoes through a pillar as opposed to using a countersunk washer bearing on the wood.
This was a mod that I had considered when I was having issues with the action screw working loose during a day of shooting. I solved that problem on the old stock with some purple locktite (the same as recommended by tech sights). It's not easy to find but you can get it from Grainger if there is one in your area.
The problem with 10/22 factory barrels are they can be inconsistent. Some factory barrels are very good some are just better off in the trash most are in between. If yours is grouping well leave it be if you like, mine is very good so I left it stock. Replace the hammer before doing anything with the barrel you may be very surprised.
If money is an issue dont throw any away just to get a slight improvement. If money isn't an issue have fun. Personally I like to work on the guns its just my thing since I cant shoot like I used to be able having to do everything from the standing position. Consequently I may do some things to compensate others find unnessecary since I really want that patch. Sometimes it backfires and that's ok everything can fixed and I find it enjoyable anyway.
Make yourself happy and shoot well friend.
Yup, 10/22's tend to not follow solid rules.
Best 2 10/22's I've seen, group wise were both 10/22 Internationals, with the better one being the one Blueskys owns. That thing is downright legendary in the Northeast, made more Riflemen than ANY other rifle we've seen. I swear that thing is AWESOME. It currently wears a 2-7X Leupold, and made it's reputation wearing a 4X Simmons (and, if anything shoots as well or better with the 2-7).
If you know what they are, you see where freefloating goes out of the conversation. If you don't know, they're a 10/22 in a Mannlicher (full length) stype stock. Both of these are stainless rifles and the stocks laminated (and are almost identical, the other being owned by TheBlonde).
Quote from: gunville on June 24, 2009, 11:15:03 PM
It's the LTP - Liberty Training Patch.
And doubles to give Junior Birdman a shot at flipping 45.
But to maintain some semblance of forum discipline, let me ask:
I've seen several LTR's with the front barrel band removed. Has anyone actually seen this help?
Also, is removing the barrel band sufficient to float the barrel on an LTR, or does it require some inlet work?
YES!
Part of the problem was that the sling was attached to the band. Any increase in pressure on the sling would twist the band and pull the barrel right. In prone it was pulling the shot 3moa. That would have been OK if all the positions resulted in the same sling tension but I could never achieve that.
I moved the sling to the stock and that helped a lot but it was still sensitive to sling pressure. Once I pulled the band off the rifle became much more tolerant of varying sling pressure.
I had no interest in floating the barrel, there is still contact between the stock and the barrel for several inches in front of the receiver, I just wanted to get a little breathing room between the fore end of the stock and the barrel.
When you attached the sling to the stock, did you use the machine screw stud and nut to attach the front stud, or did you use the stud with wood screw?
Quote from: gjwilliamsjr on June 26, 2009, 02:10:42 AM
When you attached the sling to the stock, did you use the machine screw stud and nut to attach the front stud, or did you use the stud with wood screw?
You'll want the 1 1/4 loops, Set No. 1311-3 (1 1/4"), with the screw set as shown here (http://www.uncle-mikes.com/products/boltaction_woodscrews.html)
Thank you V --somewhere on the forums I read that people were using the machine screw front stud and putting epoxy on the nut. I assumed you would also have to counter sink the nut into the stock as well, and that seemed like alot of unnecessary work when the wood screw stud is available. Also, its only $9.49 at Midway vs $11.95 at Uncle Mikes http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productnumber=190783
Quote from: gjwilliamsjr on June 26, 2009, 10:18:45 PM
Thank you V --somewhere on the forums I read that people were using the machine screw front stud and putting epoxy on the nut. I assumed you would also have to counter sink the nut into the stock as well, and that seemed like alot of unnecessary work when the wood screw stud is available. Also, its only $9.49 at Midway vs $11.95 at Uncle Mikes http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productnumber=190783
As V posted I used the stud with the wood screws because there was plenty of meat to set the wood screw in.
On the butt end I did counter sink the hole a bit to give the stud a better seat on a flat surface but the fore end was fine as it was.
Quote from: BaldDragn on June 25, 2009, 06:14:07 PM
...
I had no interest in floating the barrel, there is still contact between the stock and the barrel for several inches in front of the receiver, I just wanted to get a little breathing room between the fore end of the stock and the barrel.
To address something here...If you want a 'poor mans bedding job'...look where the receiver sits at the back of the stock, about where the bolt stop pin is. Take an old playing card and cut it to fit between the stock and action; glue it to the stock and insert the action to hold it in place. Let dry.
The other point is under the barrel band. I took a strip of the same card material, cut it a little wider than the barrel band, and glued it in the channel for the barrel. Once again, inserted the action and tightened it down (with barrel band on it) and let dry.
Free-floating isn't the only way to make these things sing. Just like your cheek weld, consistent pressure at given points increases repeatability. Increased
repeatability makes for a more accurate shooting stick, which leads to more accuracy potential for shooters. It also increases confidence and reduces excuses; 2 things that we often need on the firing line at Appleseeds.
Byrdman
MCKNBRD,
You're saying put the card on the inside of the stock near the reciever, do you mean on both sides or the rear?
I'd like to give this a try.
I notice an occasional "looseness" in the trigger housing and don't find the action screw or any of the pins at all loose.
The little uncle mike's stuff might work fine on a 10/22 (or any 22 used at Appleseeds or hunting). You'll notice not too many GI rifles used a wood screw in the forend to attach the front sling swivel. It's not the stoutest way to do that.
How many people complain about the old GI rifles "pulling off" when you slung up? Stout wood, stout metal, clearance between the barrel and stock out there where the sling attaches.
Removing the barrel band is easy. If your groups are good with it on then leave it alone. If not, remove it and give it a try. If the groups improve, leave it off.
Do your groups open up as the barrel warms up? The barrel is probably touching the wood in the fore end of the stock. You can find out where by looping a credit card or other piece of paper around the barrel in front of the fore end and sliding it back towards the receiver to see how far back it goes before it stops (indicating little to no clearance between the barrel and stock/forend). If it touches on the right side of the channel in the forend chaces are your groups open up to the left as the barrel warms up, touching on the left moves groups to the right. Touching on the bottom, if well centered may not affect the groups as much but it could. Removing the wood in the barrel channel where contact is made may result in other problems (the whole thing might get sloppy in the stock - I've seen it happen, once).
I've not seen (in my limited experience of a few rifles) any decrease in performance from having a barrel not touching the wood in the stock channel. It seems to be okay if the barrel in the area of the chamber (first inch or two of the barrel) makes contact with the wood. If I have to add bedding compound to one to make it shoot better (never done it on a .22 but have on centerfires) I put bedding compound in that area as well at the receiver area.
If the trigger assembly is loose in the receiver I think someone (way back in this thread) recommended using a center punch to "swell" the ends of the plastic pins to "tighten" things up there.
There's no reason to remove the receiver/barrel/trigger assembly from the stock every time you clean it. It just takes more time and creates wear and tear issues.
Have to agree with wood screw swivils on the front they do have a bit of give and every time they are stressed seem to wallow. I always just counter sink a nut in the channel and use those.
As far as Garands never having pull off from sling tension well those are pretty substantial stocks on those and not just getting that on a 22. Ive found using less tension works better than getting that sling piano wire tight like you would on a Garand or Mosin. Maybe Im wrong but it seems the minimum tension to hold the rifle steadier just produces better results.
Sorry to be asking this here, as I'm sure it's posted somewhere, but I haven't been able to find it.
1. I have a 10/22 ready for modifications. I've read about a "group buy" from Grin reaper and EEL posted somewhere else that he's got some tech sites for sale. I need tech sites; I'd be happy to get a good deal. Where?
2. There are some other things I'd like to get, and if someone has more than just the tech sites, it might save shipping etc. to order from that person. (extended magazine release and something better for the stock end than the slick piece of plastic which is there now (and invariably slips on my shirt during trigger pull---maybe I can fix that with a piece of bicycle innertube---but there may be something commercial that will work/look better), anything else?)
Quote from: franklinfarmer on June 30, 2009, 11:13:00 PM
I need tech sites; I'd be happy to get a good deal. Where?
http://texasguntrader.com/index.php?a=2&b=23769
He has 2 sets at $35.
Quote from: gunville on June 29, 2009, 05:50:11 PM
MCKNBRD,
You're saying put the card on the inside of the stock near the reciever, do you mean on both sides or the rear?
I'd like to give this a try.
I notice an occasional "looseness" in the trigger housing and don't find the action screw or any of the pins at all loose.
I put them on both sides; think of them as extra support for the bolt stop pin, and you'll have an idea where they go. Depending on your stock/receiver tolerances, you may have to experiment with fitment and thickness of the card/shim material.
email me at mckngbrd_at_carolina.rr.com and I'll see if I can grab a pic or two for you. Working weird hours this week, so it may be a few days, but I'll get it to you.
Byrdman
time to pay the piper--here is the rundown of my LTR--
10/22..................................................$199.00 Dicks Sporting Goods
VQ bolt release and target hammer...........$44.99 Midway
Bell/Carlson extended mag release............$4.49 Midway
Sling...................................................$7.10 Numrich
Sling Hook............................................$1.25 Numrich
Sling Swivel set.....................................$9.49 Midway
3-9x40 redhead scope............................$49.99 Basspro
scope rings...........................................$10.99 Basspro
3 extra mags (11.49 each)......................$34.47 Midway
2 dual clip holders (4.95 each).................$9.90 E&L Mfg
Bolt Buffer............................................$6.99 Cheap Gun Parts
Grand Total .........................................$378.66 (plus either tax or shipping)
Did I miss anything?
I still have some assembly to do, but I think I have everything I need. I still may go with the Tech sights, but every time I go to the range and look at the simulated 400 yard target I convince myself that I need the scope, and then I get home and my ego says I should be able to use the iron sights. I guess my mind doesn't want to accept that I'm not 20 years old anymore. Any advice on the LTR or the scope/sight controversy would be greatly appreciated.--Thanks--Gary
The criticals for a 10/22 are (1) blot release - can be done with a dremel on the factory piece; (2) sling & swivel set, (3) extra (even borrowed) mags, and (4) improved sights (TS being the obvious) (not necessarily in the order - I would put them 4, 2, 3, 1)
That combination is your basic LTR - that has made many a rifleman.
