Scope recommendations for KD AR

[Captain America]

Hey all, I'm thinking about giving my colored hat a break for a weekend later this year and signing up as a student for KD, as I've never done anything like that before. What kind of a scope for my AR would give my old eyes the best chance of success at a KD?

[Monkey]

Hey all, I'm thinking about giving my colored hat a break for a weekend later this year and signing up as a student for KD, as I've never done anything like that before. What kind of a scope for my AR would give my old eyes the best chance of success at a KD?

Any good glass will get you there.

FWIW - Clan Monkey has run two Primary Arms 1x6 ACSS reticle scopes, link here

Using the Appleseed Instructor Discount via ExpertVoice, we've also run a Diamondback Tactical EBR-2C(MOA).  Very clear picture at 16x magnification, to at least 800 yards.

Each of the scopes are great for the money.  In the spirit of transparency, I've become a huge fan of the ACSS reticle, but anything small past 500 yards gets a bit challenging.

Hope this helps.

[TrapperPete]

I did fine with a 3-9x50 I have also taken a 2-7x32 to 400 both work well.

both the 3-9 and the 2-7 were vortex cross-fireII it is a decent budget rifle scope at about $150 , I like the Nikon p-series 2 piece mounts as they allow you to get the scope where you need it and are reversible if you you need one forward and one back it is not an issue

many will work this is just my preference and good value for the dollar.

I do like my vortex diamond back tactical 4-12x40 VMR-1 recital nice for ranging but isn't really needed and doubles the cost of entry.

[Tennessee Beast]

I liked my Primary Arms 4.5-14x44mm FFP mil dot scope so much I bought another one.  I used it last week at 600 yards with no problems. https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-4-14x44mm-riflescope-mil-dot-pa4-14xffp

Reviewed here  https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/10/foghorn/gear-review-primary-arms-4-14x44-mil-dot-ffp-scope/

[Captain America]

Monkey, since I'm a brand new red hat, how do we get a discount on vortex? How do I sign up?
And for all, at the danger of exposing my ignorance, how in layman's terms does the mil dot differ from the MOA scopes that I'm more familiar with?

[Tennessee Beast]

See this thread for the answer to your first question. 
https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=52846.msg353167#msg353167


The answer to the other question is "it is just a different way to measure angles".  Here is an article on it.  https://www.snipercountry.com/mrad-vs-moa/

Another question you need to answer for yourself is "do I want a First Focal Plane" or Second Focal Plane" scope?

[Lomshek]

Monkey, since I'm a brand new red hat, how do we get a discount on vortex? How do I sign up?
And for all, at the danger of exposing my ignorance, how in layman's terms does the mil dot differ from the MOA scopes that I'm more familiar with?

A mil-dot scope's reticle has these dots 1 mil apart from each other to make compensating for drop and windage easy.



If you're not familiar with it at all here's an explanation.
https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/mil-dot-made-easy/

Personally I'd rather go with something like the ACSS Raptor reticle that gives you some wind holds as well at each BDC point.



https://www.primaryarms.com/pa-1-6x24mm-ffp-illuminated-rifle-scope-with-acss-raptor-556-reticle-black

Plenty of other companies have something like the Raptor "Christmas tree" style reticle that work too.

To get the discounts on Vortex you create an account on Expertvoice.com, sign up as an Appleseed instructor and select the Shooting sports experts or shooting sports instructors affiliation, upload a jpg of your instructor credentials and watch the Vortex videos. Bam!

https://www.expertvoice.com/

[RedLeg]

I've run both a Trijicon AccuPower 1-4x and a fixed 4x Trijicon ACOG with good success.  I'd say any quality glass of 4x or more should be fine.

[Super Trooper]

I own four Athlon Midas BTR 2.5-15x50 MOA scopes.  They were clearenced out last fall and a gen 2 with zero stop turrets are not out yet.  The glass is better than the Vortex PST, but not a good as the PST gen 2 which cost about double the Midas BTR.

[SteelThunder]

At the risk of sounding like a heretic:

Shooters OVERGLASS THEIR RIFLES (they also over-caliber their rifles, but that's a story for another rant).  You don't need a 18X scope to shoot at 400 meters...if magnification is good, more must be better, right?  In fact, it's just the opposite.  It is worse to have a high magnification scope...all it does is just accentuate the normal movement of the rifle at distance.  4X is PLENTY at 400 (it really isn't that far away).  You're not trying to make out the exact curve of the numeral 5 to see if the printing was perfect or not...you're trying to get a reasonable sight picture with the cross hair in the middle of the target.  Higher magnification actually makes that MORE difficult, not less. 

