I qualified a few weeks ago - still carry the patch around with me. I used a nice little Marlin 795 with a decent scope. My next plan was to try qualifying with the 795 and Tech Sights, but I'm afraid the 300 & 400 yard targets are too small for me. So I'm turning to my CZ-455, a bolt action with no iron sights. Scope is mandatory on that model.
Any tips for using a bolt action rifle on the line? I'm already working on throwing the bolt while not losing NPOA. Mag changes should be a breeze once I get used to the placement. Any other tips?
1. Shooters mat
2. keep the mat clean
3. lay the magazines on the mat by your support elbow where you can find them without wasting time looking for them
4. I wouldn't worry about getting the cheek off the stock (if you ever use a centerfire bolt action the bolt throw will force your cheek off the stock anyway) but instead work on getting the bolt operation down smooth and getting your cheek back on the stock in the same place. Start off doing this right (even if it takes more time) and you'll get faster with practice.
For the first and last stages time won't really be an issue for you but practice them anyway as points are points and stage four is lots of points.
If your stage 1 and stage 4 shots are good then you can afford to not get off all ten shots on stages 2 and 3 if that's what it takes to make those shots on those 2 stages hit the sweet spot on the target.
On stage one of the QDAQT, let down to rest every round while cycling the bolt.
(I'm in the process of working the same challenge, so these are "notes in progress". I'm running a right hand bolt as a lefty, and hope to shoot the score in December).
First, the AQT was originally designed for bolt guns (or so I've heard). Centerfire bolt guns, in fact. So its doable.
Second, one big advantage of a bolt gun is that you can work the entire manual of arms in dry fire, so you can get up to speed for both stage 2 and 3 in the back bedroom (or wherever you dry fire). I'm running the timer and working the transitions, and am getting close on the time.
The two things I'm working currently working on is integrating the bolt manipulation into the Rifleman's cadence, and getting muscle memory for putting the trigger elbow back in place and verifying NPOA.
I'm currently running 30min dry fire each evening, 15min seated, 15min prone for stage 2 and 3, and after about a month, things are noticeably improving.
Remember that you can breathe and cycle the bolt at the same time. With a bit of practice you can get fast enough on the bolt that it's nice not to have to wait around on the gas system. Other than that, I agree with George63.
Here's some video fodder to get your juices flowing:
http://youtu.be/WmnO946lcQs
http://youtu.be/SfY899uNOk0
Bolt techniques explained:
http://artoftherifle.blogspot.com/2011/07/bolt-manipulation-in-offhand-position.html
http://artoftherifle.blogspot.com/2011/09/bolt-manipulation-in-sling-supported.html
Quote from: floydf on November 11, 2011, 01:23:44 PM
(I'm in the process of working the same challenge, so these are "notes in progress". I'm running a right hand bolt as a lefty, and hope to shoot the score in December).
...
I'm currently running 30min dry fire each evening, 15min seated, 15min prone for stage 2 and 3, and after about a month, things are noticeably improving.
Wow. "A rifleman persists" I'm betting on you. Hey, if you need inspiration, the sniper Jackson in "Saving Private Ryan" is a lefty. And if you want a decent left handed bolt gun, Savage makes a MkII for you.
One idea if you have to move your head when cycling the bolt- use some Duct Tape cut into 1/4" to 1/2" wide strips to be a tactile 'que' for where your cheek should be. The narrow strips are easier to feel in cold weather. If you're not concerned about the stock, get a Sharpie type marker that's close, but darker in color than the wood for visual ques when replacing the tape. Eventually, your muscle memory will take over in placement issues, but will fade some in 6 or so months.
Good luck in your quest- You will prevail!
Tom
I've shot expert with some bolt guns. The two most important things I do is to keep my support elbow planted, and keep my stock pocketed in my shoulder as I work the bolt. You can twist the rifle sideways away from your head when working the bolt and take your cheek of the stock if necessary to clear the bolt, but leave the butt in your pocket. If your rifle is in the same place in your shoulder and your support elbow stays put, then you should come right back on your NPOA, or darn close. Lots of dry and live fire really helps you come right back to your NPOA after working the bolt. Cadence and not fussing your shot is really important, too. You have to keep a real steady cadence to make time with a bolt gun on stages 2 and 3, but you can do it, even if you don't have stripper clips or detachable mags. I've done it with a K-31 just feeding by hand 5 rounds at a time. And don't sweat it if you don't get all your rounds off... bolt guns tend to be more accurate than semis, so you can make up for it in the slow fire stage!
+1 on what henschman said. If you keep the support elbow planted you can lift the trigger side elbow if need be. It will fall back into place. At least it does for me.
And, a guy showed at the Freeman Maine AS in Sept with a CZ 22 rimfire sporting tech sights on it. There is a pic of it on the AAR.
They are available if you want them.
