OK 10/22 guys

[SamD]

Alright 10/22 guys.
You generated 42 pages of post about your favorite.
Start generating some mail to Ruger telling them about Appleseed.
each postcard will take less time than another post in your exceedingly long winded and many headed
10/22  LTR thread.
Send this

Dear Ruger,
I use the 10/22 for Appleseed,
Why don't you make an Appleseed model
with a good mag release, good bolt release,Tech Sights,
GI web Sling and 3 spare mags.

Help support Appleseed, we support you.
http;//www.appleseedinfo.org

Sincerely, 
(your name)


Sam

[Panama]

DONE! I didn't use a postcard. I used the comments/requests email from Rugers website.

[gjwilliamsjr]

just sent this e-mail to Ruger.  Postcard to follow. 

I am a proud owner of several of your products.  I recently bought 2 10/22 rifles to be used for the Appleseed Project.  Why don't you make an Appleseed model with a good mag release, good bolt release, Tech Sights, GI web Sling and spare mags.  They even recommend using the 10/22.  The forums on their website http://www.appleseedinfo.org have 47 pages of posts dedicated to customizing the 10/22 for Appleseed.  Thank you for your response.

[SamD]

Good on ya.
BTW a postcard has better effect.
They know it cost you, and they have the factor of having to spend real time handling it.

Sam

[gunville]

How about including a "Learn to Shoot your new 10/22 at an Appleseed" flyer in the box of every 10/22 sold?

That won't require engineering changes/contract negotiations/testing/etc. - simply the addition of a sheet of paper to the packing BOM.

I'll save you all a google - the address of Ruger corporate hq is:

Sturm, Ruger & Co., Inc.
Lacey Place
Southport, CT 06890

[MCKNBRD]

Based on my experience with Ruger, it will be falling on deaf ears.  They sell hundreds of thousands of 10/22s every year (maybe millions!), and they couldn't care less about how they are used.   

Having said that, I'm putting a copy of the SWAT reprint in with every 10/22 I see go out the door (as well as any other autoloading rifle we sell), and talk up the RWVA and Appleseed program whenever I can.  Also, I'm working with our department manager about setting up an 'LTR' package on 10/22s and getting some standardized pricing down so all Gander Gunsmith shops can make them, and, hopefully, at a reasonable cost.

More to follow as it develops.

Byrdman

[SamD]

They sell hundreds of thousands of 10/22s every year (maybe millions!), and they couldn't care less about how they are used.

No they do not care about how they are used. They do care about what sells them. 
Don't sweat it.
If you won't tell them, that's fine,
someone else will take up the slack.

Sam

[Old Dog]

Well the marlin thread is at 12 pages, 1/4 of the 10/22 thread.

I've seen about one marlin for every ten 10/22's on the firing line.  That's probably keeping the marlin thread short.  If their numbers ever go up the thread will grow, unless it's locked.  But that might make new folks think someone here doesn't like/approve of marlins and that might turn them off about buying one or shooting one at an Appleseed.  Got to be careful of people's feelings.  You never know what might upset them.

When it comes right down to it.  Anyone could write Ruger and "tell" them they've got a 10/22 and shoot it at Appleseeds.  Seems I've heard folks say telling the story is more important that getting the facts right.

[SamD]

You fail to get the point of my post

The idea IS to STOP yack, yack ,yack on the board and start yack, yack, yack in the manufacturers collective ear for the betterment of the program and the country .

usted entiende?

FF Implement new board system soonest

[Old Dog]

No!  You fail to see my interests or to care.  And that's fine.  I don't care if you do or not.  And I won't even bold or capitilze my post to shout at you since you've already had your mind made up for you.  Information doesn't sway the preconvinced mind.

An Appleseed without working rifles would not longer be an Appleseed and many of the folks who show up no (maybe most) wouldn't show up.  While not everything in the 10/22 thread is about how to make them work better most of it is.  I learned some things from that thread and I'll bet other folks here did, too.  I think I might even have helped some folks here with info I put in that thread (but that's up to them to decide.)

Is every idea posted here great?  Nope.  But every seed planted doesn't grow and you have to keep working in the garden and nurturing them to get them to grow.  Planting them and walking away to let them struggle along on their own usually ends up as a failure.

If you keep deciding what are weeds and what are fruit and chopping out what you think is weeds you gonna miss some good points and run off some good people.

But we've proven on more than one occassion here that the only people many are interested in are the ones who shut up, toe the line and don't ask uncomfortable questions or make uncormfortable points.

delete my post, it won't be the first time I said something here that FF or Fred didn't like.  I already know that being open and honest is not allowed if it disagrees with the people who run the program.