The rest is you spending money as you see fit, but not necessary.
- The extended mag release is really only needed on "old" 10/22's - current models have a mag release.
- The bolt buffer is pretty much a waste; it takes some "clang" out of the recoil, but I doubt if anyone ever had a damaged bolt from the factory bolt stop.
- The hammer - granted a 3# trigger makes it easier, but I would guess most riflemen are made on stock ruger trigger pull.
- clip holders? don't need no stinkin clip holders
I think the scope vs iron is discussed ad nausea elsewhere, but the basic is to shoot iron if at all possible, especially since you are focusing on the front sight - you just keep the front sight on the blur. some day's you'll see them better than others.
Good run down.
+1 on that mod of the factory bolt release, stock ones always seem to be a problem at the worst moment.
Will add that for 25m shooting I get better groups from subsonic ammo, not a huge help but it could make the difference between qualifying and not and the price is now about the same as mini-mags.
Also if you are going to shoot stingers or other Hyper-velocity ammo for varmints and such the buffer does help some. I even noticed improvement with a muzzle brake using that stuff. Opossums hate head shots with those. I don't recommend them for AQT of course.
Aging eyesight benefits from an inexpensive 2x or 3x scope that holds zero well. I tryed the Eye Pal but it requires a very high light environment , cloudy days are a pain using those.
Last be sure your magazines get cleaned periodically, the factory ten rounders work best. To help with mag changes that idea of epoxy a brass knob on the bottom works nicely. Fun rifle for the tinkers out there.
Thanks gunville--the bolt buffer was to protect the scope, not the bolt. I didn't realize when I got the bolt release how easy it is to do it yourself (not to mention a reason to get a new tool as I don't have a dremel) The clip holders were because my factory mag did not drop free, it had to be pulled out. The holders gave me more to grab onto. After reading 45 pages of this thread, I fixed the problem with just a few swipes of sandpaper. The lesson I learned is that there is ALOT of info here about building an LTR, and I could have saved some $$ by reading the entire thread before I started the build. I guess I got really excited about appleseed and wanted to start practicing to become a rifleman immediately.
Rhodes--Thanks for the tips--I'll have to let my brother know about the muzzle brake combined with hyper velocity ammo--he has quite a woodchuck problem. He is attending his 1st appleseed next week in NY (it kinda sucks, I tell him about appleseed, and he gets to go before I do) Oh well--more practice for me :)
Bolt buffers aren't to protect the bolt, but the receiver. After a few zillion rounds the holes begin to enlongate, (Aluminum being the softer of the two metals), and the pins start to fall out. (Not a problem unless you're loaning the thing out a lot, and I mean a LOT)
I believe the new plastic trigger group housings will fix that problem since the housing absorbs a lot of the impact and springs back where the aluminum would just get hammered and deformed. (Just my theory, but so far it seems that the pins in the plastic housings are remaining tight long after the pins in the aluminum housings get loose)
Just a note for you who are finding those worn out, stubborn Ruger bolt releases to be a pain when instructing on the line: Keep a credit card like device handy, (I prefer the plastic hotel door keys, AKA "Magic NPOA cards"), and when you run into "one of those" that refuses to release, just insert the edge of the card between the tip of the release and the trigger housing to the rear of it and push up. It hasn't failed me yet.
Looks like you got yourself a great LTR going there. It should make a lot of Riflemen!
I'm generally suspect of the usefulness of bolt buffers - particularly the ones for SKS' and AK's - there are millions of these rifles, especially AK's, running reliably in the world. If there was a problem we would have all heard about them?
I do have one in my 10/22, but I was driven by noise reduction than a driving need to protect my reciever. (I had wanted to use it with CB's for low-noise pest control but never did find CB's in .22LR.)
I've just never seen a reciever damaged from lack of a bolt buffer. But I'll defer to Junior Birdman and other multiple 10/22 owners on the necessity for one in the LTR.
Loose pins come more from being driven in and out all the time for maintenance than anything else - or being driven out and inserted the wrong direction.
Quote from: gjwilliamsjr on July 03, 2009, 05:35:18 AM
I guess my mind doesn't want to accept that I'm not 20 years old anymore. Any advice on the LTR or the scope/sight controversy would be greatly appreciated.--Thanks--Gary
Just went through the same thing last weekend myself. I remember when I could sight down my marlin and the front sight and 200 meter rams were sharp and clear. Not so anymore. I had a lot of trouble getting a good sight picture, finally diagnosed by the excellent instructors. Tried my last AQT with a borrowed LTR and scope, shot far better. I have put my air rifle scope on for the next Appleseed because it looks like I may need a longer barrel to really focus the front sight if I use iron sights. If you got a 10/22 with the 20" barrel you may be ok as I can see the sights on my muzzle loaders and my Enfield just fine, but my 10/22 carbine, just too darn close.
For the scope, I would put my effort in getting one with the parallax set to 25 yards, it will make a lot of difference. I know from air rifle shooting. Some scopes can have the parallax adjusted a small bit to help correct the problem but nearly all firearm scopes have the parallax set for 100 yards and sighting at 25 yards can be a pain. Unfortunately you really don't see the difference until you use a scope with proper parallax. Shop the air rifle stores like www.pyramydair.com. Magnum spring powered air rifles are notorious for eating scopes so the air rifle guys are big fans of tough, clear, and parallax adjusted optics.
Hope that helps.
DAve
My LTR parts list:
Stock: Hogue Overmolded Rifle Stock, Ruger 10/22, Standard Barrel Channel $75 http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/hogue-overmolded-rifle-stocks.aspx?a=277557
10 round mag: Ruger 10/22 Long Rifle 10 rd mags $15
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/ruger-10-22-22lr-10-rd-mag.aspx?a=70686
Parts kit: Extended mag release, jumbo bolt cock handle, bolt recoil buffer, auto bolt release $25
http://www.tacticalinc.com/ruger-1022-four-piece-accessory-combo-p-1105.html
25 round mag: Tactical Innovations (superior lip and adjustability) $45
http://www.tacticalinc.com/ti25-advanced-composite-steel-magazine-ruger-1022-p-532.html
Only necessary if you want a good high capacity magazine
Scope: Bushnell .22 Rimfire 3-9x32 Rifle Scope Matte Multi-X $42
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=887219 (comes with scope rings)
Scope mount base: Ruger 1-piece Tip-Off Weaver-Style Scope Base Ruger 10/22 Matte $8
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=959343
Scope cover (ocular): Butler Creek Flip-Up Rifle Scope Lens Cover #11 Eyepiece $9
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=743815
Scope cover (objective): Butler Creek Flip-Up Rifle Scope Lens Cover #15 Objective $9
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=526417
Chart to determine scope covers: http://www.opticsplanet.net/butler-creek-flip-open-scope-covers.html
Iron sights (if you don't want scope): Tech-Sights for Ruger 10/22, TSR 200 front/rear set $69
http://tech-sights.com/
Sling and swivels (studs come with rifle): Outdoor Connection 1.25" $13
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=2403113667
Black duct tape to wind around rear end of sling to make it thick so it doesn't come out of swivel $0
Any hardware store
Standard Ruger 10/22 rifle $160 @ Bimart
Scoring Rifleman at an Appleseed PRICELESS
I found out something that may be common knowledge to you guys but made a huge difference in my shooting the 10/22.
I used to sight in from a rest without using the sling and would have problems with proper zero when shooting for score. Since I keep the sling as tight as possible I realized the rifle is being stressed differently. I tried using the tight hasty sling and keeping my position to the scope consistent when setting zero, no problems after that. Just had to make a small dial in of three clicks and my score increased. I also "tap" the scope with a mag lightly to make sure the internals seat properly after making any adjustment.
By far my best day shooting the 10/22, this is getting more fun every day.
Come on FORTYSIX!! :D
Here is a good reference doc for this thread.
A one page flyer with details to get someone started on building an LTR.
This flyer has made the rounds since it was originally done over a year ago. It's been posted on other threads and redone for the blog. It's time that it makes an appearance on the LTR thread.
The only update that I would make would be to recommend using the Uncle Mike's Swivel Stud 115 RGS Set with the wood screws with coarse threads. Rather than the 115B model recommended in the flyer. Using the 115 model with the machine screws for the front stud will loosen up and rip loose from a wooden stock during the course of an Appleseed. Unless you add a matching nut and some epoxy.
Gave me a good reason to convert to a Hogue overmolded stock after I muscled the stud loose form the factory wood stock. The Hogue offers longer LOP and better feel. But this is an individual preference and not an LTR requirement. I have not pulled out the studs from the Hogue yet. YMMV.
Quote from: Junior Birdman on July 11, 2009, 02:13:47 PM
Come on FORTYSIX!! :D
Nice shot, JB. Dead center. Good call on the wind. O0
Honest to Pete. If y'all are pulling studs out of stocks you MIGHT want to think about loosening up those slings! Slings should be snug. Snug will get the job done and won't pull out the studs! :)
I finally made it through this whole thread! Eminently worthwhile, a lot of knowlege displayed here.
My thoughts on the matter:
Since I aim to teach other people, I am going to buy a 10/22 and perhaps a 795 as well. The tinkerer in me can't resist having a 10/22 to accessorize, but I learned to shoot with Marlin rifles, and I don't see why a 795 with good sights and a sling won't be a perfectly good trainer.
When I made rifleman, I did it with a rifle borrowed from a friend. A 10/22 with a laminated stock and a 4x Simmons scope. I always considered a sping-piston air rifle or single-shot .22 target rifle quite adequate for my practice needs, until I came to appleseed and found I needed a rapid-fire rifle... and I wasn't going to spend the pain in the wallet or shoulder to shoot my M1A 800 rounds.
- I stuck a Boyt 1907-style 1" leather sling on it, borrowed from one of my milsurps.
- I bought a fistful of clear Ruger rotary magazines. The clear bodies are worth every penny of the extra $5 because you can clearly see exactly what you have loaded.
- I found that really tightening down on the sling (attached to the barrel band), like I was used to doing with my M1A in Service Rifle matches, shifted POI notably.
