Can we use AS to get a Non-resident CCW in FL?

[student]

I am trying to do some research to see if we can add another benefit to AS.

I've seen advertised around the country that schools/instructors can teach a firearm safety class and the student would be able to get a FL non resident permit.

As this guy has done http://www.americanccw.com/

Our classes could be construed as a competition as we keep score.  We have a set qualification structure.  In this we should be able to qualify under 790.06 5.

We could also qualify under 790.06 3 if we are recognised by the FL Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services.

The clerk I spoke to a the FL office ( after days of trying and finally a 30 minute hold on the phone) said that we would have to get each instructor qualified and pay a $220.00 fee each.

If a competition works I can't see how we would have to certify our instructors.

I'm not having any luck with them on the phone and the inter-net is not much use either. 

Can one of you local guys try checking this out in person at a local Ag dept?

I am in your debt.

Aaron

[fepowered]

Any State Hunters' safety course qualifies.   FL is specific about the certification necessary to qualify.  There are already so many ways to qualify that Appleseed really does not need to suit that purpose. 

[jimbtv]

Any State Hunters' safety course qualifies.   FL is specific about the certification necessary to qualify.  There are already so many ways to qualify that Appleseed really does not need to suit that purpose.  

Me thinks you assume that anyone who attends an Appleseed has already taken a hunter safety course. Not all of us come from the hunting ranks, and while I may not have the backbone to kill much more than a mosquito, I take personal safety very seriously. It would be great if attendance at an Appleseed would qualify as a bona fide training course for those of us that never hunt game.

The good news is that I live in one of two states in the US that doesn't require any justification or training for carrying a concealed weapon. The bad news is that no other states will reciprocate, since Vermont doesn't require any training or registration.

[fepowered]

Me thinks you assume that anyone who attends an Appleseed has already taken a hunter safety course. ... It would be great if attendance at an Appleseed would qualify as a bona fide training course for those of us that never hunt game.

I agree that it would be great, but currently, the cost per instructor to be either NRA certified or FL state certified does not make sense.  The cost per individual to take a hunters' safety course is $0 in Vermont....    Other states have only nominal fees.   This makes a FL non resident CCW the cheapest available.  It cost me over $200 for the UT and MN classes for my non resident CCW.     

[student]

Our classes could be construed as a competition as we keep score.  We have a set qualification structure.  In this we should be able to qualify under 790.06 5.

We could also qualify under 790.06 3 if we are recognised by the FL Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services.

I was hoping we could work it so we could qual under one of these statutes.  I just haven't been able to get very far yet by phone or email.  I was hoping a local would either have a contact or could make one with the officials.

The big benefit for this would not come necessarily from guys in FL but from guys in other states.

May also help get some guys wives into the CCW fold if the class is free to them.

I'll keep working remotely.  If anyone has a line that would help it is more than welcome.

Aaron

[Buckshot]

Student,

The Florida CCW people got mugged by their state Congress and are now getting mobbed by CCW applications.

The income from CCWs was to go into a fund to pay for people and expenses as needed to get the CCWs done in the time required by Florida law.

The Florida Congress, in collusion with the Governor, cleaned out the fund, they can't hire the people they need for the workload, and licenses are getting sent out WAY after the legal time period for them to do so, IF they get sent out at all.  It is said that some have now set so long that they are skipping them to work on more current stuff.

That, along with the run on CCWs from the time of Obama's nomination through his election and swearing in have them working as hard as they can, but BADLY understaffed.  That is why you can seldom get them on the phone and they don't have time to mess with the Internet.

Florida CCW supporters could not get enough force up quickly enough to block the looting of the CCW fund, but they are on it now, including, IIRC Marion Hammer, former NRA President and Florida CCW supporter.  I WOULD NOT want to cross her in the long run.

Probably the best thing you could do for them and Appleseed right now is leave them alone.  If they get the mess straightened out then the MIGHT be much more approachable on something like this.

Buckshot

[student]

I had heard about the CCW fund getting robbed.

In my state our permit issuers are behind as well without being robbed.



Guys I will table this idea until the wave crests.  Perhaps the law will be clarified somewhat by then.

Aaron

[Devnull]

Student,

The Florida CCW people got mugged by their state Congress and are now getting mobbed by CCW applications.

The income from CCWs was to go into a fund to pay for people and expenses as needed to get the CCWs done in the time required by Florida law.

The Florida Congress, in collusion with the Governor, cleaned out the fund, they can't hire the people they need for the workload, and licenses are getting sent out WAY after the legal time period for them to do so, IF they get sent out at all.  It is said that some have now set so long that they are skipping them to work on more current stuff.

