tips for qualifying with a bolt action rifle

[jimmythegeek]

I qualified a few weeks ago - still carry the patch around with me.  I used a nice little Marlin 795 with a decent scope.  My next plan was to try qualifying with the 795 and Tech Sights, but I'm afraid the 300 & 400 yard targets are too small for me.  So I'm turning to my CZ-455, a bolt action with no iron sights.  Scope is mandatory on that model. 

Any tips for using a bolt action rifle on the line?  I'm already working on throwing the bolt while not losing NPOA.  Mag changes should be a breeze once I get used to the placement.  Any other tips?

[Old Dog]

1.  Shooters mat
2.  keep the mat clean
3.  lay the magazines on the mat by your support elbow where you can find them without wasting time looking for them
4.  I wouldn't worry about getting the cheek off the stock (if you ever use a centerfire bolt action the bolt throw will force your cheek off the stock anyway) but instead work on getting the bolt operation down smooth and getting your cheek back on the stock in the same place.  Start off doing this right (even if it takes more time) and you'll get faster with practice.

For the first and last stages time won't really be an issue for you but practice them anyway as points are points and stage four is lots of points.

If your stage 1 and stage 4 shots are good then you can afford to not get off all ten shots on stages 2 and 3 if that's what it takes to make those shots on those 2 stages hit the sweet spot on the target.

[SavageShootr]

On stage one of the QDAQT, let down to rest every round while cycling the bolt.

[floydf]

(I'm in the process of working the same challenge, so these are "notes in progress".  I'm running a right hand bolt as a lefty, and hope to shoot the score in December).

First, the AQT was originally designed for bolt guns (or so I've heard).  Centerfire bolt guns, in fact.  So its doable.

Second, one big advantage of a bolt gun is that you can work the entire manual of arms in dry fire, so you can get up to speed for both stage 2 and 3 in the back bedroom (or wherever you dry fire).  I'm running the timer and working the transitions, and am getting close on the time.

The two things I'm working currently working on is integrating the bolt manipulation into the Rifleman's cadence, and getting muscle memory for putting the trigger elbow back in place and verifying NPOA.

I'm currently running 30min dry fire each evening, 15min seated, 15min prone for stage 2 and 3, and after about a month, things are noticeably improving.

[tdow]

Remember that you can breathe and cycle the bolt at the same time.  With a bit of practice you can get fast enough on the bolt that it's nice not to have to wait around on the gas system.  Other than that, I agree with George63.

Here's some video fodder to get your juices flowing:

http://youtu.be/WmnO946lcQs

http://youtu.be/SfY899uNOk0

Bolt techniques explained:

http://artoftherifle.blogspot.com/2011/07/bolt-manipulation-in-offhand-position.html

http://artoftherifle.blogspot.com/2011/09/bolt-manipulation-in-sling-supported.html

[jimmythegeek]

(I'm in the process of working the same challenge, so these are "notes in progress".  I'm running a right hand bolt as a lefty, and hope to shoot the score in December).

...

I'm currently running 30min dry fire each evening, 15min seated, 15min prone for stage 2 and 3, and after about a month, things are noticeably improving.

Wow.  "A rifleman persists"  I'm betting on you.  Hey, if you need inspiration, the sniper Jackson in "Saving Private Ryan" is a lefty.   And if you want a decent left handed bolt gun, Savage makes a MkII for you. 

[desertrat144]

One idea if you have to move your head when cycling the bolt- use some Duct Tape cut into 1/4" to 1/2" wide strips to be a tactile 'que' for where your cheek should be.  The narrow strips are easier to feel in cold weather.  If you're not concerned about the stock, get a Sharpie type marker that's close, but darker in color than the wood for visual ques when replacing the tape.  Eventually, your muscle memory will take over in placement issues, but will fade some in 6 or so months.

Good luck in your quest- You will prevail!

Tom

[henschman]

I've shot expert with some bolt guns.  The two most important things I do is to keep my support elbow planted, and keep my stock pocketed in my shoulder as I work the bolt.  You can twist the rifle sideways away from your head when working the bolt and take your cheek of the stock if necessary to clear the bolt, but leave the butt in your pocket.  If your rifle is in the same place in your shoulder and your support elbow stays put, then you should come right back on your NPOA, or darn close.  Lots of dry and live fire really helps you come right back to your NPOA after working the bolt.  Cadence and not fussing your shot is really important, too.  You have to keep a real steady cadence to make time with a bolt gun on stages 2 and 3, but you can do it, even if you don't have stripper clips or detachable mags.  I've done it with a K-31 just feeding by hand 5 rounds at a time.  And don't sweat it if you don't get all your rounds off... bolt guns tend to be more accurate than semis, so you can make up for it in the slow fire stage!