CMP rules state no more than 4.5X out to 600 and my narrow experience shooting at Perry says that is plenty.  If you have any fantasy at all about shooting at the National Matches (and really, who WOULDN'T want to?), then I'd stick with a 4X or less scope.  Plenty of options, very reasonably priced.  Leupold, Vortex, Primary Arms, Bushnell, Nikon, Burris all make scopes that are excellent (<$500 for all and many closer to $300).

Easiest way to think about mils.  0.1 mil = 0.36 MOA or about a third of an MOA.  3 clicks of a mil scope is equivalent to an MOA.  The Leupold AR Mod-1 I'm currently running on my CMP Service Rifle is .1 mil clicks.  I'd prefer 1/4 MOA but I'm not a good enough shot for it to matter

[scuzzy]

Reasonably priced 5x ACOG type of scope with ACSS from Primary Arms review:

https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=52386.0

For a little more magnification - 8x - see this review:

https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=54817.0

I like the 5x best though.

[devilkitty]

At the risk of sounding like a heretic:

Shooters OVERGLASS THEIR RIFLES (they also over-caliber their rifles, but that's a story for another rant).

Count me in the heresy.

I agree with our esteemed Warlord of the West on magnification. Magnification helps you get your NPOA on the target. Once you have that, position, NPOA, and six steps do the rest.
I shot my first 25m rifleman score with a fixed 10x. Could I do it again? Sure. Would I? Probably not. It's far easier to "own your wobble" when it's less apparent.

[Super Trooper]

To followup Steel's post, here is a great scope on sale.  It's not CMP Service Rifle legal, the replacement coming out next month will be, but great glass for the price.  The turrets under the caps are able to zero.

https://cameralandny.com/shop/Athlon-Optics-Athlon-Midas-BTR-1-6x24-ATSR1-SFP-IR-MOA-213012--Scopecoat-Bundle-MBTRSC/3c268100-175d-0137-8b7d-00163e6c3713?variation=1911756&query=athlon%20midas

I agree about over magnification on scopes.  At the KD I shot last year I had the 2.5-15 and didn't used the top half of the magnification range out to 400.  Being part of the over 40 crowd I do like higher quality glass and coatings as my eyes get older which has nothing to do with magnification.

[dwarven1]

4X is PLENTY at 400 (it really isn't that far away).  You're not trying to make out the exact curve of the numeral 5 to see if the printing was perfect or not...you're trying to get a reasonable sight picture with the cross hair in the middle of the target.  Higher magnification actually makes that MORE difficult, not less. 

What he said. I shot my KD Rifleman score with an old 1" steel tube Weaver V7 on my AR-15. I doubt I cranked the magnification past 4x even shooting at 400 yards.

I don't know about you, but I keep having to tell my students to turn that magnification DOWN. All they do is twitch if they crank it up to 9 when they see their heartbeat magnified in the scope!

[SteelThunder]

 :partytime:Yea, I'm not a heretic!!!

Some good options, based on what I've seen on the Service Rifle line:

Nightforce 4.5X Service Rifle scope  http://nightforceoptics.com/competition/4.5x24
Beautiful scope, the "standard", stupid expensive (~$1900)

March 1-4.5X http://marchoptics.com/shop/brand_march-optics/secondfocalplane/1-4-and-a-halfx24mm-scope
Again, purpose built, even more stupid expensive (~$2400)

SDI Bresser Condor 1-4X  https://www.jarheadtop.com/SDI%20Optical%20SRS%20and%20Mount%20Features.html
Jim Owens recommended, illuminated, circle-cross reticle.  Oz has one and they are pretty nices especially for the ~$200 price

Leupold scopes
Mark AR Mod 1 -- What John Hollinger at  WOA was recommending/selling for quite a while.  I'm running one...nicely priced (<$300) and great glass
They have a new VX 4.5HD that is supposed to be all that but it is pretty expensive (~$1200)  https://www.leupold.com/scopes/rifle-scopes/vx-4-5hd-service-rifle-1-4-5x24mm

Hi-Lux 1-4X XTC -- https://hi-luxoptics.com/products/hi-lux-across-the-course-xtc14x34-competition-rifle-scope
Purpose-built service rifle scope.  Every feature of the Nightforce/March but $475.  Only thing I've heard is that the turret ratchets may not be as durable as the expensive scopes.