I scored a 212 with my 10/22 before switching to my 801 Mosberg Plinkster and shot a 217 then a 229. Practice is you friend. As said above keep the rifle on your soldier. The CZ is a much sweeter action than the Mossberg so you should not have a problem getting all ten off on stage 2 and 3. I was able to. Practice double on the 400 yd targets as they count double and NATURAL POINT OF AIM! That was one of my biggest stumbling blocks and once I got it with the bolt every thing else fell into place.
Practice your magazine changes. Do the 2 and 4 shot drills on the black inch squares so you get the mag change and the NPOA shift.
And remember that 7 Fives add up to more than 10 threes.
To insure enough follow through. do not lift your hand to work the bolt until your sights settle back on target.
Like Stand says, If you can only do 8 rounds in the rapid fire stages, make them good!
I qualified with a bolt gun. Marlin XT-22.
The advice above is all good.
Be smooth - practice bolt operation and mag changes in position.
Breathe as you operate the bolt.
Get in your bubble. I found once I was properly focused, I completed the stages with time to spare. Rifleman's cadence works.
I found the things that I read that really helped:
http://www.frfrogspad.com/bolt.htm
Plus good info on Styer scout rifle on his other page
http://books.google.com/books?id=TphJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA35&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false
HAPPY weekend!!! Fisrt as ITT, First "Dangerous Old Men" presentation and 223 out of the lil bolt for a Winter Seed Patch.
Quote from: ChuckS on December 05, 2011, 01:56:25 AM
I qualified with a bolt gun. Marlin XT-22.
The advice above is all good.
Be smooth - practice bolt operation and mag changes in position.
Breathe as you operate the bolt.
Get in your bubble. I found once I was properly focused, I completed the stages with time to spare. Rifleman's cadence works.
I got patched with a bolt gun as well. Find your cadence, that is the key. There is time that can be made up on your transitions, practice it.
Depending on what size mags your shooting, don't be afriad to drop in rounds on an empty mag.
Find a place to dry fire.
Measure the distance of your "firing line" to the wall
Remove all ammo from this room.
Shrink down an AQT to appropriate scale based on distance of the room you are in, then shrink a bit more.
Get a timer, get a friend with a watch, whatever you need to practice under time.
Dry fire the AQT under time constraints with mag changes 3 - 5 times a day.
Ensure you are using proper fundamental (perfect practice makes perfect)
Go to an Appleseed
Take a friend with you
Have them take a friend with them
Have them take a friend with them
(Repeat the last 2 indefinitely)
Shoot the AQT
Realize 210+ on an AQT is the beginning of the journey, not the end.
Pick a new rifle and start over (iron sights, scoped, left handed, right handed, semi, bolt, tube fed, single shot, all stages prone, all stages kneeling, all stages standing, (as many variations with different rifles as possible))
Your dry fire to live fire ratio should be 50 - 1 minimum!
If you need help shrinking down an AQT or how long you get per stage or how the stage is shot, PM me.
Magazine Drills:
For Every Rifle you have, and every rifle you can get your hands on, get 2 magazines.
Ensure there is no ammo in the room.
Get into your sitting position. Build your "nest" the place where you keep magazines during transition stages.
With safeties on, Stand. Get into your sitting position and place the first magazine in your rifle. Dry Fire 1 time and change Magazines. Dry Fire 1 time and change magazines. You should repeat this 10-15 times.
Then stand up and start over. This will increase your speed at getting into position and inserting the first magazine and well as muscle memory of changing magazines.
Do this drill for prone as well. When you can perform this drill blind folded, knowing where your magazines are, where the magazine well is, and where the magazine release is, switch rifles. Repeat with as many rifles as possible.
This drill can and should be practiced with your pistol and holster/spare magazines. Know your equipment.
If you went to work 1 time per month you'd probably not be very good at your job.
If you drove a car 1 time per month you'd probably not be very good at driving.
If you stood up to walk 1 time per month you'd probably not be good at walking.
If you only handle your rifle and equipment 1 day a month......
Justin - thanks for the drill recommendations. As an incentive to practice, a buck goes in the kitty toward the next firearm every dry fire session. I need to work more on the timed stages.
I got an upgrade for the tech sights on my Marlin 795, so I can put smaller apertures in. Seems to help. I just got it zeroed and obliterated a 1/2" target dot at 25 yards. 4 in the circle, 1 "flyer" an inch out. Even with the upgrade to the upgrade I have to shoot where I know the target is for that 400 yard stage. It's...possible. I'm in the market for some glossy orange AQTs...
At some point I'm gonna shoot an Appleseed with a bolt gun, a semi with iron, and a centerfire. I hope to be ready with all 3. It'll be fun to try.
I like the buck in the kitty idea for every dry practice. Great idea.
- ShadowMan
It strikes me that the bolt on my rifle is a little sticky, compared to some of the video I've seen. (Some of those guys truly must have gotten tired of waiting for the gas to cycle the action with semi-autos.) I see a difference beyond the tons of practice they have: their bolts glide, mine kind of grinds. I've got around 500 rounds through it, should be broken in by now, right? Any tips on polishing or lubing the bolt?
