"Shooting Tips" - from the old site...

[Fred]

Guilford
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    Shooting Tips
<< on: December 14, 2005, 08:25:52 AM >> Quote 

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Here are two tidbits I picked up at the KW shoot:

1.  Rapid Fire Standing:  Elevate the strong side elbow to like 60 or 70 degrees instead of 45 degrees or tucked down into your shooting jacket.

2.  If you are a righty, shoot the multiple targets right to left and not left to right.   Switch it for lefties. 

-Guilford.


Atlas Shrug
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    Re: Shooting Tips
<< Reply #1 on: December 14, 2005, 08:55:18 AM >> Quote 

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Quote from: Guilford on December 14, 2005, 08:25:52 AM
Here are two tidbits I picked up at the KW shoot:

1.  Rapid Fire Standing:  Elevate the strong side elbow to like 60 or 70 degrees instead of 45 degrees or tucked down into your shooting jacket.

Hmm.  Being a three position smallbore shooter, standing is a strong point with me (I can usually clean the standing stage of the AQT - not a brag, just a measure).  Also with my background, my strong side arm position is usually pretty low - closer to my side than most.

That said, I think that the main issue is getting the buttplate firmly and correctly placed in the shoulder moreso than the arm angle per se.  IMHO, the best way to proceed is to raise the elbow a good bit as you firmly place the butt into the shoulder (make sure it's high enough - usually the top sticks above the shoulder a bit), with rearward pressure from the firing grip.  (Note that it's usually OK to cant the rifle into your position a little as you do this.)  This is done as you are raising the muzzle and weak arm up to about 45-70 degrees (above the target).  You continue to firmly pull the butt into your shoulder as you settle the muzzle back down until it's horizontal.  As you reach this point, you can relax the weak arm and let it "hang" where it wants to.  If you've done this correctly, the butt should be fairly firmly held in the shoulder pocket - kind of "pinched" in place with the strong arm hanging as noted.  If this yields a 45 degree angle or so, fine.  If larger, fine.  The crux is that you need this good solid pocket to stay stable during the shot.  Most seem to use the high elbow position to accomplish this rather than the method I just went through.

Of course YMMV, this is just the way most smallbore shooters transition to HP, and it seems to work well for us.  The weak arm position is directly under the rifle and against the ribcage, the weak hand directly under the action where possible (I shoot a Garand, so it's easy for me - with a box mag you generally cradle around the mag in some way).

All should first experiment with this method at home w/dry fire, then try on the range.  You might like it.



Quote from: Guilford on December 14, 2005, 08:25:52 AM
2.  If you are a righty, shoot the multiple targets right to left and not left to right.   Switch it for lefties. 

-Guilford.


I'm just curious here as to why.  With proper NPOA managment either should be OK, but I'd like to know if there is some good reason for one direction versus the other that I'm not aware of.

Thanks for throwing out tips & observations!



Guilford
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    Re: Shooting Tips
<< Reply #2 on: December 14, 2005, 09:50:43 AM >> Quote 

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I've not really had a chance to try these two tips yet.

My understanding is the high elbow is to help manage recoil.

Shooting from right to left lets you swing the rifle more into your body, as Believer said into a more stable position.

-Guilford


Guilford
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    Re: Shooting Tips
<< Reply #3 on: December 14, 2005, 10:49:30 AM >> Quote 

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Another tip:  When shooting the aqt  make sure you confirm you 400 yard sight settings.  They are really, really important.  (preaching to the choir, right?).

I know this , becauause on the classifier I shot a 9 standing, 8 sitting, 9 prone and a 0 prone slow fire.  And stupid me, I didn't spend the sighters working on my 400 yard settings....   The target told me what to do, and I ignored it.

It would be nice, but not necessary, if I could learn without humiliating myself.

--Guilford


fred
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      Re: Shooting Tips
<< Reply #4 on: December 14, 2005, 03:28:10 PM >> Quote 

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     Guilford: Takes a BIG man, to appear before us clothed only in humility.

     As to the standing position, the message is to try some variety in positioning of the trigger elbow - what you guys are calling the 'strong arm'.

     Atlas knows what he talking about...

     Keeping the trigger elbow high, it acts like a cantilever to hang the weight of the rifle from - and also forms a pretty decent pocket. Medium or low elbow can work fine, too. It's a variable that should not take much practice to find out your likes and dislikes.

     As to the 'weak' arm, the forward arm under the rifle, I've had good results with the arm out to the side, where it tends to pull against the trigger arm, and the tension steadies the rifle down.? You drop the trigger elbow a bit to counter the 'pull' from the weak arm. This is a good position variation when the wind starts pushing you around.