Lots of other good options -- Vortex PST Gen 1 and 2 1-4X.  They are stand bys.  The Primary Arms line -- people may scoff but I've found them to have excellent glass, be durable/repeatable.  And a great value.

Don't skimp on the mount.  Freedom Reaper mounts are recognized as top of the line, low height over bore axis.  ~$150.

Tons of other

[devilkitty]

SDI 1-4X  https://www.jarheadtop.com/SDI%20Optical%20SRS%20and%20Mount%20Features.html
Jim Owens recommended, illuminated, circle-cross reticle.  Oz has one and they are pretty nices especially for the ~$200 price

I bought one of Owens' mount and scope packages with the Bresser Condor 1-4x for my CAR-A3 last year. Excellent value for the money ($325, IIRC). The red dot is bright enough for daytime use and clicks are solid. Added bonus: the German #4 reticle isn't too busy, and the red dot is great if you're having a bad day focusing on the reticle - turning the dot on makes step 4A a lot easier.

[PaleRider]

I, personally, would stay away from ACSS or any BDC reticles unless you have accurate data on your ammunition in relation to the length of your barrel. Those reticles are specific for bullet weight, powder type and charge, and barrel length. Use MOA or Mildot reticles and use the KD to build your DOPE for your specific rifle. The first day will help you get that DOPE, so if you don't have it ahead of time, you'll acquire it then. Just my 2 cents from experience.
Tim

[pblanc]

Well, I shot a KD Appleseed last year with my AR and qualified.  For what it is worth, I used a Nikon P-Tactical 223 4-12X40 rifle scope.  We shot out to 500 yards.  Sure, for 100 yards standing I dialed it down to 4X but at 500 yards I used 12X magnification and was glad to have it.  Nikon scopes may not be the best, but offer pretty good optical clarity and function for their price range.

I think how much magnification is optimal depends on your eyes and the steadiness with which you can hold.  I can hold reasonably hard prone with a sling and found the extra magnification to be helpful and not a distraction.  I was able to put 5 out of 5 shots in the black at 500 yards.  Maybe I would have done as well or better with less magnification, but I did not feel that 12X magnification hurt me in any way.  Yes, I know those high-power shooters at Camp Perry can shoot out to 600 yards and beyond with a 4.5X scope.  I ain't one of them.

I have a pair of the Nikon P-rings and found that they did not provide quite enough forward extension to mount my scope where I wanted it on my AR.  I use pretty much a nose-to-charging handle cheek weld and have the ocular lens of the scope mounted about an inch forward of the rear end of the charging handle.  The P rings did not quite get it there but were close.  I use a one-piece cantilever scope mount.

The Nikon P-Tactical scopes do have bullet drop compensation reticles.  But I would agree with PaleRider that it is better to DOPE the scope when changing ranges than rely on the BDC, unless you have thoroughly vetted the BDC with your rifle and choice of ammunition at every range you plan to shoot.

[BamaFan7]

For an AR, it's hard to beat the Primary Arms ACSS 1-6 or 1-8. The ACSS reticle works quite well. I shot Rifleman at my first KD with my 1-6.

[Oz]

SDI 1-4X  https://www.jarheadtop.com/SDI%20Optical%20SRS%20and%20Mount%20Features.html
Jim Owens recommended, illuminated, circle-cross reticle.  Oz has one and they are pretty nices especially for the ~$200 price

I bought one of Owens' mount and scope packages with the Bresser Condor 1-4x for my CAR-A3 last year. Excellent value for the money ($325, IIRC). The red dot is bright enough for daytime use and clicks are solid. Added bonus: the German #4 reticle isn't too busy, and the red dot is great if you're having a bad day focusing on the reticle - turning the dot on makes step 4A a lot easier.

It is shamefully inexpensive--something like $137 at OpticsPlanets, I think the Freedom Reaper scope mount was more.   I liked it a lot at Camp Perry out to 600, 4x was plenty (and my eyes are terrible).  I also found the reticle, with its central dot, was excellent for shooting at rondel targets.  Centering a dot inside a circle was fast and intuitive.

[Fynn]

I LOVE my Bresser Condor

[AJ Gonzales]

Primary arms 3x ACSS is just about perfect for AS style shooting.