OTOH, I do need to breath. My lungs are the limiting factor, not the bolt. I take deep, deliberate breaths and there's plenty of time to run the bolt during a breath. It would still be nice to get that action smoother, though. Maybe double up the rifleman's cadence, two shots on the respiratory pause if I get behind in establishing NPOA or fumble a mag change.
my math may be suspect - up to $2.70 in the kitty :)
Alrighty, I do wonder what kind of rifle it is but, it shouldn't matter. The AQT was
designed to be shot with a bolt action rifle.
QuoteI see a difference beyond the tons of practice they have: their bolts glide, mine kind of grinds. I've got around 500 rounds through it, should be broken in by now, right? Any tips on polishing or lubing the bolt?
Well first off, is it clean? I want to go ahead and define clean. Clean would be the absence of ANYTHING other than metal IE: the way it came in the original box. The rifle should be brought to this state after firing it EVERY TIME. If you shoot 1 round in a day, you clean it to perfection. If you shoot 1000 rounds in a day, you clean it to perfection. No if, ands, or buts.
Next, a light coat of lubricant should be put on any piece of metal that comes into contact with another piece of metal. I stress, light and clean lubricant.
QuoteMaybe double up the rifleman's cadence, two shots on the respiratory pause if I get behind in establishing NPOA or fumble a mag change.
No no no no no no, never, don't even think about it. "Perfect practice makes perfect" This is the sort of thing that creates poor performances and bad habits. 1 shot per 1 breath is fundamental to shooting. You can breath faster or slower to your choosing but, 1 shot per breath always always always.
As far as fumbling a mag change. This should not happen. When you reach for the door knob to open the door to you "fumble the door knob?" When you reach for the car door to open the door do you "fumble the car door"? When you pick up your coffee mug do you miss the mug? Smooth, steady, deliberate, practiced movements. Are you doing the daily mag drills? I'm willing to bet in 5 minutes you can dry practice (no ammo) and insert a magazine and squeeze the trigger, remove that magazine, insert another and squeeze the trigger oh maybe 30 times. You shouldn't be fumbling anything, you should know your equipment, and yes it does take practice. Is 5 minutes of your day worth going from good to great? Wouldn't you like to have the confidence that you are able to do this in the dark under pressure? My family and I sure do appreciate that confidence....
Don't worry about getting behind. If you rush, and shoot in the 3 point area 10 times, that is 30 points.
If you stay steady, and only get off 7 shots but they are in the 5 point area, that is 35 points. I'd take the 7 shots 35 points over the 10 shots 30 points any day. Bottom line, brilliance in fundamentals beats rushed shots.
PMA. Positive mental attitude. You are committed to this, you are able to do this, and you will do it well. It isn't hard, it is clumsy at first like anything else but with a little practice it isn't hard. You can and will succeed. Remember that. Strut your self confidence, see yourself doing it and acheiving great results.
I've never done this with a bolt action .22 rifle (all mine are old and very well used - my newest .22 bolt action is a Win. M52B made in the mid 30's) but on a new .22 conversion kit for the AR15's I polish the rails and bolt before I use them.
I do this by stripping all the oil/lube off the metal with carb. cleaner. When it dries (only takes a minute or two if the weather is warm and dry) I smear some valve lapping compound on the rails and work the bolt rearwards/forward 100 times. I spray all the lapping compound off the rails/bolt with the carb cleaner again and let it dry and then spray it with rem-oil (the carb cleaner strips all the oil/lube of the metal and you need to get it back on there so rust won't ruin it), wipe off the excess and then put a couple/three drops of mobil 1 (I don't get excited about the weight, I use 2W20, 10W30, and 10W40 in my cars/trucks and I just use the left overs from the bottom of the jugs that accumulates after they sit for a few days. There's enough left over mobil 1 in a 5 qt. jug to completely fill one of the little GI oil bottles that comes in the M16 cleaning kits.
The lapping compound removes the parkerized finish from the rails/bolt where ti contacts the rails and polishes the metal surfaces so they slide against each other easier.
If you go this route be sure to take your rifle out of the stock as you don't want carb. cleaner, brake cleaner or lapping compound on your stock.
I've even used the valve grinding compound on one of those S&W sigma pistols and it helped the horrible trigger on that gun considerably. It still wasn't as good as a glock trigger but it was better than before.
On the other hand you could just dryfire 50 to 100 times 3 or 4 days a week and you'll break the rifle in that way to get it to smooth up.
Sorry - I didn't mean to be cryptic about the rifle. It is a CZ-455 American. I have a variable 3x9x50 Bushnell Elite scope on it, which I may switch out for a fixed 4x. I had problems with eye relief in prone, and a rimfire scope may be just the ticket.
I found the bolt was even stickier today after some of the work I did, but with an mp3 of stages 2 and 3 keeping track I was able to shoot around 41-43. Just for grins, I shot stage 4, too. I'm a threat to clean that stage. :) Nice rifle. I probably stripped some of the lube off.