      Hanging that arm down under the rifle, with a tight loop sling, and pressing the elbow into the body may cause you to shift your NPOA to where you are standing with your body facing almost 90 degrees?away from the target, instead of a more normal 45 degrees, but I've had good results with that too...

     Now, about righties shifting right to left in rapid fire: the advice comes from the Marine Rifle Team, specifically in relation to the 40 rds/minute Infantry Team match. Don't remember why they said it works that way, if they say at all, but been doing it for years with pretty decent results at the RWVA speed shoot against the popups...


HABCAN
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     Re: Shooting Tips
<< Reply #5 on: December 14, 2005, 03:55:38 PM >> Quote 

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'Trigger' elbow 'way up, muzzle up about 75 degrees, ~15degrees to that side. Pull butt into formed shoulder pocket. Keeping elbow as high as possible to retain butt in that pocket during repeat shots, draw down to POA. I always try to keep 'support' elbow pushed as far BEYOND the rifle centerline as possible. That way the weight of the rifle locks on bones and no muscle is involved holding it up. (Try shooting Metallic Silhouette rules, without a sling at 500m. NPOA is EVERYTHING, so pay attention to position of the feet!)

Righties track more easily right to left just as in shotgun-shooting trap. I'm a lefty, so I do opposite, left to right. You can pull more smoothly than you can push, and further, without disturbing the 'gun-turret' you formed above your waist.

But, what do I know, although it has worked for me for a few decades.


Atlas Shrug
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    Re: Shooting Tips
<< Reply #6 on: December 14, 2005, 04:01:16 PM >> Quote 

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Quote from: Guilford on December 14, 2005, 09:50:43 AM
Shooting from right to left lets you swing the rifle more into your body, as Believer said into a more stable position.

-Guilford


I'll buy that.  It's how I've always shot as well.  It's natural, it tends to follow any recoil influenced "opening up" of your position, and as Fred noted gets the Marine Seal of Approval!  Works for me!

Fred also brings up another point that all positions are not created equal when it comes to the wind blowing not just the bullet, but your position.  That can be a big issue, especially when you are exposed on a field or in general gusty conditions.

Now if I can just get around to doing some testing on standing with and without the sling.  I've never used it offhand and I can see how it could help in some cases.....Gotta proove it to myself first, though.  So many techniques to test, so little range time....(which is why I've had pretty much a different rifle and/or configuration EVERY time I've shot at RWVA.  One of these days I'll shoot the same setup twice...).




wildman
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     Re: Shooting Tips
<< Reply #7 on: December 15, 2005, 06:51:59 AM >> Quote 

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I quit using the sling in the standing position because it's not allowed in HP shootin'. We shoot the standing position when we are in a hurry and don't have time to aquire a more stable position. Remember the old saying, "We fight the way we train," or is the other way around?   


Guilford
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    Re: Shooting Tips
<< Reply #8 on: December 15, 2005, 07:36:04 AM >> Quote 

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Quote from: wildman on December 15, 2005, 06:51:59 AM
I quit using the sling in the standing position because it's not allowed in HP shootin'. We shoot the standing position when we are in a hurry and don't have time to aquire a more stable position. Remember the old saying, "We fight the way we train," or is the other way around?


My standing highpower position is not very realistic for field conditions even tho I don't use a sling.  Ever shoot the standing stage with snap shots & no sling? 

Tip #4:  In pistol shooting, especially revolver, you are taught to get as high a grip as possible on the frame for a number of good reasons, but getting a high grip on the rifle makes it easy for your trigger finger to "drag wood".  Experiment with a hold further back allowing only the trigger finger pad to to touch the trigger. 

-Guilford


fred
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       Re: Shooting Tips
<< Reply #9 on: January 11, 2006, 12:49:18 PM >> Quote 

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     Guys, when we start field shooting, then we deal with the real world variables.

     And the standing position you select, and how steady you choose to be (since the 'steadier' standing positions usually take a little more time to get into) is related to how much time you have to take the shot, how close the target is (which affects not only time - think a short-range threat - but also the accuracy requirement - an up-close target is usually big in MOA), and how bad the wind may be playing with you.

     For some reason, "wind" in talking about shooting is automatically assumed to be the wind effect on the flight of your bullet.

     But in the standing position, wind impact on your body is orders of magnitude greater in terms of the displacement of the shot on the target.

     I was once at Camp Perry, trying to shoot standing at 200 yards in a windstorm. And I, and everyone along the line, so far as I could tell, were there in a national competition without the slightest experience in dealing with a wind like that from the standing position. (Remember the "so far as I could tell" - the uncomplaining ones from Wyoming probably never noticed anything out of the ordinary )

     And people that would ordinarily have no trouble hitting a grapefruit at 200 yards standing were often blown off the target!