- I had the stock 'flat' mag release, and in a lot of ways I liked it. Given the flush-fitting rotary magazines, I could put my hand right under the balance point of the rifle when shooting offhand; just like on my Garand. It slowed me down a little, but I didn't see that the lever-type ones were that much better (I did operate one during the ball & dummy exercise). This is practice for well-placed individual shots, not a speed-reloading game! I don't trust magazines to drop free, I always pull them out and manually control where they're going, even if it's "throw it anywhere but underfoot!"
- I bought a few different types of ammo. American Eagles would stovepipe about once every 10 rounds. Blazers misfired every now and then. Remington Vipers fed & fired better than I expected for the truncated cone bullet shape; but made a 'pattern' more than a group. Remington Thunderbolts fed & fired until the end of days -- Maybe 3-4 misfires out of ~1500 rounds, and they always went within about a bullet diameter of my call at the 20-yard backyard range.
- I spent several hundred rounds getting familiar with the rifle (and adjusting the scope position for my needs) before taking it to appleseed -- time well spent, even if I didn't know much about what to expect from an appleseed shoot other than having to change positions throughout the course of fire. I was still getting used to the trigger as I was going through the course of fire, but I kept getting better.
- I learned that scopes (especially without covers) suck in the rain.
- I learned that if you do have a scope, you should have a cleaning brush for it, in case it gets wet/dirty. Canned air works, but will run out.
Thoughts for the future:
- Adjustable stocks are great, not only for small shooters, but even for large shooters who heed Jeff Cooper's advice to scrunch down behind that rifle. The Knoxx Axxiom looks interesting.
- Pink guns may put certain shooters at ease (based on comments I've gotten from people I was teaching in other venues). Not to be sexist, but they were female. Don't force it on anyone; but it's nice to have a rifle with a pink stock as an option.
- My girlfriend likes purple... I may have to get one of those purple-stocked 10/22s.
- "Red ones go faster!" so I need a red stock on my 10/22.
- I want one of those shells that let you hang AR15 whizzbangs off your 10/22 so I can satisfy my urge to accessorize.
- How did I end up 'needing' 5+ 10/22s?
- I've not yet shot with a web sling; I'll have to try one and get used to it.
- What do y'all think of using a slip-on 'flash suppressor' to protect the muzzle when a n00b sticks it in the dirt?
- My gunsmith has a stack of NikkoSterling 4x scopes for $30/ea. He says they're pretty durable, and my experience with one is that they aren't great, but they are probably quite appropriate to put on a loaner gun that will get rained on and dropped in the dirt.
Quote from: Redchrome on July 23, 2009, 06:57:00 PMSince I aim to teach other people, I am going to buy a 10/22 and perhaps a 795 as well. The tinkerer in me can't resist having a 10/22 to accessorize, but I learned to shoot with Marlin rifles, and I don't see why a 795 with good sights and a sling won't be a perfectly good trainer.
Get whatever you want. The object is to have a magazine-fed, sling-equipped, peep- or scope-sighted .22 rifle so you can get in a lot of cheap practice. Just as long as it's RELIABLE.
Quote from: Redchrome on July 23, 2009, 06:57:00 PMI had the stock 'flat' mag release, and in a lot of ways I liked it. Given the flush-fitting rotary magazines, I could put my hand right under the balance point of the rifle when shooting offhand; just like on my Garand. It slowed me down a little, but I didn't see that the lever-type ones were that much better (I did operate one during the ball & dummy exercise). This is practice for well-placed individual shots, not a speed-reloading game! I don't trust magazines to drop free, I always pull them out and manually control where they're going, even if it's "throw it anywhere but underfoot!"
Trust me... a properly shaped mag will ALWAYS drop free from a Ruger. You may have to do a bit of trimming, but they do drop free.
Quote from: Redchrome on July 23, 2009, 06:57:00 PMI bought a few different types of ammo. American Eagles would stovepipe about once every 10 rounds.
I have come to the conclusion that Volquartsen Exact Edge Extractors are worth their weight in gold. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=363360 Given that they're $11.29, and the LTRs I've equipped with them have been to several shoots now with ZERO failures to extract, I will putting one in EVERY 10/22 I ever own.
Quote from: Redchrome on July 23, 2009, 06:57:00 PMI spent several hundred rounds getting familiar with the rifle (and adjusting the scope position for my needs) before taking it to appleseed
Oh, my G-d... I'm in love. I have given up counting how many people - including shooters who should know better!! - bring rifles to the shoots that are either still in the shrinkwrap, or have just been modified, or they've got brand new ammo or magazines for... Those are the shooters who get handed my LTRs. I have NO PATIENCE left for malfunctioning rifles - if the shooters are futzing around with their rifles, they AIN'T learning!! I wish I had more shooters with your attitude at my shoots!!!
I learned to shoot on single shot bolt action .22 target rifles in Junior High School, in the days they weren't worried about young people with guns under guidance. And although I see that 10/22 and other semi-automatic rifles will be nice, when worked on a bit as a loaner for an Appleseed -- I just don't have that kind of money for shooting one in my practice nor loaning out. I do, and am, going back to my single-shot target .22, and work on my refining techniques - since I can drop four bullets not fired in the second and third phase of the qualification and still make Rifleman with the 230 points left. And as I get the Rifleman's Cadence down, I may use all forty rounds and be very qualified.
Over all, it is still best to be very familiar with your rifle, positions and techniques for slings before you get to the range --- but many of the people coming to an Appleseed are there because they want to LEARN from experts, volunteers they may be but still experts. Those may not make Rifleman in their first Appleseed, but they will normally be back if encouraged properly. I will be looking for a 10/22 or other magazine fed semi-auto .22 to use, when the money rolls in or the prices are perfect, until then I encourage everyone to sharpen up with what they have.
Quote from: Redchrome on July 23, 2009, 06:57:00 PM
Thoughts for the future:
- Adjustable stocks are great, not only for small shooters, but even for large shooters who heed Jeff Cooper's advice to scrunch down behind that rifle. The Knoxx Axxiom looks interesting.
- Pink guns may put certain shooters at ease (based on comments I've gotten from people I was teaching in other venues). Not to be sexist, but they were female. Don't force it on anyone; but it's nice to have a rifle with a pink stock as an option.
- My girlfriend likes purple... I may have to get one of those purple-stocked 10/22s.
- "Red ones go faster!" so I need a red stock on my 10/22.
- I want one of those shells that let you hang AR15 whizzbangs off your 10/22 so I can satisfy my urge to accessorize.
- How did I end up 'needing' 5+ 10/22s?
- I've not yet shot with a web sling; I'll have to try one and get used to it.
- What do y'all think of using a slip-on 'flash suppressor' to protect the muzzle when a n00b sticks it in the dirt?
- My gunsmith has a stack of NikkoSterling 4x scopes for $30/ea. He says they're pretty durable, and my experience with one is that they aren't great, but they are probably quite appropriate to put on a loaner gun that will get rained on and dropped in the dirt.
On a few points...
Adjustable stocks ARE great...but the purists want to see wood. I have 2 LTRs that I take to the shoots with me; one is a 20" barreled action in a birch carbine stock, and the other is a standard carbine in a Tapco stock. I have seen 11yo shooters fold up on that rifle and shoot well, and 2 hours later a 6'+ shooter does the same. I modded mine to take an AR-style grip, which I sourced from CAA. It has 3 panels for the front and rear and can be adapted to fit about any hand size. The AR grip has one big advantage over the SAW grip that comes with the Tapco: it has a longer 'reach' (its not really LOP, but its the same idea) than the SAW, which is right up against the rear of the trigger guard. Issues include sling mounting and 'ease of service' if you have to take it apart on the day of the shoot (only an issue if you use the upper composite 'rail'). Bottom line? I love it.
10/22s are the VW beetle of the shooting world. They inspire tinkering, and you can get respectable performance out of one relatively cheaply, if you so desire. I've got 6 now, but I've owned 12 or 13 total. Be warned: they are a disease that will consume you if you let it.
Obtain, learn, and embrace the loop sling. Web slings are good for hanging a rifle off your shoulder, and thats about it.
All of my LTRs (that I've built for others, or are my loaners) have a flash suppressor on them for the very reason you mentioned. Lord knows that the flash on the 10/22 isn't ALL that bad... :D
I dislike optics on an LTR...for the same reason you wouldn't want an automatic on a 1966 Beetle. If you're planning on having several loaners, maybe have ONE of them with it, but I wouldn't spend the $$$ on glass. Too many shooters 'fuss the shot'. Ask me how I know.
Byrdman
Quote from: MCKNBRD on July 23, 2009, 11:17:41 PM
10/22s are the VW beetle of the shooting world. They inspire tinkering, and you can get respectable performance out of one relatively cheaply, if you so desire. I've got 6 now, but I've owned 12 or 13 total. Be warned: they are a disease that will consume you if you let it.
I've resisted getting one for many years, because they were just so ordinary.. everyone has one, and not necessarily because they were good (they aren't), but simply because they were popular. I'm one to buck trends, especially if I see a superior solution. I liked Marlins much better than 10/22s.
Quote from: MCKNBRD on July 23, 2009, 11:17:41 PM
Obtain, learn, and embrace the loop sling. Web slings are good for hanging a rifle off your shoulder, and thats about it.
When I said 'web sling' I meant the web sling used as a looped sling as opposed to the leather 1907-style looped sling I'm used to shooting. I've seen competitors at Service Rifle matches who are Masters at Camp Perry using the looped web sling, so that showed me there was some merit to it, even before I went to an Appleseed and saw some demonstrations of how to use it.
Quote from: MCKNBRD on July 23, 2009, 11:17:41 PM
I dislike optics on an LTR...for the same reason you wouldn't want an automatic on a 1966 Beetle. If you're planning on having several loaners, maybe have ONE of them with it, but I wouldn't spend the $$$ on glass. Too many shooters 'fuss the shot'. Ask me how I know.
Yeah, fussing the shot can be an issue for new shooters. The radical eye relief changes of different positions can be another. I'm not accustomed to shooting with a scope, and the fiddling I did getting that scoped rifle ready for Appleseed taught me what a poor notion they are for the kind of conditions to be encountered on the Appleseed range.
