Which .223 Remington for Appleseed?

[crater33]

I'm planning on taking my first  Appleseed Rifle Clinic this weekend in Hempstead. The only rifle I own is chambered in 5.56 NATO.

I'm just now realizing that I've got to buy ~400 rounds of ammunition for this class—and how much that is going to cost—so with that kind of investment I want to make sure the I'm not wasting money on the wrong kind of ammo.

So far I've only shot Hornady Frontier 5.56 55gr FMJ through it. Is that a good round to bring with me to the class? Or is there a better round I should consider (besides .22LR, I know I know)

From what I've read, there isn't much point in me running "match grade" .223 ammo through my rifle, cause I don't have a .223 Wylde barrel. But I also see that there are 62gr and 77gr rounds out there. And of course a boat tail or a boat tail hollow point (with it without plastic tips) would supposedly improve my accuracy.

Obviously, I know I can't bring M855 green tips. But would something like this box of 460 rounds of Black Hills Mk262 be overkill for this kind of shooting?

Or should just stick to M193 clones by Hornady, Federal, and PMC?

[topper]

I'd bring a .22 for most of the shooting and learning and save the centerfire for day 2.

If you feel the need for centerfire the m193 ammo will get the job done nicely.

[12 Gage]

If you already have a bunch of ammo, shoot that at your Appleseed.

Do not buy expensive ammo for your AR15 in quantities of more than one box. In my experience they are incredibly particular on what ammo they prefer.

Two identical guns and one will insist on one bullet weight or brand. The other has a totally different preference.

I have an expensive Criterion barrel in .223 Wylde with a 1:8 twist that on paper should like heavier bullets. It only likes cheap 55gr ball ammo, not that I'm really complaining. It shoots expensive match grade ammo worse. It is bizarre.

[Smallbore]

At 25 meters, pretty much any .223 factory ammo will run fine in a 5.56 chamber.
At distance, that's where you will start to go wonky.
When you start to go past 250 meters, you'll need to factor in barrel rate twist (this is where bullet weights matter), .223 vs 5.56, bullet weight,
barrel length, can be a deep dive.
25-250 meters?
If it exits the barrel at speed and doesn't malfunction in your rifle, you'll hit what you're aiming at.

[LDB415]

400 rounds .223 is what, $200-$225? 400 rounds CCI SV $32 at MidSouth. New 10/22 with sights $236 and without sights $205 if you have an extra scope/dot, both from allthingsfirearm.com so for $50 or so more you shoot the easier rimfire and have a new rifle as a bonus.

[Eagle Keeper]

You could also use a CCMG 22lr conversion kit. I like mags from Black Dog for the best performance and they also have short 10 round mags that are good for prone shooting.
I would also recommend a scoped rifle to start a 1 inch target at 25 yards is kinda small.

[Maximum Ordinate]

Good morning, sir. Cute pup! 🐶

Bottom line up front: Save your money! Your Hornady Frontier 55gr FMJ should be fine for your first Appleseed clinic. Do not buy that Mk262 case quite yet.  It would be complete overkill.

Hornady Frontier 55gr FMJ is capable of shooting 1.5 to 2" groups at 100y out of a standard rack-grade AR-15.  That's good enough to allow you to focus on techniques and positions. 

If you already have the Frontier, stick with it.  It is budget-friendly and more than accurate enough. Avoid mixing ammo with different brands or weights. Keeping your ammo consistent helps you focus on technique without adding variables that might show up on your target.

Bring that rifle, pack your 55gr Frontier and some lunch, and focus on having a great time learning the fundamentals. You have exactly what you need to earn your Rifleman patch!

Best,
MO

P.S.  If you haven't read the How to Prepare Guide, it'll help you get the most out of your event.  Download it here: https://appleseedinfo.org/how-to-prepare/

[Cleveland]

Based on personal experience, I believe the Frontier 55g is some of the best mass-produced ammo on the market at the moment. YMMV

Enjoy your event!!

[crater33]

I'd bring a .22 for most of the shooting and learning and save the centerfire for day 2.

If you feel the need for centerfire the m193 ammo will get the job done nicely.

You could also use a CCMG 22lr conversion kit. I like mags from Black Dog for the best performance and they also have short 10 round mags that are good for prone shooting.
I would also recommend a scoped rifle to start a 1 inch target at 25 yards is kinda small.

400 rounds .223 is what, $200-$225? 400 rounds CCI SV $32 at MidSouth. New 10/22 with sights $236 and without sights $205 if you have an extra scope/dot, both from allthingsfirearm.com so for $50 or so more you shoot the easier rimfire and have a new rifle as a bonus.