This was from the bench, as my range doesn't allow position shooting under 100 yards. It's not a great simulation, but it is enough good data that I think I'll do fine. Now to find a shoot I can get to in about 3 months....on to dry fire.
I also found I could do decently on stage 4 with the Marlin 795 with iron sights. A smaller aperture seems to help. I think I might be ready with that one, too, with a little more practice! I've already got stage 2 and 3 more or less down with that one.
Thanks so much all of you for the advice and encouragement. It meant something to qualify with the easiest rig around, but it'll mean a little more if I can run a bolt gun or a semi-auto with iron sights.
Try a dry telfon lube on the bolt. Home Depo carries one by DuPont.
Here's a nice page I found while researching this same topic: http://www.frfrogspad.com/bolt.htm Good reading...
I used a Mossberg 340K bolt gun at this weekend's Appleseed (my second), and finally managed to get all the rounds off in the two transition stages. Two things that had been slowing me down were fumbling magazine changes, and short stroking the bolt leading to a feeding problem. I found if I take a deep breath when I retract the bolt, when I exhale the sights drop back on target, if I'm in the Natural Point Of Aim. I wound up shooting 180s-190s on Sunday, up from 130s-140s at my first Appleseed. I'll be working on getting the mag changes smoother, and the position transitions faster before the next one.
Can you keep your aim while you cycle your bolt without losing cheek weld? A cheek riser can help. If your bolt is short enough, it can be done. That keeps you on target between shots. Concentrate on good shots, remember that 7-5 pointers beats 10-3 pointers. Make up the difference on stage 4.
there is tons of great info in this thread. I watched mudcat shoot his bolt action and he is so good with it and fast that it's almost not fair to the AQT when he uses his semi autos lol. I'm going to give it a try one of these days and see how I do.
NPOA getting it, Being able to shift it and check it -is probably the most importand part of doing it with your bolt gun
Smooth magazine changes 2nd
Knowing and working your rilfe is third.
One I just thought of: experience with the AQT and its timing and shot counts.
I easily get off all my shots with time left. It is not as hard as people make it sound. It is a skill.
I had no choice but to figure it out. All my autoloaders were in the hands of other family members. I bought another autoloader and another family member came out. All that left for dear old dad was the brand new boltie. It is a good boltie though! My first 'seed I did not have a proper sling. I managed to take up the slack in that padded POS by wrapping it around my support arm a second time. The plastic fantastic buckle broke on it. I still managed the COF and do not remember being terribly stressed for time but it was a while ago. 'Seed #2 and I had a proper sling and life got so much easier!
A few McDonald's straws has always worked well, as speed loaders, for tube Fed's,
I have had the pleasure of having a DR. on the line workin' a blot action .303,Lefty, he used the trigger hand to work the bolt,xcelent to watch also Martin our Fl, moderator works a blot lefty.
Don't worry if you do not post and I think it's a subject in which you should, i will start your post and tell it My way until you all chime in that's what I do! ;D
I have been rereading this thread and I have to disagree with one point and I think it's just personal preference but you do not have to clean your rifle after every shoot. I usually only clean mine once I start having malfunctions or accuracy drops off. I guess if it's acting gritty then you need to check that out. however I have ran thousands of rounds through my guns with no cleaning and they are still fine.
Quote from: grunt soldier on March 14, 2012, 06:04:12 PM
I have been rereading this thread and I have to disagree with one point and I think it's just personal preference but you do not have to clean your rifle after every shoot. I usually only clean mine once I start having malfunctions or accuracy drops off. I guess if it's acting gritty then you need to check that out. however I have ran thousands of rounds through my guns with no cleaning and they are still fine.
GS the reason for cleaning a rifle after use is so that we don't get near the point where we begin to have malfunctions. As for accuracy you may only get one shot, and that should be taken from a cold clean bore, just as it would in hunting for example!
Appleseeds bring out the malfunctions like nothing else. Hundreds of rounds on Saturday, repeated on Sunday. Much of the ammunition we see is typically 'dirty' and compounds the problem. A Rifle should be cleaned after use.
People are tired after a long day, but, I believe they should clean and lube the rifle on Saturday evening before returning on Sunday. Some may even need to be cleaned during the shoot.
Quote from: GEmanuel on March 14, 2012, 07:18:40 PM
Quote from: grunt soldier on March 14, 2012, 06:04:12 PM
I have been rereading this thread and I have to disagree with one point and I think it's just personal preference but you do not have to clean your rifle after every shoot. I usually only clean mine once I start having malfunctions or accuracy drops off. I guess if it's acting gritty then you need to check that out. however I have ran thousands of rounds through my guns with no cleaning and they are still fine.
GS the reason for cleaning a rifle after use is so that we don't get near the point where we begin to have malfunctions. As for accuracy you may only get one shot, and that should be taken from a cold clean bore, just as it would in hunting for example!
Appleseeds bring out the malfunctions like nothing else. Hundreds of rounds on Saturday, repeated on Sunday. Much of the ammunition we see is typically 'dirty' and compounds the problem. A Rifle should be cleaned after use.