      The only instruction on shooting standing in the wind that I've seen is Townsend Whelen's stuff from the turn of the last century. He reccos what some shooters call the 'shotgun' hold - and what Fred regards as the normal way of shooting standing - forward arm out, not up next to the chest, and a firm grip, and muscles all over your body locked (this last in the wind, only; otherwise, as in no wind, you are relaxed). With a hasty sling, at best.

      Maybe someone's seen some later advice - if so, let's hear it!

     For a snap shot on an up-close target, especially a surprise target, you wouldn't worry about a sling, just shoulder the rifle and fire the shot. Chances'll be 10 MOA will do more than enough, and the shot will work fine. Out to 200, a torso is 10 MOA, but we're talking out to 100 or so yards...

     At the Wyoming shoot last summer, the 'snap-fire' exercise was a "12" Ivan (head/shoulders) exposed for 2 seconds, 100 yards away. You started from 'low-ready' position, butt in shoulder, muzzle pointing down. The wind was gusting up to 35-40. (I love Wyoming!  ) When the target appeared, you raised the rifle quickly and fired the shot. (For some reason, Lady Luck smiled on Fred, and he won this event with a borrowed rifle, beating his good friend Boston with his tricked-out rifle - sorry to be a name-dropping braggard, don't do it often...  but still feel good about doing it this once.)

     For a more distant target, or a non-surprise target, the sling would be a useful aid to accuracy, either the hasty sling or the faster hasty-hasty sling (with both hands on the rifle, flip the rifle to swing the sling out to the side and catch on your forward elbow - works as good as a hasty sling, but you don't have to take your hand off the rifle to 'sling up').

     In the field, you may one day have to take a shot at a target 500 yards away, and the only way you can get a clear shot - is to stand! No problem. As a rifleman, you should expect yourself to do 4 MOA standing. So crank up your sights, aim dead-on, and fire a good shot. As a Rifleman, you can do it.

    But note that the longer-range target requires more accuracy. You can't get by with the 'quick and dirty' 10 MOA of the close target. So you take more pains in making the shot.

     If you have time, and long-ways-away targets can give you more time, you can do a regular 'sling-up' and fire as if you were on the 25m firing line, and the target was the Stage 1 AQT - or more accurately, the "V"-ring of the target...

     Fast and up-close: forget the sling (unless already slinged-up) raise the rifle, and fire the shot.

     More time and further off: Speed is second to accuracy - the threat is less, if not minimal, and the target is small in MOA. Rifleman-accuracy skills come into play...

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LUCKY MAN
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    Re: Shooting Tips
<< Reply #10 on: April 6, 2006, 09:15:35 PM >> Quote 

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Just wanted to give my .02 on standing. When I shoot from standing I generally have a window of time that lasts about 15 sec. where I am capable of a really good shot. So in order to maximise my stable shooting time I will do the following. First I place the bottom of the butt of the rifle just inside th ball of my shoulder (I am skiiny and also shoot an ar, wouldnt know what to do with a big stable body ) I allow the side of the rifle butt to lay flat against my chest and turn the ejection port towards the target. This places my supprt hand on my left pants pocket and my firing hand just beneath my right peck. From here I can support the rifle mostly with friction on my body. When ready is called on the line I do not waste my precious time window and first really good shots waiting for the line to go hot, we have plenty of time on standing. When the fire command is given, I quickly but smothly take a full breath of air, and simultaniously raise the rifle up rotatating it into the pocket of my shoulder (the top of the rifle butt will stick up from your shoulder a bit.) From here we only have about 15 seconds (perhaps longer for you relly good riflemen out there ) before my muscles start to move around a little and o2 starts to trail off a little. First I like to see my target # on the way up (through my sights) I continue up passing my target just a little, at this point I stop taking in air and hold. Next I take the first stage out of my trigger and begin lowering my elevation by slowly letting out my air. When you stop your front post on the bottom of your target you should be about 5 sec into the shot. Now we simply increase pressure when the shot looks good and wait when the shot dosn't. When the sight pic is perfect again steadily increase pressure, if I run out of air and start to wobble I lower the rifle, take a breath, let it out and then start again. Idealy it should all be over in about 8 seconds. Always take the time to call the shot and hold the trigger to the rear. Your job is not done untill you feel the trigger reset. (This is also a great time to detect malfunctions or empty guns  as the trigger wont reset if the bolt hasnt gone forward). Now we lower the rifle take 2 breaths and then repeat. This will allow you to achieve a great rythem and have plenty of time that if you need to you can decide not to take several shots that would be poor shots. All of this is just to maximise the time that you are spending holding the rifle up, and as a side benifit it will make you a faster shooter in general.

This is just what works for me and may be worth a try, I generally score well, but Im sure there are plenty of folks out there with different ways that probably work just as well if not better.

Thanks for taking the time to read this long post.
Lucky