What is your KD rifle of choice?

[Nightpoison]

One other option I've been looking at is the mini14, but with an Accuracy Systems upgrade. It seems like a lot of happy customers and they offer a number of conversions; 17 Rem, 204 Ruger, 222 Rem, 223 Rem, 5.56 NATO, 6.5 Grendel, 6MM ARC, 22ARC, 22 NOSLER

I would prob go with a 223 Wylde or the 224 Valkyrie.

[Fulcrum]

Thanks for the link, while they are an interesting option, they do not look good. Haha. Anyone sell the receiver/stock separate? I wouldn't be opposed to building one out with my own parts if that is even an option.

The only one that sells the lower receiver and stock on its own and is compatible with most AR uppers is FightLite. They sell the SCR lower/stock alone, and you can add whatever upper you like. You can also swap out the stock for any Remington 1100 stock with some work. Here's a link to the lowers: https://fightlite.com/lowers/scr-rifle-lowers

To me, this is one of the most attractive options of the 4 I mentioned in my other thread, because of the compatibility with other parts, and you could really build it out the way you want. Of the other 3, where the whole system is proprietary, the CMMG seems the best, based on reviews.

Here's a video review of the SCR where the guy actually swaps out the included upper receiver for others he owns in other calibers and shoots various ammo types. So it really demonstrates that capability. Kind of cool. He does it mostly bench rest style, so it doesn't show how the ergonomics work with sling shooting, and maybe there are concerns about that.

[TNPatriot]

I will be attending a KD at Puyear TN in October, I plan to run my M1A,with an AR  15 BUG.

[Eagle Keeper]

USA Defense AR-15 ,with 1911 eagle grips in 6.5 Grendel.
Also a What Would Stoner Do ,retro M-16 build in 22 ARC with a 3-9 Mil-Dot scope and an extra 22LR conversion.

[AF5US]

My first successful KD was with an M1A, and I still love it.  If your eyesight will support it, it's a great option.  The Garand is, of course, very similar.  I think the only extra challenge with the Garand is that it doesn't have the shoulder brace, so recoil may be a bit more challenging.  That said, plenty of people have done it.

There are pros and cons to any platform.  I've worked a number of KD events and just speaking at a very high level - the AR-15 type rifle tends to be a little flatter shooting for most people, although this has a lot to do with the height over bore.  The .308 type rifles are generally not as bothered by the wind as much, which may or may not be a consideration.

Just my $0.02

[Nightpoison]

I guess an update is in order. I attended my first KD a few weeks back. Ended up 46/50, earning my patch.

All I had was my AR build. Wasn't comfortable, but it got the job done.

[AF5US]

 

[TNPatriot]

Well ,the KD is upon us. Got my M1A back from Springfield.  Replaced the mainspring guide with a SADLAK NM and the spring as well.  Shimmed the gas block about .030. Did a little bedding on the stock. Replaced the rear sight aperture with an .052 NM and bedded its rails to remove any slop. Polished the trigger and hammer engagements and got the pull to about 4.5 lbs. I think its about as good as a STANDARD MODEL is going to get. WE SHALL SEE.....looking forward to Saturday, if your coming to Puryear, I ll see ya there.     

[Gus]

Good Luck this weekend.  It appears you've done quite a bit of work to that M1A.  I've seen some videos on youtube on how to accurize a standard M1A. The videos make it look easy. How easy/difficult was it?

I'm looking forward to your report on this!

Out of curiosity, what load/ammo do you plan on using?

Gus

[TNPatriot]

Not hard at all if it runs like it should.  THe Main spring guide comes off when you field strip it so replacing it is just putting the other one it.  same with the main spring.  Shimming the gas block was simple enough.  I measured the gap with feeler gauges and stacked shims close to that and then adjusted after initial fit, then put it all back together.  THe difference was huge, it took all the slop out of the front of the stock where it goes over the stock ferrule.  This way the gun is not "floating" around in the stock.  the plastic stock has no actual stock liner, so i built it up with some glass bedding.  The totality was a significant increase in the overall accuracy.  Well worth the work and not much money. The trigger work was just polishing the contact points with a soft stone and some jewelers rouge and lapping compound.   

[TNPatriot]

Ammo, I Normally run nothing but my own handloads, but I didnt have enough loaded for this event so I ordered some Saltec Swiss Precision ammo.  Tested it out and it runs well and is very accurate. Not what i like but it will do.  I am still bringing a box of 100 handloaded precision rounds for the 400 yard.  Ive used these rounds out to 750 with great results. 