[TOMINCT]

 +1 on what henschman said. If you keep the support elbow planted you can lift the trigger side elbow if need be. It will fall back into place. At least it does for me.

And, a guy showed at the Freeman Maine AS  in Sept with a CZ 22 rimfire sporting tech sights on it. There is a pic of it on the AAR.

They are available if you want them.

[Charles McKinley]

I scored a 212 with my 10/22 before switching to my 801 Mosberg Plinkster and shot a 217 then a 229.  Practice is you friend.  As said above keep the rifle on your soldier.  The CZ is a much sweeter action than the Mossberg so you should not have a problem getting all ten off on stage 2 and 3.  I was able to.  Practice double on the 400 yd targets as they count double and NATURAL POINT OF AIM!  That was one of my biggest stumbling blocks and once I got it with the bolt every thing else fell into place.

Practice your magazine changes.  Do the 2 and 4 shot drills on the black inch squares so you get the mag change and the NPOA shift.

And remember that 7  Fives add up to more than 10 threes.

[Mark Davis]

To insure enough follow through. do not lift your hand to work the bolt until your sights settle back on target.
Like Stand says, If you can only do 8 rounds in the rapid fire stages, make them good!

[ChuckS]

I qualified with a bolt gun. Marlin XT-22.
The advice above is all good.
Be smooth - practice bolt operation and mag changes in position.
Breathe as you operate the bolt.
Get in your bubble. I found once I was properly focused, I completed the stages with time to spare. Rifleman's cadence works.

[Charles McKinley]

I found the things that I read that really helped:

http://www.frfrogspad.com/bolt.htm
Plus good info on Styer scout rifle on his other page

http://books.google.com/books?id=TphJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA35&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false


HAPPY weekend!!!  Fisrt as ITT, First "Dangerous Old Men" presentation and 223 out of the lil bolt for a Winter Seed Patch.

[citation04]

I qualified with a bolt gun. Marlin XT-22.
The advice above is all good.
Be smooth - practice bolt operation and mag changes in position.
Breathe as you operate the bolt.
Get in your bubble. I found once I was properly focused, I completed the stages with time to spare. Rifleman's cadence works.

I got patched with a bolt gun as well. Find your cadence, that is the key. There is time that can be made up on your transitions, practice it.

Depending on what size mags your shooting, don't be afriad to drop in rounds on an empty mag.

[Justin]

Find a place to dry fire.
Measure the distance of your "firing line" to the wall
Remove all ammo from this room.
Shrink down an AQT to appropriate scale based on distance of the room you are in, then shrink a bit more.
Get a timer, get a friend with a watch, whatever you need to practice under time.
Dry fire the AQT under time constraints with mag changes 3 - 5 times a day.
Ensure you are using proper fundamental (perfect practice makes perfect)

Go to an Appleseed
Take a friend with you
Have them take a friend with them
Have them take a friend with them
(Repeat the last 2 indefinitely)

Shoot the AQT
Realize 210+ on an AQT is the beginning of the journey, not the end.
Pick a new rifle and start over (iron sights, scoped, left handed, right handed, semi, bolt, tube fed, single shot, all stages prone, all stages kneeling, all stages standing, (as many variations with different rifles as possible))

Your dry fire to live fire ratio should be 50 - 1 minimum!

If you need help shrinking down an AQT or how long you get per stage or how the stage is shot, PM me.

[Justin]

Magazine Drills:

For Every Rifle you have, and every rifle you can get your hands on, get 2 magazines.
Ensure there is no ammo in the room.

Get into your sitting position. Build your "nest" the place where you keep magazines during transition stages.

With safeties on, Stand. Get into your sitting position and place the first magazine in your rifle. Dry Fire 1 time and change Magazines. Dry Fire 1 time and change magazines. You should repeat this 10-15 times.

Then stand up and start over. This will increase your speed at getting into position and inserting the first magazine and well as muscle memory of changing magazines.

Do this drill for prone as well. When you can perform this drill blind folded, knowing where your magazines are, where the magazine well is, and where the magazine release is, switch rifles. Repeat with as many rifles as possible.

This drill can and should be practiced with your pistol and holster/spare magazines. Know your equipment.

If you went to work 1 time per month you'd probably not be very good at your job.
If you drove a car 1 time per month you'd probably not be very good at driving.
If you stood up to walk 1 time per month you'd probably not be good at walking.
If you only handle your rifle and equipment 1 day a month......

[jimmythegeek]

Justin - thanks for the drill recommendations.  As an incentive to practice, a buck goes in the kitty toward the next firearm every dry fire session.  I need to work more on the timed stages.