Normally I wouldn't say much about this but given ammo is trending back towards sane levels if not good Ive started trying out a few different brands in the Ruger and Marlin. I was literally shocked in the improvement the Wolf Target ammo was giving me in both rifles. My groups were almost half the size of the Subsonic I had been using. If this had been 17.00 a box match ammo sure but at 4.50 a box it might not pay to burn it up at the range but for a AS yes! Now be warned its still a bit hard to find and may not do as well in yours due to the inconsistency in 22 barrels but may be worth grabbing a box to try out at the range.
Now if I can convince my wife to get me a couple of thousand Silver Bear for the 308 for Christmas.....
Quote from: Rhodes on July 27, 2009, 03:26:28 AM
Now if I can convince my wife to get me a couple of thousand Silver Bear for the 308 for Christmas.....
Christmas in July?? That's too far ahead for me to comprehend. Although now that I think about it...hmmm O0
I really like the idea of a 10-22 set up as described in this thread, and am considering purchasing one to set up in this manner. Can anyone answer the following?
1) Can anyone quantify the difference (if any) in accuracy that can be expected between a Ruger standard barrel, a Ruger bull barrel, and an aftermarket bull barrel?
2) If the aftermarket bull barrel is worth getting, which ones do you recommend?
3) Is it possible to buy just the action, without the stock and barrel, if I intend to use aftermarket components?
4) If you are using a bull barrel with the tech sight adapter, does this create any cleaning issues?
Thanks in advance for any information.
Quote from: BillSWPA on August 03, 2009, 11:07:54 PM
I really like the idea of a 10-22 set up as described in this thread, and am considering purchasing one to set up in this manner. Can anyone answer the following?
1) Can anyone quantify the difference (if any) in accuracy that can be expected between a Ruger standard barrel, a Ruger bull barrel, and an aftermarket bull barrel?
2) If the aftermarket bull barrel is worth getting, which ones do you recommend?
1 and 2 I can comment on,
The only add ons I think are really needed are a good mag release and good sights. I am biased and I have become a bit of a firearms luddite, I have given away enough rifle/pistol/revolver "upgrades" to buy several 10/22s over the last 30 years. Take the cash a new barrel costs and change it to quarters, then take a quarter every time you dry fire for 15 minutes a day. In six months you will be a better marksman and have 20 pounds of quarters to boot.
I can tell you that I have shot rifleman with a 1980s vintage 10/22 that has led a long and hard life. With the right ammo it will 5 put rounds in one ragged hole at 25 yards. With any ammo it will shoot 4 MOA at that distance and get you a rifleman patch, **if you do your part**.
A hand lapped air gauged cryogenic stress relieved spiral fluted barrel made from unobtainium will not get you a rifleman patch if you cannot shoot it well.
DAve
Quote from: BillSWPA on August 03, 2009, 11:07:54 PM
4) If you are using a bull barrel with the tech sight adapter, does this create any cleaning issues?
None. But affixing the adapter to the .920 barrel requires locktite and I suggest it should also involve a pair of levels. One on the front dovetail, 2nd on the bottom of the magwell. Ensure that the two are in alignment for best results.
[/quote]
Quote from: BillSWPA on August 03, 2009, 11:07:54 PM
2) If the aftermarket bull barrel is worth getting, which ones do you recommend?
3) Is it possible to buy just the action, without the stock and barrel, if I intend to use aftermarket components?
2. Most are unavailable today. I was able to acquire a Green Mountain which is a good compromise between price and availability.
3. Ruger does not sell receivers as a standalone product. Other companies however, do. Nodac Spud and several others.
General information on modifying or accurizing the Ruger 10/22:
http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=9
Specific discussions about barrels:
http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=10
Bill,
Welcome to the forum and thank you for your interest in the Appleseed Project. As you just signed up and this is your first post, I'm going to make some assumptions in my response.
My first assumption is that you have not yet attended an Appleseed event. When you do you will discover that there will be many different types of rifles on the firing line. While the recent increases in ammo have certainly increased the popularity of the rimfire rifles, there is no one correct answer for what is the best rifle.
The standard of Appleseed Marksmanship training is to teach people the skills needed to put 9 out of 10 shots in a one inch square at 25 yards. It may surprise you to learn that a stock Ruger 10/22 is capable of that performance. The addition of a GI Web sling, Tech sights and Extended Mag Release are only additions really recommended to improve the stock 10/22. The proper use of the Sling will tighten up your groups by improving your ability to keep the front sight on the target. The Tech Sights will provide improved and finer sight adjustments that will be helpful as your skills improve. And the extended Mag release will save fumbling on the courses of fire that require a magazine change.
While you certainly can you improve a 10/22 with bull barrels and other custom components, it's not required. The biggest improvement is a Rifle's accuracy comes from upgrading the skills of the shooter. And thats what the Appleseed events are designed to do.
One of the things that you will learn as you hang around Appleseed long enough is that it is not a hardware race. When you attend your first Appleseed, there will probably everything from Military Surplus Enfields, Mosin Nagants and Garands to Fals, M1A's and various Evil Black Rifles.
And in between all of them will be a teenager with a 10/22 LTR that will be out shooting all of them. And next to him/her will be someone shooting a Russian Mosin Nagant which is hardly a refined rifle. You would be better served by building the basic LTR as outlined in this thread and attending an Appleseed. Take the money you saved and buy some ammo and range time.
There is always time to build the "Ultimate Rifle" later, it's just not needed to attend an Appleseed.
I know that this response so far has not directly answer your question, but I can recommend the folks over at Rimfire Central as a great resource for your technical questions http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/index.php (http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/index.php) on anything 10/22 related.
Back to your question, the Bull Barrels are more popular in bench rest shooting where the weight is not a factor. Bull Barrels will have a tighter chamber designed for Match Ammo. Combined this will be more accurate than the stock barrel and bulk ammo, but you won't be able to shot higher Velocity Ammo like CCI Stingers. You can spend more than the purchase price of a base 10/22 on an aftermarket barrel. Green Mountain seems to be a popular choice. Volquartsen makes a CNC Milled Aluminum Receiver but they not inexpensive either. I can't speak to last question about Tech Sight cleaning issues on a bull receiver as all mine are mounted on factory standard barrels.
Doing some quick math, by the time you build a custom 10/22 with aftermarket parts, you would have spent enough to buy an M1 Garand from the Civilian Marksmanship Program. http://www.thecmp.org/eligibility.htm (http://www.thecmp.org/eligibility.htm)
And completing an Appleseed event counts as a "Marksmanship or other Firearms Related Activity" for the purpose of qualification. And the RWVA is a CMP affiliated organization.
Good luck with your decision and again Welcome.
Thanks for the replies.
I almost did attend the Appleseed event at Beaver Valley Rifle & Pistol Club, where I am a member, but unfortunately a schedule conflict prevented my attending. I am likely to attend the next one that is offered at my range.
I am a fan of the "Evil Black Rifle," and mine is now equipped with a USGI sling purchased from this site. Looking at the cost of ammo, it is clear that practice with a rimfire will have to be a priority, and that, if selected properly, it will pay for itself rather quickly in ammo savings. I currently own a Mossberg 144 bolt action that is equipped with peep sights, but even with a post rather than an aperture in front, it doesn't really duplicate the AR sight picture.
Some quick internet searching has revealed 10-22 variants costing upwards of $1,000, which would certainly defeat the purpose of cost savings. My goal is to have something that duplicates the AR sight picture, is accurate enough so that any misses are my fault rather than the gun's fault, and does not cost more than I need to spend to achieve this purpose.
Based on the responses received so far it looks like the standard barrel may be the way to go. It appears from prior posts that many of you like bull barrels, but I did see one complaint about reliability issues from tight chambers. Also, many of these bull barrels appear to be .92 inch in diameter, while my Mossberg - an absolute tack driver - has only a .75 inch diameter barrel. Considering other purposes for which I might use the rifle, for example, teaching my family and the occasional friend how to shoot, I'd like to keep the weight within that which would be comfortable for a beginner.
I totally agree with the comments about skill being more important than hardware. However, I have found that the right hardware is helpful in developing the right skills.
If I select the standard barrel, do you recommend I do anything with the barrel band and/or the bedding of the barrel in the stock?
Quote from: BillSWPA on August 04, 2009, 03:04:22 PM
Thanks for the replies.
If I select the standard barrel, do you recommend I do anything with the barrel band and/or the bedding of the barrel in the stock?
I would wait and put a brink or two through it first. My 10/22 and the 10/22 of a good friend both shot the same with or without the barrel band. However, once I fixed the extreme slop in the action/stock the barrel was just high enough to have pressure exerted by the band and now my rifle shoots better without the band installed. Your mileage may vary.
Try it and see. If like me you like the look of the band installed (and a bit of support should a new shooter drop the rifle) it can be relived so it does not apply pressure to the barrel.
DAve
Quote from: BillSWPA on August 04, 2009, 03:04:22 PM
I totally agree with the comments about skill being more important than hardware. However, I have found that the right hardware is helpful in developing the right skills.
If I select the standard barrel, do you recommend I do anything with the barrel band and/or the bedding of the barrel in the stock?
Indeed, not having to fight the hardware will make it a lot easier to learn. This is why good sights and a good trigger and a good sling are really important.
However, accuracy isn't really a problem at 25m. Shootability still is. Bull barrels do not make the gun more 'shootable'.
This thread has covered the issue of barrel bands at some length. My synopsis is:
- If you can put on a sling swivel screwed into the stock itself, don't use the barrelband sling swivel; it'll affect POI depending on how hard you pull on it.
- Once you've alleviated that tension, determining whether the rifle shoots better with or without the band is something you'll have to experiment with.
- If you're worrying about bedding the barrel, you're worrying too much. Just make sure your stock screw is tight.
I made rifleman with a borrowed 10/22 with the sling on the barrelband, stock trigger, stock mag release, and stock bolt release. The only accuracy improvements were a 4x Simmons scope and a 1" leather 1907-style sling I borrowed off another rifle I had.
My advice is to go buy the 10/22 and at least 5 (clear-bodied, rotary) magazines for it. Go shoot at an Appleseed, then figure out what improvements you might
like to have. You don't need them, it just makes things less aggravating.
I would suggest a patch of skateboard tape on the butt. Otherwise the slick plastic buttplate tends to slide around.