[Gus]

I think you'll have a great time at the KD. Most of the participants will be running AR-15s I'm guessing, so, be prepared for a lot of questions about your M1A!

Good Luck and I'm looking forward to hearing all about your weekend.

If I may offer a couple bits of advice:
1. Write down all your DOPE. Especially if you are going to use different ammo for the 400 yard target.
2. Wind calls. Your .308 is much better in the wind than, say, 55 gr 5.56 ammo. But if wind is full value at 15-20 mph, it'll drift your .30 cal bullets out of the black. Please review and heed Fred's Simplified Wind Rule: "If the wind is strong enough you are concerned about it, hold into the wind 3 MOA at 300 yards and 5 MOA at 500 yards" Of course this also means 4 MOA at 400.

In Liberty,

Gus

[TNPatriot]

LOL.....with my old man eyes, I may end up on an AR 15 myself, taking a scoped AR as BUG.  but i am making every effort to successfully shoot it with the M1A!

[TNPatriot]

Well Gus, I ran the M1A day one and hit Morgans shingle. By the end of the day, it was clear that I wouldnt be successful with the iron sights and my vision so today i caved and ran my AR,  Out the three AQTs today I scored a 41 and a 43 so overall it was great but I would like to have done with the M1A.  Maybe after LASIK.......   

[Gus]

Nice! 

I'm glad you gave it a go with the M1A.

And congratulations on a couple of fine scores!

In Liberty,

Gus

[AdmiralKirk]

I'm tempted to run a FAL.  I have an ARS build (West German Parts kit on an Imbel Receiver) that is about 1.5MOA with Gold Medal Match ammo.  However it only cycles Gold Medal Match ammo. 

[TNPatriot]

IDe love o run one with an FAL, if its finicky bout ammo, you might try the SALTECH swiss match, SGAmmo has it and its pretty awesome, the only down side is its only 147 grain.

[LDB415]

I know this is an older thread recently brought back. Now that I'm thinking 25M rimfire this has me thinking KD too. But I really don't like recoil. So as much as I would LOVE to have a Garand that is off the recoil chart for me. I'd have to stick with something in a .2xx caliber. Is a semi-auto required? preferred? helpful? I'd also like to have an old school fixed stock AR with the carry handle and wood furniture. Anyway, for someone totally, yes, totally clueless, recommendations of rifle, sighting system, ammo, stuff I don't know enough to even ask?

[TNPatriot]

If recoil is an issue, idE run an AR Platform, I ran the last one day one with M1A and while i loved running it, IT was clear by the end of the day I wasnt going to qual with iron sights, my old man eyes are just not up to it, so day two i ran an AR with a scope. I think a semi auto is to your advantage, im not saying you cant do it with a bolt gun or something else, but with the mag changes/reloads and the position changes throughout the course of fire, the semi autos save a lot of time and seconds count on the timed events.

[LDB415]

Best sources for an AR and best choices to look into?

[TNPatriot]

The AR is so over the top, BEST is a matter of opinion. if you want one that will shoot well and work for this event without going broke, IDe say PSA is the best option.  IF you want something a little MORE< ide buy a kit from M&A parts and build it on any decent quality lower. IF you want OVER THE TOP< go buy a DANIEL DEFENSE> 

[LDB415]

Magazines? Are shorter magazines more user friendly, especially if prone? How many rounds are needed for a KD? Is policing brass allowed to have once fired for reloading? What's a good but not most expensive on the shelf ammo? I'd be saving up and getting a "store bought" rifle and ammo to start with. I was born with two left thumbs so I don't build my own. 

[DEH]

I prefer 20 round mags as for me the 30 round mags are too long. Brass collection is range dependent but usually allowed.

I've shot KD successfully with reloads, Eastern European steel cased, Wolf steel cased.  I would recommend commonly available M193 or any commercial .223 55 or 62 grain.  No need to go fancy.

Your other question can be answered here:
https://appleseedinfo.org/how-to-prepare/

A little down the page are the downloadable guides for known distance, etc.

[Mrs. Smith]

Once you've shot your 25m event, you'll have a better idea what you need in a centerfire rifle.  The strings of fire are exactly the same, just at actual distances instead of simulated. 

So yes, 10rd magazines will be better, particularly in prone. 20s aren't too bad, though, and may be easier to find. At least two. Having one that's a different size than the others will help when it comes to stages 2 and 3.