[Old Dog]

You know, I was gonna type up another post to add some things I'd thought about since the one above but coming back to read it again I don't think I need to.

I'm still here to help folks, whether it's at the range or on the forum when they have questions about their rifle, their ammo, their technique, etc.  Sorry if helping the new folks who ask questions is an issue here these days.  But I just can't seem to stop doing it on my own.  I think I'm addicted.

[jmdavis]

Also, I'm working with our department manager about setting up an 'LTR' package on 10/22s and getting some standardized pricing down so all Gander Gunsmith shops can make them, and, hopefully, at a reasonable cost.

More to follow as it develops.

Byrdman

That's a great idea. I don't think that building LTR's works well necessarily on the assembly line, but a retailer could get some additional business if he had the staff to build them.

New 10/22's come with the extended mag release, that certainly helps. Even without the bolt release and with the factory 8lb trigger, good groups are possible. Add the Tech Sights, 1-1/4 inch swivels and sell a GI sling and the customer is done.
At this point, I believe that even the Tech Sights should be an option.

[MCKNBRD]

You fail to get the point of my post

The idea IS to STOP yack, yack ,yack on the board and start yack, yack, yack in the manufacturers collective ear for the betterment of the program and the country .

usted entiende?

FF Implement new board system soonest

Actually, Sam, you fail to see the forest for the trees.  There are many of us out here that Appleseed because we like to help an organization that seems to be trying to do good, when we have time and resources.  Then we get berated for 'not doing enough' when we're doing something.  If you think that a postcard to Ruger would be better than contacting my distributor rep and seeing about a special edition being commissioned by them, let me know.  I'll get the postcard in the mail tomorrow.

You might be grabbing buckets, but someone else (that isn't a stand-on-the-street-corner-and-yell-at-everyone zealot) might just have a damage control kit with a plug.

Your call.

Byrdman

[SamD]

OK folks.
Excuse me for bothering.
None of you so far has gotten the point of the thread that I was trying to get across.

I won't belabor you wit it any more.

Sam

[Old Dog]

Yeah, if we all do the same thing we'll all get the same result.  I think what mcknbyrd is doing is great.  He's reaching out to everyone who buys a potential Appleseed rifle from his store.  Who else is making that kind of contact with someone already interested in shooting a rifle?

Multple approaches, small or large, will touch more different kinds of folks.  That's one of the things we've struggle with, how to contact more people and get them interested.  Sam is trying a different track.

As for corporations?  They only worry about money.  Now if we could convince Ruger that no one would buy anymore 10/22's unless they had Tech sights, 1&1/4" sling swivels and sling and Appleseed sign up sheets in them they'd jump right on the band wagon.  Until they see a change in the bottom line they'll just keep doing what they've been doing as long as it's making them money.

[MCKNBRD]

OK folks.
Excuse me for bothering.
None of you so far has gotten the point of the thread that I was trying to get across.

I won't belabor you wit it any more.

Sam

Seems to me that the point of your post was to say unless you do it my way, you're wasting your time".

So, no, I don't think I missed your point.

My point (albeit an apparently misguided one), is that there are other ways to make it happen and someone (in this case, me) might have a method that could stand a chance of working.

Nice passive-aggressive post, by the way.  You gonna go pout in the corner now, too? 

I'll keep doing what I can, when I can.  If its not enough, so be it.  Let me know where to send my orange hat. 

[Old Dog]

Hey guys, none of us need to quit.  All us little guys are still contributing in our own way.  Doing it different is a good thing.

Once again we see where folks are trying to do something good and getting what they perceive as a hard time or criticism for it.   We're all different.  Let's just let folks who are contributing in their own way continue and if we feel the need to try something their doing that's fine, if not, that should be fine, too. 

Maybe I should follow my own advice here - anything not particularly constructive or in some way "calling someone out" over their posts might best be done by PMs.  Then again, PMs from some folks might just be ignored, but if that happens both parties should learn not to cross swords (rifles?) over disagreements on how to contribute to the program.

After all, any method of contributing is better than sitting on the couch.  No need to tear down/belittle someone else's attempts to contribute.

[Old Dog]

I just did a littel checking.  Ruger has facilites in Prescott, AZ (how close is that to you Sam?), Southport, CT and Newport, NH.