Bill, there is an Applseed at Slippery Rock the 15th and 16th. Take the Mossberg. One of the students that qualified at BVRPC was shooting a model 44US from the CMP. Then build your LTR. O0
I've built several 10/22 LTRs; 2 that I have now as loaners, and many that were done for others. As far as that goes, I've built a few 'ultimates', too. Bottom line up front: you don't need anything more than a basic 10/22, decent sights (Tech-Sights or something similar), a few extra magazines, and a loop sling.
Having said that... ;)
The 10/22 is kind of a habit for me. I've got my LTRs, but I have a 'squirrel gun' that is a tackdriver. It has a VQ THM Tension barrel, VQ cantilever scope mount, Bushnell 3-9x40 scope, bolt buffer, Hogue stock, and GI Loop sling, as far as parts I've bought for it. I radiused the bolt, worked the trigger/hammer for a better pull and crisper break, did the !bolt release mod, and sharpened the extractor on it. What can it do? Anything I want it to...I hit a rat in the eye at 93yds a couple of years ago; its better than I am. That being the case, its a finicky little devil, and I have to feed it a VERY specific diet, and its VERY hard to clear the chamber if you load a live cartridge and have to extract it. TIGHT little chamber that Tom has on his barrels...
Having said all that, my AQT score went UP when I used my 20" barreled LTR with Tech-Sights. Since I've been building them, I've had several of my LTRs (my loaners AND ones I've done for others) make riflemen out of their shooters. They're reliable, repeatable, and damn durable little pieces.
The basic 10/22 is by and far capable of making the 4moa 'cut', but there are many things to do to make them more 'shooter friendly'. Cleaning up the trigger is a bone of contention, as most folks think 'match trigger' when any work is done. I usually just clean the trigger up and make it break more consistently. Other things I do include clean up the flashing or rough edges from the die cut parts, !bolt release mod, install extended mag release if it didn't have one (New ones from Ruger DO have them), install sling swivels and sling (into the wood, not the barrel band!), put a pressure pad under where the barrel band clamps (Keeps the pressure more consistent, and maintains the 'stock' look), and add a flash suppresor. No, its not because of the blinding flash and resulting flashburns from the .22LR; the muzzle usually ends up in the dirt or banging off the concrete more than once during an Appleseed (especially if its a loaner, right Instructors?) and the FH is a stylish way to protect it while also keeping the Tech-Sights from coming off if they loosen (which I've never seen happen on mine, FWIW).
Check out my post in the 'deals and steals' section to see what they look like when I'm done.
Byrdman
Quote from: MCKNBRD on August 05, 2009, 12:05:51 AM
Check out my post in the 'deals and steals' section to see what they look like when I'm done.
Byrdman
Nice rifle!
Just the parts that matter changed. I like it. What FH is that you have installed? I have considered one for my own LTR after seeing a line from the Orange Hats perspective. Also, how on earth do you see through the Tech Sights with out a raised comb? I know some can do it but I can not see through anything higher than a Williams sight without a raised comb. I got small head, or nerdy cheek bones, can't say which.
DAve
Quote from: yellowhousejake on August 05, 2009, 01:06:05 AM
Quote from: MCKNBRD on August 05, 2009, 12:05:51 AM
Check out my post in the 'deals and steals' section to see what they look like when I'm done.
Byrdman
Nice rifle!
Just the parts that matter changed. I like it. What FH is that you have installed? I have considered one for my own LTR after seeing a line from the Orange Hats perspective.
Its from Masen, I think. I've got one of the long ones, too, but its on a 16" barrel sitting in a Tapco stock. Quite possibly the 'ultimate' LTR, as just about everything on it is adjustable; LOP, Grip sizes (I have a CAA grip on it), and the angled tube makes it work well with irons.
QuoteAlso, how on earth do you see through the Tech Sights with out a raised comb? I know some can do it but I can not see through anything higher than a Williams sight without a raised comb. I got small head, or nerdy cheek bones, can't say which.
DAve
Well, after I attended an Appleseed and realized the IMPORTANCE of a good cheek weld, I saw a plastic surgeon and had my cheekbone on my right side relieved so it would allow a better cheek weld on a larger number of rifles. ++) ::) :D
OK, not really. They work fine for me, but it forces my head down a little, and encourages a GOOD turkey neck to be consistent. If you need to, don't be afraid to get a couple of pieces of leather and fabricate your own cheek riser.
Byrdman
Quote from: MCKNBRD on August 05, 2009, 08:20:05 AM
OK, not really. They work fine for me, but it forces my head down a little, and encourages a GOOD turkey neck to be consistent. If you need to, don't be afraid to get a couple of pieces of leather and fabricate your own cheek riser.
Byrdman
I used a product called "Vet Wrap". I now have a roll in my IITbag along with some noodle foam. Vet Wrap is a self adhesive elastic wrap. Think Ace Bandage without the steel hooks. I also comes in colors, mine is Florescent Purple and my wife thinks is looks "cool".
A piece of foam, a couple quick wraps of Vet Wrap, and you have a raised comb without hooks, it isn't slick like duct tape, no sticky adhesive, and it feels better on the face. You can get it at farm stores like Tractor Supply, $2.50 buys enough to do three LTRs easily. A good item for IITs to keep around.
DAve
You don't need a special 10/22 to make rifleman. After just missing using a 5 shot, bolt action 223 rifle, shot 206 with 4 rounds left from running out of time, I bought an off the rack basic 10/22 and installed a Bushnell scope on it. I shot a 221 in the first AQT I shot with it.
The biggest change made to my 10/22 I made on the line. The length of pull was too short for me, so I took some cardboard and some of the tape that was mentioned in an earlier post, and extended the butt of my stock. I do recommend buying sling swivel mounts that screw into the stock for your sling. I bought a set at Cabellas for less than $5.
If you do it right, you can get a rifle, install the sights and sling mounts and buy magazines for less than $400. Along with good sessions dry firing while practicing your fundamentals, this is all you need to make rifleman.
I will have to look deeper into getting a semi-auto .22 rifle, Remington has a very nice one, but a bit costly. Will have to look at them harder, after paying the bills.
Quote from: Earl on August 08, 2009, 01:20:56 AM
I will have to look deeper into getting a semi-auto .22 rifle, Remington has a very nice one, but a bit costly. Will have to look at them harder, after paying the bills.
I recommend you research the remmy semi before you buy one.
10/22's and especially Marlin 795's are affordable and proven.
Quote from: Earl on August 08, 2009, 01:20:56 AM
I will have to look deeper into getting a semi-auto .22 rifle, Remington has a very nice one, but a bit costly. Will have to look at them harder, after paying the bills.
To be honest, this is the easiest way to get some range time with a 10/22 LTR. How? Your 597 will puke the extractor halfway through an Appleseed and you'll have a prepared Orange or Red Hat hand you a loaner LTR to finish the course of fire.
I have yet to see a 597 make it through a Saturday without some kind of problem. They can't all be maintenance related...
On the other hand, every 10/22 problem I've seen has been maintenance related: ie, they haven't cleaned it since Dad got it in 1974 and handed it over to them 13 years ago.
If you get a chance to get a 597 for around $75, I'd consider it. On the other hand, if you want something reliable, pick up a 10/22 and do the LTR stuff to it.
Byrdman
There are lots of changes that can be made to a Ruger 10/22. Some like "Tech Sites" are pretty standard within the Appleseed community.
There are times when as you make changes to your rifle you need to stop and think about what you are doing. Case in point: A gentleman wants to build a 10/22 for his son. He finds a pistol conversion with a 10 inch barrel, he mounts a nice scope, and it turns out to be very accurate. Of course, you don't use pistols at Appleseeds so he buys an after market AR15 type collapsible stock and he has the perfect rifle for his son to shoot at an Appleseed. It's light compact and accurate. IT"S ALSO ILLEGAL. This is what BATF calls an SBR (short barreled rifle) or Title Three weapon and it can only be assembled after sending a Form 1 with two hundred dollars, a fingerprint card and an NAC backround check to BATF and receiving a Form 4 with attached tax stamp in return.
This is a major felony and can get you in all sorts of trouble. I found this rifle on the line at an Appleseed and asked the owner if I could see the Form 4. He didn't know what I was talking about and defended his actions by saying all the parts were for sale in box stores so it couldn't be illegal. I explained what a short barreled rifle was and made him take it off the line. I recommended he disassemble it, take the barrel off and either get rid of the stock or the barrel. Or else find a class three dealer to help him file the Form 1 and apply for a tax stamp.
Please be careful. We don't want anyone to get in trouble.
VAShooter
WOW. VA Shooter makes a GREAT point, especially now that Ruger muddied the waters with the Chargers. Technically speaking, you CAN put a longer barrel (at least 16" to be legal) on a Charger receiver and mount it in a rifle stock and it be legal...however, technically, that Charger receiver can no longer have a pistol stock or pistol barrel re-attached, or it becomes an SBR and is subject to all the above NFA stuff VA Shooter mentioned.
Fortunately, most Instructors have loaner LTRs, right? It would be an easy transition for the young shooter if someone had a loaner 10/22 for him to use. All it would take would be for someone 'in the know' about SBRs or suppressors to see one of these '10/22s' on the line, being used by an unsuspecting shooter (and implicitly OK'd by the IITs, Red Hats, Green Hats, et al.), and report it for us to be in a HEAP of trouble.
Which begs the question...how do we handle Class III stuff on the line? What if someone shows up with a rifle with a short barrel on it, even if he has the Form 4? Suppressors? I haven't seen it happen, but its bound to, eventually. What is the (probably soon to be written up) Appleseed policy on it?
Ugh. Hadn't even thought of that situation...
Byrdman
If the man had shown me a Form 4 for that SBR I would have permitted it on the line and remarked about what a neat idea it was.
VAShooter
Those of you shooting LTR's wearing Hogue overmolded stocks, how much sanding did you have to do to your mags to get them to drop free? I have 8 loaner LTR's, five of which are in Hogue stocks. I have 52 magazines. It took me the better part of a day to get the sand and rain out of them, and get eight flats set on those springs. So what am I looking at in sanding them to drop free? A weekend? What kind of gap you gentlemen looking for? A business card? On each side, or all the way round? Yes, I realize it'll be trial and error, I'm just looking for some insight on what the task looks like in a big picture sense.
Thanks for your time.