Policing brass is common. Unless the range has some rule against it (rare, but not impossible) the desire of shooters to collect their brass is generally taken into consideration at some point. I know I save mine.

I do recommend a magnified optic of some kind. I don't know about you but I don't see as well as I used to. 6 or 8x is plenty for most folks.

No fancy ammunition required.  I've qualified with 55gr 223 Remington and I've qualified with 75gr fancy stuff. As long as it's not garbage (like reloads done by someone who doesn't know what they're doing) you should be able to perform with just about anything. Make sure you get enough of the same brand, and lot if possible, to get you through the weekend.  300-ish rounds for a two-day event.

The whole idea is to use standard equipment and solid skills.

To paraphrase Maximum Ordinate, Rack grade rifle + standard commercial ammo + rock solid fundamentals = hits on target out to 500 yards

As TNPatriot pointed out, a Palmetto State Armory AR platform is plenty good enough for most people's needs. They're a perfectly viable option, especially for a person's first AR, at a very reasonable price point.  That company was founded with one primary purpose in mind: to help put affordable AR-15s in the hands of every law-abiding American.  That's a worthy goal.  Keep an eye on the Palmetto State Armory Deals thread on our Deals and Steals board. And please, use the links provided. The program gets a modest kickback from purchases using those links.

[TNPatriot]

My lat shoot i used 20 in the beginning but they were too light and wouldnt drop free.  IT was costing me time so I switched to 30 metal mags so they would drop free. It doenst seem like much, but on a timed event it can cost you rounds and thats points off your score.  After that event I installed a BAD lever because loading in prone I had to come out of position to hit the ping pong paddle.  Now, with the BAD lever I dont have to reach over the weapon or change position to drop the bolt. All of those little things add up on time. 

[Fulcrum]

I know this is an older thread recently brought back. Now that I'm thinking 25M rimfire this has me thinking KD too. But I really don't like recoil. So as much as I would LOVE to have a Garand that is off the recoil chart for me. I'd have to stick with something in a .2xx caliber. Is a semi-auto required? preferred? helpful? I'd also like to have an old school fixed stock AR with the carry handle and wood furniture. Anyway, for someone totally, yes, totally clueless, recommendations of rifle, sighting system, ammo, stuff I don't know enough to even ask?

I've seen your many posts with questions about your .22LR rifle for your first 25n event and now questions about centerfire rifles for a KD. I love your enthusiasm and all of the questions! It's great you are asking, and I asked a lot of questions before my first event too.

One thing I tend to do though when I first start something new is to dive in, and before I've done the first step, I'm already thinking about the next step, and the next, and the next... I've made some mistakes that way by getting ahead of myself and buying things before I have the experience to make a better decision. I've had regrets, because with a limited budget, I can't really afford to buy things I don't need just because I got excited and over-enthusiastic.

How soon is your 25m event? And have you purchased everything you need for that? You might want to attend that event, get your rimfire setup dialed in, see how it works and if you want to make any changes, see if there are any lessons learned, and get that experience under your belt before actually buying a centerfire rifle and optics, etc. for a future KD. There may even be shooters there with their centerfire rifles, and you can take a look and ask questions about their setups. Also, a full 400yd KD is not necessarily the next step after a 25m event. If there is one in your area, you can also attend a 200yd Rimfire Known Distance (RKD) using the same rimfire rifle you are setting up for your 25m event. I'm looking forward to doing that myself.

Anyway, I'm just throwing it out there for your consideration. Have a great time with your Appleseed events and setting up your rifle(s)!

[LDB415]

Yes, all good points and pretty accurate. I tend to jump in feet first. But I do plan to wait a while on the "getting" phase. Not so much, obviously, on the "inquiring" phase. And disliking heat about as much as recoil my April 25M may be my last outdoor adventure until late October or November when some events look interesting. I'm also hoping Hempstead schedules more in the interim as it's definitely more conveniently located.

[Fulcrum]

That sounds like a great plan to me. I love asking questions too.

I already have purchased a rifle I will use for a 400yd KD, even though there are none scheduled locally, I'm not sure when I'll have the opportunity, and I'd like to do the 200yd Rimfire KD first. So I'm a little ahead of myself! But the timing of my purchase was more related to availability of the gun, which doesn't come into stock very often, and not that I felt like I was ready to use it at a KD. I bought it because it was finally in stock. And the type of rifle I bought might not be an ideal KD rifle, but I had other considerations, and this gun is not just for shooting a KD.