Maybe folks in/near those locations could contact/visit those sites and share the Appleseed literature and even invite some of the Ruger folks to Appleseeds near those locations.  Would it be worth it to let a few of them attend and Appleseed (or two) for free to try to show them how important it is and how many of their rifles are used by Appleseeders?  Anymore is seems to me (at the few Appleseeds I work) that there are more 10/22's than anything else, but very few unmodified 10/22's.

Just another idea for folks closer to those facilities to consider.  Face to face beats a post card (or so it seems to me).

[MCKNBRD]

Good points, Old Dog.  Sorry for getting out of whack.   

I'll see if I can get hold of a couple of our distributors and find out what they look for when doing 'special editions' and start gathering that info.

Realistically, an LTR package should have click adjustable sights, sling & swivels, a better bolt release, and 2 magazines.  No reason that stuff can't be built into them from the factory; they already have different sights, various stocks, and they've added the new extended mag release.  The only real hangup might be the bolt release...I'll see what I can do on my end.

Byrdman

[gjwilliamsjr]

received this response via e-mail today from Ruger:

Response:
We do special orders for distributors only. Your request will be forwarded to our Marketing Department.

If you need further information, please visit our website at www.ruger.com or contact us at:

Revolvers, shotguns, rifles, 10/22 Charger Pistol:  (603) 865-2442
Pistols:  (928) 778-6555
Serial Number History Information:  (603) 865-2424

Now I'll wait and see if I get a response from the postcard, or a response from the Marketing Dapartment.

[EEL]

Read this post late last night.  Went to bed pondering just what was going on here???  I see many a good Appleseeder doing what they can to inspire others to get the word out.  And somewhere along the way it became personal.   

I've read many posts from all you folks that have posted here.  Respect each and every one of you.  Do I necessarily agree with EVERYTHING ya'all ever posted?  No, but I have learned a little something from each and everyone of you!  And feel I'm a better American and better Appleseed instructor as a result of "knowing" the lot of you.

My take:

The passion you all feel is electrifing!!!  If not for where this thread sank to, Fred would be dancing in the isles.  Dedicated Appleseeders brainstorming on ways to improve the organization, reach the Mfg, and make the tools more user friendly.  Instead, shots are being traded, unwarrented shots.  You all are vital to our organization.

Sam would like to have seen the effort of 42 pages of 10/22 discussion aimed at Ruger Mfg.  Ruger doesn't necessarily read our boards.  His view is post cards work cause they're hand written and not lost in junk e-mail. 


O.D. and MCKBRD want to take a diferent approach.  Contacting regional reps verbally and in person and getting in their ears and faces.

Somewhere, the original intent was lost in the fog of "what works best".  Guys, pull out an atlas (yeah, I still use one.  Friggin' dinosaur I know, but no GPS yet).  How many ways can you drive from point "A" to point "B"?  Right!  One may be all interstate, shorter, quicker, more direct, less construction, etc.  Point is...all roads get you there.

Remember SOMSOM?  The goal we all strive for?  Or we wouldn't even be on this board?  The sinking ship?

Now I hope you all intend on being at the shin-dig Independence Day 2010.  Hopefully by then, this will be nothing more than campfire chatter.  If it isn't smoothed over by then....Well I'll have to get the Illinois, Wisconsin, and Missouri contingent (and any more help we might need) and make ya'all kiss and make up right there!!   

Keep the passion.  Keep the faith.  Keep on 'Seedin.

Respectfully,
EEL

[TAZDevil]

Thank you, EEL
you wrote what I was thinking last night
glad you were able to put it into sensible calm words
TAZ

[Talon]

Discussions like this are best left alone by outside parties. Without wood for fuel, a fire dies down.

[jmdavis]

Discussions like this are best left alone by outside parties. Without wood for fuel, a fire dies down.

Good point! Maybe this thread should be moved or locked.

[Nickle]

Let's keep it civil here.

Sam, you make some good points.

But (and I'll say this openly, so others don't follow the same path), bashing people to get them motivated gets poor results.

It's a worthy effort, I doubt I'll partake. To sum that up, I beat all of you to the punch, by a couple of years, and I didn't much care for the response I got. It wasn't a postcard, it was a phone call, backed up by an e-mail, to a Ruger Senior VP.

Marlin is owned by the same company as Remington, and has a much better track record of paying attention to the consumer.

Now, some folks will, and other won't, partake. I'll accept that.

An idea was mentioned about inviting Ruger or Marlin (or other companies like Savage) representatives to an Appleseed. I'll be there would be no problem with them being freebies, if it doesn't get out of hand. (Hint, check first.)