That, along with the run on CCWs from the time of Obama's nomination through his election and swearing in have them working as hard as they can, but BADLY understaffed.  That is why you can seldom get them on the phone and they don't have time to mess with the Internet.

Florida CCW supporters could not get enough force up quickly enough to block the looting of the CCW fund, but they are on it now, including, IIRC Marion Hammer, former NRA President and Florida CCW supporter.  I WOULD NOT want to cross her in the long run.

Probably the best thing you could do for them and Appleseed right now is leave them alone.  If they get the mess straightened out then the MIGHT be much more approachable on something like this.

Buckshot

I experienced this first hand. I sent in my application the first week of October and didn't receive my permit until last month! No issues with background nor with the paperwork just not enough man power to get it done quickly.

You still have the issue though of the classroom portion. I was under the impression that like Utah, Florida wanted some basics covered in the classes such as when lethal force is justified and other legal issues but I could be wrong...

Honestly I think our time is better served 7th stepping and getting more people to come to an AS. Sure some might be enticed by the training counting toward a CCW, BUT it might open us up to some legal ramifications. Someone might sue saying our "training" caused someone to shoot when they shouldn't or something else equally absurd. Might not be worth the effort...

[gjwilliamsjr]

Student,

The Florida CCW people got mugged by their state Congress and are now getting mobbed by CCW applications.

The income from CCWs was to go into a fund to pay for people and expenses as needed to get the CCWs done in the time required by Florida law.

The Florida Congress, in collusion with the Governor, cleaned out the fund, they can't hire the people they need for the workload, and licenses are getting sent out WAY after the legal time period for them to do so, IF they get sent out at all.  It is said that some have now set so long that they are skipping them to work on more current stuff.

That, along with the run on CCWs from the time of Obama's nomination through his election and swearing in have them working as hard as they can, but BADLY understaffed.  That is why you can seldom get them on the phone and they don't have time to mess with the Internet.

Florida CCW supporters could not get enough force up quickly enough to block the looting of the CCW fund, but they are on it now, including, IIRC Marion Hammer, former NRA President and Florida CCW supporter.  I WOULD NOT want to cross her in the long run.

Probably the best thing you could do for them and Appleseed right now is leave them alone.  If they get the mess straightened out then the MIGHT be much more approachable on something like this.

Buckshot

Almost.....Governor Crist vetoed the raid of the Florida CCW trust fund on May 27th.  Every other trust got cleaned out, but thanks to the NRAILA, Agriculture commisioner Bronson, and alot of e-mails, the CCW trust fund is intact.  Tallahassee is still swamped with applications, but they are making progress, and the trust fund is still there to help with upgrading equipment and clearing the backlog.  Check the NRA ILA for current updates.

[ItsanSKS]

Just to add to this, if you are currently waiting for your CCW from Florida, and it has been over 90 days since the application was received, *you sent it registered mail, right?* then by state law, your application MUST be approved, and issued immediately. 

A simple phone call, advising the FL Dept. of Agriculture that you know your rights under the law cited below, is usually enough to get your CCW mailed out the next day.

(2)[/sub](6)(c)]  The Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services shall, within 90 days after the date of receipt of the items listed in subsection (5):

1.  Issue the license; or

2.  Deny the application based solely on the ground that the applicant fails to qualify under the criteria listed in subsection (2) or subsection (3). If the Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services denies the application, it shall notify the applicant in writing, stating the ground for denial and informing the applicant of any right to a hearing pursuant to chapter 120.

[Devnull]

Yeah I tried that... Didn't work. I was told that they do not consider it a complete application until they get the background check back. When I asked had it been sent out for BG check at the 90 day mark I was told no because there was a backlog. 

Oh well, at least I already had my NM and Utah licenses way before then 

[Sgt Joker]

The post has taken a different twist but;

If you came up with an offical score sheet for each shooter for the weekend and wrote down their scores as they progressed I think it would fly under paragraph 5 and would not require any record keeping requirements as specificed at the end of the chapter. It is also neat to track your progress as you improve. I think the little CMP certificate will fly as well. But the purpose of the AS is not to certify folks for CWPs but it is a side benefit as an AS shooter will get 1000 times the level of training that a shooter attending on of the 2 hour gun show gunslinger courses out there.

Personally people like to get a little piece of paper when they complete something and a nice little certificate with the RWVA minuteman logo and a little sumation of the course would be a nice touch signed by the instructors. Many folks would hang on to that for a long time. Everyone walks away from an AS with a great feeling inside and a few get rifleman patches but that would be a nice touch for everyone who attended and it doesn't have to be tailored to a CWP application.   