I bought a Fightlite SCR. It's a rifle that takes AR15 uppers, but the lower has a traditional rifle stock. The reason I chose it is I'm in a state with restrictions on semi-autos with removable box magazines, and they have to be "featureless". That means no adjustable buttstocks, which it sounds like you prefer. But it also means no AR-style pistol grips, so people comply by adding fin grips or other odd grips to their ARs. Even though an AR is probably the recommended KD rifle, I don't like the weird accommodations on the grips that I would have to do to make it legal. Instead, I went with this traditional rifle stock as my solution. We will see how it works. Like I said, this is not just for KDs, but I can't afford a bunch of rifles, so it will be what I use if I attend one. Shoot what you have!

I'm not in a position to recommend this rifle for a KD, because I've only barely test fired it, and I haven't fully set it up yet or tried any Appleseed techniques. But here's a link to help explain what it is. https://fightlite.com/scr-16-fdmt

[LDB415]

That sounds like a great plan to me. I love asking questions too.

I already have purchased a rifle I will use for a 400yd KD, even though there are none scheduled locally, I'm not sure when I'll have the opportunity, and I'd like to do the 200yd Rimfire KD first. So I'm a little ahead of myself! But the timing of my purchase was more related to availability of the gun, which doesn't come into stock very often, and not that I felt like I was ready to use it at a KD. I bought it because it was finally in stock. And the type of rifle I bought might not be an ideal KD rifle, but I had other considerations, and this gun is not just for shooting a KD.

I bought a Fightlite SCR. It's a rifle that takes AR15 uppers, but the lower has a traditional rifle stock. The reason I chose it is I'm in a state with restrictions on semi-autos with removable box magazines, and they have to be "featureless". That means no adjustable buttstocks, which it sounds like you prefer. But it also means no AR-style pistol grips, so people comply by adding fin grips or other odd grips to their ARs. Even though an AR is probably the recommended KD rifle, I don't like the weird accommodations on the grips that I would have to do to make it legal. Instead, I went with this traditional rifle stock as my solution. We will see how it works. Like I said, this is not just for KDs, but I can't afford a bunch of rifles, so it will be what I use if I attend one. Shoot what you have!

I'm not in a position to recommend this rifle for a KD, because I've only barely test fired it, and I haven't fully set it up yet or tried any Appleseed techniques. But here's a link to help explain what it is. https://fightlite.com/scr-16-fdmt

That's an interesting rifle! I've never seen or heard of it until now. It's definitely unique and fills the needs and requirements you are governed by.

I'm wondering if (m)any Ruger Mini-14's are used for KD as that's a rifle I'd like to have but can't justify yet. I especially like the 50th anniversary model with all wood furniture. But I think they're known for less ideal accuracy so probably not the best choice to have a chance at a patch. I'm looking forward to hearing updates when you've given your new rifle a workout. Congrats on getting something you've been wanting.

[Fulcrum]

That's an interesting rifle! I've never seen or heard of it until now. It's definitely unique and fills the needs and requirements you are governed by.

I'm wondering if (m)any Ruger Mini-14's are used for KD as that's a rifle I'd like to have but can't justify yet. I especially like the 50th anniversary model with all wood furniture. But I think they're known for less ideal accuracy so probably not the best choice to have a chance at a patch. I'm looking forward to hearing updates when you've given your new rifle a workout. Congrats on getting something you've been wanting.

Thanks! I'm looking forward to getting it set up and trying it out more thoroughly. The SCR is in a class of rifles that some refer to as "ranch rifles", and they are one way that people in "ban states" can have a compliant semi-auto rifle with a removable box magazine by having a traditional stock. Others are the CMMG BR4, Sig MCX Regulator, Foxtrot Mike Ranch Rifle, and a few others. I've never heard of anyone using any of these for an Appleseed, so in interested in seeing how well it works and will definitely report back.

The Mini-14 is the original ranch rifle and is the rifle the others I mentioned take the term from. I have talked to a few people about the Mini-14, and they pretty much say it's a fun rifle and has a nice Garand-style nostalgia, but it's not great for Appleseed. It's not accurate enough. One of the people at one of the 25m events brought his Mini-14, and he did qualify using it, but he said he had spent more money upgrading it than the rifle had cost originally, and it was a labor of love, not a practical thing to do. He did not recommend going the route with the intention of qualifying.