People are tired after a long day, but, I believe they should clean and lube the rifle on Saturday evening before returning on Sunday. Some may even need to be cleaned during the shoot.
I can respect that opinion. I have had better luck and accuracy keeping it semi dirty until I notice a loss in accuracy (usually doesn't occur until 600 plus rounds) there is debates about this all the time on a lot of forums. to each there own but I understand what your getting at.
At 600 rounds you can clean it saturday night or after the second AQT Sunday. YMMV
Quote from: Stand on March 14, 2012, 11:42:44 PM
At 600 rounds you can clean it saturday night or after the second AQT Sunday. YMMV
yeah I guess my mileage does vary. I have one 10-22 with over 2k rounds through it and hasn't had a malfunction yet or anything done other than wiping the bolt and receiver down, I got a AR with more rounds than that through it, same thing, I shot rifleman with the 10-22 at my last shoot at a 232 or so. Like I said to each there own. this has been debated on many forums one of the bigger being snipershide and you will have varying people with different results. my results have been best not cleaning on a regular. it keeps the rifle consistent for me. if you want to clean and scrub yours on a regular, that is fine also.
When writing of cleaning, no one specifies if they are cleaning the bore or the action or both.
My opinion, with .22 lr the bore does not need a lot of cleaning.
The action is another story, especially when fired in windy conditions, with the rifle, bolt open spending time on the ground.
Throw in a little dust moving, and the need to clean the action ramps up.
lol good points sir. very true we should be more specific. I'm mainly talking about the bore. I never run anything through the barrel until I notice a accuracy drop off. and with the rest of the rifle. I don't do much if the rifle is running right. if it's giving me any problems it gets a solid cleaning and that usually fixes anything. if it's been really windy and we were in the dirt I will give it a wipe down and lube up but if my rifle is running right I leave it be for the most part.
With my particular bolt-action Mossberg, I've noticed that it seems to take 50-60 rounds through a freshly cleaned bore before the groups settle down and tighten up. Or it may just be that *I* need to shoot 50-60 rounds before I settle down and start shooting better groups. I shoot mostly 40gr. lead standard velocity through it, and I've fired at least 400 rounds between cleanings of the bore with no noticeable effect on accuracy.
No one, and most certainly my wife, has ever accused me of being obsessed with keeping things clean. However, I always clean my rifles of any type of action after every shooting session. I believe a rifle which has been cleaned will function more reliably. John Adams said we cannot insure success but we can deserve it. If I have a fail to feed or fail to extract during a transition, I at least want the comfort of knowing I did everything I could to prevent it.
Quote from: Shooter30-06 on March 19, 2012, 05:20:21 PM
I at least want the comfort of knowing I did everything I could to prevent it.
O0 O0 O0
About the cleaning thing....
Running a Boresnake every couple of hundred rounds isn't too difficult and keeps things running pretty well for me.
What I HATE is when the Bolt and or Trigger start feeling gritty.
Good old Remington Gold tends to bring that on.
My dad taught me 50 years ago if I took a rifle out and didn't shoot it, I at least wiped the salty finger prints off it. If I shot it one time, it got a full cleaning before being put away. It's served me well. I've noticed new rifles (as in low round count) the bore will be dirtier that older more broken in rifles with any given round count. I now use bore polish on any new rifle to speed up that break in process and I'm amazed how clean they are even after 400-500 rounds between cleaning....O.L.
My approach:
Corrosive ammo = clean.
Non-Corrosive ammo = clean occasionally.
Rifle that will not run without cleaning every trip to the range = sell.
Especially with the 22's, they run dirty and have far more consistency for me.
My other rifles are battle rifles and need to work in any condition. They do not get abused, but they do not get babied either. Usually add lube/clp as needed.
Quote from: The Wolfhound on March 13, 2012, 12:09:40 AM
Can you keep your aim while you cycle your bolt without losing cheek weld? A cheek riser can help. If your bolt is short enough, it can be done. That keeps you on target between shots. Concentrate on good shots, remember that 7-5 pointers beats 10-3 pointers. Make up the difference on stage 4.
I can now, the Shoot Boss helped by making me a cheek riser out of a piece of foam and a few feet of camo tape. Now my cheek settles in with the top of my transition bifocals at the proper eye relief behind the scope, and I can hold on the target for follow-through, working the bolt with two fingers. With bifocals, I found that I had to move my head up and down to reacquire the reticle properly, otherwise it was either blurry, or I got a double vision view from looking through the transition line on my glasses.
Quote from: oladcock on March 19, 2012, 07:55:47 PM
My dad taught me 50 years ago if I took a rifle out and didn't shoot it, I at least wiped the salty finger prints off it. If I shot it one time, it got a full cleaning before being put away. It's served me well. I've noticed new rifles (as in low round count) the bore will be dirtier that older more broken in rifles with any given round count. I now use bore polish on any new rifle to speed up that break in process and I'm amazed how clean they are even after 400-500 rounds between cleaning....O.L.
