standing and sitting easy, but prone is a struggle.

[KjellKod]

My two oldest kids are big fans of the Appleseed events. One of them has scored rifleman and the other one is working up to it.

Standing and sitting he's getting solid scores and for prone he's all over the place. (on paper but not consistent).

Things we have ruled out.
1. trigger control & breathing-- amazing trigger control and shooting at respiratory pause. (also sitting and standing would fall apart if this didn't work).

2. npoa shifts. For sitting and standing ^ works. It's hard to "see" through the eyes of the young teenager but at least from a viewpoint it looks like there's npoa shifts happening.

I think I'm dealing with the following, and I'm curious to your thoughts if it's something else that I should look into. The kid in question is gettin really frustrated -- for rabbit hunting, he does headshots at 15-20y distance but can't get the same shot in prone.

A) npoa still -- muscle vs body movement? Is it "actual" npoa changes?
B) he's a right-handed, shooting left eyed due to left eyed dominance. Maybe the awkwardness of the "leftie" is messing up the prone position? I'm considering trying out shooting right eyed for a while with him.
C) Sling -- "maybe" the sling isn't positioned so the arm is completely relaxed, while it looks good he says the scope moves around a lot.
D) "body fit" to the stock. I haven't experienced with a shorter stock, maybe that could bring better control. it doesn't look too long now but something's wrong.

Other instructors have looked and so far we just don't know.
Sometimes the group are thumbnail-sized tights and other times we have big spreads.

[KjellKod]

We watched https://appleseedinfo.org/academy/coaching-for-success/ together. The kid spotted himself most issues. While it still doesn't. help us, it is good to know he's aware and observant on these things.

[Cleveland]

Several quick things to check while I get unpacked from a weekend away.

Makes sure the scope is set at a low magnification, 3-4x. High magnification can cause fussing the shot.

Sling, make sure it is high in the armpit to give that good triangle of stability.

Stock, I have had good luck with shorter stocks for youth shooters.

Make sure they are getting a good check weld.

IF you have them try shooing right handed. Cover the left lens of their shooting glasses with Scotch Magic tape or similar to help them shoot from the non-dominate eye.

I hope this helps.

[La Victoire Ailee (Timothy_D)]

Take a look at the arm angles in prone.
My smallbore coach pointed out that I tended to use steep angles. He suggested a 30 degree angle (forearm to ground).
By doing that, I was able to get off of the point of the elbow (bursa) and rest just behind it.
In addition to being more stable, it took the stress of of my mildly arthritic shoulder.
The down side is that the loop sling might tend to walk down the arm if it's not set extremely tight. It's one of the reasons that I went with a no pulse service loop sling.

[Prescott]

To provide a potential diagnosis, I need to know a little bit more about the shooter and his equipment.

Can you provide some more info on your son, such as height, weight, strength and age.  Also, please provide some info on the rifle he is shooting, such as make, model, sighting system, ect...

Initially, my diagnosis leads to two potential issues.  The first is length of pull / eye relief / cheek weld issue if he is shooting a scoped stock Ruger 10/22.   The second is NPOA.   You can quickly diagnose any NPOA issues by carding the sights with him.

My younger son would not verify his NPOA in prone as he was on the path to rifleman.  It took a couple sessions at the range while I was carding his sights to get him to perfect his NPOA.

[Eagle Keeper]

What are talking targets telling you?

High magnification on the scope during dry fire & what does the movement of the crosshairs look like?

Use a simple laser to see the movement on target.

Use a Mantis system to see what's happening during dry fire & live fire.

[KjellKod]

@eagle keeper
I like that. I had already ordered a laser for a dummy practice rifle and putting it on that

@prescott
Shooting a Bergara bxr, scope 2-7x Leupold rimfire. Scope magnification typically at 4x.

Length of pull seems good. I had another instructor double check it.

We just came back from an Appleseed where carding the sights were part of our weekend (as it should). I didn't do it myself with him but will do it now + with the laser once it comes.

Height 5.7,
Weight 138

[Charles McKinley]

Is the scope far enough forward for good turkey neck in prone?

If his sling isn't snug he has to use muscle to hold himself and the rifle up.

[9mm4545]

All of the above suggestions are valid. As the targets get ever smaller NPOA becomes ever more critical and the ability to fully relax is key to reducing wobble. If the rifle isn't well fitted this becomes tough so stock buildups and scope mounting should be looked at closely.

One thing I found that improved my groups was the use of a homemade lens reducer to help improve consistency in sight alignment. Basically, it forces the eye to center on the reticle. Here is an example: https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t9472-lens-reducer. I made my own but there are commercial models available for certain scopes. On occasion I encounter students whose scope is too far back and can't be moved forward so that they have scope shadowing if they turkey neck. As long as the scope shadow is consistent and even around the edges of the ocular with the crosshairs centered, it can be made to work and I find it to be more successful than trying to "turtle neck", which induces much muscle tension and a sore neck.

[Gus]

KjellKod,

I too have sons that like Appleseed. My youngest, when he was 16, was a challenge. At the time I thought his problem was he shot too fast, definitely not Rifleman's Cadence.  Also, I believed his follow through was suspect. This was at his first two clinics. Turned out that he was discounting the importance of NPOA.

Patience and persistence worked for both of us. I finally figured out his NPOA issue by carding the sights. Bingo! A year later, Once he committed to the ideals of solid position, the six steps and NPOA, he got it. Now he's 22 years old and distinguished on the 25 meter course and Rifleman in KD (rimfire and Centerfire).

It will click for your son and before you know he'll be right there with you.

In Liberty,

Gus

[KjellKod]

Thanks . Great advice that I'll be going over with the kid, a step at a time.

[Charles McKinley]

 
Pics of him in position would help identify infuse with the position and the rifle.

A Pinty green laser is $25 on Amazon.  If you cowitness it at 25m you can watch what he is doing on the target.  Making videos of the laser on the target an his position can allow you to both watch and diagnose issues.

The laser allows you to watch and see if he is actually getting his NPOA or muscling it.

[Two Mikes]

Try putting a patch over his right eye when he is shooting.  He may be switching between eyes while shooting.

[KjellKod]

We are making progress. Having a wooden dummy laser-pointer training rifle is paying off. We only take it out now and then but comparing steadiness with each other and using a phone to record it is helpful -