I went a different direction with mine. I have two 10/22s in the Hogue Overmolded stocks. One of mine droped mags without a problem straight from the box. The other didn't so instead of altering the mags, I used a file on the mag well of the stock. It took a about an hour or so of filing a little, putting the action back in the stock and checking, taking it back down and filing again until it worked. Now I don't have to have to worry about having special mags just for this one rifle.
Quote from: CetmeManNH on August 30, 2009, 11:57:57 PM
Those of you shooting LTR's wearing Hogue overmolded stocks, how much sanding did you have to do to your mags to get them to drop free? I have 8 loaner LTR's, five of which are in Hogue stocks. I have 52 magazines. It took me the better part of a day to get the sand and rain out of them, and get eight flats set on those springs. So what am I looking at in sanding them to drop free? A weekend? What kind of gap you gentlemen looking for? A business card? On each side, or all the way round? Yes, I realize it'll be trial and error, I'm just looking for some insight on what the task looks like in a big picture sense.
Thanks for your time.
I've never been able to get a clean cut on the rubber below the mag well shell. Were you sanding that shell? I tried an exacto knife on the rubber, and was decidedly unimpressed with the results.
I didn't sand or cut anything at all. I just used a 1" file and it took it off... rubber and the fiberglass core. However, it worked more efficiently on the rubber when pushing my cutting stroke from bottom of the stock through the mag well. The file was pretty new so the blades/groves in the file were still sharp.
Quote from: CetmeManNH on August 31, 2009, 12:58:41 AM
I've never been able to get a clean cut on the rubber below the mag well shell. Were you sanding that shell? I tried an exacto knife on the rubber, and was decidedly unimpressed with the results.
Okay then. I guess it's another trip to Home Depot for a new file.
Thanks for your time.
Had my first LTR failure last weekend :-[ I have 5 events in 6 weekends coming up - so need to git it repaired ASAP!
Rear site base screws stripped out from recoil - despite locktite and careful install some several thousand rounds ago.
Considering drilling and tapping to larger screw - hate to use JB Weld.
Any better ideas or good source for screws?
PH
I'm not sure of the current thread, but drilling it out and tapping to the next larger thread size is probably the cheapest way to go. I'd think that you wouldn't want to use the NC threads but the fine thread pitch.
There was a product called "Heli-Coil". Drill the hole bigger, tap it (special tap in the kit), screw in an insert, re-use original size screws. Don't know if they go that small though. If you drill and go bigger, you'll prolly have to drill the scope / tech base bigger for both the screw and the screw head. Use kerosene when you drill & tap aluminum.
Arrrgggg! Timing is everything >:(
Good luck. Let us know how you made out, please. We're all gonna run into this at some point.
EEL
Edit 8/31/09 1540 hrs CDT Here ya go!! they have 6-32 and 8-32 listed
http://www.emhart.com/pdf/Heli%20Coil/HC2000%20Rev%204.pdf
Quote from: PHenry on August 31, 2009, 03:34:13 PM
Had my first LTR failure last weekend :-[ I have 5 events in 6 weekends coming up - so need to git it repaired ASAP!
Rear site base screws stripped out from recoil - despite locktite and careful install some several thousand rounds ago.
Considering drilling and tapping to larger screw - hate to use JB Weld.
Any better ideas or good source for screws?
PH
What rifle is that? Rear sight screws on a 22LR stripped out from recoil seems odd to me. I suspect the screws never fit right in the first place. Remember if you go bigger and retap, every time you increase the thread size you loose some thread engagement, especially on a thin 22 receiver like a 10/22.
I would be tempted to redrill and retap new holes and make certain that the tap and screws are Brownells quality and not Harbor Freight quality.
DAve
Brownells sells slightly over-sized screws just for this purpose.
Yes, helicoils would work, but if you are drilling and tapping, why not bump up to the next size anyways?
Has anyone had issue with the Tactical Solutions Extended Mag Releases? I had two snap off completely at LFOD, and one bent too much at the narrowest point to be usable. I tried to contact Tac Sol, but a week ago I emailed them, and no reply yet. So, any history of issues with them?
Those helicoils won't work - just checked one of the screws with a micrometer and thread gauge, and the pitch on the scope base screws is 48 TPI (Threads Per Inch). Looks like it's either a 4-48 or a 3-48.
Well I reckon if you are opening up the holes, you can get to a six or eight size hole. What's the smallest helicoil available? I forget what sizes we have on the ship.
Doing a search for small sized inserts, I didn't see anything that small. Nor did I see any that would work in the thickness of aluminum, thread size not taken into consideration at all. So I reckon you'd have to blow out the holes, and thread them for a six or eight screw, after which you'd have to open up the holes in the tech site.
Interesting incident, something for us all to be watchful of.
Reading the heli-coil spec sheet in the link, on p.10-11...They show a 3-48, a 4-40 and a 4-48. Now as to the thickness of the receiver :P I would put a call into Heli-coil. But it certainly looks like they have all the proper screw sizes covered.
EEL
The screws being 48 TPI, would be 6-48, which is pretty standard.
Enlarge them to 8-40, and call it a day.
It will work, it's been done on many rifles before. 8-40 even holds better.
Quote from: Nickle on September 02, 2009, 09:44:34 AM
The screws being 48 TPI, would be 6-48, which is pretty standard.
Enlarge them to 8-40, and call it a day.
It will work, it's been done on many rifles before. 8-40 even holds better.
6-48? Might be... thread diameter on a #6 is supposed to be .14 and I miked the screw at .135.
Bear in mind that 8-40 is the NF (National Fine) thread, and the 8-32 (NC - National Coarse) thread is much more common. You may have to do a little hunting to find 8-40 screws and taps. You want to use a #28 drill (http://www.midstatesbolt.com/tap_drill_sizes.htm) for the hole.
You can get the appropriate taps and drills from Brownells and maybe even Midway.
Well, look at that (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=352438).
Quote from: dwarven1 on September 02, 2009, 10:32:39 AM
Well, look at that (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=352438).
Pretty standard size, along with 6-48. Almost all sight/scope mounting screws will be one or the other.
Thanks for all info - most helpful.
I am "assuming" it were the pounding that caused fail - hard to say. I installed very carefully and did not strip receiver out - of that I am certain. I am not aware of any subsequent tightening of screws, but then these are loaners and who knows what evil has been wrought upon them. I was most disappointed upon seeing the fail, as they have been sturdy little troopers for many events. Truth be toldt - I were a "22 snob" until I set these up and watched them create one Rifleman after another!
Silly me - I was just going to go to hardware store and buy a couple small, fine threaded allen screws and a corresponding tap and drill and have at it. Buy a couple nuts to thread on prior to cutting allen screws to length to repair threads from dremel tool wounds. Would likely need to drill tech site out a bit to accom larger screw. Drill and tap receiver (never heardt of using kerosene - I like it!), and voila! I will likely use the darn loctite on entore sight base this time.
Not sure if I am possessed of the patients required to order something from an actual gunsmith supplier.
I didn't git tall, dark and handsome in this life, but I am darned handy - I'll git-r-done one way or tother and endeavor to remember to post results.
Thanks agin,
PH
An expensive fix for the problem is to get a new receiver. The Kidd receiver will prevent you from stripping out scope base holes in the receiver.
http://coolguyguns.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15&products_id=52
The scope base is integral to the receiver.
Expensive but a great way to solve your stripped hole problem.
another option: http://www.nodakspud.com/NDS-22.htm (http://www.nodakspud.com/NDS-22.htm)
Never used one of these before but they are on sale.
Guys - I started to post this yesterday and stopped, but maybe it needs saying.
This program is all about thinking outside the box. Our fearless founder can squeeze 11 cents out of dime and that ability has served us well.
I will repair the LTR for as little as possible and spend savings in ways that better serve the program. Sure - those fancy receivers are uber-cool, but will they teach more Americans how to shoot safely and accurately than the repaired OEM receiver?
Don't git me wrong - I do appreciate your suggestions and concern - just wish to gently point out that we are about achieving the maximum result for minimum expense. Frugality was one of the traditions of the Founders and it served them well.
Remember them musket balls tossed into the pond by the Redcoats, only to be retrieved the very next day?
I'll fix it for pennies and put it back into the service of Liberty ASAP.
Thanks,
PH
Quote from: PHenry on September 03, 2009, 12:49:14 PM
Guys - I started to post this yesterday and stopped, but maybe it needs saying.
This program is all about thinking outside the box. Our fearless founder can squeeze 11 cents out of dime and that ability has served us well.
I will repair the LTR for as little as possible and spend savings in ways that better serve the program. Sure - those fancy receivers are uber-cool, but will they teach more Americans how to shoot safely and accurately than the repaired OEM receiver?
Don't git me wrong - I do appreciate your suggestions and concern - just wish to gently point out that we are about achieving the maximum result for minimum expense. Frugality was one of the traditions of the Founders and it served them well.
Remember them musket balls tossed into the pond by the Redcoats, only to be retrieved the very next day?
I'll fix it for pennies and put it back into the service of Liberty ASAP.
Thanks,
PH
With that said JB weld the holes shut, re-drill and tap new threads.
Grab some black BBQ paint and spray the receiver black.
Be careful (if you buy screws at the hardware store) that they aren't so long they stick through the top of the receiver and interfere with the bolt.
Blind holes (that don't open out into the action) requie acouple of taps to properly thread the holes. One starts the threading (regular tap) and one is made with a blunter tip that cuts threads to the bottom of the hole. Holes drilled all the way through the top of the receiver probably wouldn't be an issue if you remove the trigger assembly and bolt and clean up the exit hole burrs and remove the metal shavings from the interior of the receiver and then loctite the screws in when installing the base.
If you have the right mentality (or is the redneck, shadetree mechanic type of mentality) you sort of get a kick out of doing it the cheap unortodox way vs. the common high dollar way. There must be something wrong with me. :))
And that saga continues.........
Went hardware store - evidently IQs have dropped sharply there in the last decade or two - nuff said.
Went to a gun shop and owner suggested using JB on the threads of original screws, as they would likely still have enough bite to pull sight down long enough to harden. That would likely work, but concerned about sight working loose and no way to re-tension.