I was expecting this response, lol. I know how much the Appleseed community loves the 22LR and I'm starting to understand why (mainly cause of the price of ammo.) But I have a very good reason to stick with my .223

Therefore, it makes sense to me that I should train with the firearms that I am actually going to have on me at any given time. First, this month, I am starting with Appleseed class because I want to be able to shoot my AR-15 accurately with nothing more than iron sights & a sling. Second, next month, I am planning on taking a Fighting Rifle class in which I will learn how to shoot in an upright position with a red dot and a tactical sling.

I wish I had started this process earlier but I was waiting for SBR's to become fully legal (without all that pistol brace, split fix, Form 1, Form 4, cat-and-mouse nonsense)

[crater33]

Good morning, sir. Cute pup! 🐶

Thank you

That picture is from his first time seeing snow (which was in the Florida panhandle of all places.)

[MattNH]

I've done well with the PMC 55g M193 spec. The important thing is sticking with one type for the event.  Have fun!!!

[Mrs. Smith]

I'll echo the 55gr frontier support. I shot a 25m AQT with a center fire this weekend for the first time. I'd previously saved them for Known Distance and stuck with 22 for 25m events. I may very well never shoot it with 22 again. It was a most excellent experience.

Have fun in Hempstead!

[LDB415]

I was expecting this response, lol. I know how much the Appleseed community loves the 22LR and I'm starting to understand why (mainly cause of the price of ammo.) But I have a very good reason to stick with my .223

Therefore, it makes sense to me that I should train with the firearms that I am actually going to have on me at any given time. First, this month, I am starting with Appleseed class because I want to be able to shoot my AR-15 accurately with nothing more than iron sights & a sling. Second, next month, I am planning on taking a Fighting Rifle class in which I will learn how to shoot in an upright position with a red dot and a tactical sling.

I wish I had started this process earlier but I was waiting for SBR's to become fully legal (without all that pistol brace, split fix, Form 1, Form 4, cat-and-mouse nonsense)

The tide turns to another shore where one finds this or any of several other fine models in their line. Same manual of arms and practice but at major ammo savings.

https://mailchi.mp/tippmannarms.com/projectappleseedm4-22_member

[Burnett]

What this does is create a dilemma the perfect solution to which is to build an exact replica of your AR... (wait for it...) but... (wait for it...) chambered in .22LR.
ba BAM-A-LAM-A-DING-DONG!!!

[Davidjr]

I'm planning on taking my first  Appleseed Rifle Clinic this weekend in Hempstead. The only rifle I own is chambered in 5.56 NATO.

I'm just now realizing that I've got to buy ~400 rounds of ammunition for this class—and how much that is going to cost—so with that kind of investment I want to make sure the I'm not wasting money on the wrong kind of ammo.

So far I've only shot Hornady Frontier 5.56 55gr FMJ through it. Is that a good round to bring with me to the class? Or is there a better round I should consider (besides .22LR, I know I know)

From what I've read, there isn't much point in me running "match grade" .223 ammo through my rifle, cause I don't have a .223 Wylde barrel. But I also see that there are 62gr and 77gr rounds out there. And of course a boat tail or a boat tail hollow point (with it without plastic tips) would supposedly improve my accuracy.

Obviously, I know I can't bring M855 green tips. But would something like this box of 460 rounds of Black Hills Mk262 be overkill for this kind of shooting?

Or should just stick to M193 clones by Hornady, Federal, and PMC?

55gr Hornady frontier would be a great choice. It even would do great at a KD.  PMC X-Tac is also another solid choice. 

And also M855 would be perfectly acceptable at a 25M event. 

[pblanc]

If your shooting is limited to 25 meters there is absolutely no point in purchasing match grade ammo.  Boat tail projectiles and heavier than 55 grain projectiles have some advantage at longer ranges but won't matter a hoot close in.

What will matter some is consistency of powder charge which equates to consistency of muzzle velocity.  You don't need high muzzle velocity close in but if there is a big difference in muzzle velocity round to round there will be some inconsistency in ballistic drop which could lead to some vertical stringing if severe.

[Burnett]

And also M855 would be perfectly acceptable at a 25M event. 

The caveat here would be the range allowing them; some don't want "armor piercing" ammo.
If they are allowed, let 'er rip.

[crater33]

And also M855 would be perfectly acceptable at a 25M event. 

Would it, though? I thought M855 was notoriously inaccurate because the steel penetrator isn't guaranteed to be centered inside the lead.

The caveat here would be the range allowing them; some don't want "armor piercing" ammo.
If they are allowed, let 'er rip.

This was my concern as well. Most of the ranges that I know about don't allow steel core ammo. And if I can't train with it, it doesn't make any sense to buy it.

[Davidjr]

Would it, though? I thought M855 was notoriously inaccurate because the steel penetrator isn't guaranteed to be centered inside the lead.