Bore-Weasels are a saving grace on many rifles; oddly the Brits introduced them in the early cartridge era of our Civil War, or War of Northern Aggression depending on where you live. Running a brush through a 22 LR is a quick way to wear out the rifling on most due to the mfg. process, cleaning the internal mechanisms is a
must.
There are a number of sprays and spray solvents that do this nicely; everyone has their own favorite, so I won't get into that here.
Great tips and ideas all!
Thank you all!Tom
All the procedures make perfect sense as stated with my Marlin 795, but I'll need to adapt some things for my bolt action CZ-455.
What's the correct procedure for the position transitions with a bolt action rifle? I can't flip the safety on with the bolt back, but bolt back strikes me as "safer" than bolt forward, safety on. Mine uses removable mags so it's easy to establish that it is unloaded. (though it does not have a magazine safety - round in the chamber, bolt down, it'll shoot if I pull the trigger), so that chamber flag is if anything more important than with my semi-auto.
I want to practice the way I'll shoot at my next Appleseed, the way the shoot boss will require me to do it.
In other news, dry fire practice is going well. I can get 10 quality "shots" off in the time alloted more times than not. Stage 1 should help a little, and Stage 4 a lot. Thanks for all the tips! Now if April 21 would hurry up and get here...
That's up to the shoot boss.
Quote from: slim on March 21, 2012, 04:35:54 PM
That's up to the shoot boss.
Yup, and you can always contact the SB ahead of time.
Quote from: jimmythegeek on March 21, 2012, 03:58:09 PM
All the procedures make perfect sense as stated with my Marlin 795, but I'll need to adapt some things for my bolt action CZ-455.
What's the correct procedure for the position transitions with a bolt action rifle? I can't flip the safety on with the bolt back, but bolt back strikes me as "safer" than bolt forward, safety on. Mine uses removable mags so it's easy to establish that it is unloaded. (though it does not have a magazine safety - round in the chamber, bolt down, it'll shoot if I pull the trigger), so that chamber flag is if anything more important than with my semi-auto.
Sounds to me like you answered your own question. The line command calls for "safeties on." For you to switch on your safety, you have to close your bolt. So you close your bolt on an empty chamber and switch on your safety.
Then when you get the "Fire" command, you drop into position, load a magazine, switch off the safety, and rack the bolt before engaging your target.
Not seeing a problem here. You'll just have one extra step. ;)
Well, here's a definite gray area.
I am of the mind that it's OK for bolt guns that the safety will not work with the bolt open to transition with the safety off and the bolt open. We get one choice or the other, bolt open/safety off or bolt closed/safety on.
It's a no-brainer (AKA, common sense) for me, bolt open, safety off.
"On Bolt rifles, ensure the bolt is back and the magazine well is empty. There is no need to have the safety on."
RWVA Instructor Manual v5.0, page 19
This is in the Safe Rifle section, but would it not apply here?
UL
I believe the reference you quote is for a "safe rifle" which by definition is grounded with no one touching the rifle. Transitions would not fall under this provision therefor.
I do not feel that the bolt should be closed until the shooter has acquired his SHFs, and is ready to establish NPOA at least. Based on the particular stage being engaged. In fact all bolts (if possible based on the rifle)should really be open until then as it makes it much easier for the LSO, RSO, LB etc to see that the rifle is as safe as it can be with a shooter transitioning with it. In addition with the bolt open, after the magazine is inserted the forward stroke of the bolt will pick up a round and chamber it. Otherwise the bolt must manually be pulled to the rear first. Not a big deal, but, the stage is timed. Of course the chamber flag had been removed during the preparation period.
Perhaps this might be something to consider/clarify in the review of the IM.
OK, at least temporarily, let's have them make the transition with the bolt open and the safety on if possible. If not possible to have the bolt open and the safety on, then they should have the bolt open.
The priority is to ensure the chamber is empty (by an open bolt and the mag out). The safety on is secondary to that.
There will be a 100% official answer on this shortly.
I guess I'm still not seeing the problem.
There is nothing proscribing against transitioning with the bolt closed. The vast majority of shooters already do this. They should have been doing dry practice in their prep period, and the line command is
not "bolts open, safeties on, stand," it's just the latter two.
The Safe Rifle guidelines don't apply here because we're not dealing with an unattended rifle. After all, you cannot "Step Back" and then do a transition. The only safety processes that apply here are:
and
- The Line Boss command "safeties on, stand"
Nothing about those five guidelines says anything about the bolt. So long as your muzzle is in a safe direction, you haven't Loaded since you haven't gotten a Load command, your finger is off the trigger since your sights aren't on the target, and you're making sure those around you are following the safety rules, you're golden.
In this particular case, the shooter "can" engage the safety, he merely has to close the bolt first. So go ahead and close the bolt, and then engage the safety. Simple.