Spotted a scope base for a Rem rifle ($3.95) and it hadt two screws that were near identical to original, but in #8x36 (original #6x40). So went looking for tap and drill, but to zero avail. I will check my taps and see what I have. May actually have to break down and order same from Brownells or similar.
I have 5 events coming up in 7 weeks - needs to git done ASAP. I may end up adding a third or fourth screw just to be sure. Would like to make Rem screws work, as repair would be invisible and allow for removal.
In looking at stripped screws carefully, it looks like the loctite may have failed owing to my cleaning method. Evidently brake cleaner and Loctite are not compatible. This may have allowed the screws to vibrate loose and required tightening that I was not privy to, by someone with a heavy hand.
I do not cotton to cleaning them sans brake cleaner - anybody know of a thread lock compound that is mo resistant to hard chems (other than JB)?
PH
PHenery,
Could be the brake cleaner in your problem. The stuff is made to clean brakes. Firearms are made of many materials that are not as resliiant as brake components.
When cleaning my 10-22s I usually just use elbow grease with a peice of cotton cloth like an old elton john tshirt.
i use brake cleaner to get the "crud" off after using solvent, patches, and tools. or if i have tried a new lubricant and decide that it is not working out well.
you want to stay away from carb. cleaner.
the difference between brake cleaner and carb cleaner
brake cleaner is designed to remove grease and oil.
carb cleaner is designed to remove the "varnish" as well as grease and oil.
i have started using a new lubricant mo2. much better than graphite, a lot more heat resistant than graphite. seems to do well in both hot and cold environments. my usual application involves using a q-tip with little bit of whale oil or break free. dab the q-tip in the mo2 powder and and apply to the wear surfaces of the gun parts.
also something to think about is your cleaning schedule.
your average center fire rifle needs to be cleaned after every use and will usually keep the poi the same for the next use. changing ammo will give a different poi, but you will still have some kind of center of group.
your average rim fire after cleaning (especially the barrel) will take between 4 and 20 shots to get back to the expected group.
also changing ammo will take between 4 and 20 rounds before you can call a good group. changing lots in the middle of a shoot, may take you about 2 shots to rezero.
i have seen this effect in 3 different 10/22s, and 3 different 22 bolt guns.
it maybe worth the trouble to make a chamber cleaner out of pistol brush. the pistol brush is bent at 90 degrees very close to the brush or on the brush itself. this allows the brush to inserted in the action and the chamber of most semi automatic 22 rifles and is handy when you are have ejection problems and the cases are hanging in the the chamber. this is followed by a piece of week wacker line with a patch.
my limited 30 cal experience has lead me to the conclusion that changing the ammo in the middle of a shoot, you have to spend 1 to 3 shots to rezero the rifle, even something like changing batch lots will change the poi.
Quote from: AR10 on January 30, 2010, 04:03:52 AM
i have started using a new lubricant mo2. much better than graphite, a lot more heat resistant than graphite. seems to do well in both hot and cold environments. my usual application involves using a q-tip with little bit of whale oil or break free. dab the q-tip in the mo2 powder and and apply to the wear surfaces of the gun parts.
Do you have a link to the 'm02' ? Sounds just like what I am looking for but am not sure where its sold
I'm not sure what the m02 is, but I use Liquid Wrench Dry Lubricant.
Get it from Wally World for about $4.
Lubricates well and doesn't leave a messy oil film.
Hope this helps!
The only things I lube are the face of the hammer where the bolt rides against it with a small dab of Plastilube and LSA on the recoil spring guide rod. My rifles can run over 500 rounds with out any FTF of FTE issues.
As to the screws, Loctite makes a product called 'Thread Fixer" for just such repairs.
I'm a newbie both to appleseed and to shooting, but it occurs to me to ask...
If a .22LR is a good training rifle, and the distance is only 25m, then would an air rifle be even better?
The procedures for follow up shots with an air rifle do not readily lend themselves to shooting an AQT. Few are made for multiple shots or use a sling. There is nothing wrong with practising the steps of a shot with one. And heck, we would all miss the powder smoke smell. 25 meters is reaching the limit for most air rifles. Also decent air rifles cost more than low end rifles like the Marlin 795. Cost is a big portion of a successful Liberty Training Rifle concept.
Accurate air rifles get pricey, and the ones that are accurate are almost always single shot.
That being said, we have had youngsters in NY use them. The results aren't real impressive.
Hard to beat a 2-3 MOA .22 (most 10/22's are capable of 2-3 MOA) for Appleseed, when you only have to shoot to a 4 MOA standard.
Don't fixate on better. Good enough is good enough.
Just adding these attachments. I know they are already on the forum, but I couldn't find where to reference, so I am posting them here to direct people to this thread.
I was wondering, Is there any reason to keep the barrel band on a 10/22? does it really add anything? Because I've seen lots of people put a different sling stud on and keep the barrel band on.
Thanks,
Roland
Rifle to rifle there are differences.
Some folks find their barrel band contributes to accuracy issues and remove it resulting in improved groups.
My rifle doesn't seem to know it has the band on it, so I left it alone. No, I don't have the front sling swivel on the band, I used an M14 front sling swivel on the stock.
Try it with and without the band and see if you have group size improvements one way vs. the other. I would not attach my sling to the front band as I'd expect it might affect poi.
I had good luck with Hornady One shot. I used it at the most recent shoot I was at. 30+ mph winds that flipped my mat over more than once. In my prep time I would just shake the sand out of the reciever. I made sure that I cleaned all of the oil out before using it. The other nice thing was that when it came time to clean the gun, I cleaned most of it with a soft brush the junk comes out pretty easy. The gun ran about 200 cci mini mags and 400 Federal bulk with one FTF on the Federal. The only cleaning I did that weekend was a bore snake ran down the barrel twice at the end of the first day.
Shooters often show up with a rifle and no sling or swivels. It's a real handicap for the shooter. I have a quick solution. I made up some front sling swivels that will work on any .22 except a Mannleicher.
I bought a 1 1/2 inch quick link and cut a piece out of an old leather belt. I cut a teardrop shaped hole in the leather that would fit over the front sight with the radius the same as a 10/22 barrel. I sewed the quick link into the folded over end using heavy waxed nylon thread. That thread is supplied with the "Speedy Stitcher".
http://www.cabelas.com/tent-accessories-speedy-stitcher-thread-needles-1.shtml?WT.tsrc=CSE&WT.mc_id=GoogleProductAds&WT.z_mc_id1=745739&rid=40&mr:trackingCode=CE8B9052-F5D2-DF11-82EF-001B21631C34&mr:referralID=NA&mr:adType=pla
Now you have a removable loaner front swivel for a sling. You can make a half dozen of these while listening to the Rifleman Radio Show. I took pictures of the pieces and the finished piece on a 10/22. I could send them to anybody who knows how to post pics on the Appleseed site.
Everybody does listen to the Rifleman Show, right?
Looking for some input from the brain trust here:
Bought 3 new 10/22s from Ruger to set up as LTRs. One of them is the compact model, shorter LOP and forearm, meant for kids or other smaller folks.
I'm ready to put the sling studs on the stock. The question is where? At one extreme, keep them the same distance apart as the regular stock if possible. At the other, keep them displaced inward from the butt plate and fore end the same amount as before, shortening the distance in between.
Anyone out there who has done this - particularly someone of smaller size - with an opinion on where to place them for best results? At 6' 3", my experience isn't very relevant.
My wife has a Butler Creek synthetic stock. I sawed 1 1/8 inches off the butt and put the pad back on. I used the piece I had removed to drill pilot holes in the stock to reattach the pad. I like that butt because it doesn't slip. Wifey is North Country Lady and she likes it.
Now you have a removable loaner front swivel for a sling. You can make a half dozen of these while listening to the Rifleman Radio Show. I took pictures of the pieces and the finished piece on a 10/22. I could send them to anybody who knows how to post pics on the Appleseed site.
[/quote]
Try this for information on how to post pictures. I would like to see an example as it sounds like a great idea. http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=23641.msg183045#msg183045 (http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=23641.msg183045#msg183045)
Have proposed approaching Ruger/TALO Distributing (the organization that had Ruger do the 10-22 Boy Scout Rifle last year) to do a ready-to-use, fully-equipped, Appleseed Training Rifle (for lack of a better name).
Studs, 1.25" swivels, sling, 4 x magazines, Tech sights, straight butt plate, Appleseed information, and a certificate good for FREE (other than any range fees) participation in the rifle's FIRST Appleseed event or weekend.
Everything you need and nothing you don't.
Waiting for AB response to TALO's question concerning Appleseed's ability to promote said rifle. For example, suggest AR15 girl poster could be redone with the ATR (and purchasing information) and redistributed in shoot boxes for all shoots in 2012. If plan goes forward, will request that Ruger include the ATR in their Instructor Purchase Program, giving RHIs a 30% discount from the msrp, whatever that turns out to be.
Submit will be great rifle for participants, who will no longer have to put up with ill-equipped, new-in-box rifles, and for instructors to use as instantly available, and relatively standardized, loaners.
And just to be clear, and accurate, original proposal for the above submitted 16 December, 2011, coming up on one month ago. No pressure - we're all busy, but we've already lost the opportunity to have the rifle included in the 2012 Ruger catalog.
Stay tuned, and
Excelsior,
madMark
Quote from: nyrasgt on January 12, 2012, 11:09:46 PM
Have proposed approaching Ruger/TALO Distributing (the organization that had Ruger do the 10-22 Boy Scout Rifle last year) to do a ready-to-use, fully-equipped, Appleseed Training Rifle (for lack of a better name).
Studs, 1.25" swivels, sling, 4 x magazines, Tech sights, straight butt plate, Appleseed information, and a certificate good for FREE (other than any range fees) participation in the rifle's FIRST Appleseed event or weekend.
Everything you need and nothing you don't.
Waiting for AB response to TALO's question concerning Appleseed's ability to promote said rifle. For example, suggest AR15 girl poster could be redone with the ATR (and purchasing information) and redistributed in shoot boxes for all shoots in 2012. If plan goes forward, will request that Ruger include the ATR in their Instructor Purchase Program, giving RHIs a 30% discount from the msrp, whatever that turns out to be.
Submit will be great rifle for participants, who will no longer have to put up with ill-equipped, new-in-box rifles, and for instructors to use as instantly available, and relatively standardized, loaners.