This is true.

 But I personally haven't had problems with that until I'm past 200-300 yards. 

I wouldn't spend the money on it if you don't already have any. 

It will do just fine at 25 yards.  So if you have a bunch (and the range allows) just send it. 

[Mahamotorworks]

I went to my 2nd Appleseed with Wolf 223 ammo, I was just a few points off of the 210 to earn the patch. The frontier will work for the 25m event.

Bring your AR and enjoy a weekend of learning and shooting your rifle.

MAHA

[12 Gage]

And also M855 would be perfectly acceptable at a 25M event. 

Would it, though? I thought M855 was notoriously inaccurate because the steel penetrator isn't guaranteed to be centered inside the lead.

Appleseed is about learning marksmanship, not having the best equipment.

A good marksman with mediocre equipment will outperform a mediocre marksman with excellent equipment.

The humbling thing about coming to one of these classes is realizing that you're the weakest link in your setup.

Your gun is already capable. You're there to improve yourself.

[mmirate]

Would it, though? I thought M855 was notoriously inaccurate because the steel penetrator isn't guaranteed to be centered inside the lead.

This is correct, at distances past circa 300yd. Much like wind and spin destabilization, this effect happens linearly over time rather than over distance, thus it compounds with distance. So even though 25yd is 1/12th of 300yd, you will see much less than 1/12th the angular effect at 25yd as you would at 300yd.

(Digression: personally, Boston Dynamics has done a good job of convincing me to not expend M855 on general practice. )

[Maximum Ordinate]

Good morning.

You don't need a reason to dislike or distrust M855.

Shooting success is largely mental.  If you don't have confidence in your equipment or ammo, it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy and reflect on your target.

Bring ammo you're comfortable or familiar with.

-MO

P.S. Also not a fan of most M855.   

[LDB415]

Given my shooting skills, I'm a price shopper. AmmoSeek.com, set shipping to >4 and exclude word fee. Depending on results I may go to >6. Then I find the least expensive known seller I like and whatever ammo it is they have is the one. Order 3 or 4 (or more) boxes to dilute shipping costs and all set for a good while. YMWV

[crater33]

I wish Walmart would stock .223 again 

[scuzzy]

You don't need a reason to dislike or distrust M855.

P.S. Also not a fan of most M855. 

I had a really bad batch of 855 once. As in 8 moa bad. My buddy Richard experienced that once too.

Maybe there is something to the steel insert not quite centered? Dunno.

Anyhow - Frontier rocks. Good stuff.

[crater33]

One last question:

I know that magazine swaps are going to be part of the drills we do. I read that I need to bring (2) magazines that hold at least 10 rounds. Right now I own (1) PMAG 20 and (2) PMAG 30 Window

Should I buy a second PMAG 20? I bought one because I figured it would be easier to shoot in the prone position with a magazine that doesn't hang below the pistol grip, although now I'm not sure that was really necessary. It turns out that I have plenty of clearance underneath a PMAG 30. But doing a magazine swap with two PMAG 30's in the prone position will definitely be harder than with two PMAG 20's

Will we be doing any magazine swaps in the prone position? Or will those all be in sitting & standing?

[Smallbore]

There is a mag change in "transition standing to prone."

Dry practice the transition at home to see if your current set up works for you.

If you have some way or someone to time it, even better.

[Davidjr]

One last question:

I know that magazine swaps are going to be part of the drills we do. I read that I need to bring (2) magazines that hold at least 10 rounds. Right now I own (1) PMAG 20 and (2) PMAG 30 Window

Should I buy a second PMAG 20? I bought one because I figured it would be easier to shoot in the prone position with a magazine that doesn't hang below the pistol grip, although now I'm not sure that was really necessary. It turns out that I have plenty of clearance underneath a PMAG 30. But doing a magazine swap with two PMAG 30's in the prone position will definitely be harder than with two PMAG 20's

Will we be doing any magazine swaps in the prone position? Or will those all be in sitting & standing?

 There are mag charges in seated and prone. 


The 20rd PMAG is perfect.  I would suggest you get one more 20rd mag. the 30 rounders  will get in the way in prone.

I wouldn't get a 10rd mag there isn't much to grip to rip it out.  especially if it gets caught up for whatever reason. 

[crater33]

There are mag charges in seated and prone. 


The 20rd PMAG is perfect.  I would suggest you get one more 20rd mag. the 30 rounders  will get in the way in prone.

I wouldn't get a 10rd mag there isn't much to grip to rip it out.  especially if it gets caught up for whatever reason. 

Okay, that's what I was worried about. I was just hoping not to have to buy another 20 cause ever since I bought the 30's my 20 has been relegated to holding my Snap Caps