There are edge cases, of course, of rifles that don't have a manual safety, or maybe rifles that can't engage the safety without a chambered round. In such cases the shooter should work with the Line Boss for an appropriate alternate safety measure. For instance, keeping the action open until after the transition. On my line I'm satisfied with that in just about every case.
If a truly weird rifle ever shows up that
can't be made safe for transition to the Line Boss's satisfaction, the only choice is to not do the transition. I haven't run into anything like this yet.
Looking forward to the official explanation, but I believe this case is pretty simple.
I'll take an open bolt over the reliance of a mechanical device any day. Much easier to see an open bolt over an "on" safety also.
Quote from: Stand on March 22, 2012, 12:28:29 AM
I'll take an open bolt over the reliance of a mechanical device any day. Much easier to see an open bolt over an "on" safety also.
That works fine until you've got a dozen new shooters on the line with stock Ruger 10/22's, every single one of them fumbling to lock back and release their bolts rather than paying attention to their muzzles.
There is no requirement for the instructors to actually see the students follow the "Safeties On" command. Heck, once in a while I freeze them in standing and give them a pop inspection to keep them on their toes, particularly if it's a relatively inattentive group. Seems to work better...
Rocket man,
I think the discussion over safeties vs open bolts here has become specific to bolt action rifles and not standard semi-autos.
With a semi, the safety option is far better - hand down. That is true especially with a 10/22 which you are hoping they have all released and dropped before the prep period ends.
We are not talking about that. We are talking about bolt action rifles only. With them you end up with a counteracting manual of arms.
Either the safety is on and the bolt is closed and unloaded which puts them behind in stages two and three. Or they have the bolt open and safety off which allows them to still be perfectly safe and faster into action.
Personally as a SB I am fine with open bolt and happier that way for a bolt rifle. On some rifles it is the only real option as I am not going to ask the mosin owner to fight taking off the safety before opening the bolt, fighting the stripper clip, closing the bolt and taking the only shot of ten that they are going to get off in 55 seconds.
The same for the cricket owner, etc. That is not productive and really not necessary.
Leave the ammo on the mat, stand with your bolt wide open, and transition that way to the mat.
The procedure is designed around 99.9% of the rifles on the line. For the other .1% we can use our rifleman skills of adaptation and still keep our layers of safety perfectly intact.
But the exception is only to the boltguns as the shoot boss sees fit...
Quote from: techres on March 22, 2012, 01:05:30 AM
Personally as a SB I am fine with open bolt and happier that way for a bolt rifle. On some rifles it is the only real option as I am not going to ask the mosin owner to fight taking off the safety before opening the bolt, fighting the stripper clip, closing the bolt and taking the only shot of ten that they are going to get off in 55 seconds.
I understand, and I'm in agreement with you. Had lots of Mosins and Crickets on my lines... Similarly, while I can enage the safety on my M1917 with the bolt open, it's not really supposed to do that.
Nonetheless, I wanted to clarify that substituting an open bolt in place of mechanical safeties isn't done to make the transition safer. We have plenty of other methods to ensure that.
The shooter in this case is welcome to ask the Line Boss if open bolt is OK, and if I was that Line Boss I'd be fine with it (or even suggest it). Don't think any revisiting of the safety rules is needed here.
Quote from: George63 on November 11, 2011, 12:13:14 PM
...my remedy is to rock my body/rifle towards the trigger hand while working the bolt then fall back into the relaxed position retaining MPOA. I practice this way with the rimfire also even though it is not really needed.
I wanted to thank you George - I'm a relative newbie when it comes to the bolt action, but my DH almost made Rifleman with the Marlin Bolt action last month - so I've gotta' keep up.
Any suggestions when Sitting? I find cycling the bolt difficult from that position. I'd like to get more efficient before moving up to Centerfire.
OK, the official decision is made.
Semi-auto rifles, bolts closed or open, but must have the safety on. The only reason we want to allow bolts closed here is the potential problems with locking back 10/22's, plus the simple fact that some rifles can't be locked back.
Bolt actions, the bolt must be open, safety on or off, preferably on. Also applies to lever actions.
There's the safest way to do it.
And, so we all know, several MI's have discussed this. It's official, and will be integrated into the upcoming Instructor Manual revision.
I qualified on my first Appleseed with a bolt gun. But I also have a lot of experience with it as well. You can work your bolt without losing your sight picture but it's very difficult using a sling. I use to know a couple of army snipers that were left handed and used a right handed bolt, the two I knew really liked it because they didn't have to take their hand away from the trigger group but we also use bipods. So I don't know how it would be trying to work your bolt with a sling probably a bit more difficult.
I learned quite a bit at the Ladyseed over in Sparta from CastleMountain:
Once cheek weld/NPOA is achieved, the main movement is a "flick of the wrist" forward movement with middle finger pull back on the bolt btwn each round (prone/sitting). Because the Marlin is older ('75?) - the action needs some work (which he nicely explained exactly how to do). 1 MOA was achieved after that, but I'm still needing practice on the movements/magazine changes. I've 7 shots per magazine and found myself "expecting" the 10.