And just to be clear, and accurate, original proposal for the above submitted 16 December, 2011, coming up on one month ago. No pressure - we're all busy, but we've already lost the opportunity to have the rifle included in the 2012 Ruger catalog.
Stay tuned, and
Excelsior,
madMark
O0 :bow:
Quote from: nyrasgt on January 12, 2012, 11:09:46 PM
Waiting for AB response to TALO's question concerning Appleseed's ability to promote said rifle. For example, suggest AR15 girl poster could be redone with the ATR (and purchasing information) and redistributed in shoot boxes for all shoots in 2012. If plan goes forward, will request that Ruger include the ATR in their Instructor Purchase Program, giving RHIs a 30% discount from the msrp, whatever that turns out to be.
Making sure the AB sees this!
I need to get at least 2 LTR in the next year. This would make my life much easier.
Quote from: Stand on January 13, 2012, 12:19:08 AM
I need to get at least 2 LTR in the next year. This would make my life much easier.
We do have an Appleseeder who is a gunsmith and FFL here in Florida who has been making LTR's. I have used them and they work well. On the carbine model you are stuck with the curved butt plate--at least until Ruger decides differently. I have added a recoil pad/stock extension to mine which makes the stock fit full sized people and solves the slippery butt plate problem. Here is the link: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=15365.0
Send Douglas34474 a message and he can get you set up.
Quote from: techres on January 12, 2012, 11:41:48 PM
Quote from: nyrasgt on January 12, 2012, 11:09:46 PM
Waiting for AB response to TALO's question concerning Appleseed's ability to promote said rifle. For example, suggest AR15 girl poster could be redone with the ATR (and purchasing information) and redistributed in shoot boxes for all shoots in 2012. If plan goes forward, will request that Ruger include the ATR in their Instructor Purchase Program, giving RHIs a 30% discount from the msrp, whatever that turns out to be.
Making sure the AB sees this!
Respectfully, while I like the LTR concept and find the rifles excellent (and fun!) trainers, I believe that the present image is better for Appleseed. It communicates that ultimately a Rifleman (or Riflegirl! :) ) is competent with a real live centerfire
service rifle while at the same time not visually overpowering the unfamiliar or on-the-fence-might-be-persuaded-to-come folks with evil black plastic.
The existing image is I think
perfect in what it communicates. I believe re-shooting it with a .22 - even a nice LTR - would be a loss.
(Besides, it's part of what helped Rafn convince me to come to my first Appleseed. :) )
Quote from: Nero on January 12, 2012, 08:41:03 PM
Looking for some input from the brain trust here:
Bought 3 new 10/22s from Ruger to set up as LTRs. One of them is the compact model, shorter LOP and forearm, meant for kids or other smaller folks.
I'm ready to put the sling studs on the stock. The question is where? At one extreme, keep them the same distance apart as the regular stock if possible. At the other, keep them displaced inward from the butt plate and fore end the same amount as before, shortening the distance in between.
Anyone out there who has done this - particularly someone of smaller size - with an opinion on where to place them for best results? At 6' 3", my experience isn't very relevant.
The sling swivel position is ideally where a person can reach and get some support, shorter, thicker, people benefit from the stud being placed closer to the trigger, while taller, skinnier folks can get a nice low stable position with the swivel stud placed farther forward.
If you were real enthusiastic, drilling several holes on the stock and epoxying in nuts could make a stock with adjustable front stud position.
"If you were real enthusiastic, drilling several holes on the stock and epoxying in nuts could make a stock with adjustable front stud position."
That's what I do, studs are cheap. I'll put one just inside the band (if there is one) and another about 4" back....O.L.
9mm4545
The person is douglas 34474
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=15075.0
Ready made LTR from here on the board.
I purchase as much as I can from a local gunsmith. If we don't support them they will not be there when we need them. It cost me a little more but the advice is well worth it to me.
Quote from: Mark Davis on January 13, 2012, 09:18:28 PM
Quote from: Nero on January 12, 2012, 08:41:03 PM
Looking for some input from the brain trust here:
Bought 3 new 10/22s from Ruger to set up as LTRs. One of them is the compact model, shorter LOP and forearm, meant for kids or other smaller folks.
I'm ready to put the sling studs on the stock. The question is where? At one extreme, keep them the same distance apart as the regular stock if possible. At the other, keep them displaced inward from the butt plate and fore end the same amount as before, shortening the distance in between.
Anyone out there who has done this - particularly someone of smaller size - with an opinion on where to place them for best results? At 6' 3", my experience isn't very relevant.
The sling swivel position is ideally where a person can reach and get some support, shorter, thicker, people benefit from the stud being placed closer to the trigger, while taller, skinnier folks can get a nice low stable position with the swivel stud placed farther forward.
If you were real enthusiastic, drilling several holes on the stock and epoxying in nuts could make a stock with adjustable front stud position.
I ended up splitting the difference. Put the rear stud the standard 2 1/2" in from the butt plate, kept the front one my usual 7 3/4" in front of the mag well. Seems to work well on my wife, who's a foot shorter than I. We'll see how it does in the hands of an actual youth shooter when it gets loaned out - I might just end up with a couple of forward positions.
Old Guide has a recent posting about using quick links and an old leather belt to make sling swivels for rifles without sling swivel studs. Here are the pictures:
Those look great! Looks much more professional than the zip ties. Now where are my old leather belts? :)...O.L.
Thanks. I have since smoothed up the edges of the holes with a utility knife kit.
Has there been any more movement in the talks with TALO about a LTR?
I'd be thrilled to do a "prototype" T&E with them on bob-owens.com similar to what I do there and on ShootingIllustrated.com. It wouldn't be difficult to put a javascript tracking script on the review to gauge interest, and I have a talented photographer friend to make it look sexy.
Quote from: Bob Owens on August 28, 2012, 09:22:21 PM
Has there been any more movement in the talks with TALO about a LTR?
I'd be thrilled to do a "prototype" T&E with them on bob-owens.com similar to what I do there and on ShootingIllustrated.com. It wouldn't be difficult to put a javascript tracking script on the review to gauge interest, and I have a talented photographer friend to make it look sexy.
PM inbound.
QuoteIf a .22LR is a good training rifle, and the distance is only 25m, then would an air rifle be even better?
It's important to understand that while a 22LR is cheap to run and can help you learn most of what you need to know, it can never replicate the recoil and report of a HP, center fire rifle, which is required to shoot to full distance in the great American tradition of the Rifleman. I always counsel students to view their 22 as a stepping stone to a CF rifle.
I just ordered a 32002 this morning. Will it change anything since it already has the BX trigger and the bolt release built in plus the eyes for sling swivels molded in?
Quote from: LDB415 on December 31, 2025, 06:01:57 PMI just ordered a 32002 this morning. Will it change anything since it already has the BX trigger and the bolt release built in plus the eyes for sling swivels molded in?
Realistically, it just means that you only need to buy sling swivels, a loop sling, and some kind of sights to get started with a really nice setup. Get familiar with that setup, go to a clinic, and then you'll know exactly what you want to change on your rifle (if anything).
Quote from: Sim on January 02, 2026, 11:01:49 AMQuote from: LDB415 on December 31, 2025, 06:01:57 PMI just ordered a 32002 this morning. Will it change anything since it already has the BX trigger and the bolt release built in plus the eyes for sling swivels molded in?
Realistically, it just means that you only need to buy sling swivels, a loop sling, and some kind of sights to get started with a really nice setup. Get familiar with that setup, go to a clinic, and then you'll know exactly what you want to change on your rifle (if anything).
That was my thought. I've ordered the Tech-Sights TSR200 sights and adjustment tool which shipped today. I wanted to go with that for 25M partly to learn iron sights in general and partly as they'll most closely resemble my inherited M1 carbine and help me be better with it (hopefully).
Congrats on your choice of rifle and sights!
When you go to put the front sight on the rifle, of course, you have to remove the old sight.
I've made three Liberty Training Rifles (it becomes a bit addictive....). Here's a little something to pass on if you don't already know.
Ruger front sights are mounted very solidly in that dovetail! Take your time, and take care, when removing the front sight. Once out, installing the front sight is easy. But, the front sight steel of a techsight is rather soft. Take care so you don't strip the threads. Blue Loctite is your friend.
For a sling, Appleseed teaches and recommends the 1 1/4" GI cotton sling. Our instruction for sling use centers on this sling. If you have a different sling, we'll work with you on it. We see a lot of students show up with varying types of slings. That's ok. Bring what you have. but if you don't have one yet, I'd highly suggest the GI cotton sling. They're wonderful aids to marksmanship.
In Liberty,
Gus
I had in mind to use this one but I see now it says webbing but not cotton so I guess it isn't the correct material, just correct size and looks good for the rifle. Back to the drawing board.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1029311034?pid=329784
That sling looks pretty cool; get one for Sunday dress, but get one of the GI web/loop slings for utility.
This is what you're looking for, and what we teach around.
GI Loop Sling (https://www.amazon.com/AmmoGarand-Green-Garand-Pattern-Cotton/dp/B072M6WBN4/ref=sr_1_2?crid=3PLINH11EJZPY&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.2UNvCphvGF8zvBfOAYj4-kLfYHZlUo9o5rFaFauaYuZDaYfGBKDnfFGAfO67o8Yk9-ZQilorl2QD9j7LQcxdsz3FX8eQkIcStZVCLks-0O9XXphwN7a6YbLB-ZPPXYztZZKPhst_KOC6aCfbBK9fl_T00qrmIj33wf4zehPzyqwiWlIOEHncg9Na1s6rPNFU93w9V-3ul4ycUnx88rQG9iwmTsjfJ6NNTbiKDCbA0DcxtRJWPf4w_DbYVW_BY4aUBe-BfcXGOQMJGCmTCJ9DwH4luC28jvIl4see5YtrKOQ.wCtGj0ZNincRR9UTfkqfbfp-OMapM_APAW4PwXbt-z8&dib_tag=se&keywords=gi+loop+sling&qid=1767429691&sprefix=gi+loop+sling%2Caps%2C150&sr=8-2)
I'll just get the one off the store on the theory it's definitely the correct sling and buying it and swivels will benefit Appleseed at least a little bit.
There you go.