I got an upgrade for the tech sights on my Marlin 795, so I can put smaller apertures in.  Seems to help.  I just got it zeroed and obliterated a 1/2" target dot at 25 yards.  4 in the circle, 1 "flyer" an inch out.  Even with the upgrade to the upgrade I have to shoot where I know the target is for that 400 yard stage.  It's...possible.  I'm in the market for some glossy orange AQTs...

At some point I'm gonna shoot an Appleseed with a bolt gun, a semi with iron, and a centerfire.  I hope to be ready with all 3.  It'll be fun to try.

[George Hacker]

I like the buck in the kitty idea for every dry practice.  Great idea.

- ShadowMan

[jimmythegeek]

It strikes me that the bolt on my rifle is a little sticky, compared to some of the video I've seen.  (Some of those guys truly must have gotten tired of waiting for the gas to cycle the action with semi-autos.)  I see a difference beyond the tons of practice they have: their bolts glide, mine kind of grinds.  I've got around 500 rounds through it, should be broken in by now, right? Any tips on polishing or lubing the bolt?

OTOH, I do need to breath.  My lungs are the limiting factor, not the bolt.  I take deep, deliberate breaths and there's plenty of time to run the bolt during a breath.  It would still be nice to get that action smoother, though.  Maybe double up the rifleman's cadence, two shots on the respiratory pause if I get behind in establishing NPOA or fumble a mag change. 

my math may be suspect - up to $2.70 in the kitty

[Justin]

Alrighty, I do wonder what kind of rifle it is but, it shouldn't matter. The AQT was designed to be shot with a bolt action rifle.

I see a difference beyond the tons of practice they have: their bolts glide, mine kind of grinds.  I've got around 500 rounds through it, should be broken in by now, right? Any tips on polishing or lubing the bolt?

Well first off, is it clean? I want to go ahead and define clean. Clean would be the absence of ANYTHING other than metal IE: the way it came in the original box. The rifle should be brought to this state after firing it EVERY TIME. If you shoot 1 round in a day, you clean it to perfection. If you shoot 1000 rounds in a day, you clean it to perfection. No if, ands, or buts.

Next, a light coat of lubricant should be put on any piece of metal that comes into contact with another piece of metal. I stress, light and clean lubricant.

Maybe double up the rifleman's cadence, two shots on the respiratory pause if I get behind in establishing NPOA or fumble a mag change.

No no no no no no, never, don't even think about it. "Perfect practice makes perfect" This is the sort of thing that creates poor performances and bad habits. 1 shot per 1 breath is fundamental to shooting. You can breath faster or slower to your choosing but, 1 shot per breath always always always.

As far as fumbling a mag change. This should not happen. When you reach for the door knob to open the door to you "fumble the door knob?" When you reach for the car door to open the door do you "fumble the car door"? When you pick up your coffee mug do you miss the mug? Smooth, steady, deliberate, practiced movements. Are you doing the daily mag drills? I'm willing to bet in 5 minutes you can dry practice (no ammo) and insert a magazine and squeeze the trigger, remove that magazine, insert another and squeeze the trigger oh maybe 30 times. You shouldn't be fumbling anything, you should know your equipment, and yes it does take practice. Is 5 minutes of your day worth going from good to great? Wouldn't you like to have the confidence that you are able to do this in the dark under pressure? My family and I sure do appreciate that confidence....

Don't worry about getting behind. If you rush, and shoot in the 3 point area 10 times, that is 30 points.
If you stay steady, and only get off 7 shots but they are in the 5 point area, that is 35 points. I'd take the 7 shots 35 points over the 10 shots 30 points any day. Bottom line, brilliance in fundamentals beats rushed shots.

PMA. Positive mental attitude. You are committed to this, you are able to do this, and you will do it well. It isn't hard, it is clumsy at first like anything else but with a little practice it isn't hard. You can and will succeed. Remember that. Strut your self confidence, see yourself doing it and acheiving great results.

[Old Dog]

I've never done this with a bolt action .22 rifle (all mine are old and very well used - my newest .22 bolt action is a Win. M52B made in the mid 30's) but on a new .22 conversion kit for the AR15's I polish the rails and bolt before I use them.

I do this by stripping all the oil/lube off the metal with carb. cleaner.  When it dries (only takes a minute or two if the weather is warm and dry) I smear some valve lapping compound on the rails and work the bolt rearwards/forward 100 times.  I spray all the lapping compound off the rails/bolt with the carb cleaner again and let it dry and then spray it with rem-oil (the carb cleaner strips all the oil/lube of the metal and you need to get it back on there so rust won't ruin it), wipe off the excess and then put a couple/three drops of mobil 1 (I don't get excited about the weight, I use 2W20, 10W30, and 10W40 in my cars/trucks and I just use the left overs from the bottom of the jugs that accumulates after they sit for a few days.  There's enough left over mobil 1 in a 5 qt. jug to completely fill one of the little GI oil bottles that comes in the M16 cleaning kits.