[MCKNBRD]

OK, just to show that I'm not all smoke and no fire...this is the email I just fired out to a Marketing VP at a major firearms/shooting supplies distributor that has done many 'Distributor Exclusives' with Ruger:

Mr. Massimo, my name is Craig Byrd, and I'm an instructor with the Revolutionary
War Veteran's Association's 'Appleseed' project.  Our goal is to teach American
History and Heritage, especially the history around our War of Independence from
England and the first shots fired on April 19th, 1775.  We use marksmanship
instruction as a primary vehicle to get folks out to hear the message of our
founders and what they went through, hoping to make our shooters more aware of
their heritage and the responsibility that comes along with the freedoms we
enjoy.

This morning, I used our corporate contact number (I work for Gander Mountain to
finance my shooting addiction!) and spoke with Chris Heurung about this; he
mentioned that he had heard of Appleseed and was considering attending one and
seemed energized to help me get the answers I needed.  He spoke with one of the
buyers, who mentioned that you would probably be a better contact, so I'm hoping
that I can get some help from Davidson's with an idea for a 'special edition'
rifle for our shooters.

Having said all that, I'd like to find out what it takes to justify a
'Distributor Exclusive' or 'Special Edition' 10/22 from Ruger.  One of the
primary 'tools' we use on the line are .22LR rifles.  We do over 80% of our
instruction at the 25yd line, and everything you do right (or wrong!) at 25yds
is magnified on the long distance (sometimes out to 500yds) range.  Our
standards for qualification are simple: 4moa capable rifles that can be reloaded
rapidly.  Our course of fire isn't complex; it was designed around Garands and
M1903 Springfields.  Ruger 10/22s already make up 70%+ of the .22s we see on the
line at any given Appleseed event; they are EXCELLENT for our needs and serve
many shooters well.  But, like any rifle, there are certain 'tweaks' that make
them easier to use for the Appleseeder.  I can go into detail on what makes the
Appleseed 'Liberty Training Rifle' (LTR, as we call it) different than a
box-stock 10/22 (I'll send you a presentation outlining what we do to them and
why), but I'd like to find out from you what Davidson's would need to justify
sending the 'order' to Ruger for them.

I look forward to hearing from you and helping to explain Appleseed to you.  It
would be great to get a 10/22LTR from Ruger that, out of the box, is ready to
take to an Appleseed and help a shooter become a Rifleman and start down the
path towards being a well-informed American.

More Appleseed info can be found at www.appleseedinfo.org or www.rwva.org

Thanks for your time, and I'll be building a presentation to send you ASAP that
covers the basic modifications to a 10/22 that makes it into an LTR.

Craig Byrd
Rifleman

I'll keep ya'll posted on what I hear back.  Gonna go get some pics and start building a powerpoint...

Byrdman

[jmdavis]

Great email Mcknbrd.

[Deacon]

Thanks SamD for starting this thread and getting us thinking about this!

It may have taken a different turn, but at least you put the car in Drive.

-Deacon

[CaptG]

MCKNBYRD,
Great letter. I've also sent out a postcard, but since you have an in with a rep at Ruger, I'll mention to you what I put in my card. A special edition Ruger for a specific purpose is not unprecedented. Last year they made a few tweaks on the new model Vaquero specificaly for Cowboy Mounted Shooting and called it the Montado. The last time i looked, at membership numbers, CMSA had about 4,000 members, and from my experience at events, maybe 1/3 of them were shooting Rugers. Appleseed has the potential to sell many more units. Maybe this can help.
Guy

[MCKNBRD]

MCKNBYRD,
Great letter. I've also sent out a postcard, but since you have an in with a rep at Ruger, I'll mention to you what I put in my card. A special edition Ruger for a specific purpose is not unprecedented. Last year they made a few tweaks on the new model Vaquero specificaly for Cowboy Mounted Shooting and called it the Montado. The last time i looked, at membership numbers, CMSA had about 4,000 members, and from my experience at events, maybe 1/3 of them were shooting Rugers. Appleseed has the potential to sell many more units. Maybe this can help.
Guy

Yeah, we had a customer come in and ask us to order 2 Montados for him; thats how I learned about our 'chain' at Davidson's.  Believe it or not, Ruger didn't change their line processes for the Montado on their own...it is a Davidson's exclusive, commissioned by Davidson's so they could have a 'leg up' on all the other Vaquero distributors.

Hence my trying to leverage contacts with Davidson's, as they are well known for special editions...

We'll see where it goes.

Byrdman