Clear, very practical reticle, robust, won't break the bank, illuminated for more uhh... interesting... shooting situations.

It's really a great piece of kit.

[HammBone]

I did my first KD as a shooter last Fall. From experience, I knew I needed the optical help at 400 yards as my eyes don't resolve the bullseye well at that distance. I also shoot service rifle matches so was limited to 4.5X. That turned out to be PLENTY even out to 600 yards. The scope I chose was a very reasonably priced ($175) Nikon P223 1.5-4.5x20 with a BDC reticle on a Freedom Reaper forward mount ($100). The rifle I shot was a standard 20" Colt AR15-A4 and I used cheap, Federal 55 grain FMJ.

I started out not trusting the BDC so went through the several hours of doping the rifle. In the end, the BDC was damned close and the dope followed the normal 2-2-3-4-5 rule of thumb for come-ups out to 600 yards.

I shot 5 out of 5 Rifleman scores: 224, 233, 237, 238, 225

YMMV

Mitch

[Shooter30-06]

I'm another who endorses Nikon glass.  I've repeatedly qualified KD with a Nikon P-223 Carbine scope with the fixed 3x.  Someone said above that you do not need high magnification even out to 400 or 500 yards and they are correct.  The Nikon scope base does nor work loose with repeated firing and the scope returns to zero after dialing in come-ups.  This is not an expensive scope but it works.

[SteelThunder]

Tell you what...that new Athlon that Super Trooper discusses looks to be the cat's pajamas in a Service Rifle scope.  Same MSRP as the Hi-Lux, similar features, with a few that I like better (side parallax adjustment). 

4.5X max mag, adj parallax, illuminated circle cross reticle, 1/4 MOA click, zero stop, 30 mm tube.  Wow.

https://athlonoptics.com/product/helos-btr-1-4-5x24-atsr3-sfp-ir-moa/

Anyone have experience with Athlon glass?

To followup Steel's post, here is a great scope on sale.  It's not CMP Service Rifle legal, the replacement coming out next month will be, but great glass for the price.  The turrets under the caps are able to zero.

https://cameralandny.com/shop/Athlon-Optics-Athlon-Midas-BTR-1-6x24-ATSR1-SFP-IR-MOA-213012--Scopecoat-Bundle-MBTRSC/3c268100-175d-0137-8b7d-00163e6c3713?variation=1911756&query=athlon%20midas

I agree about over magnification on scopes.  At the KD I shot last year I had the 2.5-15 and didn't used the top half of the magnification range out to 400.  Being part of the over 40 crowd I do like higher quality glass and coatings as my eyes get older which has nothing to do with magnification.

[Super Trooper]

I own five Athlon scopes, love the glass for the dollar.  I've replaced a Leupold VX3i for an Athlon Midas because the difference was that great. 

The new Helos BTR 1-4.5×24 service rifle scope is per-orderable everywhere for $399, and if you call CameralandNY they will price it at $369 and free priority shipping.  First batch has been delayed to Late May.

Steel, do you want me to bring one to HBC in a few weeks?

Edit: I forgot about one, I own five Athlon scopes.

[devilkitty]

The new Helos BTR 1-4.5×24 service rifle scope is per-orderable everywhere for $399, and if you call CameralandNY they will price it at $369 and free priority shipping.  First batch has been delayed to Late May.

Steel, do you want me to bring one to HBC in a few weeks?

Not ST2, but yes. I would like to see an Athlon "in the flesh".

[SteelThunder]

Terrell -- have you ever done a box test with yours?  That would be my only other concern -- repeatability of the turret ratchets.

I own four Athlon scopes, love the glass for the dollar.  I've replaced a Leupold VX3i for an Athlon Midas because the difference was that great. 

The new Helos BTR 1-4.5×24 service rifle scope is per-orderable everywhere for $399, and if you call CameralandNY they will price it at $369 and free priority shipping.  First batch has been delayed to Late May.

Steel, do you want me to bring one to HBC in a few weeks?

[Super Trooper]

Terrell -- have you ever done a box test with yours?  That would be my only other concern -- repeatability of the turret ratchets.

I've done ladder tracking, but not a box test.  Online reviews have though.

[Captain America]

I hope you guys know that you are really bad for me. Now I'm going to have to build ten new rifles, one for each optic recommended here...