I'll just need to work more (and find a less expensive price for the .22 Magnum Rounds. Least expensive is $15.50 per 50)
Thanks.
Mutti, I suggest getting a rifle as near identical as possible to your 22 Mag, but in 22 LR. The ammo cost 1/10th as much. 1000 rounds or so of difference in ammo price would pay for a rifle, for the most part.
And, yes, I'm also in a very similar situation. Got a Savage bolt gun, 93R17, 17 HMR. Ammo costs about the same or a little more than your 22 Mags do. I love the rifle, and am keeping it (the 17 works nicely on small to mid sized varmints here). A Savage Mark II near identical to that 93R17 is on my short list of acquisitions (and, I do own several 22's, including a bolt action target rifle, Remington 513T).
Thanks Nickle
We've a number of .22s (Cricket(s), Ruger(s), Marlin(s), Savage(s)), but the Bolt Marlin was "next left" in the gun cabinet so that's what I wanted to familiarize myself with. The Garand is after that - so that should be fun!
Great news - if I run into someone on the trail with a bolt action, I'll be able to help them out a bit. Never hurts to keep up/learn new skills.
Thanks everyone!
Need something clarified here.
I've been told that a shooter using a bolty DOESN'T have to do a mag change on stages 2 & 3. They can load 10 in 1 mag.
True or False?
Quote from: VietVet on April 11, 2012, 01:11:19 PM
Need something clarified here.
I've been told that a shooter using a bolty DOESN'T have to do a mag change on stages 2 & 3. They can load 10 in 1 mag.
True or False?
The original military course of fire was 5 and 5. As originally designed the course was done with bolt actions. With the introduction of the M! the load procedure went to 2 and 8. A mag change is required of all magazine fed rifles except tube fed. With the tube fed rifle the shooter loads 11, shoots two, ejects one, and then shoots the remaining eight. The extra round is to account for the mag change which they can not do safely or in a timely manner. I have had bolt rifles where we did 5 and 5 because of magazine limitations, but the change was still required.
False.
Quote from: VietVet on April 11, 2012, 01:11:19 PM
Need something clarified here.
I've been told that a shooter using a bolty DOESN'T have to do a mag change on stages 2 & 3. They can load 10 in 1 mag.
True or False?
Quote from: Mutti on April 11, 2012, 12:28:39 PM
Never hurts to keep up/learn new skills.
when you get it down with the rimfire come up north and try it with the magazine fed bolt centerfire, first I set up a .308 and that slapped down the score too far, so now I am using a bolt .223 for KD and can make it about 50/50 Will do the tour come summer and if we will both be at a shoot I will bring it with
Quote from: George63 on April 11, 2012, 04:02:50 PM
Quote from: Mutti on April 11, 2012, 12:28:39 PM
Never hurts to keep up/learn new skills.
when you get it down with the rimfire come up north and try it with the magazine fed bolt centerfire, first I set up a .308 and that slapped down the score too far, so now I am using a bolt .223 for KD and can make it about 50/50 Will do the tour come summer and if we will both be at a shoot I will bring it with
Now THAT would be a home made Bacon earning event! (Or cheese, or goat sausage). I look forward to it!
Yup, mag change is required on Stages 2 & 3 for all rifles. Now, the rifle the AQT was designed around is the 1903 Springfield, not the M1. "Mag changes" (reloading with stripper clips in this case) were required with the Springfield.
It became "2 & 8" because the Army didn't issue 5 round en-blocs for the M1, so they adapted from "5 & 5" to "2 & 8".
Bear in mind that the AQT we do at 25 is an adaptation from KD, and when doing KD, we use 1 target, like the Army did.
Hey George63,
What rifles are you using? I have been looking at the Mosberg MVP in .223 but wanted to talk to someone that has put it through its paces.
http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=46§ion=products
For the .308 is it the Ruger Scout, TC Warlord or other?
Thanks,
Stand
On the last AQT I shot with it, second to last of the day. (I wanted to shoot the last one with my Marlin 795 with iron sights.) I felt it was a quality AQT, but not great. Turns out it was good enough.
Thanks to all the Appleseed instructors, and all the folks in this thread. You helped me soooo much. :bow:
Centerfire and iron sights coming up next.
Quote from: SSG Platz on April 11, 2012, 12:31:07 AM
I qualified on my first Appleseed with a bolt gun. But I also have a lot of experience with it as well. You can work your bolt without losing your sight picture but it's very difficult using a sling. I use to know a couple of army snipers that were left handed and used a right handed bolt, the two I knew really liked it because they didn't have to take their hand away from the trigger group but we also use bipods. So I don't know how it would be trying to work your bolt with a sling probably a bit more difficult.
count me in as a southpaw who prefers shooting on a righty bolt gun as well. Unless your shooting notch sights with a very short sight radius your simply not going to be able to maintain a sight picture. Maintain a cheek weld yes with practice, keep your sight focus also maybe wwith practice, but your not going to be able to stay on target during your bolt work.