The lapping compound removes the parkerized finish from the rails/bolt where ti contacts the rails and polishes the metal surfaces so they slide against each other easier.

If you go this route be sure to take your rifle out of the stock as you don't want carb. cleaner, brake cleaner or lapping compound on your stock.

I've even used the valve grinding compound on one of those S&W sigma pistols and it helped the horrible trigger on that gun considerably.  It still wasn't as good as a glock trigger but it was better than before.

On the other hand you could just dryfire 50 to 100 times 3 or 4 days a week and you'll break the rifle in that way to get it to smooth up.

[jimmythegeek]

Sorry - I didn't mean to be cryptic about the rifle.  It is a CZ-455 American.   I have a variable 3x9x50 Bushnell Elite scope on it, which I may switch out for a fixed 4x.  I had problems with eye relief in prone, and a rimfire scope may be just the ticket.

I found the bolt was even stickier today after some of the work I did, but with an mp3 of stages 2 and 3 keeping track I was able to shoot around 41-43.  Just for grins, I shot stage 4, too.  I'm a threat to clean that stage.    Nice rifle.  I probably stripped some of the lube off. 

This was from the bench, as my range doesn't allow position shooting under 100 yards.  It's not a great simulation, but it is enough good data that I think I'll do fine.  Now to find a shoot I can get to in about 3 months....on to dry fire.

I also found I could do decently on stage 4 with the Marlin 795 with iron sights.  A smaller aperture seems to help.  I think I might be ready with that one, too, with a little more practice! I've already got stage 2 and 3 more or less down with that one. 

Thanks so much all of you for the advice and encouragement.  It meant something to qualify with the easiest rig around, but it'll mean a little more if I can run a bolt gun or a semi-auto with iron sights. 

[Charles McKinley]

Try a dry telfon lube on the bolt.  Home Depo carries one by DuPont.

[Caliper]

Here's a nice page I found while researching this same topic: http://www.frfrogspad.com/bolt.htm  Good reading... 

[2-Fat]

I used a Mossberg 340K bolt gun at this weekend's Appleseed (my second), and finally managed to get all the rounds off in the two transition stages.  Two things that had been slowing me down were fumbling magazine changes, and short stroking the bolt leading to a feeding problem. I found if I take a deep breath when I retract the bolt, when I exhale the sights drop back on target, if I'm in the Natural Point Of Aim. I wound up shooting 180s-190s on Sunday, up from 130s-140s at my first Appleseed. I'll be working on getting the mag changes smoother, and the position transitions faster before the next one.

[The Wolfhound]

Can you keep your aim while you cycle your bolt without losing cheek weld?  A cheek riser can help.  If your bolt is short enough, it can be done.  That keeps you on target between shots.  Concentrate on good shots, remember that  7-5 pointers beats 10-3 pointers.  Make up the difference on stage 4.

[grunt soldier]

there is tons of great info in this thread.  I watched mudcat shoot his bolt action and he is so good with it and fast that it's almost not fair to the AQT when he uses his semi autos lol.   I'm going to give it a try one of these days and see how I do.

[Charles McKinley]

NPOA getting it,  Being able to shift it and check it -is probably the most importand part of doing it with your bolt gun

Smooth magazine changes 2nd

Knowing and working your rilfe is third.

One I just thought of: experience with the AQT and its timing and shot counts.

I easily get off all my shots with time left.  It is not as hard as people make it sound.  It is a skill.

[The Wolfhound]

I had no choice but to figure it out.  All my autoloaders were in the hands of other family members.  I bought another autoloader and another family member came out.  All that left for dear old dad was the brand new boltie.  It is a good boltie though!  My first 'seed I did not have a proper sling.  I managed to take up the slack in that padded POS by wrapping it around my support arm a second time.  The plastic fantastic buckle broke on it.  I still managed the COF and do not remember being terribly stressed for time but it was a while ago.  'Seed #2 and I had a proper sling and life got so much easier!

[Sly223]

A few McDonald's straws has always worked well, as speed loaders, for tube Fed's,
I have had the pleasure of having a DR. on the line workin' a blot action .303,Lefty, he used the trigger hand to work the bolt,xcelent to watch also Martin our Fl, moderator works a blot lefty.
Don't worry if you do not post and I think it's a subject in which you should, i will start your post and tell it My way until you all chime in that's what I do!