5.  Presents evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competition or military service;

A photocopy of a certificate of completion of any of the courses or classes; or an affidavit from the instructor, school, club, organization, or group that conducted or taught said course or class attesting to the completion of the course or class by the applicant; or a copy of any document which shows completion of the course or class or evidences participation in firearms competition shall constitute evidence of qualification under this paragraph; any person who conducts a course pursuant to subparagraph 2., subparagraph 3., or subparagraph 7., or who, as an instructor, attests to the completion of such courses, must maintain records certifying that he or she observed the student safely handle and discharge the firearm;

[fepowered]

I think the little CMP certificate will fly as well. But the purpose of the AS is not to certify folks for CWPs but it is a side benefit as an AS shooter will get 1000 times the level of training that a shooter attending on of the 2 hour gun show gunslinger courses out there.

Let me start off by saying that I agree with the point made in that participation in a 2 day Appleseed clearly meets the intents if not the letter of the requirements of the Florida CCW permit application process which requires that a trained and duly certified instructor observes the safe handling and discharge of firearms.  I would go so far as to claim that the training and experience recieved trumps ANY "state certified" hunters' safety course and most all shooting competitions for the safe handling and discharge of firearms.
That being said, and agreeing that an Appleseed is many things and is some of THE best training around, it has some definite limitations which are all entirely outside of the mission and scope.  CCW is definitely not anywhere in the Appleseed mission and scope.  Although I am all for unrestricted CCW from a legislative standpoint, from a personal responsibility and common sense standpoint you are setting yourself up for trouble and fooling yourself if you believe that an Appleseed in any way "qualifies" you or prepares you for CCW.   Neither does hunters' safety or most shooting competitions which qualify under Florida law.  Apples and Orangutans...   Even a "2 hour gun show gunslinger" CCW course will prepare you more from many standpoints (I don't know of any actual 2 hour courses). 
The reality is that any formal CCW course of training you find is a minimum of 4 to 6 hours.  Many are up to 12 hours plus.  This is only for the classroom portion.  This portion will help keep you out of prison for the rest of your life or even fighting for your life due to murder charges.  It will help you keep the clarity of mind to help you avoid having to draw your weapon in the first place.  You will then spend several hours at a minimum at a range practicing drills and defensive techniques.   Drawing your weapon and firing is ALWAYS the last resort.  You had better have more tools in your bag than a gun.  "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" type of thing.  For every hour you train in a CCW course, you should be spending 10 in some type of self defense course (Karate, Tae Kwon Do, etc.....).    Once again, I personally support AK and VT (and TX in your vehicle) type CCW where anyone who can legally own and possess a firearm can conceal it but also highly advocate voluntary training be utilized by all.

This whole thread is really just another distraction from what we should be doing.  It is obvious that any effort spent on making Appleseed "CCW training compliant" is better spent on the core Appleseed mission and spreading the message.  I doubt that we would increase attendance  by advertising Appleseed as satisfying FL CCW training requirements.  There is ALOT of work to be done with more needs identified every day.  The group of those going out and doing the work does not appear to be growing in proportion to the work itself.

[jimbtv]

Great post, FE,... very clear and helpful.

While I understand that this is a working forum for Appleseed, it also serves as an educational forum for those of us that don't have a firearm's background. I would not understand the "hammer vs nail" analogy without an exchange like this so I view this thread as educational.

Being somewhat expert in aviation and sound propagation, I too can segment out a portion of posts on those forums that might appear to be distracting. In reality I cannot define what is important to the orignal poster from my expert position on those subjects, therefore I have to let them develop on their own. Now a post about the best laundry detergent on an aviation forum is inappropriate but I feel that inviting an expert's response like yours in this thread serves Appleseed very well.

I see this in other Appleseed threads too and sometimes it is totally appropriate. In turn, newbies like me gain a weath of knowledge that can be used to support the Appleseed cause through these somewhat obtuse threads and exchanges.

And for the record, Vermonters are not whipping out their sidearms with any regularity     so while I certainly respect the benefit of training, a modicum of discretion is also in play here. And yes, my ability to verbally disarm has been much more effective than any firearm I've ever possessed, and I have yet to use my 3 years of Tae Kwon Do training to defend myself. Even though Vermont doesn't require firearms training for concealed-carry, that doesn't mean that those who carry are have not seeked out training.

My 2 cents.